Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 00:11:11 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson Message-ID: <20001125001110.A1891@buffy.local> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:39:59AM -0900, Dee McKinney wrote:

Corvin Russell wrote:

...

Has anyone tried Balsa or Mahogany? I can't help but think that this is one case where the OSS development model has not worked. We have a lot of half-baked loaves when for the same effort we probably could have had a loaf of bread if people has just cooperated... but not to be pessimistic, perhaps Balsa and Mahogany are good? Any reports?

Oh, I so agree with this !

Cliff

Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:39:12 -0600 From: Gary Message-Id: <20001124223912.224db2d6.medmanks@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:39:59 -0900 (AKST) Dee McKinney = DM> put this forth: DM> Corvin Russell wrote: DM> > Has anyone tried Balsa or Mahogany? I can't help but think that this DM> > is one case where the OSS development model has not worked. We have a DM> > lot of half-baked loaves when for the same effort we probably could DM> > have had a loaf of bread if people has just cooperated... but not to DM> > be pessimistic, perhaps Balsa and Mahogany are good? Any reports? There is a new GTK one called Sylpheed in active development. Very similar to Winders Becky. It is *very* fast, good filtering, mulitple POP accounts, can use your own editor - uses only MH style mail. I use it and Mutt. Check it out on freshmeat, get in the new English egroup, author is a nice college student in Japan, very amenable to implementing your ideas, etc. -- Best regards, Gary

From: "W.D.McKinney" Message-Id: <200011242057.eAOKveS00523@wdm.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:57:39 -0900 (AKST) Subject: Re[4]: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... Michael Perry wrote:

So, in the absence of mailers which approach the functionality of PMMail and BAT, I decided awhile ago to just settle on mutt. Now Im glad. I can reach my email in a lot of ways when I travel.

Ishmail has been my gui mail client for awhile. I use MH for mail and I can ssh into my box and it's just fine. Pine works great for me also. Regards /Dee

Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:28:00 -0600 From: Gary Message-Id: <20001124232800.34e0310f.medmanks@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:53:01 -0800 Michael Perry = MP> put this forth: MP> Quoting Gary on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 10:39:12PM -0600: MP> > On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:39:59 -0900 (AKST) MP> > Dee McKinney = DM> put this forth:

...

DM> Corvin Russell wrote: DM> > Has anyone tried Balsa or Mahogany? I can't help but think that this DM> > is one case where the OSS development model has not worked. We have a DM> > lot of half-baked loaves when for the same effort we probably could DM> > have had a loaf of bread if people has just cooperated... but not to DM> > be pessimistic, perhaps Balsa and Mahogany are good? Any reports?

...

GG> There is a new GTK one called Sylpheed in active development. Very GG> similar to Winders Becky. It is *very* fast, good filtering, mulitple POP GG> accounts, can

MP> One GUI mailer that I used for awhile was CSCmail and now if you visit the MP> skins site for gkrellm (cannot remember url now), they have spun off CSCmail MP> into a mailer called pronto. Yep, Pronto is "heavy" and bulky now. MP> Thats one of the several reasons I don't use GUI mailers. Other reasons are MP> when I first started looking at them, I really liked where balsa was going. MP> However, compared to a few other email programs I have used like PMMail on MP> OS/2 and the BAT on NT, the GUI mailers are rather lacking. With mutt and MP> some understanding of either sendmail or exim, I can do a lot with how I MP> handle email. Procmail does not hurt either :-) I have been using The Bat! on Winders for over a year, and am still on the beta list. The authors are giving consideration to porting it over to Linux after V2 comes out, and when they can use Borlands' ... (can't think now, tired), well Borland's ahhh Delphi, when that gets ported over to Linux. They program in Delphi. MP> One of the nice and transparent things that PMMail did was to manage MP> different accounts in a very easy manner. Each set of folders could have MP> dedicated account settings with different pop and smtp servers, etc. Same MP> with the BAT. Each acocunt you have set up, or actually each addess in the address book can have *individual* templates for send, forward, reply, reply to all, etc. customed designed by you if you want, with over 70 variables and you can use regex. Can also setup on the fly templates with variables. Very powerful stuff for Winders MUA. However, as of Monday, I am out of Winders totally! TB! would be a great MUA in Linux. MP> So, in the absence of mailers which approach the functionality of PMMail and MP> BAT, I decided awhile ago to just settle on mutt. Now Im glad. I can reach MP> my email in a lot of ways when I travel. Michael, don't get me wrong. Mutt is my MUA of choice. My muttrc is set up with many color choices, GPG, and a 100 other hooks. You're right on about procmail, I wouldn't be without it. I have most of my mail sorted to MH style with piping rcvstore and locks, and one or two with just mbox types. I have also used EXMH which is an excellent mailer. The beauty of Linux is that there are so many choices, and all can read the same format. -- Best regards, Gary

