On 10/07/2010 06:07 PM, jsa wrote:

It seems to me that Kong and Dolphin share the setting of double click vs single click to open a file or folder.

I've had to revert to using Double Click because with the default mode of single click Kong and dolphin are just downright dangerous. Any attempt at focus launches the the object.

Progress -- this is progress?? The whole idea behind kde3 was to do the most with the minimum clicks or keystrokes. What happened to the smarts in KDE? (don't get me started on the placement of the 'close' button on the kate/kwrite find/replace dialog window - should be no more than 30 px from the find/replace button - not the other side of the dialog) When I think of progress, I think smarter, more usable, more efficient, more user options -- not less smart, less usable, less efficient, less configurable. Call it left brain, call it what you will, but this is a classic example of where KDE4 just flat failed to deliver. We have seen some smarts put back in kde 4.5.x, hopefully they will fix the focus model to work with a single-click setup without the annoying selection markers. I raised this issue since before 4.3beta2 and still no fixes. Oh, well..... to get work done, start fluxbox or k3, if you want to chase bugs, fire up kde4. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 10/7/2010 4:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 10/07/2010 06:07 PM, jsa wrote:

...

It seems to me that Kong and Dolphin share the setting of double click vs single click to open a file or folder.

I've had to revert to using Double Click because with the default mode of single click Kong and dolphin are just downright dangerous. Any attempt at focus launches the the object.

Progress -- this is progress??

The whole idea behind kde3 was to do the most with the minimum clicks or keystrokes. What happened to the smarts in KDE? (don't get me started on the placement of the 'close' button on the kate/kwrite find/replace dialog window - should be no more than 30 px from the find/replace button - not the other side of the dialog)

When I think of progress, I think smarter, more usable, more efficient, more user options -- not less smart, less usable, less efficient, less configurable.

Call it left brain, call it what you will, but this is a classic example of where KDE4 just flat failed to deliver.

We have seen some smarts put back in kde 4.5.x, hopefully they will fix the focus model to work with a single-click setup without the annoying selection markers. I raised this issue since before 4.3beta2 and still no fixes.

Oh, well..... to get work done, start fluxbox or k3, if you want to chase bugs, fire up kde4.

Chill David... I'm on your side. ;-) Other than the Double click KDE4.5.2 works pretty well on my Laptop, and suspend and Resume and Vmware work flawlessly again. After the most recent set of upgrades, FINALLY, (first time since 9.something) the Open source ATI drivers work with my Mobility Radeon 1400 card well enough to use OpenGL for Compositing. I get just over 400 FPS, which isn't great but its fast enough for me to turn on desktop effects for the first time ever, and use Google Earth again. Finally the Activities have stopped multiplying like rabbits and Dolphin works almost as well as Kong did before they lobotomized it with dolphin parts. I don't know when this all started but 4.5.2 is the first KDE that works as well as 3.2 on my hardware. Its been a long time in the wilderness. There are still irritation, but then KDE3 has a bunch of those as well. -- _____________________________________ At one time I had a Real Sig. Its been downsized. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 10/08/2010 12:01 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

AFAIK it's due to Qt4 handling things differently than Qt3 and thus KDE4 would have to work around this. Instead the devs chose the new selection tool which is a lot easier to understand for new users

You have any studies to prove how this is easier to understant? Cuz I spend a lot of time explaining this to new users, who are totally confused. People understood Control Click and shift click just fine. Its been the standard since prior to 1985. Fire up Dolphin some time. Open the information panel. Now you have an obvious case to focus a file without invoking it or opening it. Mouse over an audio file and see if you can use the Information panel player to listen to that file without launching it. -- Explain again the part about rm -rf / -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 October 2010 04:41:34 am Sven Burmeister wrote:

On Friday 08 October 2010 09:51:52 jsa wrote:

...

On 10/08/2010 12:01 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

AFAIK it's due to Qt4 handling things differently than Qt3 and thus KDE4 would have to work around this. Instead the devs chose the new selection tool which is a lot easier to understand for new users

You have any studies to prove how this is easier to understant? Cuz I spend a lot of time explaining this to new users, who are totally confused.

People understood Control Click and shift click just fine. Its been the standard since prior to 1985.

No, they learnt it. What's the logic link between the CTRL key and using it to select multiple files? There is none. You have to read it in a manual or similar. A "+" is linked to "add" and as it appears if you hover the file it is something you can click on and clicking was learnt already before.

...

Fire up Dolphin some time. Open the information panel. Now you have an obvious case to focus a file without invoking it or opening it. Mouse over an audio file and see if you can use the Information panel player to listen to that file without launching it.

