[opensuse] Major install problems with 13.2 -- Worse
The first thread got off track. I need a new one. Cpmputer: HP 6305 minitower, with HP motherboard. Latest BIOS BIOS provides 'Legacy Support' (= bios/mbr): enabled Secure boot is disabled Windows 7 Pro, 64 bit. Drives: /dev/sda -- came with computer; entirely filled up. /dev/sdb -- my addition to use for Linux With nothing on 'sdb', the system boots to Win-7 (Today I deleted all partition on sdb) Let me be clear: Windows boots with bios/MBR and the corresponding bootmgr. It will _not_ boot if the BIOS Legacy Support is turned off (= UEFI). (The system came with a Win-8 disk, and the computer could be set to use it. It never was.) The openSuSE 13.2 full install DVD, 4.4 GiB, (iso) was downloaded. Booting up to the DVD, there are no menu lines for either to boot from the installed system (only win-7) or for memtest. These items are present if the DVD is booted on other computers! Proceeding with installatiion, I construct ext4 partitions on sdb as I had done in the past. But the installer complains that there is no FAT partition for /boot/efi. Problem 1: Why should I need one? The computer is set for bios/mbr use. I push ahead and get the summary page. It lists efi mode for booting, and also that secure boot is turned on. Problem 2: Why is the installer ignoring the BIOS and my setup? I click on Booting, change the manager to GRUB2 (which had worked for me before, even on this coomputer), disable secure boot. The summary then says "Unsupported combination of hardware platform for x86_64 and grub2." Problem 3: What, What?? Ignoring, I am able to install the code. However, on reboot, there is _still_ no menu item to boot the installed system, and the installtion starts over again. Problem 4: Why aren't these items at least showing up now? I reboot the computer. Now I see a menu item for openSUSE that leads me to the system. But there is _No_ entry for Windows. Now, I can not even get into Win-7 ! Problem 5: Why isn't a Windows option automatic, as it has been for a very long time? I clean off sdb and tried to work with a GPT style, such as including a FAT partition for /boot/efi. I encountered messages such as "/ boot partition does not have a GPT disk label." It tells me to destroy the disk label in expert partitioner. But I am already in the expert partitioner, and there are no options to handle labels. I even tried the proposed default GTP setup. I again ended up with Problems 4 and 5. Let me note that, before all of this, I had Win-7 and oS 13.1 running well together on the computer. I don't know how I did that because the 13.1 DVD is now behaving the same way as 13.2. (Before you ask, this statement is true before and after the BIOS update.) There may be ways to work around these problems. But it should not be necessary -- certainluy not for the istall disk which the first contact between the SuSE OS and the public. I recall that the install DVD for a previous release (9.? or 10.?) had to be remastered due to major problems. It may be necessary again. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2015 03:30 PM, Joseph Comfort wrote:
The first thread got off track. I need a new one.
I'm not quoting all of that. I'll rely on readers looking at the original. Since your earlier mail, there has been a forum thread with another user finding that the installer booted in UEFI mode. So you have company, if that helps. Just to be clear, this problem is not in any way a bug in the install media. Doubtless there are bugs there. However, how the media is booted is entirely dependent on the firmware (or BIOS). By the time the first opensuse provided instruction runs, it has already been decided by the firmware whether to boot with UEFI or Legacy. If you cannot find a BIOS setting to force a legacy boot, then you will have to live with that. On the positive side, your system should be able to boot from a USB flash drive. Copy the iso to a flash drive. You can use "dd" on linux or some version of ImageWriter. What worked in the other case, and should also work for you, was: Take that USB, and look at it on a linux system. Use "fdisk" (linux version). There will be two partitions. The first will be a small EFI partition. Delete that partition in "fdisk" and save the result. Do not change anything thing else. Then, if you can boot that USB, it will only be able to boot in Legacy mode. So that should allow you to install as you want. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Neil, Thank you. I will try the USB method, with good hope. On 01/06/2015 03:18 PM, Neil Rickert wrote:
On 01/06/2015 03:30 PM, Joseph Comfort wrote:
The first thread got off track. I need a new one.
