Root, I wouldn't go so far as to say Linux has beaten M$, but we are making headway. I believe Linux (and open source) is the future. I'm not sure how the economy is going to adjust to this, but there seems to be no stopping it. I'm sure some people will still be making software that is neither free nor GPL'ed. They will be able to make a profit for as long as the open source community doesn't have a good clone or substitute for it. That's fine by me. They deserve the reward for their hard work and initiative. The one thing that all of us out here in the free world should never do is become complacent. Never say we have won against M$ until Mom is using Linux. And even then, as Andy Grove said: Only the Paranoid Survive. (Good book BTW) Steve root wrote:

Hi,

As far as I am concerned, Linux has BEATEN M$ products and to prove this, read loads of on-line computer magazines which are telling us about the fact that Microsoft are "worried" about Linux and the in-roads it has made into Microsofts market! :-)

Welcome aboard!!!

Tom. root@twatts.demon.co.uk

On 22 Aug 1998, David Dustan wrote:

...

Just a quick note to introduce myself.

My name is David Dustan and I am fairly new to Linux. I have had Slackware (96) and Redhat 5.0 installed at one time or another. I now have my partitions ready for SuSE 5.3 which I cannot wait to install! I see a great future for linux as the challenger for the MS products.

I will be in touch I am sure for the comraderie and help!

David

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Yeah, I couldn't imagine my mom administering a Linux system. Hell, I have yet to come to terms with that notion myself! Most of the people I know don't want to have to think about their computer anymore than they think about their toaster. They turn it on when they want to read email, balance the checkbook, etc, but other than that they don't want to be bothered by it. Running Linux is like making a comittment (hell I _really_ need to get a life!). Mark --- Michael Lankton wrote:

[snip] A whole bunch of stuff that I didn't want to repost to the list... (Mark) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Linux will never be the opiate of the masses. This Linux versus M$ nonsense is SELF-INDULGENT HOT AIR and nothing more. Well, I tried to stay quiet. I don't think ANY one os is for everyone. I _DO_ think some people are better off using Mac, Win or whatever yanks their chain. I think Linux is awesome but it's mostly aimed at people WANTING UNIX, but not wanting to PAY Unix $$$. I think the almost religious enthusiasm for Linux is incredible and I respect that enthusiasm. I don't think Linux is at war with M$ though like so many people think. I think it's at war with itself and other Unixes to be the best it can be. The development of Linux really IMHO really has JACK to do with M$, this is mostly just stuff perpetuated by Linux zealouts and people in the media that just need a story so they can sell more magazines. Don't get me wrong--I love Linux and it's my main OS. I just wish people would stop going OVERBOARD, with this 'linux conquers the world and slays that great whale Billionaire Bill' crap. Personally, I don't think M$ is going down because of Linux. Not now, and maybe-no PROBABLY- not ever. The world is big enough for Linux, M$, Macintoys and whatever. What the Linux people need to learn, is that not everybody needs or has to use Linux, and that it doesn't have to overtake M$ to be a success and all this Linux versus M$ is just hot air. Fred, I don't think Linux will be the 'os of the masses' anytime soon, if ever. Not everyone can use a Unix and that's what Linux is. It may become more user friendly with enough gui toys for newbies till it looks like a damn nintendo, but underneath all that you still HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE, and there are too many people that DON'T when it comes to computers. Linux, unlike Windows and the Macintoy, will never have 'full clueless support' which is what you need to feed the 'masses'. This is the REAL reason why it's so 'hard to use'. It's simply because you HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE. That's the reason. Flame away. Bye Now, Michael On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Michael Lankton wrote:

...

Please do not misinterpret this. No one needs to lecture me about advocacy; I am a former op on a linux irc channel, I am prolific on several *nix mailing lists, and I have a web site that is devoted to a *nix windowmanager and resources for same. It's just that I have never understood this mentality about wanting to put linux on every desktop. I think this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the future of unix as a desktop os. I don't think everyone is capable of administering a unix system. This becomes especially evident when I

[big snip]

I was going to let this go, but couldn't. First, SuSE, Red Hat, etc. are ALL working towards making Linux EASILY installable, easy to administrate, and use! There are those in the Linux community, who have an attitude problem. They're better than those who don't "understand" *NIX. I'm not accusing you of that Mike....just making a statement about many who I know or have read their posts. Linux DESERVES to be THE OS used by the masses, and as it is now, there's a very good chance that it can be. It's the ONLY STABLE OS that could be used by anyone, yet still be the same OS that many have enjoyed mucking around in. NO ONE looses anything, but we ALL gain a LOT more GOOD applications, etc. We ALL have a great deal to gain, and NOTHING to loose. Some will continue to bitch about Linux' notoriety, and don't want everyone to have it.....oh well.

Someone I introduced to Linux recently made a very valid comment about the OS/2 community and the Linux community...in general. The former has always been ready and willing to help anyone. Often the Linux community just tells someone to read the * man page. It's about time we took a long hard look at ourselves. Soap box mode off.

