Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

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hlarons＠mail.comcat.com

27 Jun 1998 27 Jun '98

17:37

On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:01:31AM +0100, brian.jones3@virgin.net wrote:

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Just some personal opinions.

[snip]

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Finally, there has been a lot of talk about the added value of purchasing a distribution.

Um, guilty as charged. Coming from a background in sales/marketing (no, not software), the "value added" concept is uppermost im my mind, especially because it is the added value that justifies whatever "premium" is charged for a product or service. In the case of software, that would be documentation and tech support (among other things).

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I view the extra cost as a subsidy to SuSE/RH/etc. that allows them to polish the product for more general consumption. If I get some tech. support then great, if I get a nice book then great again.

Well, I have to say that your attitude is all-in-all healthier than mine. As for _general_ consumption, though, I don't think Linux (SuSE's or anyone else's) has a prayer vs MS. Howard Arons -- Powered by SuSE Linux 5.2 -- kernel 2.0.33 Communications by Mutt 0.89 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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fmiller＠lightlink.com

28 Jun 28 Jun

05:30

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Howard Arons wrote:

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On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:01:31AM +0100, brian.jones3@virgin.net wrote:

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Just some personal opinions.

[snip]

...
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about the added value of purchasing a distribution.

Um, guilty as charged. Coming from a background in sales/marketing (no, not software), the "value added" concept is uppermost im my mind, especially because it is the added value that justifies whatever "premium" is charged for a product or service. In the case of software, that would be documentation and tech support (among other things).

...
I view the extra cost as a subsidy to SuSE/RH/etc. that allows them to polish the product for more general consumption. If I get some tech. support then great, if I get a nice book then great again.

Well, I have to say that your attitude is all-in-all healthier than mine. As for _general_ consumption, though, I don't think Linux (SuSE's or anyone else's) has a prayer vs MS.

That all depends on how simple SuSE and others make the install, administration etc. of ALL Linux, as well as ALL software providers! As long as it just about takes an "act of Congress" to install a system, sound drivers, fonts, printers, etc., etc., then you are correct. IF the folks at SuSE and elsewhere get their act together, then Linux will be Bill Gates WORST nightmare!! Fred -- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

hekate＠intergate.bc.ca

27 Jun 27 Jun

22:40

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people. On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Fred A. Miller wrote:

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Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:30:57 -0400 From: "Fred A. Miller" Reply-To: suse-linux-e@suse.com To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Howard Arons wrote:

...
On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:01:31AM +0100, brian.jones3@virgin.net wrote:

...
Just some personal opinions.

[snip]

...
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about the added value of purchasing a distribution.

Um, guilty as charged. Coming from a background in sales/marketing (no, not software), the "value added" concept is uppermost im my mind, especially because it is the added value that justifies whatever "premium" is charged for a product or service. In the case of software, that would be documentation and tech support (among other things).

...
I view the extra cost as a subsidy to SuSE/RH/etc. that allows them to polish the product for more general consumption. If I get some tech. support then great, if I get a nice book then great again.

Well, I have to say that your attitude is all-in-all healthier than mine. As for _general_ consumption, though, I don't think Linux (SuSE's or anyone else's) has a prayer vs MS.

That all depends on how simple SuSE and others make the install, administration etc. of ALL Linux, as well as ALL software providers! As long as it just about takes an "act of Congress" to install a system, sound drivers, fonts, printers, etc., etc., then you are correct. IF the folks at SuSE and elsewhere get their act together, then Linux will be Bill Gates WORST nightmare!!

Fred

-- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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satan3＠home.com

28 Jun 28 Jun

05:54

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

That was much more diplomatic than the way I phrased it. Fortunately I deleted the post before I sent it ;) hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

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It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

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fmiller＠lightlink.com

08:03

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

...

It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly. Fred -- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

beamanj＠novaquest.com

08:41

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

I agree. I am new to the Linux OS, and while I am very impressed with many of its features, the learning curve is very steap. I, myself, am a Systems Developer (working mostly with Win32 operating systems) and I still have a hard time getting Linux to do everything I want it to. Though, I will say this much for Linux--it's a lot more fun than WinNT :-)

...

-----Original Message----- From: owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com [<A HREF="mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On">mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On</A> Behalf Of Fred A. Miller Sent: Sunday, June 28, 1998 1:03 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

...
It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly.

