On 7/12/2017 1:42 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

On 7/12/17 9:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

...And to add to that:

User=0day considered harmful in systemd

Yes that whole thing was perfect. The bug itself is perfectly normal and forgivable. The systemd developers response was a perfect example of what is so unforgivable. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918

Gotta like his style :)

That link doesn't work for me. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/13/2017 01:17 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918

Gotta like his style :)

That link doesn't work for me.

Nor me.

BC

Sorry guys, Seems the gmane.org site reminds us of the Achilles heel of the internet (links don't stay working), this is the new location https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/13/2017 3:44 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 07/13/2017 01:17 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918

Gotta like his style :)

That link doesn't work for me.

Nor me.

BC

Sorry guys,

Seems the gmane.org site reminds us of the Achilles heel of the internet (links don't stay working), this is the new location

https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/

That is excellent. :) I won't presume to say "he's right" because I am not qualified to say such a thing in relation to someone of his calibre, on this and related topics. But I can say I agree on all points. I think Poettering might be quite smart, but there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. They often go together and overlap. Intelligence does often produce more wisdom and faster, but they are still distinct things, and you can actually have a lot of either one without much of the other. If Poettering has a lot of intelligence, he has only that, and no wisdom. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:02 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

I think you identified the competing sides with laser-beam precision. Intelligence is not wisdom. When you get those rare discussions on the deeper issue, (regardless of the diplomacy used) it's worth taking a moment to (try) and understand what is being said -- and why. It applies in all facets of life and if only there were a way to include that lesson as part of the standard curriculum -- this ole world would only be the better for it. Whether the wisdom be about software design paradigms, civil responsibility, or each singular issue in between. And... if it just also happens to have all the hallmarks for a good street fight where one side is being intellectually pummeled in a colorful way -- that's just icing on the cake :)

Part of the problem with "progress" is that people are either forced to accept it or forced to find ways around it. The systemd devs have created a great many tools that some people find useful(avahi, pulseaudio, etc) but which others do not. I personally don't find any value in them, but I don't care if others use them(semantic desktop anyone??). I just prefer to be able to not have them installed. I remember when I once tried to remove avahi from an openSUSE install years ago, and it basically would have broken everything. However, a fresh install with it tabooed worked just fine. Linux is a great tool, but as with any tool, it has it's uses. When a change is made, it can have a positive or negative benefit depending on the user. I personally didn't move to KDE4 even when I was told to "get over it and get with the times". Fortunately for me, I have the ability to install and use TDE instead, which serves my desktop purposes. Unfortunately, systemd has basically become a dependency on installation for so many things that it's not like a choice between Desktop environments or editors(vi vs emacs - I use neither - Midnight Commanders built-in editor does what I need). And while I have made use of susestudio, it's lagging behind as has been pointed out before. While I personally don't really care for the philosophy of systemd, I can make use of it. Honestly my biggest issue is with Firefox. Once again earlier I had to kill it because it was hogging all the resources of my laptop and I could barely do anything with it. Desktop Environments have become less important since so much is now done on-line in a browser anyway. In the almost 20 years I have used Linux, and I've used S.u.S.E. and it's descendants for most of it, the biggest issue I've always ran into was dependency hell. Trying to figure out why something needs something else(when it really shouldn't) used to drive me nuts. Especially before I had high speed net access. In the long run, it's up to each person to decide if the changes implemented by the project leaders(who can't please everybody) are a deal breaker or not. Resources are far from infinite and IMNSHO Linux's biggest problem is fragmentation more than anything else. With Windows or Mac OS, you have 1 OS and several versions to choice from. With Linux, you have hundreds of distros and many versions of each. You even have dozens of BSDs to chose from. Projects like the Linux Standard Base and others tried to make things more uniform, but even then you have .deb vs .rpm and so much more. Sometimes too much choice is worse than having basically no choice at all. People are stubborn and will support their choice no matter what anyone says. To each their own. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:02 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I think you identified the competing sides with laser-beam precision. Intelligence is not wisdom. When you get those rare discussions on the deeper issue, (regardless of the diplomacy used) it's worth taking a moment to (try) and understand what is being said -- and why. It applies in all facets of life and if only there were a way to include that lesson as part of the standard curriculum -- this ole world would only be the better for it. Whether the wisdom be about software design paradigms, civil responsibility, or each singular issue in between. And... if it just also happens to have all the hallmarks for a good street fight where one side is being intellectually pummeled in a colorful way -- that's just icing on the cake :)

Part of the problem with "progress" is that people are either forced to accept it or forced to find ways around it. The systemd devs have created a great many tools that some people find useful(avahi, pulseaudio, etc) but which others do not. I personally don't find any value in them, but I don't care if others use them(semantic desktop anyone??). I just prefer to be able to not have them installed. I remember when I once tried to remove avahi from an openSUSE install years ago, and it basically would have broken everything. However, a fresh install with it tabooed worked just fine.

Linux is a great tool, but as with any tool, it has it's uses. When a change is made, it can have a positive or negative benefit depending on the user. I personally didn't move to KDE4 even when I was told to "get over it and get with the times". Fortunately for me, I have the ability to install and use TDE instead, which serves my desktop purposes. Unfortunately, systemd has basically become a dependency on installation for so many things that it's not like a choice between Desktop environments or editors(vi vs emacs - I use neither - Midnight Commanders built-in editor does what I need). And while I have made use of susestudio, it's lagging behind as has been pointed out before.

<snip>

In the long run, it's up to each person to decide if the changes implemented by the project leaders(who can't please everybody) are a deal breaker or not. Resources are far from infinite and IMNSHO Linux's biggest problem is fragmentation more than anything else. With Windows or Mac OS, you have 1 OS and several versions to choice from. With Linux, you have hundreds of distros and many versions of each. You even have dozens of BSDs to chose from. Projects like the Linux Standard Base and others tried to make things more uniform, but even then you have .deb vs .rpm and so much more.

Sometimes too much choice is worse than having basically no choice at all. People are stubborn and will support their choice no matter what anyone says.

I am confused by these arguments. At the beginning you complain there is not enough fragmentation, then at the end you complain there is too much. Which is it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 08:20:41 BST Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:02 PM, David C. Rankin

wrote:

...

I think you identified the competing sides with laser-beam precision.

