15.4 - Backup Your Thunderbird Mail Store before Update to 102 -- you cannot go back if you don't.
All, Just saw on announce that Tbird will update to 102. I did testing a couple of months ago with it for a heavy CPU use issue in the 91 version -- it is fixed in 102. However, the install of 102 will modify your ~/.thunderbird profile in place and it is a one-way modification without any way to undo it if you need to go back for any reason. Make a quick tar.xz backup of your existing ~/.thunderbird directory before you do the upgrade just to be on the safe side. I liked 102, so I don't expect issues, but when anything modifies a profile in place -- it's always good to have a backup. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Le 16/09/2022 à 11:08, David C. Rankin a écrit :
I liked 102, so I don't expect issues, but when anything modifies a profile in place -- it's always good to have a backup.
too late, I already have 102, without noticing it :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org http://valeriedodin.com
On 9/16/22 04:08, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
Just saw on announce that Tbird will update to 102. I did testing a couple of months ago with it for a heavy CPU use issue in the 91 version -- it is fixed in 102.
However, the install of 102 will modify your ~/.thunderbird profile in place and it is a one-way modification without any way to undo it if you need to go back for any reason.
Make a quick tar.xz backup of your existing ~/.thunderbird directory before you do the upgrade just to be on the safe side.
I liked 102, so I don't expect issues, but when anything modifies a profile in place -- it's always good to have a backup.
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch. That's what I want to avoid. I don't want to have to recreate 110 mail rules on 7 accounts and have all of that break during this update. If would be nice to have someone who has already had this experience and give a bit of fieedback on whether your old profile is used in 102, or you basically start with a blank slate again. Not looking for to that.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one. The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view). Filters are there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-16 19:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one.
The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view).
Exit Th, start it again, and account is back. Phew! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-16 19:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 19:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one.
The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view).
Exit Th, start it again, and account is back. Phew!
Can not read/write to my localhost dovecot mail store: <2.6> 2022-09-16T19:08:33.342759+02:00 Telcontar dovecot - - - imap-login: Disconnected: Connection closed: SSL_accept() failed: error:14094412:SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:sslv3 alert bad certificate: SSL alert number 42 (no auth attempts in 0 secs): user=<>, rip=127.0.0.1, lip=127.0.0.1, TLS handshaking: SSL_accept() failed: error:14094412:SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:sslv3 alert bad certificate: SSL alert number 42, session=<OQBvac7oNqR/AAAB> I had to reconfigure Thunderbird to use "security: none". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-16 11:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 19:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one.
The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view).
Exit Th, start it again, and account is back. Phew!
OK, makes sense. Since a restart is always necessary, I had exited TBird before applying the upgrade.
On 2022-09-16 19:27, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 11:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 19:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one.
The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view).
Exit Th, start it again, and account is back. Phew!
OK, makes sense. Since a restart is always necessary, I had exited TBird before applying the upgrade.
I needed 2 restarts. - First I exited TH. - Then make a backup of TH. - Then update, which included a kernel update. - Reboot. - start Th, have a look. Folders for this account were gone. - Close and start Th, folders for this account were back. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/16/22 10:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 19:27, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 11:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 19:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-09-16 15:55, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-16 03:59, David C. Rankin wrote:
Will the openSUSE update to 102 make use of our current folders? I seem to recall the upgrade creates a new profile that doesn't include all your past materials, settings and folders. If I recall, (and I still have that install in /opt), upon start it had you create a new profile and basically start from scratch.
Still using the same profile here, all my folders are present, and mail filters seem to be working properly.
I get new icons, and one account gone. I'm posting with another one.
The account definition is there, but it doesn't display any folder from it (unified folder view).
Exit Th, start it again, and account is back. Phew!
OK, makes sense. Since a restart is always necessary, I had exited TBird before applying the upgrade.
I needed 2 restarts.
- First I exited TH. - Then make a backup of TH. - Then update, which included a kernel update. - Reboot. - start Th, have a look. Folders for this account were gone. - Close and start Th, folders for this account were back.
