[opensuse] Dual boot: Suse does not find non-Suse distros
I recently installed Open Suse 11.3 beta (build 0625) on a system with another Linux distro in another partition. Interestingly, Suse gave me no option for configuring dual boot, and the resulting boot menu showed only the Suse partition. I was able to install a custom Grub2 to get back into the other distro, but why doesn't Suse provide this? -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 13:33, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I recently installed Open Suse 11.3 beta (build 0625) on a system with another Linux distro in another partition. Interestingly, Suse gave me no option for configuring dual boot, and the resulting boot menu showed only the Suse partition. I was able to install a custom Grub2 to get back into the other distro, but why doesn't Suse provide this?
It's been like that since 11.2. Previous openSUSE releases (up to 11.1) would set up other OSes in Grub on install, but now it doesn't. This was discussed on the Factory list around the time of 11.2RC2 and raised in a bug report: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 The bug was closed without any real satisfactory solution (in my opinion). In my observations, openSUSE is the only Linux Distro that I install (out of many) that fails to recognize and set up other installed OSes correctly. Now, we get either nothing at all in Grub for other OSes, or a chain loading mess of multiple Grubs... unless you go in and manually twiddle and tweak your Grub menus. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 6 June 2010 14:52, C <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:
It's been like that since 11.2. Previous openSUSE releases (up to 11.1) would set up other OSes in Grub on install, but now it doesn't.
This was discussed on the Factory list around the time of 11.2RC2 and raised in a bug report: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 The bug was closed without any real satisfactory solution (in my opinion).
In my observations, openSUSE is the only Linux Distro that I install (out of many) that fails to recognize and set up other installed OSes correctly. Now, we get either nothing at all in Grub for other OSes, or a chain loading mess of multiple Grubs... unless you go in and manually twiddle and tweak your Grub menus.
Thanks, C. I commented on that bug. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 June 2010 06:52:29 C wrote:
Now, we get either nothing at all in Grub for other OSes, or a chain loading mess of multiple Grubs... unless you go in and manually twiddle and tweak your Grub menus.
The "mess" of multiple boot menus is actually the only fair solution with reasonable maintenance and development cost. There is grub, grub2, lilo, BSD, Windows and any other OS specific boot loader that I have no idea it exists. Combine that with all kernel names and versions, initrd names and versions, default disk layouts, default configurations and user customizations (and errors). Number of combinations that boot loader installer has to handle grows very fast. Making all of them to appear in the openSUSE grub correctly is not always possible, and even when it is, it can be very complicated and error prone process, or better to say guesswork of "his masters mind". The only problem with openSUSE approach is that not every OS (distro) is configured to do the same; take care to boot itself correctly, and let the rest boot trough their own boot loaders, making users confused which approach is correct. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 16:40, Rajko M. wrote:
The "mess" of multiple boot menus is actually the only fair solution with reasonable maintenance and development cost.
There is grub, grub2, lilo, BSD, Windows and any other OS specific boot loader that I have no idea it exists. Combine that with all kernel names and versions, initrd names and versions, default disk layouts, default configurations and user customizations (and errors). Number of combinations that boot loader installer has to handle grows very fast.
Making all of them to appear in the openSUSE grub correctly is not always possible, and even when it is, it can be very complicated and error prone process, or better to say guesswork of "his masters mind".
The only problem with openSUSE approach is that not every OS (distro) is configured to do the same; take care to boot itself correctly, and let the rest boot trough their own boot loaders, making users confused which approach is correct.
And yet... up to 11.1, openSUSE did find other installed OSes, and did set up other bootable OSes correctly (in my experience).... and we had Grub, Lilo, BSD, Windows, etc., etc. (The only new bit in this scenario, that I am aware of, is Grub2). Yes, there is no argument that anything to do with booting and configuring Grub is complex, but... I still have yet to see a single answer to this problem that takes into account the fact that openSUSE did somehow manage do set up Grub with multiple boot partitions in the past, and that other Linux Distros still seem to be able to manage it right now. Sure, experts can go and reconfigure Grub or Grub2, or even switch over to Lilo if they want... yet the Ubuntu user who comes along and installs openSUSE 11.2 or 11.3 to check it out, all of a sudden seems to "lose" their previous Ubuntu since it's now missing from the boot menu they get when they start up their computer. Fixing this means they have to know how to add their Ubuntu install back into Grub. Assume you install the other way around though and install Ubuntu on a system that already has openSUSE 11.2 or 11.3 installed and whiz bang, you get the Ubuntu Grub (if you take default settings) with openSUSE 11.2/11.3 right there in the menu. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/06 17:09 (GMT+0200) C composed:
...there is no argument that anything to do with booting and configuring Grub is complex, but... I still have yet to see a single answer to this problem that takes into account the fact that openSUSE did somehow manage do set up Grub with multiple boot partitions in the past, and that other Linux Distros still seem to be able to manage it right now...