Just to be clear, this problem is not in any way a bug in the install media. Doubtless there are bugs there. However, how the media is booted is entirely dependent on the firmware (or BIOS). By the time the first opensuse provided instruction runs, it has already been decided by the firmware whether to boot with UEFI or Legacy.
If you cannot find a BIOS setting to force a legacy boot, then you will have to live with that.
I am having trouble with this. The computer BIOS is indeed set to Legacy boot. That is the only way Win-7 will boot. Turing Legacy off (i.e., using UEFI) leads to freeze and failure. /dev/sda is partitioned in the old MBR way. The bootloader is copied from a PCAT system directory and differs strongly from one tucked away in a EFI directory (on another partition). How can the computer boot with UEFI if the structure is just not there? The behavior to me is that the DVD code is either finding some hidden flag somewhere that indicates UEFI, or is imposing its own will on the user. Maybe the BIOS has 2 flags, one to say that it is UEFI capable and the other to say it is being used. Maybe the DVD code is looking at the wrong flag. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2015 05:05 PM, Joseph Comfort wrote:
I am having trouble with this. The computer BIOS is indeed set to Legacy boot. That is the only way Win-7 will boot.
But that could mean: Support both Legacy boot and UEFI boot. It sure looks as if that is what you have. And if the media is capable of UEFI boot, then the BIOS gets to decide.
How can the computer boot with UEFI if the structure is just not there?
It can't. It follows that the structure is there, and that your BIOS supports UEFI as well as Legacy.
The behavior to me is that the DVD code is either finding some hidden flag somewhere that indicates UEFI, or is imposing its own will on the user.
It's not possible. The DVD code cannot do anything until it is loaded into memory. And it is the BIOS that starts the loading. If the BIOS is using UEFI to load, then the first bits of code loaded will be code that uses UEFI. If the BIOS uses Legacy to load, then the first few bits of code will require legacy support. The bootstrap continues from there. No matter what, it is the BIOS that decides how the DVD is booted. My USB suggestion amounts to crippling the install media so that the BIOS won't find a way of using UEFI to load it. Then its only choice will be Legacy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Neil and All, My thanks for the nice explanations of the boot process. It is much more involved than I ever understood. It seems that UEFI, while offering good benefits, brings in a lot of subtle complications. After some struggles (because I had never done it before), I now have a USB stick with Live KDE. The boot-up gives a nice menu. I am now running oS KDE -- a bit slow, but maybe its the USB drive. I tried to install from within the Live run. But it bombed claiming that a disk partition was in use and could not be deleted. However, the input sequence went through fine, setting up the disks for bios/mbr booting. I have now completed the install directly from the USB stick. The default boot is now to Windows, with no menu for SuSRE. I'll get that fixed. Joe Joseph Comfort Phone: (480)-965-6377 Physics Department Dept.: (480)-965-3561 Arizona State University Fax: (480)-965-7954 Tempe, AZ 85287-1504 Email: Joseph.Comfort@asu.edu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, I think I now understand what my original problem was. I'm adding this comment so that it might be helpful for others (e.g., the current thread on Win-8.1 and oS 13.2). In addition to enabling or not Legacy Support and/or Secure Boot, the BIOS menu has a boot order list. It includes an order under UEFI at the top, and an order under Legacy below that. There seem to be no provisions for moving items up or down, just enabling them or not. I had left the list alone, thinking that the order (under each group) was just fine. Because I had enabled Legacy Support, I assumed that the UEFI sequence would be skipped over. The saga is apparently not. After installing the system, the computer insisted on booting to Win-7 (on sda) rather than to SuSE (on sdb). After I disabled UEFI in the boot order (originally considered to be redundant), I got the booting I wanted. In fact, the SuSE install DVD even boots correctly and shows _all_ menu items! The documentation is brief and less than clear on the BIOS. Anyway, the system is running and I am resoring the rpms I want. oS 13.2 looks very nice so far. Joe On Wed, 7 Jan 2015, Joseph Comfort wrote:
Neil and All,
My thanks for the nice explanations of the boot process. It is much more involved than I ever understood. It seems that UEFI, while offering good benefits, brings in a lot of subtle complications.