Discussions like this thread really frost me with outrage. Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong. And design it so users can recover as well, with good guides." If software engineers and programmers approach software design with that paradigm in mind, it makes a huge difference in how one designs and writes software so that it can recover gracefully from errors and bugs. Wonder what software engineers and designers are taught these days, it's sad that a lot of software no longer follows the rules I was taught as good software practices. There is simply no excuse for a Thunderbird upgrade to destroy any user data, and that data should be treated as if it's destruction could be life threatening, because losing an email could well be! Users backing up their data is only a second line of defense, the primary responsibility belongs to the software engineers and designers and if they are unwilling to follow good engineering standards on software development, then they should be removed from the project(s) they are working on. There are lots of good books on best practices and processes to follow in order to produce solid software, I know because I have read a lot of them over the course of my career. (I'm now retired) IMHO of course, and in the opinion of a lot of my teachers and co-workers! Marc... -- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the OpenPGP electronic signature is added as an attachment. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the OpenPGP signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true. While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad. I don't know how long you folks have been using thunderbird, but I've been using it for 20 years. The thought of something occurring like occurred a year or so ago that wiped 17 years of mail data away just cannot happen. For instance, let's say I upgrade the the new TB is so ugly it needs to wear a bag over it's heqd when it goes out in public. I would want to revert until the UI elements making it that would could be fixed. But with this one shot profile fiddling that goes on with the 102 update, that path is blocked (without your pre-upgrade backup) This kind of stuff is popping up more and more -- almost a frequently as choromium appears on the security upgrade list... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 9/17/22 02:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
For instance, let's say I upgrade the the new TB is so ugly it needs to wear a bag over it's heqd when it goes out in public. I would want to revert until the UI elements making it that would could be fixed. But with this one shot profile fiddling that goes on with the 102 update, that path is blocked (without your pre-upgrade backup)
This kind of stuff is popping up more and more -- almost a frequently as choromium appears on the security upgrade list...
Well, Thankfully, other than the calendar buttons switching to the left side, everything pretty much looks the same. I do like the ability to close the menu and toggle it with the Alt key (that worked before, but now it seem consistent) Too late for a full shakedown tonight, so I'll just put a bag over its head until morning :-) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 2022-09-17 09:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true.
While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad.
But you can not revert, it is impossible. The new version of Th can not work with the old config. You have to revert the program as well, which needs some sort of backup. Yes, before doing the automated conversion the program should warn the user of what is going to happen in case he wants to abort and make a backup. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-17 09:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true.
While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad.
But you can not revert, it is impossible. The new version of Th can not work with the old config. You have to revert the program as well, which needs some sort of backup.
Yes, before doing the automated conversion the program should warn the user of what is going to happen in case he wants to abort and make a backup. No! I have to disagree, the user does not necessarily know what needs to be backed up. There are perhaps obvious data files, (in this case those files in the TB profile directory) but what about other places data might be stored? Databases? Configuration files under /etc? /opt? etc. Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should
On 9/17/22 04:44, Carlos E. R. wrote: preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade. And a route to revert back to a working state, should be automated and presented to the user in case the upgrade fails. Only the software development engineers really know how to do this. Having the ability to revert is a part of the credo to "Never destroy user data" which also includes things like preserving configuration data, schemas, design patterns etc. Marc... -- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the OpenPGP electronic signature is added as an attachment. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the OpenPGP signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
On 2022-09-17 20:16, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 9/17/22 04:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-17 09:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true.
While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad.
But you can not revert, it is impossible. The new version of Th can not work with the old config. You have to revert the program as well, which needs some sort of backup.
Yes, before doing the automated conversion the program should warn the user of what is going to happen in case he wants to abort and make a backup. No! I have to disagree, the user does not necessarily know what needs to be backed up. There are perhaps obvious data files, (in this case those files in the TB profile directory) but what about other places data might be stored? Databases? Configuration files under /etc? /opt? etc.
There are none. And it is documented, I'm almost sure. Similar to this: <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/moving-thunderbird-data-to-a-new-computer>
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
And a route to revert back to a working state, should be automated and presented to the user in case the upgrade fails. Only the software development engineers really know how to do this. Having the ability to revert is a part of the credo to "Never destroy user data" which also includes things like preserving configuration data, schemas, design patterns etc.
Marc...
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 20:24:16 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2022-09-17 20:16, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 2022-09-17 09:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true.
While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad.
But you can not revert, it is impossible. The new version of Th can not work with the old config. You have to revert the program as well, which needs some sort of backup.
Yes, before doing the automated conversion the program should warn the user of what is going to happen in case he wants to abort and make a backup. No! I have to disagree, the user does not necessarily know what needs to be backed up. There are perhaps obvious data files, (in
On 9/17/22 04:44, Carlos E. R. wrote: this case those files in the TB profile directory) but what about other places data might be stored? Databases? Configuration files under /etc? /opt? etc.