Yes, I can. Hover it, then move the mouse cursor to the info panel and click on the play button. Or click on the "+" and then move the mouse cursor. If you had already another file selected, click next to the file and then on the "+" before you move the mouse to the info panel.

Sven

just butting in, but, as the above paragraph is written, it implies that now there exists a plethora of possible clicks, sometimes followed by specific mouse moves, to mysterious places like "next to the file" and "+", the exact number required for each not being exactly clear, all for a task that before ( in the prehistoric kde3 times!) needed ....*no* clicks or moves!!!!! is that the price for being free of the ctrl key that we have been *brainwashed* with? is that progress? is the above inference wrong? just being silly here, but i think the "clicks" question will haunt kde4 until it is fundamentally overhauled. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 October 2010 16:06:32 Peter Van Lone wrote:

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

What's the use case for focusing but not selecting or focusing but not performing some action from the context menu on the file?

I believe that focusing IS selecting - short of having to subsequently choose an action. We are used to using the mouse to point at (and by clicking) select an object so that we can either get information about it or perform an action against it or continue selecting other things.

If focusing is selecting, click on the "+" and you slected and focused the file. Actions are in the context-menu, use the right mouse button and they are all there.

...

If you disable the tool meant to be used for selecting files, i.e. placing the focus on a file but not opening it, it seems obvious that you cannot use that feature.

the "tool meant to be used for selecting files" is not accepted/understood or liked much by people.

Is it? I did not see any complains on this list or the kde one over the last few weeks/months.

It seems an awkward and unlikely extra bit when we can simply left-click on the thing to select it, and then use ctrl or shift to extend the selection to other objects.

Only if you explain every new computer user that he has to use CTRL and SHIFT for that. Or you add a hint to the GUI and thus make it easy to discover which is what the appearing "+" is. So I claim using CTRL and SHIFT for selecting files is rather less straight- fowrward because you cannot know about it without learning it or reading about it since there are no hints in the GUI. Why CTRL and not ALT? Why SHIFT for selecting one way and CTRL the other, why not the other way around? Why is a key that is used to switch to uppercase used for selecting multiple files, where is the obvious link between the two features to map them to the same key? Where is the logic? Or was it not rather something set-up artificially and learnt rather than a good design usability-wise?

...

Instead the devs chose the new selection tool which is a lot easier to understand for new users which do not know about holding CTRL in order to select multiple files.

says who?

Common sense? How do you know about CTRL being linked to slecting multiple files? Did you guess? Was it obvious? Was it a hint the GUI gave you? You learnt it. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Peter Van Lone [10-08-10 11:38]: ...

of course it was learned - as any behavior is. So a couple generations now of people have learned this way - that is a huge number of computer-users. My 10 yr old daughter knows this process very well and learned it very easily. Now you want her to "learn" another way which YOU think is easier/better because it is hinted in the GUI. But - perhaps SHE feels that it is clumsy and not as good as the way she has learned. Who is right? Which opinion is the better one -- and which approach will feel most comfortable for the greatest number of people, which would most people choose if they had a choice? ...

but this would mean that everyone would just use windows as that is the most used/learned/mis-understood system. *Everything* does not need to be the same, ie: single-click vs double-click, keyboard vs mouse, ... even within the same system there are interfaces that change and that while similar are different. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [10-08-10 17:26]:

On 10/8/2010 8:58 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

but this would mean that everyone would just use windows

Who said anything about windows? Don't try to turn this into an OS Flame-war issue. It has nothing to do with windows. Read the thread starter. KDE3 allowed focus without launch.

Don't take things out of context and try to slam the author. READ the entire statement, your words. KDE3??? Dead language!

We walk into rooms, and we flip light switches. We've been doing it for almost a hundred years. Now someone decides we should stomp our left foot. Its easier. Its more obvious. Really?

Ah, then the motion sensors that I have in my house are useless, ie: no "light switches" You will have to find better ground to display your superiority complex. It really is "easier" and after use becomes "more obvious". ps: My transportation device does not require a crank, easier, more obvious? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote: <snip>

Ease of learning. Whoever could learn and get acusomed to CTRL + SHIFt although there is no logic behind using those keys for selection will easily learn the new way. Just because something was learnt already does not mean there is no better way, especially when it does not follow any logic but "it has always been this way".

' I'm sorry, but this attitude amounts to simple arrogance. You would so easily cast away the learned behavior of the entire group of computer users, simply because you think a particular way is better. wow -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:22:05 Sven Burmeister wrote:

On Friday 08 October 2010 16:06:32 Peter Van Lone wrote: [...]

...

the "tool meant to be used for selecting files" is not accepted/understood or liked much by people.

Is it? I did not see any complains on this list or the kde one over the last few weeks/months.

Just because we don't complain doesn't mean we like it. It sucks!