Intelligence is not wisdom.

When you get those rare discussions on the deeper issue, (regardless of the

diplomacy used) it's worth taking a moment to (try) and understand what is being said -- and why. It applies in all facets of life and if only there were a way to include that lesson as part of the standard curriculum -- this ole world would only be the better for it.

Whether the wisdom be about software design paradigms, civil responsibility,> or each singular issue in between.

And... if it just also happens to have all the hallmarks for a good street

fight where one side is being intellectually pummeled in a colorful way -- that's just icing on the cake :)

Part of the problem with "progress" is that people are either forced to accept it or forced to find ways around it. The systemd devs have created a great many tools that some people find useful(avahi, pulseaudio, etc) but which others do not. I personally don't find any value in them, but I don't care if others use them(semantic desktop anyone??). I just prefer to be able to not have them installed. I remember when I once tried to remove avahi from an openSUSE install years ago, and it basically would have broken everything. However, a fresh install with it tabooed worked just fine.

Linux is a great tool, but as with any tool, it has it's uses. When a change is made, it can have a positive or negative benefit depending on the user. I personally didn't move to KDE4 even when I was told to "get over it and get with the times". Fortunately for me, I have the ability to install and use TDE instead, which serves my desktop purposes. Unfortunately, systemd has basically become a dependency on installation for so many things that it's not like a choice between Desktop environments or editors(vi vs emacs - I use neither - Midnight Commanders built-in editor does what I need). And while I have made use of susestudio, it's lagging behind as has been pointed out before.

While I personally don't really care for the philosophy of systemd, I can make use of it. Honestly my biggest issue is with Firefox. Once again earlier I had to kill it because it was hogging all the resources of my laptop and I could barely do anything with it. Desktop Environments have become less important since so much is now done on-line in a browser anyway.

In the almost 20 years I have used Linux, and I've used S.u.S.E. and it's descendants for most of it, the biggest issue I've always ran into was dependency hell. Trying to figure out why something needs something else(when it really shouldn't) used to drive me nuts. Especially before I had high speed net access.

In the long run, it's up to each person to decide if the changes implemented by the project leaders(who can't please everybody) are a deal breaker or not. Resources are far from infinite and IMNSHO Linux's biggest problem is fragmentation more than anything else.

Systemd is one of the things reducing fragmentation where you can have a standard across all distros that use it.

With Windows or Mac OS, you have 1 OS and several versions to choice from. With Linux, you have hundreds of distros and many versions of each. You even have dozens of BSDs to chose from. Projects like the Linux Standard Base and others tried to make things more uniform, but even then you have .deb vs .rpm and so much more.

Sometimes too much choice is worse than having basically no choice at all. People are stubborn and will support their choice no matter what anyone says.

To each their own. Indeed, if only people could accept that then we would not have any silly flame wars no matter how polite they try to be with their denigration of each others choices.

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

If you feel that you need to "Make Linux Great Again" by regressing, then you can do so. You can even publicise your 'systemd-free kde3 based' distribution for all to "share and enjoy". And if people decide they don't want to use that, then they don't need to. Just like you don't have to use the mainstream distributions. Oh, wait! There are lots of people who have used to Build System to make their own highly customized distributions. https://build.opensuse.org/project

From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like the devs, LP

I wasn't complaining about systemd per se. I personally just don't think it's a good idea to put so much into an init system. Microsoft always had a policy of trying to hijack stuff by "extending" a standard so they could control it and systemd "seems" to do a lot of that. And it's not portable to the BSDs(which some think is a good thing). the least. For all his ranting, in some ways he is as arrogant as Linus is "mean". However, when you get right down to it, most users(and I include myself in this group) are not programmers and don't have time to try to get that deeply involved in things. They just want a system that works the way they expect. There are many ways to support a project. Money(I used to but the boxed versions of S.u.S.E.), time(coding, teaching, helping, etc) and more. When the openSUSE project was started it gave users more of a voice in the direction of the distro, but at the end of the day, decisions have to be made and you can't please everyone. As for fragmentation being a strength, it is also a weakness. So many hours of developers times are taken to package each distro, when they could be working to move things forward or to help clean up code elsewhere. But I'm not here to dictate to people what they should do. Just making an observation. As someone who has worked on computers for others for over 25 years, I can say that most people just use what came with their computer and could care less about anything else. They'd rather pay me to fix it than move to something that may be better. Android has a similar, but reverse problem. I run 4.0.4 on my LG Mach. It was one of the last keyboard/slider phones and it is 4G so it does what I need. But I can't get security updates for it so I have to be careful what I do with it(of course it's rooted and has had most unsecure crap stripped from it). I don't know if I'd want to run 7.x on it, but i would be nice to be able to get some security updates.

With options like these, complaining about the used of systemd in the mainstream (pen)SUSE is futile.

Yep. Maybe I will migrate away at some point. Who knows? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 4:12 PM, ianseeks wrote:

How do you think is actually in the init system? Don't get fooled into thinking the "extras" in the systemd project are actually in the init system itself.

It's not really the extras so much as the other projects that intend to make systemd a dependency(ie Gnome). What if someone releases something better in the future? Then these dependencies would discourage adoption.

BSD has to get Cgroups before it can be used anyway.

Most BSDs don't seem to want systemd from what I have seen anyway.

...

From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like the devs, LP the least. For all his ranting, in some ways he is as arrogant as Linus is "mean". This is the main reason, professional jealousy.

I can't comment on that though I have seen many articles about the issues with systemd pro and con.

systemd has gone quite a way to reduce fragmentation by providing a standardise way of running on all the distros without each distro having to reinvent the wheel.

Maybe, but we still have hundreds of distros(many unmaintained) compared to the "competition" on the desktop. Seems to be a lot of duplicative effort(but effort that peoplke chose to make). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 4:12 PM, ianseeks wrote:

...

How do you think is actually in the init system? Don't get fooled into thinking the "extras" in the systemd project are actually in the init system itself.

It's not really the extras so much as the other projects that intend to make systemd a dependency(ie Gnome). What if someone releases something better in the future? Then these dependencies would discourage adoption. Its the other higher level software projects that decide to use systemd bits and pieces thereby creating the dependency but the anti-crowd incorrectly say

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:50:25 BST Larry Stotler wrote: that systemd forces that dependency.