There are none. And it is documented, I'm almost sure. Similar to this:
<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/moving-thunderbird-data-to-a-new-computer>
Well yes, but how does every user happen to know for sure? With absolute confidence? How does every user happen to know even that something written about thunderbird on a site hosted by something called mozilla might be reliable? You're presuming far too much knowledge of every user. Marc is right.
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Well that's a different question, not a reason to not backup user data! If the admin is of a multi-user system then one would hope that they have such a plan, and even better if the thunderbird authors provide one ready-made. Then the admin's backups might not be needed :)
And a route to revert back to a working state, should be automated and presented to the user in case the upgrade fails. Only the software development engineers really know how to do this. Having the ability to revert is a part of the credo to "Never destroy user data" which also includes things like preserving configuration data, schemas, design patterns etc.
Marc...
On 2022-09-17 21:25, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 20:24:16 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2022-09-17 20:16, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 2022-09-17 09:37, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/16/22 19:44, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Back in the days when I was studying Computer Science, one of the cardinal rules of software engineering we were taught was - "Never Never Never destroy user data! Don't even touch it without first backing it up (for the user also) and be ready to restore software and data if anything goes wrong.
Oh how true.
While this update shouldn't destroy data, the fact that it prevents you from reverting to your old setup if something goes wrong -- is almost as bad.
But you can not revert, it is impossible. The new version of Th can not work with the old config. You have to revert the program as well, which needs some sort of backup.
Yes, before doing the automated conversion the program should warn the user of what is going to happen in case he wants to abort and make a backup. No! I have to disagree, the user does not necessarily know what needs to be backed up. There are perhaps obvious data files, (in
On 9/17/22 04:44, Carlos E. R. wrote: this case those files in the TB profile directory) but what about other places data might be stored? Databases? Configuration files under /etc? /opt? etc.
There are none. And it is documented, I'm almost sure. Similar to this:
<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/moving-thunderbird-data-to-a-new-computer>
Well yes, but how does every user happen to know for sure? With absolute confidence? How does every user happen to know even that something written about thunderbird on a site hosted by something called mozilla might be reliable?
Because every admin knows they are related.
You're presuming far too much knowledge of every user. Marc is right.
In Linux, there is an admin who must know. If not, hire one. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works. The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 9/17/22 14:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Well yes, but how does every user happen to know for sure? With absolute confidence? How does every user happen to know even that something written about thunderbird on a site hosted by something called mozilla might be reliable?
Because every admin knows they are related.
You're presuming far too much knowledge of every user. Marc is right.
In Linux, there is an admin who must know. If not, hire one.
I'm not so sure about that, Hard to call somebody that want to try openSUSE and pops in the DVD or netInstall an "admin". That's the exact type of user good software design was supposed to protect. Since TB 3, we have seen a new crop of developers at Mozilla (or loss of the old mentor folks) that has been very detrimental to the fundamentals of of the application. Sure there are a bunch of new widgets that nobody uses and everything looks like a web-page now, but the data integrity part of the app is nowhere near what it was a decade ago. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 2022-09-17 22:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works.
The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur.
Yes, there should be a warning. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-17 22:43, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 14:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Well yes, but how does every user happen to know for sure? With absolute confidence? How does every user happen to know even that something written about thunderbird on a site hosted by something called mozilla might be reliable?
Because every admin knows they are related.
You're presuming far too much knowledge of every user. Marc is right.
In Linux, there is an admin who must know. If not, hire one.
I'm not so sure about that,
Hard to call somebody that want to try openSUSE and pops in the DVD or netInstall an "admin".
That's the exact type of user good software design was supposed to protect. Since TB 3, we have seen a new crop of developers at Mozilla (or loss of the old mentor folks) that has been very detrimental to the fundamentals of of the application. Sure there are a bunch of new widgets that nobody uses and everything looks like a web-page now, but the data integrity part of the app is nowhere near what it was a decade ago.
Well, they fired a good many people, so the quality of their software is going to diminish, not improve. Things are what they are. We have to work around the problems they will cause, not the other way round, unfortunately. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works.
The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur.
It happened to me two days ago without warning! It scrambled my saved messages to some degree, but worse, it broke Smartcard S/MIME encryption. I can decrypt existing messages, but encrypting new ones fails. I'm screwed! I'm having to use Outlook!! Regards, Lew
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works.
The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur.
It happened to me two days ago without warning! It scrambled my saved messages to some degree, but worse, it broke Smartcard S/MIME encryption. I can decrypt existing messages, but encrypting new ones fails.
I'm screwed! I'm having to use Outlook!!