Fred

-- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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fmiller＠lightlink.com

10:43

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

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>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 28/06/98, 03:41:04, beamanj@novaquest.com (Joseph Beaman) wrote regarding RE: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse:

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I agree. I am new to the Linux OS, and while I am very impressed with many of its features, the learning curve is very steap. I, myself, am a Systems Developer (working mostly with Win32 operating systems) and I still have a hard time getting Linux to do everything I want it to. Though, I will say this much for Linux--it's a lot more fun than WinNT :-)

[snip] I agree....it is that! There are some in the Linux/UNIX community who'd rather not see Linux become a main stream OS....snobery defines this attitude well. Simply, it's TOO GOOD to just remain an OS for those who enjoy mucking around at the gut level of an OS, although it should be that also. I've only had Linux for less than 2 weeks, and am not knowledgeable about UNIX either. I got tired of messing around with the StarOffice CD, so copied the CD to the hard drive and managed to get it to install from there. So far, I'm impressed, except for it not having any printer listed except a postscript printer. Time for a few hours sleep, then I'll work on that next. Regards, Fred Systems Admin. Cornell Univ. Press Services fm@cupserv.org fmiller@lightlink.com - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com

16:15

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Joseph Beaman wrote:

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I agree. I am new to the Linux OS, and while I am very impressed with many of its features, the learning curve is very steap. I, myself, am a Systems Developer (working mostly with Win32 operating systems) and I still have a hard time getting Linux to do everything I want it to. Though, I will say this much for Linux--it's a lot more fun than WinNT :-)

hehe, I agree with you on that one:-) Actually, I've had better luck getting things to work in Linux then I have in either Win95 or OS/2 Warp 4! About the only thing I miss in Linux is some of the applications that I use on a regular basis in the other two (Mainly OS/2) operating systems. As far as networking goes, Linux is a lot easier to set up, but it is still a bit weak on UI as far as applications such as Wordprocessors goes. (I still like IBM Works for Letters and things like that). Sure, there is a lot of editors in Linux, but as far as formating a ascii file and converting to a postscript for printing, the learning curve on that is very steep:-( But, I have been exploring Xemacs and from what I've seen of that? -- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

satan3＠home.com

16:29

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated. Leon McClatchey wrote:

...

Joseph Beaman wrote:

...
I agree. I am new to the Linux OS, and while I am very impressed with many of its features, the learning curve is very steap. I, myself, am a Systems Developer (working mostly with Win32 operating systems) and I still have a hard time getting Linux to do everything I want it to. Though, I will say this much for Linux--it's a lot more fun than WinNT :-)

hehe, I agree with you on that one:-) Actually, I've had better luck getting things to work in Linux then I have in either Win95 or OS/2 Warp 4! About the only thing I miss in Linux is some of the applications that I use on a regular basis in the other two (Mainly OS/2) operating systems.

As far as networking goes, Linux is a lot easier to set up, but it is still a bit weak on UI as far as applications such as Wordprocessors goes. (I still like IBM Works for Letters and things like that). Sure, there is a lot of editors in Linux, but as far as formating a ascii file and converting to a postscript for printing, the learning curve on that is very steep:-( But, I have been exploring Xemacs and from what I've seen of that?

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leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com

17:03

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Michael Lankton wrote:

...

What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to

I'm quite aware of that. I figured that out a couple of years ago when I set up RH Linux on my pc. And as far as that goes, I quite enjoyed the administrative tasks or running the system. Then about 6 months ago, I got suse 5.1 and reinstalled Linux on my pc. The only real difference between now and then is that when I first tried Linux, I only had 1 machine and that was set up to run either Linux or OS/2. Well, now my "main server" is still a combination of OS/2 and Linux, but I'm finding myself more in Linux and less in OS/2. (does that say something:-). And I've been working on perfecting the network between Linux and Win95 (never could get os2 to working along those lines). The result of all of that is that I have learned quite a bit about what is involved in truly maintaining a system:-) (Still got a ways to go too:-)

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linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about

So who is whining? Linux has something that I have been looking for for a long time! It has the capability of "separating" the users which other operating systems do not have. My son likes to experiment a bit whenever he gets on the keyboard. And there has been more than one time that I have gotten on in either os2 or win95 and found the system layout changed. In Linux I don't have to worry about that, he can change his "desktop" or whatever and not have any affect on anyone else who uses the pc:-) I plan to get a 3rd machine in the near future which will be a dedicated os2 machine. So my plans at this point are to have a total of 3 machines, Linux, Win95, and Os/2. The main thing in all of that, is that the linux box will be the main network "boss". The reason for that is quite obvious at this point in time:-) But My daughter likes Win95, my son is quite adaptable, he's at the point where he can get around comfortably in all three operating systems (btw he's 12). My wife likes OS/2 for the most part, though she is learning to get around in Xfree as well:-)