...

BSD has to get Cgroups before it can be used anyway.

Most BSDs don't seem to want systemd from what I have seen anyway. They are looking into their own version of a new init system, they cannot use systemd because of the lack of cgroups.

...

...

From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like the devs, LP the least. For all his ranting, in some ways he is as arrogant as Linus is "mean".

This is the main reason, professional jealousy.

I can't comment on that though I have seen many articles about the issues with systemd pro and con. Issues exist for all software, it just gets personal and playground b1tchy by the anti-crowd when LP is involved in the development.

...

systemd has gone quite a way to reduce fragmentation by providing a standardise way of running on all the distros without each distro having to reinvent the wheel.

Maybe, but we still have hundreds of distros(many unmaintained) compared to the "competition" on the desktop. Seems to be a lot of duplicative effort(but effort that peoplke chose to make). Thats seems par the course for open source, the better ones survive and weak one wither.

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, 13 July 2017 10:18:16 BST Basil Chupin wrote:

On 13/07/17 16:26, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless. Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you. You have choices, use them.

The choice of moving to another "respectable" distro is rather limited in my opinion, and I am not in any way contributing to a "flame war" as I am indifferent to whether or not a distro uses systemd but simply responding to your comment re choices. Have a read of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

BC

Distros deemed respectable or not, there are choices and they need to add devuan to that list as its not on the wiki. According to the wiki there seems to be more that can run without systemd than not. -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170710 Qt: 5.9.0 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/13/2017 2:26 AM, ianseeks wrote:

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless. Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you. You have choices, use them.

I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/14/2017 1:09 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 14/07/17 12:53 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect.

A perfectly rational statement because the word "only" is there.

Sometimes the solution to a problem is to "do something else". As I see Einstein being quoted as saying "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

As far as I can make out systemd does solve problems that are either insoluble using SysVinit or are simply so rococo using SysVinit as to be unintelligible and unmaintainable by us mere mortals.

However, many Linux user are not facing those problems. And that, like hamlet said, is the rub.

As for 'wisdom', that seems to be a $10 word when what was really lacking was a ten-cent word: TACT.

The idea of stagnation or inflexibility does not apply to basic principles. If we decided 100, or 50,000 years ago that murder is wrong, when does that idea expire? -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/14/2017 2:22 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 14/07/17 01:43 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

The idea of stagnation or inflexibility does not apply to basic principles. If we decided 100, or 50,000 years ago that murder is wrong, when does that idea expire?

There are quite a few direct and indirect logical fallacies there, quite apart from it being a ridiculous counterargument.

It bring to mind this latest 'bon mot' by yet another politician:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/14/forcing-facebook-google-t... <quote> This situation led tech reporter Asha McLean from ZDnet to ask the prime minister: “Won’t the laws of mathematics trump the laws of Australia? And then aren’t you also forcing people onto decentralised systems as a result?”

To which Turnbull replied: “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.”

Just how the law of Australia will override mathematics is still unclear. </quote>

I fail to see how this relates or what your point is in quoting it, and history does not suggest it's because I just fail to see things in general. The principles of flexibility, predictability, simplicity, agnosticism, and interoperability which I allude to have not been obsoleted or superseded by any of the statements of purpose offered by systemd. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/07/17 03:11 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Furthermore I'd like to state I'm not a friend of Lennart, never met him actually, but that I do dislike the bashing of him. IMHO he's one of the FOSS people that have dared to step up and do something. Which, IMNSHO deserves respect.

Indeed. In one of the classic texts on logical circuit design, so fundamental that its idea are probably embedded in every design tool and now taken for granted in the profession, is a quotation from the Roman poet Homer. In translation it reads: Brother, if you have a better idea, propose it freely. If not, make use of mine. Or, idiomatically: Put up or shut up. Its easy being a critic. Contributing something that is effective, lasting, easy to understand and maintain, and extensible is quite another matter. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op vrijdag 14 juli 2017 22:22:18 CEST schreef Brian K. White:

On 7/14/2017 3:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 14/07/17 03:11 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Furthermore I'd like to state I'm not a friend of Lennart, never met him actually, but that I do dislike the bashing of him. IMHO he's one of the FOSS people that have dared to step up and do something. Which, IMNSHO deserves respect.

Indeed.

In one of the classic texts on logical circuit design, so fundamental that its idea are probably embedded in every design tool and now taken for granted in the> profession, is a quotation from the Roman poet Homer. In translation it reads: Brother, if you have a better idea, propose it freely. If not, make use of mine.

Or, idiomatically: Put up or shut up.

Its easy being a critic. Contributing something that is effective, lasting, easy to understand and maintain, and extensible is quite another matter.

Uh, the better idea had already been proposed, and it proved itself for decades. Nothing about systemd improves upon it.

systemd is like saying you think you invented a better way to do accounting. All that best-practices stuff they taught everyone for decades, so old and obsolete, we have a better way where we don't have to do all that annoying double entry stuff. Oh ok. Got it.

-- bkw Yep. And KDE3 is the only desktop. And kernel 2.6 is the best ever made.

We've heard all this lots and lots of times over the years. These days we have an openSUSE Project which follows upstream directions. You're free to use OBS / Studio to create your own distro using sysvinit or whatever. We provide the tools, take some time and you're hassles re. systemd will be gone. Until the sysvinit devs kill their own project. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op zaterdag 15 juli 2017 00:02:05 CEST schreef Brian K. White:

On 7/14/2017 4:48 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink vv wrote:

...

Op vrijdag 14 juli 2017 22:22:18 CEST schreef Brian K. White:

...

On 7/14/2017 3:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 14/07/17 03:11 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Furthermore I'd like to state I'm not a friend of Lennart, never met him actually, but that I do dislike the bashing of him. IMHO he's one of the FOSS people that have dared to step up and do something. Which, IMNSHO deserves respect.

Indeed.

In one of the classic texts on logical circuit design, so fundamental that its idea are probably embedded in every design tool and now taken for granted in the> profession, is a quotation from the Roman poet Homer. In translation it

reads:

...

...

Brother, if you have a better idea, propose it freely. If not, make use of mine.

Or, idiomatically: Put up or shut up.