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay. Regards, Lew
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.3 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCYyujkBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVCtsAni/M9ZMV5PxQEImau9pg ZKDoqG14AJ4wczClQc//A7GujCX/CC1a/8fRIQ== =VhXp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2022-09-21 20:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works.
The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur.
It happened to me two days ago without warning! It scrambled my saved messages to some degree, but worse, it broke Smartcard S/MIME encryption. I can decrypt existing messages, but encrypting new ones fails.
I'm screwed! I'm having to use Outlook!!
Use older Thunderbird. Me, I just tried mime pkcs, and I can at least sign emails - with the old th I could not. But I had to go to the configuration, erase the certificate, and add it again. Funny thing, my certificate doesn't have an email defined (an error), so if I want to send to my email an encrypted email, it does not find the certificate, and it does not allow to choose one. It selects an older one that has an email defined, and when going to send it fails because it says the certificate is expired. You might want to try a fork of Thunderbird, Betterbird. https://www.meneame.net/story/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-22 04:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You might want to try a fork of Thunderbird, Betterbird.
https://www.meneame.net/story/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito...
Would you be able to provide a link that gives a traduccion al ingles, for los que no hablamos español? (Thank Dawg for Google Translate :D )
On 2022-09-22 14:22, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-22 04:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You might want to try a fork of Thunderbird, Betterbird.
https://www.meneame.net/story/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito...
Would you be able to provide a link that gives a traduccion al ingles, for los que no hablamos español?
(Thank Dawg for Google Translate :D )
Sorry, you will have to use Google Translate :-) That will be: <https://www-meneame-net.translate.goog/m/tecnolog%C3%ADa/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito-permite-agregar?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp> (the comments say things that the article doesn't, including criticism) The article: <https://www-genbeta-com.translate.goog/a-fondo/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito-que-permite-agregar-unificar-cuentas-que-queramos-asi-funciona?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp> I can paste the translation done by DeepL *Betterbird is a free open-source email client that allows you to add and unify as many accounts as you want: here's how it works* 21 September 2022 antonio-vallejo Antonio Vallejo Thunderbird is an email client that has been with us for almost 20 years. Released in 2003, even today there are still many users who rely on this legendary client. However, the Mozilla foundation has been passing the project from hand to hand, until in 2020 it found a new home under a subsidiary of the foundation itself. This did not please many users, who have seen the client being updated less and less. Jörg Knobloch was a regular contributor to Thunderbird, and helped maintain the project through various updates. However, after some disagreements, he founded his own project, known as Betterbird. This client aims to fix all the bugs in Thunderbird, as well as offering new features. A Thunderbird fork with multiple improvements Betterbird is simply a fork of Thunderbird with modifications that, according to the project, improve the user experience. It is frequently updated based on Thunderbird ESR updates, so it also has the relevant security updates. The client is compatible with Windows, Linux and Mac. The differences between Betterbird and Thunderbird are quite clear. For starters, Betterbird has a 'multi-line' view in the style of Outlook, Lotus Notes and Postbox. It also has a sophisticated search term system, with numerous filters to find the mail you are looking for. Other outstanding improvements are the possibility of opening messages by ID without finding messages that you have opened before and that the system detects that you have not done so, or the possibility of sending messages in plain text or HTML. You can see all its differences through this link (<https://www.betterbird.eu/index.html#featuretable>) Its client is very customizable and with multiple views to not miss anything. Its configuration is identical to Thunderbird. Once you add your email address and password, the system will download all the messages in your inbox. Opening the application for the first time can be a bit tedious, especially if we have several email accounts, as we will have to wait for the messages to synchronize. However, once the configuration is finished, it goes smoothly. In addition, we can add as many email accounts as we want and unify their inboxes in the same folder. In a single view we can see our inbox, folders, calendar and a page dedicated to the mail we have opened. In addition, the fact of being able to navigate through tabs makes your experience very comfortable. Betterbird also has a system to analyze the messages we receive and notify us if they may be fraudulent. In this way, browsing will be even safer. In addition, there is also an option in the settings to allow antivirus to quarantine messages individually. As for customization, we have a whole library of extensions and themes to add to Betterbird. The client relies on Thunderbird in this regard, as all plugins belong to Thunderbird and are also compatible with this fork. In short, if you want a versatile mail client, fully customizable, and without limitations, Betterbird is a very good alternative. In addition, it can be combined with Thunderbird updates, since it is a fork of Thunderbird, they are also compatible. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/22/22 07:46, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 14:22, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2022-09-22 04:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You might want to try a fork of Thunderbird, Betterbird.
https://www.meneame.net/story/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito...
