* David C. Rankin [07-29-17 20:53]:

On 07/29/2017 06:31 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

The latest updates to the system want to install two Noto emoji fonts. That annoys me because I can't see ever wanting any emoji font, let alone a google one, let alone two of the bl**d things.

So YaST updater tells me that the fonts are 'recommended' by a 'security' update to chromium. WTF!

So I would like to tell YaST not to install those recommendations, but I can't figure out how to do it.

I second this concern,

It seems yast is no longer allowing you to select the packages you require, rather it is giving you packages it thinks you might want.

This is an old, but ongoing complaint. Why would yast (and by implication, the packagers) take it upon themselves to load unwanted software? (the emoji fonts are a perfect example) Yes, there will always be some stray dependencies, but they have grown like weeds in a vacant lot lately.

We have got to find a smarter way to package opensuse so that every LOCALE under the sun isn't enabled by default and avoid installing every corresponding font variant to support every LOCALE by default.

Example:

opensuse default (Leap 42.2)

$ locale -a | wc -l 473

archlinux (user set as part of install)

$ locale -a | wc -l 3

Why, oh why, do we set 473 locales by default??

Yes, I get we want opensuse to run everywhere with a default install, but this results in a system, and a packaging and dependency mindset, that we need to fill the system with all needed packages to support all 473 locals (including font variants). That's just nuts and it results in a whole lot of unwanted software being installed.

Instead, I would propose having the user choose a Primary and any Secondary locales needed, at the beginning of the install, generate the locales with locale-gen and then only install what is required for the chosen locales (which on my last check doesn't include a territory called 'Emojope' where they speak Emoji)

If a package recommends 'emoji' that should be where it stops, unless the user takes the affirmative step of saying "Yes, I want that recommendation on my system." It should not default to "You are going to take all these recommended packages unless you find the magic setting that allows you to say No."

Let's not let opensuse look like a vacant lot.

zypper -v in --no-recommends <package> but that is not YaST -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Dave Howorth [07-30-17 08:45]:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:23:28 -0400 Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]

...

zypper -v in --no-recommends <package>

but that is not YaST

Indeed it is not, and neither is it sensible for updating.

it certainly is, and is the *most* sensible. how can you even say it is not sensible when you didn't even know about it or didn't consider it first? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 09:13:34 -0400 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Dave Howorth [07-30-17 08:45]:

...

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:23:28 -0400 Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]

...

zypper -v in --no-recommends <package>

but that is not YaST

Indeed it is not, and neither is it sensible for updating.

it certainly is, and is the *most* sensible. how can you even say it is not sensible when you didn't even know about it or didn't consider it first?

What makes you think I didn't know about it? Or that I didn't consider it? That command only updates one package, which is not what I was trying to do, and so is not sensible for the purpose. But I don't want to use the CLI. YaST is one of the best parts of openSUSE IMHO, and I want to use that for the purposes it is designed for. But in this case I believe that YaST's behaviour could be improved (flag that the auto-selected packages are actually recommendations; offer a choice to not install the recommendations rather than aborting the update or accepting the recommendation) and certainly its documentation leaves room for improvement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/30/2017 09:25 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:

But in this case I believe that YaST's behaviour could be improved (flag that the auto-selected packages are actually recommendations; offer a choice to not install the recommendations

Or, alternativly, you could use the options already built into Yast to do ignore recommended packages. Look around. Its there, -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Dave Howorth [07-30-17 19:19]:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 14:43:40 -0700 John Andersen wrote:

...

On 07/30/2017 09:25 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

But in this case I believe that YaST's behaviour could be improved (flag that the auto-selected packages are actually recommendations; offer a choice to not install the recommendations

Or, alternativly, you could use the options already built into Yast to do ignore recommended packages. Look around. Its there,

You don't bother with maintaining threads do you?

The point is that YaST offers a crippled dialog box in this situation. It should offer the choice in the dialog box, IMHO. Users shouldn't have to go chasing around to find facilities they don't even know exists.

It's poor UI design.

guess it's time for you to file an enhancement or bug request explaining what should be, or the dev's may never know about it. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/29/2017 06:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

If a package recommends 'emoji' that should be where it stops, unless the user takes the affirmative step of saying "Yes, I want that recommendation on my system." It should not default to "You are going to take all these recommended packages unless you find the magic setting that allows you to say No."