Its easy being a critic. Contributing something that is effective, lasting, easy to understand and maintain, and extensible is quite another matter.

Uh, the better idea had already been proposed, and it proved itself for decades. Nothing about systemd improves upon it.

systemd is like saying you think you invented a better way to do accounting. All that best-practices stuff they taught everyone for decades, so old and obsolete, we have a better way where we don't have to do all that annoying double entry stuff. Oh ok. Got it.

-- bkw

Yep. And KDE3 is the only desktop. And kernel 2.6 is the best ever made.

You have that exactly backwards. A useful tool does not demand that you use kde3, OR kde5.

It does not even demand or care one whit if you use any desktop at all. What a perfectly illustrative assumption you make by even saying "kde3".

There is nothing about init that prevents you from using any desktop, or from developing it to new different ones. This new vs old fixation is what's idiotic. Assumptions are what's wrong. Assumptions always need to be as few and necessary as possible. The old init makes *fewer* assumptions, and inflicts no demands upon how the higher level applications do things. It allows you to replace kde3 with kde5 or kde18 without caring at all. It is systemd which creates incompatibility out of thin air for no justifiable reason. There is no feature which systemd provides, which had to be implemented the way systemd does it, requiring the exclusion of, and breaking the function of any and all other methods of system set-up.

You say you have heard it all before, but how does that change any of the facts? And if you've heard it all before, then really that's just embarrassing for you, since it means you can no longer claim ignorance to excuse or explain your lack of understanding.

Let me ask another question: What is so magic about this decision that makes it so unassailable? The init system can only change once in the history of time? It can change from init to systemd, but that was it, now it can only be systemd until the heat-death of the universe?

You make ludicrous arguments based only on other ludicrous arguments.

No. Just saying that things move on. If someone had found a way to make sysvinit meet with modern requirements ..... And systemd will have a successor as well. It's what we do, create/improve things. My reference to KDE3 was just a joke. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 14 July 2017 23:02:05 BST Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/14/2017 4:48 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink vv wrote:

...

Op vrijdag 14 juli 2017 22:22:18 CEST schreef Brian K. White:

...

On 7/14/2017 3:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 14/07/17 03:11 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Furthermore I'd like to state I'm not a friend of Lennart, never met him actually, but that I do dislike the bashing of him. IMHO he's one of the FOSS people that have dared to step up and do something. Which, IMNSHO deserves respect.

Indeed.

In one of the classic texts on logical circuit design, so fundamental that its idea are probably embedded in every design tool and now taken for granted in the> profession, is a quotation from the Roman poet Homer. In translation it

reads:

...

...

Brother, if you have a better idea, propose it freely. If not, make use of mine.

Or, idiomatically: Put up or shut up.

Its easy being a critic. Contributing something that is effective, lasting, easy to understand and maintain, and extensible is quite another matter.

Uh, the better idea had already been proposed, and it proved itself for decades. Nothing about systemd improves upon it. systemd is like saying you think you invented a better way to do accounting. All that best-practices stuff they taught everyone for decades, so old and obsolete, we have a better way where we don't have to do all that annoying double entry stuff. Oh ok. Got it.

-- bkw

Yep. And KDE3 is the only desktop. And kernel 2.6 is the best ever made.

You have that exactly backwards. A useful tool does not demand that you use kde3, OR kde5. It does not even demand or care one whit if you use any desktop at all. What a perfectly illustrative assumption you make by even saying "kde3".

There is nothing about init that prevents you from using any desktop, or from developing it to new different ones. This new vs old fixation is what's idiotic. Assumptions are what's wrong. Assumptions always need to be as few and necessary as possible. The old init makes *fewer* assumptions, and inflicts no demands upon how the higher level applications do things. It allows you to replace kde3 with kde5 or kde18

You'll need to speak to the developers of kde3/5/18/999 about that, its their choice how they run and what dependencies they build in. Quote from Dave Edmundson on plasma "The init system. We don't care. It doesn't affect us. The init system is one part of systemd that doesn't affect us at all, and any other could be used." http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/systemd-and-plasma Here LP talks bout Gnome/consolekit https://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/ - search out this question "LV: Some people see it as a requirement for Gnome…" These 2 links might quell your fears..

without caring at all. It is systemd which creates incompatibility out of thin air for no justifiable reason. There is no feature which systemd provides, which had to be implemented the way systemd does it, requiring the exclusion of, and breaking the function of any and all other methods of system set-up. You say you have heard it all before, but how does that change any of the facts? And if you've heard it all before, then really that's just embarrassing for you, since it means you can no longer claim ignorance to excuse or explain your lack of understanding.

Let me ask another question: What is so magic about this decision that makes it so unassailable? The init system can only change once in the history of time? It can change from init to systemd, but that was it, now it can only be systemd until the heat-death of the universe?

It will probably evolve/morph into something else when the need arises, remember sysvinit wasn't the first init system.

You make ludicrous arguments based only on other ludicrous arguments.

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

To claim that SysVInit is the One Way, the Right Way, The Way It has Always Been, is incorrect to start with and exceedingly fatuous.

My understanding is that most of the biggest complaints is that systemd doesn't do things the Unix way - do one thing and do it well. Like I said, I don't have a reason to not use it. There were many other init system replacements in the mix before systemd "won". Upstart was one that Ubuntu was working on. Further, we still have many DEs - KDE, Gnome, xfce, etc. Sometimes it's not about winning. It's having people willing to maintain it. If you go back to the OS/2 vs Windows era, the winner isn't always considered the best but the one that took over. I came to linux from OS/2. I've kept up with OS/2 developments, and there is even a new release by a company called Arca Noae. https://www.arcanoae.com/blue-lion/ I still make use of WinCE on my Workpad Z50 even tho I can run NetBSD on it. Sometimes you just have to go with what works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:43:42 BST Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Anton Aylward

wrote:

...

To claim that SysVInit is the One Way, the Right Way, The Way It has Always Been, is incorrect to start with and exceedingly fatuous.

My understanding is that most of the biggest complaints is that systemd doesn't do things the Unix way - do one thing and do it well. Like I said, I don't have a reason to not use it. Thats desperate mis-information from the anti-crowd.