Would you be able to provide a link that gives a traduccion al ingles, for los que no hablamos español?
(Thank Dawg for Google Translate :D )
Sorry, you will have to use Google Translate :-)
That will be:
(the comments say things that the article doesn't, including criticism)
The article:
I can paste the translation done by DeepL
*Betterbird is a free open-source email client that allows you to add and unify as many accounts as you want: here's how it works*
21 September 2022 antonio-vallejo Antonio Vallejo
Thunderbird is an email client that has been with us for almost 20 years. Released in 2003, even today there are still many users who rely on this legendary client. However, the Mozilla foundation has been passing the project from hand to hand, until in 2020 it found a new home under a subsidiary of the foundation itself. This did not please many users, who have seen the client being updated less and less.
Jörg Knobloch was a regular contributor to Thunderbird, and helped maintain the project through various updates. However, after some disagreements, he founded his own project, known as Betterbird. This client aims to fix all the bugs in Thunderbird, as well as offering new features.
A Thunderbird fork with multiple improvements
Betterbird is simply a fork of Thunderbird with modifications that, according to the project, improve the user experience. It is frequently updated based on Thunderbird ESR updates, so it also has the relevant security updates. The client is compatible with Windows, Linux and Mac.
The differences between Betterbird and Thunderbird are quite clear. For starters, Betterbird has a 'multi-line' view in the style of Outlook, Lotus Notes and Postbox. It also has a sophisticated search term system, with numerous filters to find the mail you are looking for. Other outstanding improvements are the possibility of opening messages by ID without finding messages that you have opened before and that the system detects that you have not done so, or the possibility of sending messages in plain text or HTML. You can see all its differences through this link (<https://www.betterbird.eu/index.html#featuretable>)
Its client is very customizable and with multiple views to not miss anything.
Its configuration is identical to Thunderbird. Once you add your email address and password, the system will download all the messages in your inbox. Opening the application for the first time can be a bit tedious, especially if we have several email accounts, as we will have to wait for the messages to synchronize. However, once the configuration is finished, it goes smoothly. In addition, we can add as many email accounts as we want and unify their inboxes in the same folder.
In a single view we can see our inbox, folders, calendar and a page dedicated to the mail we have opened. In addition, the fact of being able to navigate through tabs makes your experience very comfortable.
Betterbird also has a system to analyze the messages we receive and notify us if they may be fraudulent. In this way, browsing will be even safer. In addition, there is also an option in the settings to allow antivirus to quarantine messages individually.
As for customization, we have a whole library of extensions and themes to add to Betterbird. The client relies on Thunderbird in this regard, as all plugins belong to Thunderbird and are also compatible with this fork.
In short, if you want a versatile mail client, fully customizable, and without limitations, Betterbird is a very good alternative. In addition, it can be combined with Thunderbird updates, since it is a fork of Thunderbird, they are also compatible.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
SO, what does Betterbird do that Thunderbird doesn't do? I read the translation and didn't see anything different than my Thunderbird does for me. I have had calendar in the past. Didn't need it so got rid of it. Tabs, gottem. Spam filters, gottem. Configuration, couldn't be simpler. Multiple accounts, gottem. Search function, got it [ never used it - never needed it ]. Customizable - still uses Thunderbird addons. Sounds like someone got their nickers in knot because the Thunderbird devs wouldn't do what he wanted and copied it over with a new name. -- "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and cartridge. Please use in that order."
On 2022-09-22 15:43, Bill Walsh wrote:
SO, what does Betterbird do that Thunderbird doesn't do?
I read the translation and didn't see anything different than my Thunderbird does for me. I have had calendar in the past. Didn't need it so got rid of it. Tabs, gottem. Spam filters, gottem. Configuration, couldn't be simpler. Multiple accounts, gottem. Search function, got it [ never used it - never needed it ]. Customizable - still uses Thunderbird addons.
Sounds like someone got their nickers in knot because the Thunderbird devs wouldn't do what he wanted and copied it over with a new name.
Not really but maybe not far off, from the start. But it seems to have evolved from that point. betterbird.eu -- /bengan
Le 22/09/2022 à 16:01, Bengt Gördén a écrit :
Not really but maybe not far off, from the start. But it seems to have evolved from that point.
betterbird.eu
by the way, I tested it. Had to enter again every password, also plugins and I don't see real enhancements but I discovered betterbird reading here, thanks jdd -- http://dodin.org http://valeriedodin.com
On 9/21/22 16:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact.