Then you must have missed http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-06/msg00185.html To elaborate, Grub 2 GA is still not released. Last I checked it was still betaware at v1.98, which occurred subsequent to 11.2 release. Novell apparently decided its released to date installation program versions needed not support it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 18:30, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/06 17:09 (GMT+0200) C composed:
...there is no argument that anything to do with booting and configuring Grub is complex, but... I still have yet to see a single answer to this problem that takes into account the fact that openSUSE did somehow manage do set up Grub with multiple boot partitions in the past, and that other Linux Distros still seem to be able to manage it right now...
Then you must have missed http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-06/msg00185.html
To elaborate, Grub 2 GA is still not released. Last I checked it was still betaware at v1.98, which occurred subsequent to 11.2 release. Novell apparently decided its released to date installation program versions needed not support it.
I saw that. I'm beginning to think we're on totally different wavelengths here. I am not arguing about Grub2, nor am I at this point, pointing at distros with Grub2. The subject of this thread happens when you install openSUSE 11.2 on a system with 11.1, 11.0, Ubuntu 9.04, etc etc. There is no Grub2 involved there is there? I had 5 different distros installed at the time of 11.2RC1 and RC2. When I installed 11.2, I "lost" all my other menu choices in Grub. Something that never happened with previous releases. I could only chose 11.2 from the Grub menu. I had no distros installed that were using Grub2. openSUSE 11.2 does not use Grub2 by default.... so my comment still seems quite valid to me... and your valid point about Grub2 has no bearing on the issue that I can see... or does it? If it does, how since Grub2 is not a part of the proverbial equation at this point. I think we're discussing the apples and oranges thing. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/06 18:41 (GMT+0200) C composed:
I'm beginning to think we're on totally different wavelengths here. I am not arguing about Grub2, nor am I at this point, pointing at distros with Grub2. The subject of this thread happens when you install openSUSE 11.2 on a system with 11.1, 11.0, Ubuntu 9.04, etc etc. There is no Grub2 involved there is there? I
Actually you forked the thread starter http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-06/msg00178.html which refers to "another" distro, which I believe is in fact either Fedora or *buntu or both, and both of which in their most recent releases use only Grub 2.
had 5 different distros installed at the time of 11.2RC1 and RC2. When I installed 11.2, I "lost" all my other menu choices in Grub. Something that never happened with previous releases. I could only chose 11.2 from the Grub menu. I had no distros installed that were using Grub2. openSUSE 11.2 does not use Grub2 by default.... so my comment still seems quite valid to me... and your valid point about Grub2 has no bearing on the issue that I can see... or does it? If it does, how since Grub2 is not a part of the proverbial equation at this point. I think we're discussing the apples and oranges thing.
That your previous openSUSE installs were not found I think is sufficiently distinguishable from Dotan Cohen's thread starter that it should be handled by a separate thread. Every SUSE install I've done lately litters its menu.lst with every other installed OS on the system, which during install I proceed to delete, leaving only the primary openSUSE kernel stanza and its complementary failsafe stanza. Something is probably unique about yours to cause the omissions of which you complain, and it may be a bug that should be discussed further using the particulars of your system. Multiboot _is_ complicated. Generic answers to nebulous behavior on unspecified hardware are unlikely to bear much fruit, particularly within a thread materially different in its particulars. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-06-06 17:09, C wrote:
yet the Ubuntu user who comes along and installs openSUSE 11.2 or 11.3 to check it out, all of a sudden seems to "lose" their previous Ubuntu since it's now missing from the boot menu they get when they start up their computer.