There were many other init system replacements in the mix before systemd "won". Upstart was one that Ubuntu was working on. Further, we still have many DEs - KDE, Gnome, xfce, etc. Sometimes it's not about winning. It's having people willing to maintain it. Systemd "won" because it solved more problems than the others. RedHat was as upstart advocate until systemd solved more problems than upstart.

If you go back to the OS/2 vs Windows era, the winner isn't always considered the best but the one that took over. I came to linux from OS/2. I've kept up with OS/2 developments, and there is even a new release by a company called Arca Noae.

https://www.arcanoae.com/blue-lion/

I still make use of WinCE on my Workpad Z50 even tho I can run NetBSD on it. Sometimes you just have to go with what works.

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/07/17 04:22 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

Uh, the better idea had already been proposed, and it proved itself for decades. Nothing about systemd improves upon it.

They probably said the same thing about 'horseless carriages' back when. I mean, after all, the horse had proven itself for not just decades, but for centuries! Some of are old enough to remember when USG introduced what we now call SysVinit. That "SysV" refers to System V, which they introduced in the early 1980s. They declared it to be the "last ever" revision of UNIX. HA! The firm I worked for at the time wanted an evaluation of the 'changes'. The introduction of what we now call 'SysVinit" was minor in comparison to some of the others. Some of the code base went from the extremely elegant version of the 'founders' to stuff that was such spaghetti as to be unmanageable. The whole print subsystem had been reworked. Eventually that got discarded; it was supposed to be a glorious, script driven subsystem characterized by being, among other things, " flexible, extensible, simple, deterministic, media and hardware agnostic, and easily ported across machine architectures. I'll grant you that it was all those things. everybody ripped it out and replaced it with 3rd party. One of the side effects to the awful USG code was the work by henry Spencer, then at University of Toronto, to reimplement vast tracts of code, starting with the basic C libraries, from the V7 manual definitions and put his code in the public domain.

systemd is like saying you think you invented a better way to do accounting. All that best-practices stuff they taught everyone for decades, so old and obsolete, we have a better way where we don't have to do all that annoying double entry stuff. Oh ok. Got it.

Once again you've come up with a ridiculous argument. I'm sure anyone who is familiar with the classic Logical Facilities can point out the details. No, in actual fact double entry, which is a BOOKKEEPING system, not an accounting system, met resistance compared to the system of book-keeping it was to replace back hen it was introduced, since the previous system had been in used for thousands for years. Not quite as long as we'd been riding horses, but certainly a very long time. It is a BOOK-KEEPING system that was originally developed to deal with fraud, by having what amounts to dual independent ledgers that are then reconciled. For many systems single entry is quite adequate and the IRS advises small business to use it. Some things are difficult with double entry and hence it has sometimes been replaced by a 'triple entry' system. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 14 July 2017 17:53:22 BST Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/13/2017 2:26 AM, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:

...

https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless. Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you. You have choices, use them.

I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect.

It is the only response if you want to refer to the whole of systemd as a "defect", the decision was taken years ago and its in opensuse, like it or not. If referring to bugs fixed in systemd then i agree, jumping ship is not really clever. -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/14/2017 2:51 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 14/07/17 01:29 PM, ianseeks wrote:

...

If referring to bugs fixed in systemd then i agree, jumping ship is not really clever.

Indeed. Expecting any software created by man, directly or indirectly, to be free of bugs and errors, is the height of stupidity.

Having a regular and consistent architecture/design, as opposed to an ad-hoc one, makes the errors easier to find (both by hackers and developers) and to address.

Those of us who are old enough will remember the maintenance problems 'spaghetti code' of the days before Edgar Dijkstra's "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" and the problems doing development before Codd's advocacy of SQL.

Disciplined structure gives poser though focus. An alternative would be converting cities and countryside to a paved expanse where you could drive in any direction and any speed with no protocols preventing you ... 'interacting' with other vehicles.

Hmm. Yes, it seems that there are cities like that in some places in the world. People do in fact choose to live there.

The box of tools and workbench provided by init and a scripting language of your choice is already the sane system of roads. Systemd is 5 trains that only go certain places at certain times in certain ways, AND, require the removal of all the other roads. If you discover, after the trains have been built, that you need to move something that doesn't fit in the train cars, too bad. You can't put some other kind of vehicle on the tracks. If you discover, after the trains have been built, that you need to stop mid way for a detour along the way, too bad. etc etc. systemd is actually simply thoughtless and inconsiderate. You don't need anything like systemd to provide a system of standards or "disciplined structure". It's ironic. systemd itself benefits, and is only even possible, thanks to other parts of the system being exactly as agnostic as systemd itself fails to be, adhering to principles systemd itself fails to. The kernel lets you specify whatever you want to run as "init". Why doesn't the kernel insist on some "discipline and structure" and decree exactly what the binary is that will run as init? Or better yet, just have the init functionality built in to the kernel itself? Because it would be wildly shortsighted and inflexible and plain dickish to do that. systemd is essentially android or a game console. It provides a particular special environment, which might be a pretty cool environment with many desirable features, but it is the opposite of flexible and it is not unix. I'm quite "old enough to remember" all the reasons the agnostic box of tools IS the sane and useful and considerate framework, and this all-singing-all-dancing thing is just a fat, limiting, monstrosity with vendor lock-in as an added bonus icing feature. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

You certainly CAN have other thins and other ways to start systems, run tasks, do If-this-then-that sort of jobs. I have jobs running in systemd computers that have migrated from older systems and didn't have change anything to get them to run. Ok, simple "want". I want to run my own 'init' process as pid=1. I want to be able to use my current recovery methods when things go south, including being able to bring up a system by manually starting each script "by hand" from a shell -- being able to easily determine

John Andersen wrote: the proper starting order by listing a directory or file. To start system: run all 'start scripts in "xxx" in the order specified by "yyy". Where, ideally it separates out HW boot tasks from system services... So for sysV-start, I can cd to /etc/init.d/boot.d and run the "S" scripts in the order shown. If I don't feel confident about all of them, I can run any subset of them, then I can try for either single or multi user... I've had times where some problem prevented an automatic boot, and the only way I had my system up was by manually starting everything from the 'emergency console' and using it (for a few weeks) from there. From what I've seen and experienced, you just can't do that w/sysd. That's my biggest obstacle in using systemd to control a normal automated boot, at this point. I don't know how many other show stoppers might be in the way -- but sysd's lack of configurability prevents it from running unless I give up my right to manually debug, fix, and continue a system's startup. If you wanted an example of its inflexibility -- this is pretty much the first I run into which aways scares the *** out of me. ;-( If this is no longer a problem, please let me know, and I can move forward (though working on my system booting, is not a real high priority task right now -- am just focusing on the "using" of it. ;-) Cheers! Linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/14/2017 07:31 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 14/07/17 08:42 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

...