After some struggles (because I had never done it before), I now have a USB stick with Live KDE. The boot-up gives a nice menu. I am now running oS KDE -- a bit slow, but maybe its the USB drive.
I tried to install from within the Live run. But it bombed claiming that a disk partition was in use and could not be deleted. However, the input sequence went through fine, setting up the disks for bios/mbr booting. I have now completed the install directly from the USB stick. The default boot is now to Windows, with no menu for SuSRE. I'll get that fixed.
Joe
Joseph Comfort Phone: (480)-965-6377 Physics Department Dept.: (480)-965-3561 Arizona State University Fax: (480)-965-7954 Tempe, AZ 85287-1504 Email: Joseph.Comfort@asu.edu
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Joseph Comfort írta:
The first thread got off track. I need a new one.
[SNIP] These new BIOS systems may behave very strange. For example I have a computer that supports UEFI. It had an brand new hard disk with nothing installed on it. When I inserted openSUSE 13.1 install DVD the system has not recognized it at all. Gave error message that did not find anything bootable. When I inserted openSUSE 13.2 install DVD the system recognized it and the DVD menu appeared. The system also recognized "Ultimate Boot CD" (a CD with different programs). After this I inserted openSUSE 13.1 DVD again, and the system recognized it this time. Then I disconnected the hard disk - (unplugged the SATA cable), reconnected it (plugged int the cable) and the story started over again - oS 13.1 DVD was not recognized etc. Back to your issue: First, I am not sure that you can disable UEFI. For example in case of my motherboard, I cannot disable UEFI, but can enable legacy suport. I don't have experience with UEFI motherboards, but I think on some mothernopards you can switch between UEFI/legacy mode, on other board you cannot disable UEFI. Second, this is what I'd do: Install oS 13.2 as it goes. Then boot into oS 13.2. Use cfdisk or fdisk to check the partitions on /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. Reinstall the boot loader after editing the necessary files - either use grub legacy or grub2. Grub legacy is easier I'd try that one first. In the /boot/grub/menu.lst file you have to add Windows-7 section by chainloading. Here you can find a howto on setting up grub and grub2: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub.html http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub-2.html Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Joseph Comfort composed on 2015-01-06 14:30 (UTC-0700):
...before all of this, I had Win-7 and oS 13.1 running well together on the computer. I don't know how I did that because the 13.1 DVD is now behaving the same way as 13.2....
"GPT ... provides redundancy, writing the GPT header and partition table both at the beginning and at the end of the disk."[1] Maybe this end of disk redundancy persists from your failed attempts, and is exposing bug(s) in your PC firmware and/or the installers. Maybe a dd from /dev/null to the tail end of the disks is in order? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2015 09:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
PC firmware and/or the installers. Maybe a dd from /dev/null to the tail end of the disks is in order?
LOL. 0 bytes in, 0 bytes out. Using "/dev/zero" might be more effective. There's actually a tool "fixparts" (package "gptfdisk-fixparts") that cleans up remnants of GPT partitioning. Unfortunately, it is not on the live rescue CD or the install DVD. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Neil Rickert composed on 2015-01-06 21:59 (UTC-0600):
Felix Miata wrote:
PC firmware and/or the installers. Maybe a dd from /dev/null to the tail end of the disks is in order?
LOL.
:-p /dev/null is where my brain has been alot lately.
0 bytes in, 0 bytes out.
Using "/dev/zero" might be more effective.
Ya think? :-D
There's actually a tool "fixparts" (package "gptfdisk-fixparts") that cleans up remnants of GPT partitioning. Unfortunately, it is not on the live rescue CD or the install DVD.
When I need live media, I use the master of live media. Fixparts is on Knoppix 7.2 CD and 7.0.4 DVD, and probably in earlier versions laying about: # man fixparts ... "It can remove stray GUID Partition Table (GPT) data, which can be left behind on a disk that was once used as a GPT disk but then incompletely converted to the more common (as of 2011) MBR form."... -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Felix Miata -
Istvan Gabor -
Joseph Comfort -
Neil Rickert