Fred

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Michael Johnson wrote: [snip]

Fred, I don't think Linux will be the 'os of the masses' anytime soon, if ever. Not everyone can use a Unix and that's what Linux is. It may become more user friendly with enough gui toys for newbies till it looks like a damn nintendo, but underneath all that you still HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE, and there are too many people that DON'T when it comes to computers. Linux, unlike Windows and the Macintoy, will never have 'full clueless support' which is what you need to feed the 'masses'. This is the REAL reason why it's so 'hard to use'. It's simply because you HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE. That's the reason.

Flame away.

No need to Mike. Your view and mine aren't the same, and more than likely won't ever be. Regardsless of what happens with Linux, I'll continue to use it. By the way, I'll post something from Linux soon....you probably won't agree with him either, but it's GOOD "food for thought." Fred -- - Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash simultaneously - Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Aug 26, 1998, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

And that is my largest gripe with YaST. YaST won't tell you what it does ... so there is less chance you'll ever learn to do it manually (or tune stuff). It's all dandy if you don't want to learn (or doing it the first time), but sometimes I want to know how YaST sets the time zone[2] ... or whatever. I wish there was at least a --noisy switch that would write all the stuff to STDOUT or a file ...

That's it _exactly_. As a gross newbie I welcomed YaST's handholding nanny approach. Now that I know just enough to be a danger to myself <g>, I want to know what's going on so I can do it myself (if/when necessary). I've been through that process now with pppd and printing. I strongly second the suggestion for a "verbose" option for YaST. Howard Arons -- Powered by SuSE Linux 5.2 -- kernel 2.0.33 Communications by Mutt 0.93.2 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On 25-Aug-98 Michael Lankton wrote:

My argument concerning unix as a desktop os is that it requires a greater commitment of time and knowledge than the average user can or will provide. If you use linux, chances are that you are not the average user.

I think Mike has been making good points, but I'd like to put a gloss on this one. Certainly, I can't imagine the "average user" being *sure* of installing and setting up Linux: it may work out fine first time, but probably it won't, and then they're lost. After 15 years experience on various versions of UNIX and several versions of Linux, I still hit patches where several hours head-scratching and extensive knowledge are required to excape from the bind. On the other hand, once a Linux system has been nicely set up and the applications that someone wants to use have been put nicely within reach, with easily accessible on-line help about how to perform this or that task, then it is also my experience that even the least technological user can get on with their work very happily. In that case, though, there really needs to be someone within reach who can look after the housekeeping, suggest work-arounds for unusual variants of tasks, and do the necessary miniumum of sysadmin. They may not be needed very often (I've known "computer-dumb" users go for weeks on UNIX without any help from anyone), but they have to be at hand because, just as for installation, if anything goes wrong then such users are lost. So, in my experience, the "average user" can USE Linux/UNIX quite happily, just as ordinary people drive cars, and know how to put fuel in the tank, but occasionally need to have the wear-and-tear put right, or ask directions in a strange place (instead of knowing how to read a map). But the equivalent of "garage mechanic" and "knowledgeable local inhabitant" do need to be available, otherwise the "average user" can get stuck. Does this represent a realistic compromise between the extreme views that A) "Linux is not, and never can be, for the masses" B) "Linux will develop so that it can be installed and run with no knowhow" ??? Best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 25-Aug-98 Time: 10:24:48 -------------------------------------------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

(Ted Harding) wrote: [snip]

So, in my experience, the "average user" can USE Linux/UNIX quite happily, just as ordinary people drive cars, and know how to put fuel in the tank, but occasionally need to have the wear-and-tear put right, or ask directions in a strange place (instead of knowing how to read a map). But the equivalent of "garage mechanic" and "knowledgeable local inhabitant" do need to be available, otherwise the "average user" can get stuck.

Does this represent a realistic compromise between the extreme views that A) "Linux is not, and never can be, for the masses" B) "Linux will develop so that it can be installed and run with no knowhow" ???

It really depends on development over the next year, IMHO. To put a different "twist" on this, how much different is your scenario than most MAC users today? Most are totally ignorant of how their 'puter works, and occasionally they have problems, and need assistance. At least those who've been using 'DOZ have some level of competence, although, granted....not much. I'm responsible for 2 new Linux users in the past 2 months. Neither one has ever used anything but 'DOZ but are doing very well with Linux. Yes, I ASSISTED them in the install etc., but they did the "work." Will they have problems? Probably, and I'll help them out when they do. But, I proved that even a Compaq can run Linux reliably.<g> Fred -- - Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash simultaneously - Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

From my perspective, of all that I have tried SuSE was the most "turn key' of all that I have tried. It and Debian were able to have a Linux box complete with X, running with the most ease; SuSE was by far the most complete though I've yet to get my sound card to run(though it sounds as