...

It seems an awkward and unlikely extra bit when we can simply left-click on the thing to select it, and then use ctrl or shift to extend the selection to other objects.

Only if you explain every new computer user that he has to use CTRL and SHIFT for that. Or you add a hint to the GUI and thus make it easy to discover which is what the appearing "+" is.

How many new KDE users are new computer users? IMHO by far the majority of those trying KDE for the first time come from other de's, whether alternatives on Linux (e.g. Gnome, LXDE, Fluxbox etc.), Windows or Mac (in their various iterations). Just about everywhere else that I've come across CTRL-Click (for selecting a non-contiguous range of files) and SHIFT-Click (for selecting a contiguous range) are long-time accepted conventions that are well understood by anyone with a modicum of gui experience. OK, they may not be the most efficient paradigm but they are the most common. Changing that for the sake of change leads to confusion and frustration. Having said that, I *like* KDE 4 and have been using it since 4.0.4 (and exclusively without recourse to 3.x since 4.1.x). I just think some of the default settings are opposite from what they should be, but it's not worth bitching about. Even Windows allows you to change the behaviour from double to single click for launching (ever since they introduced the "web desktop" somewhere around Win 98 - it just wasn't the default mode of operation.

So I claim using CTRL and SHIFT for selecting files is rather less straight- fowrward because you cannot know about it without learning it or reading about it since there are no hints in the GUI. Why CTRL and not ALT? Why SHIFT for selecting one way and CTRL the other, why not the other way around? Why is a key that is used to switch to uppercase used for selecting multiple files, where is the obvious link between the two features to map them to the same key? Where is the logic? Or was it not rather something set-up artificially and learnt rather than a good design usability-wise?

There are only 102-108 keys on a "standard" PC (QWERTY) keyboard and only a few are "modifier" keys which, in pre-gui days, were carried-over (for the most part, with some minor changes) from typewriters and dedicated word- processors (to keep the typists happy). The advent of the gui meant new paradigms and the adoption of some additional uses for the existing modifier keys (Alt-Shift-Ctrl). Some of the key combinations also carried over from mainframe terminals Yes, I know, that means that they're all done for purely historical reasons and because so far no-one has come up with a "better" alternative that is intuitive and easily re-learned by experienced users with a long background in computing. The KDE devs probably argue that they have now come up with that alternative - that is their prerogative. Some who've tried it disagree - that is our prerogative. All we ask is the defaults be set to suit the majority of potential users (those who are familiar with the "current" (or old, depending on your point of view) way of doing things and let those who want to switch to the new paradigm, rather than confusing and frustrating the hell out of people until they figure out how to switch back to their preferred way of doing things.

...

...

Instead the devs chose the new selection tool which is a lot easier to understand for new users which do not know about holding CTRL in order to select multiple files.

says who?

Common sense? How do you know about CTRL being linked to slecting multiple files? Did you guess? Was it obvious? Was it a hint the GUI gave you? You learnt it.

Yes. Many, many years ago. Windows 3.0 circa 1992/93 in fact. Before that, it was all done via the kb - mice were pretty useless with dos-based apps like Lotus 1-2-3 v1 and Wordstar/Word Perfect... ;-) BTW, we still have Tab, Ctrl-Tab, Alt-Tab and Shift-Tab that all do pretty much the same things as they did back then for moving around between tabs, windows, panes, menus, selecting from lists etc. without using the mouse. That is another reason why the Ctrl-click and Shift-click hung around for so long, because Ctrl+Space (or Ctrl-+ and Ctrl- -)and Shift-Up/Down did selection long before mice came along, so keeping the same modifiers for use with the mouse made sense then. Another thing - for most operations, even with a gui, a touch typist will be much faster on the keyboard using shortcuts than by moving one hand to the mouse. All the more reason to maintain consistency of modifier functions between kb and mouse modes of operation. Maybe there aren't too many touch typists among the KDE devs, though - KDE 4 seems to be much more mouse-bound than earlier de's which isn't necessarily A Good Thing(TM). Just my $0.02AUD worth (which is worth a bit more than it used to be given the current strength of our currency ;-) ). I'll go back and lurk in the corner now :-). -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 10/8/2010 7:52 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Is it? I did not see any complains on this list or the kde one over the last few weeks/months.

Just when was the last time you paid the slightest heed to any complaints on this list? (Other than to shout them down, of course). -- _____________________________________ At one time I had a Real Sig. Its been downsized. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 October 2010 23:28:50 John Andersen wrote:

On 10/8/2010 7:52 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Is it? I did not see any complains on this list or the kde one over the last few weeks/months.

Just when was the last time you paid the slightest heed to any complaints on this list?

(Other than to shout them down, of course).

Please read http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org