Let's not let opensuse look like a vacant lot. zypper -v in --no-recommends <package>

but that is not YaST

Late to this party, but just in case no one mentioned it there is an option under Yast Menu Dependencies to ignore recommended packages. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/07/17 08:51 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 07/29/2017 06:31 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

The latest updates to the system want to install two Noto emoji fonts. That annoys me because I can't see ever wanting any emoji font, let alone a google one, let alone two of the bl**d things.

+ 10^GOOGLE :-)

...

So YaST updater tells me that the fonts are 'recommended' by a 'security' update to chromium. WTF!

Indeed. But then again, I agree with Patrick and never use Yast for updates. I have my issues with zypper, but that's a separate matter.

...

So I would like to tell YaST not to install those recommendations, but I can't figure out how to do it.

I second this concern,

It seems yast is no longer allowing you to select the packages you require, rather it is giving you packages it thinks you might want.

This is an old, but ongoing complaint. Why would yast (and by implication, the packagers) take it upon themselves to load unwanted software? (the emoji fonts are a perfect example) Yes, there will always be some stray dependencies, but they have grown like weeds in a vacant lot lately.

It is trend though the development of technology the 'dumbing down' of user interfaces, be it the control panel of a car to the replacements of the CLI with the GUI. Along the way there is a 'learned disability'. http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137 The issue isn't so much the Windows/Linux gulf as the principle of learning a single interface, and dumbed one at that, vs the principles that are hidden behind it (and often inaccessible though it).

We have got to find a smarter way to package opensuse so that every LOCALE under the sun isn't enabled by default and avoid installing every corresponding font variant to support every LOCALE by default.

While relevant, this is just one aspect of the issue with packaging. Dependencies and bundling. At one time something as simple as TAR was forcibly bundled with the magnetic tape control software. TAR is useful in its own right for bundling prior to backup, and many of us were using other backup media. Why was MT being forced on us? It was the result of a very specific packaging and dependency mindset.

Yes, I get we want opensuse to run everywhere with a default install, but this results in a system, and a packaging and dependency mindset, that we need to fill the system with all needed packages to support all 473 locals (including font variants). That's just nuts and it results in a whole lot of unwanted software being installed.

Which is why we have tools like "Bleachbit". But even that only cleans out the unwanted localizations until the next update.

Instead, I would propose having the user choose a Primary and any Secondary locales needed, at the beginning of the install, generate the locales with locale-gen and then only install what is required for the chosen locales (which on my last check doesn't include a territory called 'Emojope' where they speak Emoji)

Yes, two locales is nice for us in Kanukistaniland, here in what was the GWN before global warming and is now 'The Fertile Crescent of the West". We use both US and British spelling, and occasionally both grammars and expression. (heck, we can laugh at both nations and have politicians who are 'funny ha-ha' rather that 'funny in the head' or 'funny outrageous'. perhaps we need a font for all that?)

If a package recommends 'emoji' that should be where it stops, unless the user takes the affirmative step of saying "Yes, I want that recommendation on my system." It should not default to "You are going to take all these recommended packages unless you find the magic setting that allows you to say No."

I agree, that way round makes more sense. These are, after all, 'recommendation'. We had a court case here in Canada a few years ago where the cable TV companies were bundling 'extras' that were 'extra charge options' that you got (usually without prior notification) unless you were savvy enough to drill down on the contract before hand and say "HECK NO! I don't want those so-called options!@ take them out!". The courts decided that options are options. The me, and it seems to David as well, the same reasoning applies to recommendations. They are an offer that you should be able to refuse UNLESS YOU EXPLICITLY REQUEST. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 30/07/17 08:53 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 07/30/2017 08:42 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

We had a court case here in Canada a few years ago where the cable TV companies were bundling 'extras' that were 'extra charge options'

Is Bell Canada still charging for Touch Tone? For many years they did, even though you couldn't get a phone line without it.

Yes, I remember that. I had a handset that had a switch to control between pulse or tone dialling so I tried to get the tone option removed, and they wouldn't, so I changed to Sprint Canada, and then they got bought by Rogers. After getting fed up with Rogers upping the price of a single phone line, messing with the billing, screwing yp their web site so I couln't make payments there since I don't use the particular version of MS Internet Explorer (It absolutely wouldn't work with Firefox or any of the browser I had on my portable devices and when I showed the screen-dumps to the their staff they said they couldn't do anything except forward the complain, so of course NOTING HAPPENED). So I quite. I now use a VOIP service out of Montreal that costs less than one sixth that of Rogers and offers a lot more. (They run an Asterisk based system and offer a web interface to some of its user-level functions.)