You certainly CAN have other thins and other ways to start systems, run tasks, do If-this-then-that sort of jobs. I have jobs running in systemd computers that have migrated from older systems and didn't have change anything to get them to run. Ok, simple "want". I want to run my own 'init' process as pid=1. I want to be able to use my current recovery methods when things go south, including being able to bring up a system by manually starting each script "by hand" from a shell -- being able to easily determine

John Andersen wrote: the proper starting order by listing a directory or file.

To start system: run all 'start scripts in "xxx" in the order specified by "yyy".

Where, ideally it separates out HW boot tasks from system services...

So for sysV-start, I can cd to /etc/init.d/boot.d and run the "S" scripts in the order shown. If I don't feel confident about all of them, I can run any subset of them, then I can try for either single or multi user...

I've had times where some problem prevented an automatic boot, and the only way I had my system up was by manually starting everything from the 'emergency console' and using it (for a few weeks) from there.

From what I've seen and experienced, you just can't do that w/sysd.

That's my biggest obstacle in using systemd to control a normal automated boot, at this point. I don't know how many other show stoppers might be in the way -- but sysd's lack of configurability prevents it from running unless I give up my right to manually debug, fix, and continue a system's startup.

If you wanted an example of its inflexibility -- this is pretty much the first I run into which aways scares the *** out of me. ;-(

If this is no longer a problem, please let me know, and I can move forward (though working on my system booting, is not a real high priority task right now -- am just focusing on the "using" of it. ;-)

Your problem here is not that you CAN'T but that, as you say

...

I want to be able to use my current recovery methods

Systemd does have beet debug capabilities, but they are different because systemd is not SysVInit. They exists. They work differently. And if you try to use your old methods you will find they don't work because this is systemd not SysVInit or the BSD-like ad-hoc scripting set.

I came to say the same thing. Linda, your system (as described by you) is so different than the stock opensuse that I suspect you're well on your way to writing your own init system. I'd be surprised if anything worked for you the exact way you want it. Good for you. You're way better at this stuff than I am. (I'm rather surprised you start with opensuse, only to customize it so much.) For the Record, my opensuse 42.2 is pretty stock. I've changed very little. My Manjaro system has a lot of tweaking, but still all within the confines of systemd. I've got a server within a softball pitch away from my seat that is still old-school SysVinit from older Suse versions. Its not exposed and its not getting updated any time soon. I always found the old rc way a pain, but finally got adept at doing what I needed with it. Sure, I bitched and moaned about systemd but the learning curve was short, so I learned to do it the systemd way, because I wasn't all that good at the old way either. You change some procedures. Not that big of a deal. Can't help you fix your system in your hypothetical case. Pretty much assumed your question was a rhetorical corner case, but its a corner you live in (and painted yourself into) and I'd be out of my depth playing on your court. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

O

Your problem here is not that you CAN'T but that, as you say

...

I want to be able to use my current recovery methods

Systemd does have beet debug capabilities, but they are different because systemd is not SysVInit.

1) Recovery means I can run xfsrestore from repair mode. 2) I can try starting 1 more services manually. 3) I can look at all of the startup operations in one place for a given service. If I need to make a change in a utility's startup while in emergency -- I can. 4) When I have worked around a problem, I can continue to boot. I've had network problems due to naming issues that were very difficult to work with and I wanted the system "up" so I could work on them. I should be able to manually bring up the network and start needed services, so I can login from a normal GUI. There are multiple reasons why that doesn't work on sysd, not the least is it doesn't allow you to continue from after a problem-point. Those are not sysvinit features: they are *basic* features.

They exists. They work differently.

--- Oh? How do you continue after a boot problem and not have to restart? If it isn't possible, then please don't claim such methods exist. They don't work. You can't modify or look at the source and rebuild and continue execution. It's not a matter of different, it's a matter of not having basic features. BTW, what is a 'beet' debug capability? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 15/07/17 06:11 AM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

1) Recovery means I can run xfsrestore from repair mode.

Yes, you can set up a unit to do that, out of the normal boot sequence but accessible via the boot command line.

Not a problem.

--- Anything that isn't setup, *by default* at the time the problem occurs is *NOT AVAILABLE*. There is no "can set up" its either is included or not. Your answer confirms it isn't available.

...

2) I can try starting 1 more services manually.

Yes you can still do that with systemd.

---- By default, before anything is loaded other than kernel and a shell from the rootfs?

...

3) I can look at all of the startup operations in one place for a given service. If I need to make a change in a utility's startup while in emergency -- I can.

By my interpretation of what you are asking for, yes I can do that under systemd.

---- Very little was available in emergency mode when I encountered it. Again -- is it there by default, or does someone have to know how to configure it in advance?

...

4) When I have worked around a problem, I can continue to boot.

That is entirely dependent on HOW you worked around the problem.

That has never been true before in any of the cases I encountered. Short of needing to run from a different kernel -- anything but that. Again, no advance preparation was required.

It may be that with the problem dealt with you can simply reboot.

--- Rebooting reapplies the error condition. I didn't say a patch was in place or the problem was fixed. I made a change (like mounting a disk, or configuring a network, or did a modload of a needed kernel module. A few months ago I tried installing the stable "leap" into a VM. Wouldn't boot because a supported config, configured by setup didn't load a needed kernel module. I manually loaded the module but could not continue. Rebooting unloaded the module. So: FAIL.

It may be that you want to step though each stage of the boot, one unit at a time, to make sure that there are not further ... complications.

--- Wasn't what I asked. If that was the case, I'd move on to the next problem.

Once again, there are many ways to interpret your requirement.

You mean there are many ways to ask questions that are not relevant to what I asked. You could also ask if I needed the interface in Chinese because I didn't specify the interface language -- but again if I didn't mention it, then the default would taken. Default: not start single stepping after a an error dumps you into the error console and you've applied a fix.