From: Jethro Cramp Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:10:44 +0000 Message-Id: <0011242210440E.00704@zeus> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Friday 24 November 2000 9:30 pm, Corvin Russell wrote:

Has anyone tried Balsa or Mahogany? I can't help but think that this is one case where the OSS development model has not worked. We have a lot of half-baked loaves when for the same effort we probably could have had a loaf of bread if people has just cooperated... but not to be pessimistic, perhaps Balsa and Mahogany are good? Any reports?

I can't help agreeing with you. Having used Outlook in all it's guises since inbox, everything that I've tried on Liniux falls short. The only client that I've used and had any respect for at all is CSCmail. Although because it's Gtk based I can't used copy - paste in kde and that alone kills it for me. I tried TradeClient a few months back and although then it was feature sparse I hear from several other lists that it's development is coming along nicely. In the meantime I use Kmail 1.99 and just pray that it will realise it's potential sometime soon, or that Magellan one day gets completed. Jethro

From: Jethro Cramp Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:25:55 +0000 Message-Id: <00112620255503.00668@zeus> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail....

I too have been using outlook and looking for a replacement. I have all the other applications I use running on the linux side but still boot NT to get my mail.

I did get this partially working although I don't remember exactly how I did it. I think I first transferred all my e-mails into netscape on Windows (if you've got big pst files, of several 100MB like I did make sure you've got plenty of spare hard disk space). Then I copied the files into netscape under Linux. From there follow the instructions in the Kmail manual. Jethro -- ------------------------------------------------------- Linux, Windows, DOS. Otherwise known as: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly -------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:58:20 -0600 From: Gary Message-ID: <20001127175820.A1274@linux.local> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:15:15AM +0100 or thereabouts, Roy G. Culley wrote:

Doesn't anyone else use nmh+exmh+procmail? exmh may not be the prettiest of MUA's but it does just about everything and is very configurable. In fact as it is written in tcl/tk it is easy to hack around with the source.

I have used exmh in the past, and you are right, it is a class act, and very configurable indeed, including citations. It will do just about anything, although I found their PGP/GPG to be a bit old fashioned, in the way they handle it, as really PGP 2.x and 5 are covered, but not 6.x, if I remember. . I have not set it up in a long time, but with the patches and version 2.2, it is really good - a long learning curve for the initiated though. It also supports good maintenence of MH directories, i.e. packing, ,and features and is well supported. -- Best regards, Gary

From: "Koos Pol" Date: 28 Nov 2000 10:30:07 CET Message-Id: <20001128093008.D9BE5828D@bitbucket.extern.uniface.nl> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail.... On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:21:15 -0500, Tim Duggan wrote: | Hi, | | Just to throw some more wood on the fire (sorry), I found this over | the weekend. | http://spruce.sourceforge.net/ | I'm planning on compiling the stable version tonight if I get a | chance. Any experiences with it here? | | Later | Tim <p>Long ago I dumped it due to lack of options. I am not familiar with it's current status. In the meantime you may want to try Pronto http://www.muhri.net It's a Perl/GTK app. Very slick. If you want you can store you emails in a MySQL database which makes it lightning fast! Filters can be based om Perl regex'es... So it is very powerfull. The only thing missing is IMAP support. But if you connect with a local Pronto client to a remote MySQL database, you have effectively circumvented this problem. (if you stick with Pronto, that is) If you didn't catch the plug yet, I am very pleased with it :-) Koos Pol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S.C. Pol T: +31 20 3116122 Systems Administrator F: +31 20 3116200 Compuware Europe B.V. E: koos_pol@nl.compuware.com Amsterdam PGP public key available

Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:17:11 -0500 From: Corvin Russell Message-ID: <20001125161711.A1220@raven.unknowing.org> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up So, summing up: There seems to be a consensus that despite the proliferation of clients, there is no robust GUI MUA that can compete with Outlook, Outlook Express, or Eudora. Users who like the functionality of those programs are not going to be impressed by the options on offer for Linux. I don't suggest that it should be our 'mission' to convert people to linux, but there are undeniable benefits (and annoyances) that will come with a larger user base. To the extent that it is desirable (for companies like SuSE e.g.) that more people switch, it is a hard sell to persuade people that hey, all they really need is Mutt (or MUA x), which looks like a 'throwback to DOS days,' as a Mac user commented on my screenshots. The initial PITA configuring Mutt is certainly a deterrent to its adoption. I use Mutt and like it very much, and I don't think I'll be switching soon... it does what I want it to, and no more than I want it to. But there are people who use linux who miss their GUI mail readers. A friend using Linux keeps around his Mac OS for the following reasons: Eudora, anti-aliased font display, and BBEdit. I suspect that a lot of people like the polish available in the main commercial OS's. KDE is getting to that level of polish, but there are still gaping lacunae. Perhaps someone at SuSE could note the volume of response to this issue and the relative consensus on it. It seems it would be in everyone's interest if the linux companies created a joint project to make a good email client -- or just funded one of the existing projects so that it could get the job done. Even OSS benefits from good project management and clear goals, as SuSE has shown us. Best, Corvin -- Corvin Russell

Message-ID: <3A208457.5F11B8BF@CFFtechnologies.com> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:32:39 -0600 From: Avi Schwartz Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up Niels Stenhoj wrote:

Right now, I'm using KMail belonging to the KDE2 package despite running KDE1. It works fine, almost as good as Netscape Messenger in Windoze.

Not quite. I just wanted to try KMail out and found that it currently does not support IMAP which makes it useless for me. 8-( Avi -- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux

Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:32:55 -0800 From: Michael Perry Message-ID: <20001125203255.A6947@tsoft.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up Quoting Timothy R. Butler on Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 10:11:45PM -0600:

...

Right now, I'm using KMail belonging to the KDE2 package despite running KDE1. It works fine, almost as good as Netscape Messenger in Windoze. I miss the possibility of sending BCC's. Kmail might be THE project you are asking for. For those who are OE fans, of course, it might be a good idea to establish a project of making an LX-OE.

In general many refrain from turning to Linux, because Linux doesn't have IE and OE. IMHO, the browser issue is bundled with the mail client issue. Netscape seems to be incapacitated regarding producing obedient code. The browser works fine until Messenger is set up. After that it's useless on a machine with a dial up connection charged per minute.

I agree that Kmail might be THE project. Kmail for KDE 2.0 seems to have much - although not quite all of - the polish in Outlook. When bundled with the rest of the KDE suite, it's quite nice. If they were to add a Outlook Today like screen that took data from both Kmail and KOrganizer, it would be nearly perfect. It might not be quite there yet - but it certainly does seem to be the e-mail client that would most likely be equal to a Windows/Mac client.

-Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

After using kmail with kde2, it is pretty slick. I don't see it competing with the likes of an evolution though. Evolution will come out of the box with all the components like mail, scheduling, contacts. In fact, it already does. I think evolution is "the project" to watch. Kmail would need to have integration done with a PIM/contact manager. Evolution already is doing that. It does html email or graphics embedding already. Does multiple mail accounts (I think), does contact management and time management already. I have heard that folks are already considering doing evolution servers to manage a group's time. KDE is gonna have to go a distance to come up with what the Helixcode team will release in evolution. Combine that with Nautilus and its a complete story. -- Michael Perry mperry@tsoft.com ------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:24:26 -0800 From: Michael Perry Message-ID: <20001125142426.A3110@tsoft.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up Quoting Corvin Russell on Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 04:17:11PM -0500:

So, summing up:

There seems to be a consensus that despite the proliferation of clients, there is no robust GUI MUA that can compete with Outlook, Outlook Express, or Eudora. Users who like the functionality of those programs are not going to be impressed by the options on offer for Linux.