I didn't have a problem with the configs, but with corruption of the message store containing decades of traffic for multiple email accounts. There was list traffic about the upgrade corrupting the message store and altering it so that an older version of TB couldn't be used. I've been dragging this message store around for almost 20-years and I didn't want it corrupted. So I'm back to where I was two-days before the upgrade to TB 102. I've locked TB 91 so I'll be good until a better-tested new version is out. At least all this is my understanding, and I'm back to normal and can encrypt S/MIME traffic again. Regards, Lew
On 9/22/22 03:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-21 20:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Only the software development engineers know for certain what needs to be protected and backed up. The TB update process/software should preserve and backup all user data before proceeding with an irreversible upgrade.
Even if they do, there is no way to revert the process once the admin upgraded the code.
Imagine my F'ing surprise when Mozilla asked me test 102-beta on the CPU use issue, damn glad I backup up my TB directory before that. When I was done, I just wiped the TB directory and restored from the backup and went back to TB 91 -- that works.
The biggest rub is there is NO WARNING. There should at least be a notice and (yes/no) prompt to the user explaining the irrevocable change that is about to occur.
It happened to me two days ago without warning! It scrambled my saved messages to some degree, but worse, it broke Smartcard S/MIME encryption. I can decrypt existing messages, but encrypting new ones fails.
I'm screwed! I'm having to use Outlook!!
Use older Thunderbird.
Me, I just tried mime pkcs, and I can at least sign emails - with the old th I could not.
But I had to go to the configuration, erase the certificate, and add it again.
Funny thing, my certificate doesn't have an email defined (an error), so if I want to send to my email an encrypted email, it does not find the certificate, and it does not allow to choose one. It selects an older one that has an email defined, and when going to send it fails because it says the certificate is expired.
You might want to try a fork of Thunderbird, Betterbird.
https://www.meneame.net/story/betterbird-cliente-correo-open-source-gratuito...
I didn't know there was a Betterbird! But Thunderbird is fine, we've been using it with smartcard/S/Mime for decades. It's just 102 that's broken. Note that it decrypts just fine, the problem has something to do with processing the certs on the card. I create a new message with addresses for which I have public certs. My smartcard is not plugged in. I can hit the "View Security Info" button and it finds all the addressee certs and tells me their expiration date and that they're "Valid". Now, doing nothing else, I plug in my smartcard and hit the View Security Info button again. Now all the certs are marked "Invalid" and I can't send the message. I tried this on two separate systems, so its not just a sample defect on my one box. I can read previously encrypted traffic, I just can't encrypt new traffic. So yup, using an older Thunderbird and zypper locking it is the answer. but only after restoring the local message database from backups. Granted, I didn't try going back without restoring the database, but that's what this thread was about in the first place. Too bad Betterbird isn't in the openSUSE repos. Regards, Lew
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/21/22 16:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact.
I didn't have a problem with the configs, but with corruption of the message store containing decades of traffic for multiple email accounts. There was list traffic about the upgrade corrupting the message store and altering it so that an older version of TB couldn't be used. I've been dragging this message store around for almost 20-years and I didn't want it corrupted. So I'm back to where I was two-days before the upgrade to TB 102. I've locked TB 91 so I'll be good until a better-tested new version is out.
What I mean is that you could have restored TB91 and configs while leaving the message store intact, to see if it worked, not missing any email. If not, then restore the messages from backup. In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
At least all this is my understanding, and I'm back to normal and can encrypt S/MIME traffic again.
In my case, I could not use S/MIME before, and now I can. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-22 16:01, Bengt Gördén wrote:
On 2022-09-22 15:43, Bill Walsh wrote:
SO, what does Betterbird do that Thunderbird doesn't do?
I read the translation and didn't see anything different than my Thunderbird does for me. I have had calendar in the past. Didn't need it so got rid of it. Tabs, gottem. Spam filters, gottem. Configuration, couldn't be simpler. Multiple accounts, gottem. Search function, got it [ never used it - never needed it ]. Customizable - still uses Thunderbird addons.
Sounds like someone got their nickers in knot because the Thunderbird devs wouldn't do what he wanted and copied it over with a new name.
Not really but maybe not far off, from the start. But it seems to have evolved from that point.
betterbird.eu
I have the suspicion that this is the same chap that added filters to Thunderbird. There was some discussion, he left, and the filters have not been modified or improved since then. If he is the same chap, I suspect that betterbird would have improved filtering and searching capabilities. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/21/22 16:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact.