...

I've had network problems due to naming issues that were very difficult to work with and I wanted the system "up" so I could work on them.

Are we talking about device names, names of the ethernet devices, for example? We've had many threads on that issue!

--- Threads are irrelevant. (Network is down at that point, among other reasons).

As I understand it, the modern tools allow for over-riding the naming and other tools allow any dynamic naming to be determined.

---- Tools were irrelevant. They didn't exist the first time it happened. Even after fixes (not patches) were applied, future xD policy changes forced the problem again, and again, things broke. That was fixed, but somewhere along the line it broke again -- fortunately after the 2nd break I had already introduced my own override script to set the names regardless of changing policies and config methods -- something that wouldn't work under xD, as it requires being done as part of the HW bringup (that also mounts /usr) because /usr became a requirement for starting OS functions. If xD people want to make these recovery mechanisms available by default, without someone needing to have pre-configured things before their first encounter w/a problem, then you can say these issues are handled by xD. But until then, they are not. BTW, your answers are overwhelmingly unrelated to the original problem of xD not being flexible or configurable. You can't claim it is because it isn't designed to be easily modified by the user -- and certainly not at boot/emergency repair time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 15/07/17 08:02 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

Anything that isn't setup, *by default* at the time the problem occurs is *NOT AVAILABLE*. There is no "can set up" its either is included or not. Your answer confirms it isn't available.

That's a specious argument if ever I heard one, especially coming from you, Linda, who modifies systems so they diverge well 'out of the box'.

The whole point of something like Linux and having text based configuration files is that you can manipulate them, make use of the standard interfaces. You seem to think nothing of writing a script that isn't "default", but the idea of setting up a unit rather than a script is a no-no for you.

Sorry, your argument is false.

---- Not at all. The point is, at the point of failure, I can't modify the system. All tools are offline. That's the nature of the problem. The fact that I *CAN'T* fix it is why it is broken. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 16 July 2017 04:39:16 BST Anton Aylward wrote:

On 15/07/17 11:18 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

...

Sorry, your argument is false.

----

Not at all.

The point is, at the point of failure, I can't modify the system.

All tools are offline. That's the nature of the problem.

The fact that I *CAN'T* fix it is why it is broken.

Your argument is false. I've described how to address that failure mode in a previous post. I know it works because I have done it, back when my RootFS was hosed in an early version of BtrFS.

You're being ridiculous.

I think you are flogging a dead horse here, once you've answered all the arguments, systemd will cause the tea to be the wrong colour or the coffee too milky

> Q: Are you sure? > >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >> >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 16 July 2017 12:21:24 BST Anton Aylward wrote:

On 16/07/17 04:04 AM, ianseeks wrote:

...

I think you are flogging a dead horse here, once you've answered all the arguments, systemd will cause the tea to be the wrong colour or the coffee too milky

If the coffee is too milky we'll call it a 'latte' and charge extra. heck, it works for Starbucks, doesn't it? And it tastes awful too..... :)

> Q: Are you sure? > >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >> >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

They answer is yes to both ways.

I'm assuming that we're not talking about someone new to Linux who has never seen a systemd implementation before, loading it for the very first time, never having read the documentation, man pages or any of the 'how-to' available.

---- I can't modify Windows either -- that means I don't do much in the way of development on windows.

As I said above, you seem to be OK with preparing scripts and other facilities that can be added, but not in doing other preventive or pre-diagnostic things where systemd is concerned.

Out of the box, I was able to modify open suse because I could read up on standards -- not so with xD.

But basically, if you mount the RootFS and get a shell, even in emergency mode, all the functions of 'systemctl' are available to you as well as all the tools in /{usr/,}bin, and the out-of-the-box configuration will let you run 'journalctl -b' in its various forms to let you see what went wrong with the previous boot.

Usually there are no man pages available at that point. I know how to use a shell, how to use a POSIX compatible toolset. Where is the basic compatibility. There is none. I don't want a foreign system on my server. I just want it to work.

Then you've only ever encountered a small and limited set of problems.

On the list, we've had reports of 'bad kernel' (or perhaps bad installation) that even went so far as to damage the RootFS. So you repair the RootFS and reboot WITH A DIFFERENT KERNEL.

That happened to me with an early version of BtrFS. I'm sure I'm not alone in such.

--- There's a reason why I didn't use BtrFS. I'm a bit more conservative than you in some areas.

Then what's the point of this discussion if you aren't going to fix the problem?

--- Getting the system up and running so I'm able to do anything.

...

--- Threads are irrelevant. (Network is down at that point, among other reasons).

That is why I have other machines, my laptop, my table, with which I can read this list and access the list archives and search the net. Like many others on this list I have separate hardware that act as my CPE router/firewall and my wifi, so even if my Suse box gets hosed I can still communicate.

This is the difference between you and me. I rely on my linux box -- it is my interface to the world. If it is down, I'm off line. I don't have a fleet of computers in a dusty old closet like you have mentioned having. Would that I could, but neither would I want a fleet or the maintenance of such.

I really find it hard to believe that you in your setting don't have similar facilitates available to you.

---- I don't.

Heck, if I were to have everything zapped buy a power surge that got though my UPS, a lightening strike, Then I can always walk across the road to a coffee shop or the library and use the wifi there.

--- I don't have anything that would use Wifi. I don't get out much and the library has restricted hours due to budget cuts.

You are getting quite ridiculous, Linda.

You are getting showing your privileged environment.

...

Even after fixes (not patches) were applied, future xD policy changes forced the problem again, and again, things broke.

Assertions like that are meaningless without details, Linda.

--- I don't need to give you details about why I make choices. You don't really need to know. They are my choices. I don't have the problems you claim to have had, but don't have the resources you apparently do either. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 15/07/17 11:29 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

But basically, if you mount the RootFS and get a shell, even in emergency mode, all the functions of 'systemctl' are available to you as well as all the tools in /{usr/,}bin, and the out-of-the-box configuration will let you run 'journalctl -b' in its various forms to let you see what went wrong with the previous boot.

Usually there are no man pages available at that point. I know how to use a shell, how to use a POSIX compatible toolset. Where is the basic compatibility. There is none. I don't want a foreign system on my server. I just want it to work.