That's because they allowed suse to install grub in the MBR. They should change the default proposal and install instead grub in the partition containing /boot, and not change the MBR. There should be an option in YaST to install easily this way, or to detect the presence of more oses and propose it automatically. Then the user has to configure whichever is the primary boot loader to chainload the new install. This is manual, so Yast should give the user instructions for it, or even edit that grub entry (if posssible). However, all these posts should go to the factory list, not here. These ideas/rants/whatever are lost here. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwL8UgACgkQja8UbcUWM1ypAQD/Uj4j5AUt14fIoGDaIL3ZtZwJ vkHMs4jzC3BJIm2PQDIA/jHw0KWDJsKPvA+z0LzXA1+xshfruX37bY5cyob80fVI =DhAa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 6 June 2010 22:04, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
However, all these posts should go to the factory list, not here. These ideas/rants/whatever are lost here.
If/when you do post there, be sure to mention that they won't have me installing Suse again until it detects other OSes and adds them to Grub automatically. I expect any modern Linux distro to do that for me. When I want philosophical idealisms why something simple doesn't just work, I install Debian. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/06 15:10 (GMT-0400) Dotan Cohen composed:
I expect any modern Linux distro to do that for me. When I want philosophical idealisms why something simple doesn't just work, I install Debian.
Grub 2, which hasn't gone GA yet, is anything but simple, and doesn't yet have "just works" status. Fedora and *buntu are (compared to openSUSE) bleeding edge, and tolerate absence of bulletproof bootloader status. openSUSE isn't, and doesn't, both of which I'm happy about. What's really wrong is when any distro's installer assumes, without asking, it is supposed to be _THE_ bootloader in control of the whole system, when what should happen is, upon finding other OSs installed, for it to offer a list of options for the location of the new bootloader, the top/default choice of which should normally be onto the target partition or a /boot partition, and _NOT_ the MBR, and another of which when other Grub(s) is/are found is to append (a) chainloader stanza(s) to (a) menu.lst/grub.cfg(s) to be specified by the user. Multiboot is complicated. There's no pretending it is or can be simple when the installed OS count exceeds approximately 2, especially when each OS's installer thinks its bootloader is supposed to control everything. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2010-06-06 at 22:10 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 6 June 2010 22:04, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
However, all these posts should go to the factory list, not here. These ideas/rants/whatever are lost here.
If/when you do post there, be sure to mention that they won't have me installing Suse again until it detects other OSes and adds them to Grub automatically. I expect any modern Linux distro to do that for me. When I want philosophical idealisms why something simple doesn't just work, I install Debian.
You tell them. I don't have those problems. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkwMCRwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XL6wCgkESfWrEp/DRUuWcyHjNGUYNZ n9YAn3EH8je4FB5Keg4r1gcmLxAGdSNp =P0zZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 6 June 2010 23:46, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
You tell them. I don't have those problems.
Well, I didn't want to subscribe just for that, but I did. Suse is a great distro, and I would not have a fair basis to complain if I did not make my opinion known in the correct forum. Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2010-06-06 at 13:52 +0200, C wrote:
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 13:33, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I recently installed Open Suse 11.3 beta (build 0625) on a system with another Linux distro in another partition. Interestingly, Suse gave me no option for configuring dual boot, and the resulting boot menu showed only the Suse partition. I was able to install a custom Grub2 to get back into the other distro, but why doesn't Suse provide this?
It's been like that since 11.2. Previous openSUSE releases (up to 11.1) would set up other OSes in Grub on install, but now it doesn't.
This was discussed on the Factory list around the time of 11.2RC2 and raised in a bug report: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 The bug was closed without any real satisfactory solution (in my opinion).
In my observations, openSUSE is the only Linux Distro that I install (out of many) that fails to recognize and set up other installed OSes correctly. Now, we get either nothing at all in Grub for other OSes, or a chain loading mess of multiple Grubs... unless you go in and manually twiddle and tweak your Grub menus.
I've noticed (11.1) that YaST bootloader tweaking still uses relative paths to the other OS'.. What I've done over time is to keep a copy of the other OS grub entries and just paste them back into grub when it gets reset, a pain but it works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/06 14:33 (GMT+0300) Dotan Cohen composed:
I recently installed Open Suse 11.3 beta (build 0625) on a system with another Linux distro in another partition. Interestingly, Suse gave me no option for configuring dual boot, and the resulting boot menu showed only the Suse partition. I was able to install a custom Grub2 to get back into the other distro, but why doesn't Suse provide this?