I didn't have a problem with the configs, but with corruption of the message store containing decades of traffic for multiple email accounts. There was list traffic about the upgrade corrupting the message store and altering it so that an older version of TB couldn't be used. I've been dragging this message store around for almost 20-years and I didn't want it corrupted. So I'm back to where I was two-days before the upgrade to TB 102. I've locked TB 91 so I'll be good until a better-tested new version is out.
What I mean is that you could have restored TB91 and configs while leaving the message store intact, to see if it worked, not missing any email. If not, then restore the messages from backup.
In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
Yes, but due to some remote IMAP server limitations I have to download messages to the local store. It's the local store I've been worried about.
At least all this is my understanding, and I'm back to normal and can encrypt S/MIME traffic again.
In my case, I could not use S/MIME before, and now I can.
Smartcards? Regards, Lew
On 2022-09-22 20:09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/21/22 16:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote: > On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact.
I didn't have a problem with the configs, but with corruption of the message store containing decades of traffic for multiple email accounts. There was list traffic about the upgrade corrupting the message store and altering it so that an older version of TB couldn't be used. I've been dragging this message store around for almost 20-years and I didn't want it corrupted. So I'm back to where I was two-days before the upgrade to TB 102. I've locked TB 91 so I'll be good until a better-tested new version is out.
What I mean is that you could have restored TB91 and configs while leaving the message store intact, to see if it worked, not missing any email. If not, then restore the messages from backup.
In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
Yes, but due to some remote IMAP server limitations I have to download messages to the local store. It's the local store I've been worried about.
Sure. That local store can be on imap. Same hard disk and computer as Th.
At least all this is my understanding, and I'm back to normal and can encrypt S/MIME traffic again.
In my case, I could not use S/MIME before, and now I can.
Smartcards?
Nope. Be sure to open a Bugzilla at openSUSE. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 9/22/22 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 20:09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/21/22 16:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2022-09-21 a las 14:17 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/21/22 11:31, Lew Wolfgang wrote: > On 9/17/22 13:31, David C. Rankin wrote: >> On 9/17/22 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Update: I couldn't abide the thought of having to use Outlook, and having the feeling that the S/MIME bug won't be fixed anytime soon, I managed to pull a backup from right before the Thunderbird upgrade to 102. I then went back to TB-91 and locked it in place. I can encrypt again now, and my 32-GB of decades of saved messages is whole, except for the last two days, which is okay.
You know that the message store in Thunderbird is separate from all the configs. You can restore a previous backup and keep the mail folders intact.
I didn't have a problem with the configs, but with corruption of the message store containing decades of traffic for multiple email accounts. There was list traffic about the upgrade corrupting the message store and altering it so that an older version of TB couldn't be used. I've been dragging this message store around for almost 20-years and I didn't want it corrupted. So I'm back to where I was two-days before the upgrade to TB 102. I've locked TB 91 so I'll be good until a better-tested new version is out.
What I mean is that you could have restored TB91 and configs while leaving the message store intact, to see if it worked, not missing any email. If not, then restore the messages from backup.
In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
Yes, but due to some remote IMAP server limitations I have to download messages to the local store. It's the local store I've been worried about.
Sure. That local store can be on imap. Same hard disk and computer as Th.
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill.
At least all this is my understanding, and I'm back to normal and can encrypt S/MIME traffic again.
In my case, I could not use S/MIME before, and now I can.
Smartcards?
Nope.
Be sure to open a Bugzilla at openSUSE.
Yes, I opened one with Thunderbird, but not with openSUSE yet. Regards, Lew
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2022-09-22 a las 13:08 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/22/22 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 20:09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
Yes, but due to some remote IMAP server limitations I have to download messages to the local store. It's the local store I've been worried about.
Sure. That local store can be on imap. Same hard disk and computer as Th.
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill.
You don't understand. I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.3 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCYy0Cjhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVNt0AnjdM0of7op+6FTFfnDJx 1orGK49JAJoCe0P4cufaiw+PwKL2PdK5trnpcw== =m9XF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 9/22/22 17:49, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill.
You don't understand.
I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling.
I see what you mean, that would work. Local disk storage isn't and issue, but I don't control one of the remote IMAP servers and they have a low storage quota. But I noticed some oddities with the IMAP server message presentation too. For example, the Sent folder. I've got three separate IMAP accounts which show up under the root Send folder. When you click on the root you see all the sent items for all accounts, and when you click on a specific account you see only those sent items. But with 102.2.2 sent items didn't show up in the account folder, but you could see them in the root folder. Things went back to their correct places once I downgraded to 91, which proves 102 didn't muck around with the remote IMAP data. I wonder if a MUA even can do anything to the IMPA server, besides removing messages? Regards, Lew
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 02:49:17 +0200 (CEST), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
El 2022-09-22 a las 13:08 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/22/22 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 20:09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
In my case, my message store is not kept by Thunderbird, but by a local (same computer) dovecot imap server. I do this even in my laptops. This way I can see the same messages with two or more mail clients (alpine and thunderbird). I can try beterbird, seamonkey... Even outlook!