I really really really think that you're being ridiculous. There are always man pages available. Even when I have no power and all my network is shut down and I don't have my laptop I can take my tablet across to the coffee shop and use the wifi there to read on-line man pages. What you are really saying here is that you expect to be able to deal with these problems by never having bothered to familiarise yourself with the capabilities when you do have an up and running system, read the man pages and the on-line how-to articles, keep a daybook where you note these things, try them out, experiment and familiarise yourself with their workings. I've never *HAD* to run 'journalctl -b' to diagnose a boot problem, but I've looked at at how it works so that I know about it in advance in case I ever do. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/07/17 01:25 AM, L A Walsh wrote:

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't have a tablet.

Don't you have a cell phone? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/07/17 08:17 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 16/07/17 01:25 AM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't have a tablet.

Don't you have a cell phone?

No. I don't get good reception where I live and I'm usually at home.

Don't you have wifi? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/16/2017 08:51 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

How is that different than using a cellular network for internet connectivity?

I assume you have an Internet connection. Many people have WiFi set up in their homes, to provide Internet service to their portable devices. Also many businesses and other organizations have WiFi available for their customers. WiFi is totally different than the cell network, in that it's just an extension of an Internet connection, not a separate service. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/16/2017 09:19 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

On 07/16/2017 08:51 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

How is that different than using a cellular network for internet connectivity?

I assume you have an Internet connection. Many people have WiFi set up in their homes, to provide Internet service to their portable devices. Also many businesses and other organizations have WiFi available for their customers. WiFi is totally different than the cell network, in that it's just an extension of an Internet connection, not a separate service. Oh... I was confusing WiFi w/Cell, WiFi is the group of 802.11 [a/b/g/n, etc] protos I see...

Don't bother w/them, even the wifi stuff doesn't give very good results -- tried a few wireless type products -- even speakers across the room (wanted to use them for back speakers in a 7.2 setup) didn't work w/o noticeable interference. Ug!

So computer is wired all the way -- though have a 5.8GHz telephone handset (with a noticeable buzz interference that appeared several months ago), and a few assorted wireless outdoor thermometers that didn't work reliably when they still worked.

Thanks for the update though.

WiFi is the wireless (RF) connection from your wired (from outside) modem to all your wirelesslly connected devices in the house, including, if you have it "connected", your cell phone. It usually runs on 2.4 GHz and 5.6 GHz frequencies. Your cell phone may be able to connect with this at around 2GHx--not too familiear with the frequencies involved. There is a lot of stuff on these frequencies nowadays, but you may be able to switch to a different frequency in each band. You'll have to consult the instructions for your device. That MAY get rid of the buzz. --doug, WA2SAY, retired RF Engineer

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward composed on 2017-07-16 20:31 (UTC-0400):

L A Walsh wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

L A Walsh wrote:

...

...

...

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't have a tablet.

...

...

Don't you have a cell phone?

...

No. I don't get good reception where I live and I'm usually at home.

Don't you have wifi?

I have neither "cell phone" nor "tablet". Cell phones get poor reception where I live. I'm usually at home. Every working PC here (there are many) has openSUSE as its primary OS. I must replace several UPS batteries every year. My car is midnight blue. Liquid and wired utilities are not on a "network" here (I live on a small island connected to civilization by one bridge). How might "wifi" help Linda or me? What does any of this sub-thread have to do with openSUSE? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/17/2017 06:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

No. I don't get good reception where I live and I'm usually at home.

We should get on the offtopic mail list for this ;-)

I have read on NNTP of people in the USA using a home cell to get their mobile phones to work at home on areas with too bad coverage. The device connects to your landline internet connection and gives service to your phone while in range.

No, I don't know brands or how they work. Maybe I can dig out some more info from posts, but searching nntp is not that easy (client refuses to search).

My wireless carrier here in the States is Sprint. I affectionately call them the Interstate Telephone Company because if you get very far away from the interstate highways they stop working. That's not really true now as they fill in their coverage area but where I live I'm in the margin between 3 of their towers. For a while I used one of their micro-cells (repeater?) at my house and it was generally ok BUT it had its limitations: 3G, not 4G, no handoff to cell network when I left home when on a call, etc. I finally sent it back to them and try not to lean back in my chair now when on a call so the phone doesn't slip into the black hole there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton, stop the ad hominem! -dnh -- You really know you're in trouble when your boss decides upon a suicide pact... and agrees to go first. -- Chris King -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Ken Schneider - openSUSE [07-17-17 11:23]:

On 07/16/2017 07:22 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 16/07/17 01:25 AM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't have a tablet.

Don't you have a cell phone?

Mine runs on the internal battery for several hours.

And it runs openSUSE and you are asking a question here about openSUSE OR TAKE IT TO opensuse-offtopic. Thankyou, -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

On 07/16/2017 01:25 AM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't have a tablet.

Tablets have built in batteries.

So it's not exactly accurate to say one doesn't have power? I have a UPS to keep my linux server running

You could do the same with a notebook computer. ... How is it possible that you don't know about such new fangled inventions?

When I traveled and commuted I had one, but they are hard to upgrade and not worth the extra expense. So I make due with a linux server and a Windows desktop that I've upgraded over the years. OTOH, I'll consider accepting cash donations to upgrade my equipment -- might even install sysd & Win10 on new systems (though maybe not. :-)). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/07/17 08:02 PM, John Andersen wrote:

This is just nonsense, showing you don't know the first thing about systemd, or you've never bothered to read the very simple manual.

+1 Or perhaps Brian is emulating a fnord? its kinda hard to argue with someone who throws up -- as you say -- straw man issues, makes claims that are contradicting what has been documented and, even with my limited use of systemd, doable and done. It's sort of like arguing with a Conspiracy Theorist who is telling you that the Government has hidden the evidence for Christ's Second Coming on a rainy Sunday afternoon at Hyde Park corner. When you ask "which government" you get a lecture, not telling you a specific one, or even "All Of Them!", but on how Plato predicted it in the suppressed eleventh book, and how this was explained in the movie "Spinal Tap" but cut out of the cinema and DVD releases. If that makes sense to you then I suggest you read Shea & Wilson's "Illuminatus!" Trilogy. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org