[Based upon observation, not any official position I know about.] SUSE provides Grub 2 as an incompletely supported option. Its installer provides no Grub 2 support. Consequently, it is incapable of parsing Grub 2 config files used by other distros, and it is the parsing of menu.lst files from Grub 1 that enables other distros to be found. As a consequence, I believe the current subject misleading. What SUSE doesn't configure is other distros that depend on Grub 2, which is a much more complicated boot loader that most people don't need. Furthermore, dual boot is not a proper term for any system with more than two operating systems installed. Dual means exactly two. OTOH, multiboot is proper for most[1] systems with more than one operating system installed. [1] http://fm.no-ip.com/PC/partitioningindex.html IMO, unless the boot loader currently being installed is to be the system's primary boot loader, it has no business assuming stanzas for any other distro belong in its menu.lst. On my systems, a distro currently being installed never contains a primary boot loader, as I configure the primary bootloader prior to installing anything else whatsoever. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 14:27, Felix Miata wrote:
As a consequence, I believe the current subject misleading. What SUSE doesn't configure is other distros that depend on Grub 2, which is a much more complicated boot loader that most people don't need.
Does openSUSE 11.2 use Grub2? Does openSUSE 11.1 use Grub2? As far as I know, the answer is no to both questions (although I could be wrong?)... yet when I install 11.2 on a computer with 11.1, I do not get 11.1 in the 11.2 boot menu.. or, if I do, it is a handoff to the 11.1 Grub where I have to select to boot 11.1.. instead of just booting 11.2 like I expect. There are scenarios where manually managing Grub is desirable, but it's not my preferred choice, especially considering how easily an inexperienced user can render their computer unbootable with a mis-click or a mis-configuration. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 June 2010 15:44:30 C wrote:
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 14:27, Felix Miata wrote:
As a consequence, I believe the current subject misleading. What SUSE doesn't configure is other distros that depend on Grub 2, which is a much more complicated boot loader that most people don't need.
Does openSUSE 11.2 use Grub2? Does openSUSE 11.1 use Grub2? As far as I know, the answer is no to both questions (although I could be wrong?)... yet when I install 11.2 on a computer with 11.1, I do not get 11.1 in the 11.2 boot menu.. or, if I do, it is a handoff to the 11.1 Grub where I have to select to boot 11.1.. instead of just booting 11.2 like I expect.
There are scenarios where manually managing Grub is desirable, but it's not my preferred choice, especially considering how easily an inexperienced user can render their computer unbootable with a mis-click or a mis-configuration.
C.
Perhaps that's what happened to my desktop machine, on which a week or so ago, I installed v11.2 on a new HD (sda). while the existing HD (sdb) contains v11.1. I'vw been trying since to locate the source of the problem and how to clear it. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
C wrote:
There are scenarios where manually managing Grub is desirable, but it's not my preferred choice, especially considering how easily an inexperienced user can render their computer unbootable with a mis-click or a mis-configuration.
FWIW, my experience is the reverse. It's very easy to screw up the booting arrangements on a system if you let distros do their default or even click on their install options. I usually find it easier to use grub itself. But that's JMHO :) As a point of experience, I've found that Ubuntu karmic is able to correctly detect and incorporate opensuse 11.2 stanzas in its grub.cfg There is one thing to remember with such a configuration. Whenever there's an opensuse kernel update, it's necessary to boot ubuntu and run update-grub. It's a bit like being back in lilo days. So perhaps it's better to use chainloading, despite the apparent clunkiness. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2010-06-06 at 08:27 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/06 14:33 (GMT+0300) Dotan Cohen composed:
I recently installed Open Suse 11.3 beta (build 0625) on a system with another Linux distro in another partition. Interestingly, Suse gave me no option for configuring dual boot, and the resulting boot menu showed only the Suse partition. I was able to install a custom Grub2 to get back into the other distro, but why doesn't Suse provide this?
[Based upon observation, not any official position I know about.]
SUSE provides Grub 2 as an incompletely supported option. Its installer provides no Grub 2 support. Consequently, it is incapable of parsing Grub 2 config files used by other distros, and it is the parsing of menu.lst files from Grub 1 that enables other distros to be found.
Well it also doesn't (11.1) do the others that use Grub 1, from my experience, case in point Vector Linux. :( {snip} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
Dotan Cohen -
Felix Miata -
Mike McMullin -
Rajko M. -
Stan Goodman