Yes, but due to some remote IMAP server limitations I have to download messages to the local store. It's the local store I've been worried about.
Sure. That local store can be on imap. Same hard disk and computer as Th.
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill.
You don't understand.
I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling.
So, can you have both the remote IMAP server that is accessible from hosts anywhere on the Internet, and is the original store for your emails, and also a local IMAP server on your computer, accessible only from it or maybe the local network, which gets a copy of all messages and folders on the remote server (is a mirror of it), but which also has local-only archived messages? Would the local MUA communicate with the local server, and the local server communicate with the remote one to keep them in sync? -- Robert Webb
On 9/22/22 21:22, Robert Webb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 02:49:17 +0200 (CEST), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
El 2022-09-22 a las 13:08 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill. You don't understand.
I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling. So, can you have both the remote IMAP server that is accessible from hosts anywhere on the Internet, and is the original store for your emails, and also a local IMAP server on your computer, accessible only from it or maybe the local network, which gets a copy of all messages and folders on the remote server (is a mirror of it), but which also has local-only archived messages?
Would the local MUA communicate with the local server, and the local server communicate with the remote one to keep them in sync?
Yes, this could actually be made to work. I've done something like this in the past using fetchmail. https://www.fetchmail.info/ I configured fetchmail to "delete on download" so that the remote, and limited, SMTP server wouldn't choke. Local MUA's would connect to the local IMAP server which had plenty of storage and they could keep their messages archived for years. Fetchmail can also be configured to keep the messages on the remote server after download if that is what you want. Lots of options. Fetchmail is in the openSUSE repositories, Regards, Lew
On 2022-09-23 06:22, Robert Webb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022 02:49:17 +0200 (CEST), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
El 2022-09-22 a las 13:08 -0700, Lew Wolfgang escribió:
On 9/22/22 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 20:09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 10:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2022-09-22 17:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling.
So, can you have both the remote IMAP server that is accessible from hosts anywhere on the Internet, and is the original store for your emails, and also a local IMAP server on your computer, accessible only from it or maybe the local network, which gets a copy of all messages and folders on the remote server (is a mirror of it), but which also has local-only archived messages?
Of course you can.
Would the local MUA communicate with the local server,
Yes.
and the local server communicate with the remote one to keep them in sync?
No. The local MUA downloads emails from the remote server and uploads them to the local server. Not directly: you put the archive folders wherever you want: local files, or local imap server. The local IMAP server is just another IMAP server, only that you control it. You can use any combination. For example, download from remote imap server using fetchmail, procmail, spamassassing, postfix, etc, and put the result into your local imap server, and then point TH to it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-09-23 03:36, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/22/22 17:49, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Could be on imap on the same local computer, but it's not. The remote IMAP servers don't have enough storage capacity, so over the years I've had to make local copies of the older stuff, usually on an annual basis. So the message store in question lives only in ~/.thunderbird. The local host isn't reachable from the Internet, so standing up dovecot would be overkill.
You don't understand.
I'm telling you to create an imap server inside the same computer where Thunderbird is, and put your email in it, instead of inside thunderbird. It is still the same hard disk, so you don't win disk space, just better handling.
I see what you mean, that would work. Local disk storage isn't and issue, but I don't control one of the remote IMAP servers and they have a low storage quota.
But I noticed some oddities with the IMAP server message presentation too. For example, the Sent folder. I've got three separate IMAP accounts which show up under the root Send folder. When you click on the root you see all the sent items for all accounts, and when you click on a specific account you see only those sent items. But with 102.2.2 sent items didn't show up in the account folder, but you could see them in the root folder. Things went back to their correct places once I downgraded to 91, which proves 102 didn't muck around with the remote IMAP data. I wonder if a MUA even can do anything to the IMPA server, besides removing messages?
The first time you run 102 it is mucked up, you have to restart it a second time. The MUA does not control the internal writing of the messages in the IMAP server. It can do many things, like write messages, delete them, move them. Create/delete/rename folders. Search. Search changes, though. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
participants (11)
-
Bengt Gördén -
Bill Walsh -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E.R. -
Darryl Gregorash -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Lew Wolfgang -
Marc Chamberlin -
Robert Webb