Re: [SLE] ...and speaking of SuSE / Novell...
On Monday 14 November 2005 07:16 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
On Monday 14 November 2005 03:21, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Don't try to get the average secratary to try Linux. It's not ready for that kind of use.
Steven, I do wish you'd stop flogging this horse, which died several weeks ago.
I don't agree with you. For one thing the thread has taken many turns.
And the above in particular is just bunkum. I actually know of one "average secretary" who is doing just that, and my wife (who can't even remember where she's saved files) gets along perfectly well.
Yes, perhaps she can use it, but what happens when she needs to prepare or use an Excel spreadsheet?
I agree this needs to be actively discussed and in a neutral fashion. The argument could degenerate into an "advocacy" forum, but hopefully will be kept above-board. I happen to agree with the current state of usage. There are many things which work great in *nix desktops. (I won't even agrue servers, since MS has no valid server offering.) Secretaries (and other non-geek workers) can mostly use Linux these days without assistance. As evidenced by my family members and friends using Linux systems, they are able to perform most tasks with ease. There are - however - a few sticky points which IMO are causing the mass adoption necessary. First off is the lack of a unified look/feel for applicaitons. This is an issue in Windows apps, too, but more pronounced in *nix desktops. Take - for example - the file open/save dialogs in Gimp vs. the same in OpenOffice. As another fine example is the sorry state of printer management in Linux. Drivers aside, there needs to be something done to make printing easier from the desktop. For example, opening the printer manager and then requiring a password to reset jobs is not user-friendly. (Oh, and it apparently can't be the same password as root's.) Now, I figure that - instead of just whining - I should do something. First off, I'm putting together an employee forum here at my work site (roughly 400 people) where I plan to introduce Linux and the concept behind OO apps. (Open source, not object oriented.) Second, I'm doing my best to learn C++. As I do, I'll start seeing how I can help the aforementioned projects obtain a better user-level functionality. -- kai ponte www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part
On Monday 14 November 2005 11:18 am, Kai Ponte wrote:
On Monday 14 November 2005 07:16 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
On Monday 14 November 2005 03:21, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Yes, perhaps she can use it, but what happens when she needs to
prepare or use
an Excel spreadsheet?
I agree this needs to be actively discussed and in a neutral fashion. The argument could degenerate into an "advocacy" forum, but hopefully will be kept above-board.
I would prefer to honestly say that OO (OpenOffice) will work perfectly with all Excell spreadsheets. I have looked at neither Excell nor OO spreadsheet in quite some time, but I would bet good money that compatability is far from perfect. Furthermore, I find OO hard to use.
I happen to agree with the current state of usage. There are many things which work great in *nix desktops. (I won't even agrue servers, since MS has no valid server offering.)
That really isn't true. I've seen lots of sites running NT Servers for various purposes. I've also seen major projects switch to Unix and/or Linux servers after a couple years of NT.
Secretaries (and other non-geek workers) can mostly use Linux these days without assistance. As evidenced by my family members and friends using Linux systems, they are able to perform most tasks with ease.
Linux apps such as KMail are every bit as easy to use as their counterpart from the monopolistic software vendor, or easier to use.
There are - however - a few sticky points which IMO are causing the mass adoption necessary.
I assume you mean preventing the mass adoption. Be patient, and we all need to be sure that Linux remains viable enough to feed core developers.
First off is the lack of a unified look/feel for applicaitons. This is an issue in Windows apps, too, but more pronounced in *nix desktops. Take - for example - the file open/save dialogs in Gimp vs. the same in OpenOffice.
I'm mostly concerned with core functionality. Differences in L&F are less significant than blatant lack of functionality. TTTT, the Gimp is not a stellar example of a coherent GUI application. It is quite powerful, but intuitive, it is not!
As another fine example is the sorry state of printer management in Linux. Drivers aside, there needs to be something done to make printing easier from the desktop. For example, opening the printer manager and then requiring a password to reset jobs is not user-friendly. (Oh, and it apparently can't be the same password as root's.)
That really is a security issue that should be addressed by an experience user. Yes, it's a hastel, but in an office, there will be some local jr. guru who knows how to get around that. The trick is usually to give the users the correct group membership. But Linux shall not become the security swiss cheese that the monopolistic OS is.
Now, I figure that - instead of just whining - I should do something. First off, I'm putting together an employee forum here at my work site (roughly 400 people) where I plan to introduce Linux and the concept behind OO apps. (Open source, not object oriented.) Second, I'm doing my best to learn C++. As I do, I'll start seeing how I can help the aforementioned projects obtain a better user-level functionality.
Reporting bugs, including wishlist items is a good way to help. The best approach to getting Linux acceptance that I can think of is to tell people this is about helping eachother, and not expecting some software vendor in the sky to come down and save them. Linux is about cooperation. Convince them that they are part of the product improvement process - because they will be. That they own Linux - because they do. The price they pay is the effort they put into making it work. Steven
On Monday 14 November 2005 16:18, Kai Ponte wrote:
As another fine example is the sorry state of printer management in Linux. Drivers aside, there needs to be something done to make printing easier from the desktop. For example, opening the printer manager and then requiring a password to reset jobs is not user-friendly. (Oh, and it apparently can't be the same password as root's.)
There is certainly an issue here, but part of the problem is a regression. The KPrinter tool is excellent, but SUSE has ditched it (unless you know to type it in specifically) for a (IMHO) less effective YaST-based tool. I have no idea why. There are also other issues with regard to some printer makes which cause problems for new users (eg last time I looked, HP ptal services are not started by default, so that if you set up a new printer that uses those and then reboot, it has suddenly stopped working). On one PC I have, running openSUSE 10, I have set up the same printer twice - it works for a few weeks and then stops, and I have no idea why; it's just happened again. So there are plainly some wrinkles there. The reason for the password is to increase security (cups used to run as the root user, or something), but there is a good argument for that being a setting in the printer setup: "for security reasons you need to choose a printer password - enter it here; if you would like to skip this for ease-of-use reasons, at the risk of some impairment of security, tick this box instead". I think one of the issues is that the enterprise and home-user markets have different priorities - SUSE is mostly for the former, which will probably have some sort of admin who is aware of these issues, and openSUSE could now offer something for the latter (provided there is some mechanism for suggestions along these lines to be taken on board). -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
participants (3)
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Kai Ponte -
Kevin Donnelly -
Steven T. Hatton