On Friday 08 November 2002 11:16, Thibaut Cousin wrote:

Conclusion: in 8.1 you could try to keep using YaST2's package manager/updater, but in 8.0 or 7.3 you'd better not to. But I fail to see the point of using YaST2 if you have a working Apt. Apt has all the features of YaST2's package manager and more.

Ah, well, as we have seen, apt is like a gun, that you want to use to hunt for lunch. If you can figure out where the "activator" (trigger) is, and if you can figure out how to use the correct database (the right magazine full of the right calibre bullets), you can make it work. But you are not OK, yet. If you don't know enough about the required orientation, you might trigger the device, but the little round hole is facing the wrong way -- you put a new hole in your head, and meanwhile, "lunch" walks away... laughing... The manufacturer says: Didn't you see the big admonition to "Never point the device at anything that you do not intend to shoot!" ?? Yah, but... the instructions always assumed we knew which end was which...

At the same time, I would say that in 8.1 Apt is less useful than before, as the new YaST2 is more interesting. But I can see no negative point with Apt, as long as you don't try to remove some vital parts of your system with it (see previous posts on CUPS). Remember than Apt has no real failsafe mechanism with RPM format.

But, but, but... when YaST2 or some other tool has told you that another app that you need is in conflict with (say) CUPS, then what do you do? Several other people might suggest: "Oh, well you could try this..." or "You could try that..." But, the interface never suggests anything except "There's a conflict. Do you wish to: a) abort and make no changes b) make the change and lose whatever is dependent on the packages that get removed?" Meanwhile, when people are suggesting "You could try this or that...", most of them don't mention that "you could try this or that in a completely different context, using entirely different tools, and most importantly NOT using the tools that got you into this mess.... like YaST or apt." Or somebody invariably says: "Well, just get the source rpm or tarball and compile your own." Good idea, except it breaks the database connection, and you must thereafter abandon the use of YaST or apt for doing automatic updates. In other words, when people suggest "Luke! Use the source!" they usually do not make explicit that they are hardcore source-only, "I never use a gui" people, and all their suggestions are predicated on you running your system the same way. Good luck running OpenOffice and the GIMP in a console... :-) I always love hearing from somebody -- after four or five message exchanges -- "well, it works solid for me on my twenty-three servers and three firewalls, but I use Windows on my desktop..." ymmv /kevin

On Friday 08 November 2002 13:31, Anders Johansson wrote: [...]

...

If I have 75,000miles on my truck, should I switch to 10-40 weight oil?

Sell it or trade it in for a SUV

Hey, c'mon now. If it's a Chevy truck or a Volvo, it's just barely broken in. It still has most of its life ahead of it. Have some respect. :-) /kevin

On Friday 08 November 2002 16.58, Tom Nielsen wrote:

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I was having some problems with KDE and it looked like I had all the KDE related files installed. To double check I went to YAST2 to see what was missing. I noticed that the files on YAST2 were different from that on Synaptic. My questions are:

Did you mean the versions of the different programs? If you are using either to tell you what is ALREADY installed, they both get it from the rpm database, and they agree. If you mean the install module of Yast, it will show you the version on the CD/DVD, but if you click on the more info, IIRC, it will show you what is installed. I know YOU does. Apt will show you which version of what package is installed, as well as if a newer package is available (but not necessarily FROM SuSE, but rpm

On 11/09/2002 02:31 AM, Anders Johansson wrote: packages made FOR SuSE).

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Are the two programs supposed to share the same package database?

In my experience, yes, they both share the same rpm database (as well as Kpackage and the command line)

<snip> If you installed from CD/DVD it's even worse, since yast will only know about the packages on the CD/DVD, while apt by default looks at suse's ftp server, where the packages all have higher build numbers, so one of the two tools, depending on which you used last, will think almost nothing of what's available is installed.

I installed from DVD, and I didn't have that problem (there is info on the sight about that, to remove base from the sources file). I interchangeably use apt, you, and fou4s, and they work very well, each with their own strength. I have had time when YOU always failed no matter which server I tried, and fou4s worked without a hitch. But I digress, I have never had any of them not know something was installed, as long as it was done by rpm. This is a limitation of rpm, not yast, apt, or anything else.

...

If I'm using Synaptic, should I ever use YAST2?

I do, on 2 machines, with NO problem, BUT [LEGAL DISCLAIMER], YMMV. It is always nice to have a backup in case one has a problem. I use 8.0, which MAY make a difference.

Probably not

I don't understand the recent 'discussion' regarding apt. It is an installation/version control tool, which brings back a bit of the functionality we lost with Yast1. Blasting a tool for its misuse isn't wise. It still could be better optimized for SuSE, like automatically running SuSEconfig, ldconfig, etc,. but it IS a good tool for what it does. It is NOT a do everything tool. I think we would serve newbies and bandwidth better to help with the PROPER use of the different tools than attacking Richard Bos or apt, IMHO. -- Joe & Sesil Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Web Address: http://www.mydestiny.net/~joe_morris Registered Linux user 231871 God said, I AM that I AM. I say, by the grace God, I am what I am.