I don't suggest that it should be our 'mission' to convert people to linux, but there are undeniable benefits (and annoyances) that will come with a larger user base. To the extent that it is desirable (for companies like SuSE e.g.) that more people switch, it is a hard sell to persuade people that hey, all they really need is Mutt (or MUA x), which looks like a 'throwback to DOS days,' as a Mac user commented on my screenshots. The initial PITA configuring Mutt is certainly a deterrent to its adoption. I use Mutt and like it very much, and I don't think I'll be switching soon... it does what I want it to, and no more than I want it to. But there are people who use linux who miss their GUI mail readers. A friend using Linux keeps around his Mac OS for the following reasons: Eudora, anti-aliased font display, and BBEdit. I suspect that a lot of people like the polish available in the main commercial OS's. KDE is getting to that level of polish, but there are still gaping lacunae.

Perhaps someone at SuSE could note the volume of response to this issue and the relative consensus on it. It seems it would be in everyone's interest if the linux companies created a joint project to make a good email client -- or just funded one of the existing projects so that it could get the job done. Even OSS benefits from good project management and clear goals, as SuSE has shown us.

Best,

Corvin

-- Corvin Russell

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

I just recently saw evolution running on a debian woody system at work. It looked pretty much like outlook with the menu bars, etc. All in all, mutt configuration is worth about what you put into it. I used outlook for some years and never cared for it. Of course, I was an Os/2 user before Linux so I tended to use clients like PMmail or Mr2 ice. My favorite NT/98 mailer is BAT!. It does what it needs to do and then some. I don't think, speaking purely personally, that I want another mailer like Outlook for myself. If I wanted one, I would probably start looking at where evolution is going. Then again, I use elm and pine before mutt. If you want one to do a combination of tasks, perhaps evolution from helixcode combined with nautilus from eazel is the way to go. I have seen a pretty functional version of evolution these days. Just beware, it does take a bit o'work to get it down. That is, unless you use debian. If you use debian, you just add a line to your /etc/apt/sources.list and have apt-get do all the hard work. There is a website which will do custom muttrc files for you for up to version 1.2.5 I believe. I have never tried one since I keep a few different ones around and then I compare them to see what each does. If people are looking for a combined contact management, emailer, PIM, thing; I believe that evolution will be the one. I am not looking for those things. I like my pie cut in separate pieces. Like my son says, "don't mix all that food together on one plate" :-). I can definitely understand why people would want this though. I admit to use a pocketpc though and not a palm or visor to keep my calender; which means I need a windows 98 system to synch up to. That's my own belief though; that you use what you have to or want to to get something done. I don't like the sense of the combination offerings though. So I probably will not use evolution because I prefer the way I have of doing things. -- Michael Perry mperry@tsoft.com ------------------

From: Jonathan Drews Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:43:57 -0600 Message-Id: <00112601230500.02745@linux> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up

Word processing is another application that needs looking at.. but that is off-topic here I guess :)

Keep on rocking, this is an important thread, so I hope it is being heard :)

Cliff

As for word processors, Abiword is just terrific. Even though it is beta software, I think it works extremely well. The real benefit to Abiword is that it is very easy to insert subscripts, superscripts and mathematical symbols, a must for technical reports. MS Word is very clumsy in this respect. It is not as good as Abi. To be sure, Kword also has this feature and once the stability issues are resolved it too will be a valuable WP. I have used Corel WP, Star Office and Applix and I must say they are not as good, nor as intuitive, as the open source word processors. For starters both Corel WP and Applix have buggy mathematical formula frames. Star Offices formula frame, while not buggy, is not pleasant to work with; too many sub menus to plow through. In contrast Kword and Abiword are very easy to learn and master. I don't want to read an entire book on how to operate my editor. I have more important things to do. If I am going to undertake any detailed study of editors it would be of VI or Emacs. The GUI ones are supposed to be intuitive. Finally IMHO, I don't want my Linux software to emulate Microsoft Windows. I want it to be distinct with it's own methods that are adapted to extract maximum benefit from the UNIX operating system. A case in point is the inclusion of Visual Basic in Helix Gnome. It makes sense that Microsoft uses VB because Basic was a component of Microsoft products back in the days of DOS. In a similar way, it makes sense to use C, C++ or, in the case of Kspread macros, Python as the preferred macro language in Linux.

Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001128125503.00a4aa80@mail.casaccia.enea.it> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:38:42 +0100 From: Fabrizio Poggi Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up At 07.07 26/11/00 +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: <p>>Word processing is another application that needs looking at.. but that

is off-topic here I guess :)

Keep on rocking, this is an important thread, so I hope it is being heard :)

[speculative] Not at all out off-topic. In these points (and few others) we have all. Mutt it seems me powerful and compliant and I don't need anymore. As Pine (quite easy). The other solutions seems to be now a little bit on-the-edge, but don't require to hack on termcap for open with lynx the deprecated html-formatted mail. Are we in needing of a X application capable to inherit the power (and stability) of Mutt? I expect something from Evolution or the future releases of Kmail and to find an agreement to elect the new Mail Client for the next ten years? We need also a free, powerful wordprocessor. Or a great application that can convert (or maybe just read) and keep close distance to the running MS Word versions, and all the crazyness of his document formats; in my opinion Word-Of-The-Hell has become a standard. All the people I work with, use Word2000 in advanced way. And I still need the Windows section with Office put in:(. Best Regards, Fabrizio

Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:00:50 +0100 (CET) From: Ole Kofoed Hansen Message-ID: Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Jerry Kreps wrote:

Ok, I give up. Your msg content type is as noted:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I've looked for control characters that would highlight text in red but find none. How are you guys doing that in ascii text msgs? JLK

Is that something we all are doing or just a few of us? If we are all doing it, did you change to KMail version 1.1.99 recently? Perhaps just from an older version. I have the hunch, that it might actually be KMail that is doing it, and not the people on the list. If there is colored text in this message, it has to be KMail, because Pine does not use colors in outgoing mail. Regards Ole

From: Jerry Kreps Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:29:38 -0600 Message-Id: <00112818293801.28235@JLKreps> Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up Ole, You have to be right! I've switched to KDE2 and it's version of KMail. However, I only noticed it today, not that it didn't occur previously. What I have done is recompile Qt.2.2.1 with ALL graphics options activated. I'll bet that is what triggered the new behavior. JLK On Tuesday 28 November 2000 17:00, Ole Kofoed Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Jerry Kreps wrote:

...

Ok, I give up. Your msg content type is as noted:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I've looked for control characters that would highlight text in red but find none. How are you guys doing that in ascii text msgs? JLK

Is that something we all are doing or just a few of us? If we are all doing it, did you change to KMail version 1.1.99 recently? Perhaps just from an older version.

I have the hunch, that it might actually be KMail that is doing it, and not the people on the list.

If there is colored text in this message, it has to be KMail, because Pine does not use colors in outgoing mail.

Regards

Ole

-- Scientific theories, according to Sir Karl Popper, can be "falsified," or proven wrong, by experiment. Unscientific theories -Marxist dialectical history and Freudian psychology were Popper's favorites- are formed in such a way that they cannot be falsified by data.

Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001130192445.00a34f00@mail.casaccia.enea.it> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:55:58 +0100 From: Fabrizio Poggi Subject: Re: [SLE] Balsa, mahogany, kmail...Summing up At 15.53 29/11/00 +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: Hi Cliff,

There is no doubt mutt is a very superior piece of software. For quick handling of email it is a joy. But I prefer to use a gui for writing new emails (as opposed to replying to them) and to organise my mail in general. So I use Kmail2, apart from it's bizarre behaviour under certain circumstances it seems to me to be pretty good. (I intend to post about this bizarreness when I can find out how to describe it in words!)

...Maybe is not really easy&handly, must agree. Do so: "What is the your dream in matter of mail clients?". "Something like Mutt. But in a handly X environment!". <p>>Maybe the search for a single solution is doomed to failure ?

As the author of mutt says (apologies if quote is inexact)

"All mail programs suck; this one just sucks less"

Yes. I remember something like "All mail clients sucks; Mutt sucks less"; (it is not really crucial:) --- there's somebody in list that can remember the exact phrase of the hell? Please, help to leave us the doubt!!). However, it's right your view: maybe it's better have more than just one solution and in a free context it is naturally and mandatory at all to have multiple choices (the good and the bad of the free context)...Something of my primary idea remains to me: we need something strong, in X, for the next years. Best Regards:), <p>Fabrizio