I could not resist making a comment concerning Linux for the "masses." I've been tinkering with Linux for about a year. I am not a 'SysAdmin' though I's certainly like to have that knowledge. In fact, I did not even own a PC prior to April of last year, though I had been working in AutoCAD for about two years. My experience and knowledge were limited to that software(R12 for DOS). I discovered "Linux" and saw an opportunity to access something a friend had introduced me to a few years ago. In that case it was Unix and a Sun Sparc Station(it seems he even commented about Forth, which is of interest to me.) After a few thing s transpired including installing my first HDD and OS/2 3.0. And I even decided to take a stab at multiple OSs; Linux and OS/2. Slackware installed, but X would never come up. Then I tried Debian. Wow! I even managed to have X running, though as with OS/2 PPP never progressed to the point to run. A year later I have OS/2, SuSE 5.2, Debian 2.0, and RedHat 5.1all running. I do not currently have a provider that supports PPP so I am limited to running Minicom, which is not all that bad. I still have much to learn about command line Unix, but the point is that Linux HAS come along way. Particularly in the commercial distributions; I refer to the very preconfigured installations, which are possible as in SuSE and RedHat. Debian2.0 seems to have progressed very far from the 1.3.0 I first installed; it was a very basic configuration, but it worked. though someone else on this list managed to do so very recently(ah there is hope!)) and I'm wondering what will transpire with the Hauppauge WincastTV-dbx card I have? There is hope. M$ makes it possible to make a reasonable living, but I see a very bright future in Linux, with a lot more access to various programming languages. The Linux community is "innovative." Best regards, Bob Russell <>< kc8chq@juno.com Penguin inside! Now THAT'S Cool! On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:30:54 -0400 "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> writes:

(Ted Harding) wrote:

[snip]

...

So, in my experience, the "average user" can USE Linux/UNIX quite happily, just as ordinary people drive cars, and know how to put fuel in the tank, but occasionally need to have the wear-and-tear put right, or ask directions in a strange place (instead of knowing how to read a map). But the equivalent of "garage mechanic" and "knowledgeable local inhabitant" do need to be available, otherwise the "average user" can get stuck.

Does this represent a realistic compromise between the extreme views that A) "Linux is not, and never can be, for the masses" B) "Linux will develop so that it can be installed and run with no knowhow" ???

It really depends on development over the next year, IMHO. To put a different "twist" on this, how much different is your scenario than most MAC users today? Most are totally ignorant of how their 'puter works, and occasionally they have problems, and need assistance. At least those who've been using 'DOZ have some level of competence, although, granted....not much. I'm responsible for 2 new Linux users in the past 2 months. Neither one has ever used anything but 'DOZ but are doing very well with Linux. Yes, I ASSISTED them in the install etc., but they did the "work." Will they have problems? Probably, and I'll help them out when they do. But, I proved that even a Compaq can run Linux reliably.<g>

Fred

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Michael Lankton wrote:

Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

There are those in the Linux community, who have an attitude problem. They're better than those who don't "understand" *NIX. I'm not accusing you of that Mike....

God, I hope not. There are too many people with far too much time and far too little to do, and apparently they have nothing better to do than judge someone, say, by the mail browser they use. I _am_not_ one of those types. I will use whatever I percieve to be the os that offers me the best combination of performance, stability, and quality applications. Frankly I don't care what os anyone else uses, I don't feel the need to reaffirm my choices by being on a bandwagon. I am prone to coming off as arrogant and terse. I hope I am more helpful here than I am a pain in the *ss. I participate in this forum because I had a difficult time when I first got into unix, and the only real help I found was in books and online documentation. I found the people I encountered on irc to not be very helpful, and when I knew enough that I was in the position of helping people on irc and on mailing lists, I did.

True, and most here are helpful, but this list is not the norm.

...

Linux DESERVES to be THE OS used by the masses, and as it is now, there's a very good chance that it can be. It's the ONLY STABLE OS that could be used by anyone, yet still be the same OS that many have enjoyed mucking around in.

[snip]

linux. On my home pc I triple boot linux-freebsd-win95, and in about 4 weeks I will be quadruple booting linux-freebsd-solaris-win95, and I am setting up a dedicated Openstep4.2-x86 box this fall with the leftovers from upgrading the hardware on my main rig. I am most certainly not the average user, and I think that there are more of US using linux than THEM.

At this point, I'd agree. However, I'm quite certain that there will be massive changes in the install and management of Linux in the near future to change much of this.

...

Someone I introduced to Linux recently made a very valid comment about the OS/2 community and the Linux community...in general. The former has always been ready and willing to help anyone. Often the Linux community just tells someone to read the * man page.

I detest arrogance in others, feel free to call me out if I ever start producing rtfm type responses. However, some of the questions are obviously due to people wanting to be told how to do something instead of reading the literature like everyone else had to. There are cases where rtfm responses are deserved, but the mature thing to do in those situations is to not respond at all. rtfm doesn't help anyone, and perhaps someone else will be patient enough to help the person. I used to flame like mad, hopefully I've grown up a little.

Hopefully, we all have. Unfortunately, this is NOT the case "elsewhere."

I do indeed feel that linux and all the other free unices have very healthy futures, perhaps not for the same reasons as you, but that doesn't invalidate either of our positions.

Quite right, Mike. As I said, NONE us will loose in all this, and have MUCH to gain. Regards, Fred -- - Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash simultaneously - Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e