I remember many years ago, auto manufacturers charging extra for "mandatory options".

*sigh* And how many were actually safety features rather than frivolities? David makes a good case for using Archlinux instead of openSUSE. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op zondag 30 juli 2017 14:53:38 CEST schreef James Knott:

On 07/30/2017 08:42 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

We had a court case here in Canada a few years ago where the cable TV companies were bundling 'extras' that were 'extra charge options'

Is Bell Canada still charging for Touch Tone? For many years they did, even though you couldn't get a phone line without it.

I remember many years ago, auto manufacturers charging extra for "mandatory options". Can we please keep this on-topic, or at least mark it as OT.

-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jul 30, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-07-30 03:08, Felix Miata wrote:

...

NAICT, most openSUSE packagers seem to think their preferences for optional packages would better be required, thus somehow we mostly get full bloat installations even without strict dependencies in place - unless we use zypp.conf and set

solver.onlyRequires = true

YaST, Software Module, Dependencies Menu, "Install recommended packages", untick.

Bless you. Especially if I can get to that during a clean install so that "texlive" doesn't end up taking 2/3 of the time. Michael -- Michael Fischer michael@visv.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 31, Felix Miata wrote:

Michael Fischer composed on 2017-07-31 15:06 (UTC-0400):

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

NAICT, most openSUSE packagers seem to think their preferences for optional packages would better be required, thus somehow we mostly get full bloat installations even without strict dependencies in place - unless we use zypp.conf and set

...

...

...

solver.onlyRequires = true

...

...

YaST, Software Module, Dependencies Menu, "Install recommended packages", untick.

...

Bless you. Especially if I can get to that during a clean install so that "texlive" doesn't end up taking 2/3 of the time.

Last night I did a minimal TW install that verified Carlos is indeed correct, as far as he went.

I have yet to find any evidence that deselecting install recommended packages during installation survives the installation process. The newly installed /etc/zypp/zypp.conf and zypper.conf files are exactly the same as those contained in the rpms they come from. So for the deselection to remain as local policy, solver.onlyRequires = true is apparently still needed.

Interesting. Thanks for that follow up. Michael -- Michael Fischer michael@visv.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth composed on 2017-07-31 22:52 (UTC+0100):

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:00:16 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

...

Last night I did a minimal TW install that verified Carlos is indeed correct, as far as he went.

...

I have yet to find any evidence that deselecting install recommended packages during installation survives the installation process. The newly installed /etc/zypp/zypp.conf and zypper.conf files are exactly the same as those contained in the rpms they come from. So for the deselection to remain as local policy, solver.onlyRequires = true is apparently still needed.

Both my zypp.conf and zypper.conf seem to be original. Certainly they don't have solver.onlyRequires = true But YaST shows Install recommended packages unchecked. So I think there may be some other configuration file involved (whatever YaST uses to persist settings).

What /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_RECOMMENDED= setting do you have? Ambiguous evidence found on system where I had deselected recommended during TW installation: /etc/sysconfig/yast2 contained: ## Type: list(yes,no) ## Default: "yes" # # Install also the weak, recommended, dependencies. PKGMGR_RECOMMENDED="yes" /etc/zypp/zypper.conf (applicable only to zypper, while NAICT zypp.conf is supposed to apply to all libzypp users) contains: installRecommends = no I accidentally destroyed the evidence whether the installer made this change by taking a shortcut WRT changing useColors to never, copying zypper.conf from a previous TW installation where I'm pretty sure I had made the change to no manually. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:01:19 +0200 Istvan Gabor wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 00:31:55 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

The latest updates to the system want to install two Noto emoji fonts. That annoys me because I can't see ever wanting any emoji font, let alone a google one, let alone two of the bl**d things.

So YaST updater tells me that the fonts are 'recommended' by a 'security' update to chromium. WTF!

I never understood why a font has to be a requirement. Sometimes not only recommended but required.

Me neither. And I'm quite happy to see tofu instead of emojis.

...

So I would like to tell YaST not to install those recommendations, but I can't figure out how to do it.

In yast Package Manager: Dependencies menu/Install recommended packages: untick box. Don't know if this setting is saved but it's easy to change it again if not.

Thanks for this suggestion. It did the trick and does appear to be persistent. It would be nice if YaST was documented.

If you want it to make default, edit this file:

/etc/zypp/zypp.conf

and change line:

# solver.onlyRequires = false

to

solver.onlyRequires = true

Thanks to you and to Felix for this suggestion. It seems not to be necessary to make this change but I'll keep it in mind. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-07-30 15:23, gumb wrote:

On 30/07/17 15:07, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Thanks for this suggestion. It did the trick and does appear to be persistent. It would be nice if YaST was documented.

Here: https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/startup/book.opensuse.startup_co...

That's for the current 42.3, though I don't think that section would have changed since 42.2. The links to the archived 42.2 versions currently are broken, probably an oversight after this week's release.

If I click on "PDF doc" for 42.3, the online update chapter 11 is missing. However, it does exist on your link, which I do not know how you found. Ah, you are looking not at the REFERENCE book, but at the STARTUP guide: https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/startup/html/book.opensuse.start... They have migrated the chapter from one book to another! Why? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-07-30 16:06, gumb wrote:

On 30/07/17 15:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-07-30 15:23, gumb wrote:

...

Here: https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/startup/book.opensuse.startup_co...

That's for the current 42.3, though I don't think that section would have changed since 42.2. The links to the archived 42.2 versions currently are broken, probably an oversight after this week's release.

If I click on "PDF doc" for 42.3, the online update chapter 11 is missing. However, it does exist on your link, which I do not know how you found. Ah, you are looking not at the REFERENCE book, but at the STARTUP guide:

https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/startup/html/book.opensuse.start...

They have migrated the chapter from one book to another! Why?

I first looked in the Reference book. What I found there was how to use YaST in text mode, along with usage of zypper. I presume they are separating what they believe to be beginner package administration from advanced admin.

And changing an organization that is decades old. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 30/07/17 18:55, Dave Howorth wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 15:23:11 +0200 gumb wrote:

...

On 30/07/17 15:07, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Thanks for this suggestion. It did the trick and does appear to be persistent. It would be nice if YaST was documented.

Here: https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/startup/book.opensuse.startup_co...

That's for the current 42.3, though I don't think that section would have changed since 42.2. The links to the archived 42.2 versions currently are broken, probably an oversight after this week's release.

Thanks for the link. That doesn't document YaST to the extent that it covers the issue we're discussing though. :( (hope you've got the right emoji font loaded :)

Did you scroll down to the next page: 9.2.4.1 - Handling of Package Recommendations That sub-sub-section isn't listed in the Contents so I couldn't link to it directly. It may not be super in-depth but it does touch on the issue you're raising. gumb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-07-30 15:45, gumb wrote:

On 30/07/17 15:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I went to search on the books for older releases (Documentation for Previous openSUSE Leap Releases, https://doc.opensuse.org/opensuse.html), but all links I tried are broken here. Another doc bug.

See my other reply from a few minutes ago. I've already emailed the docs team on the link provided to report this.

Tell them that moving chapters from one book to another breaks years old links everywhere. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-07-30 19:09, Dave Howorth wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 15:41:38 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

On 2017-07-30 01:31, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

The latest updates to the system want to install two Noto emoji fonts. That annoys me because I can't see ever wanting any emoji font, let alone a google one, let alone two of the bl**d things.

If I tell the browser to display "https://web.whatsapp.com/" (it displays a locally generated page coming from my android phone), it is very probable that it will display a lot of emojis. So, yes, it surely is recommended to install that "pseudofont".

If *I* tell the browser to display "https://web.whatsapp.com/" it displays an arc 'rotating' in a circle. I assume that means that address requires me to enable Javascript in order to see the content. In such circumstances I simply don't bother looking. If they aren't willing to provide a web page I can see (i.e. HTML) then I'm not willing to look.

This page surely needs code, but I have no idea what it is. Info doesn't say. The circle displays because you have not told it before where is your android phone with the whatsapp application running. There is a previous page with a bitmap that you have to photograph with the app to make the connection. And both phone and computer should be in the same LAN.

So no, it surely isn't recommended. Even when I can see a page, I'm interested in the content, not emoji. Even when I look at whatsapp on a phone, I'm not interested in the emoji.

But the people you talk with may be interested in them.

...

What is missing is that YaST doesn't tell you that which are recommended and which required.

Well it does if you look at the appropriate tab but IMHO it should do in the dialog that pops up, and the dialog should have another button to continue the update but without the recommended packages.

You can simply untick the recommendations. YaST will proceed. Or it did, years ago. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)