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something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

Either that or have a lot of fun "overcoming obstacles":-) -- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

hekate＠intergate.bc.ca

10:51

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

I'm not sure what Michael meant, but with all due respect I'm sick of this thread. ( That doesn't mean everyone should stop talking about it, it just means for me personally it's time for me to hit my 'd' key cause it's been beaten to death a zillion times in so many different groups it gets tiresome.) Linux has a bright future and present and is always growing. I think to constantly compare it to M$$$ is absurd. I think to complain about a learning curve is absurd when you switch OS's. I , personally, get sick of people saying what Linux is NOT. I am just so pleased with what it is. If people think Linux should just be 'Windows 98 but Unix' then they need to think differently. The OS's are different. Maybe it isn't for everyone, yet, and some people are just better off using Windows, because it *does* make it easier to just point and click your way through life without ever having ot know how and why things work. In any case, for me it's prefereble to have some people not use Linux (for a while anyway) if for no other reason, than I don't have to listen to all this whining from people who are so Microsoft trained that they just can't seem to adjust. On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Leon McClatchey wrote:

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Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:03:09 -0500 From: Leon McClatchey Reply-To: suse-linux-e@suse.com To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Michael Lankton wrote:

...
What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to

I'm quite aware of that. I figured that out a couple of years ago when I set up RH Linux on my pc. And as far as that goes, I quite enjoyed the administrative tasks or running the system. Then about 6 months ago, I got suse 5.1 and reinstalled Linux on my pc. The only real difference between now and then is that when I first tried Linux, I only had 1 machine and that was set up to run either Linux or OS/2. Well, now my "main server" is still a combination of OS/2 and Linux, but I'm finding myself more in Linux and less in OS/2. (does that say something:-). And I've been working on perfecting the network between Linux and Win95 (never could get os2 to working along those lines). The result of all of that is that I have learned quite a bit about what is involved in truly maintaining a system:-) (Still got a ways to go too:-)

...
linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about

So who is whining? Linux has something that I have been looking for for a long time! It has the capability of "separating" the users which other operating systems do not have. My son likes to experiment a bit whenever he gets on the keyboard. And there has been more than one time that I have gotten on in either os2 or win95 and found the system layout changed. In Linux I don't have to worry about that, he can change his "desktop" or whatever and not have any affect on anyone else who uses the pc:-)

I plan to get a 3rd machine in the near future which will be a dedicated os2 machine. So my plans at this point are to have a total of 3 machines, Linux, Win95, and Os/2. The main thing in all of that, is that the linux box will be the main network "boss". The reason for that is quite obvious at this point in time:-) But My daughter likes Win95, my son is quite adaptable, he's at the point where he can get around comfortably in all three operating systems (btw he's 12). My wife likes OS/2 for the most part, though she is learning to get around in Xfree as well:-)

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something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

Either that or have a lot of fun "overcoming obstacles":-)

-- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box)

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jonathan＠aracnet.net

29 Jun 29 Jun

23:05

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

On 28-Jun-98 Leon McClatchey wrote:

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tried Linux, I only had 1 machine and that was set up to run either Linux or OS/2. Well, now my "main server" is still a combination of OS/2 and Linux, but I'm finding myself more in Linux and less in OS/2. (does that say something:-).

I switched cold turkey from OS/2 (which I really really liked) to Linux. I haven't reinstalled OS/2 and may never do so. But I really really miss the WPS. That was intuition itself with some power behind it! Window managers have to come a long way. I tried ICEWM but it's mostly decorations, and no integration, from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

...

My wife likes OS/2 for the most part, though she is learning to get around in Xfree as well:-)

Sounds like it's time to install XFree86-OS/2! (Check my page for links, I haven't seen it in about a year, though) --- jonathan@aracnet.net <A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich"><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich</A">http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich If you just try long enough and hard enough, you can always manage to boot yourself in the posterior. -- A. J. Liebling - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

tanc＠cuug.ab.ca

30 Jun 30 Jun

04:23

New subject: Window Manager (was Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse)

While we are at it, I am just wondering how many people are using Motif Window Manager or OpenWindows. How is the mwm from Lesstif? Regards, C. J. Tan On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 jonathan@aracnet.net wrote:

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On 28-Jun-98 Leon McClatchey wrote:

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tried Linux, I only had 1 machine and that was set up to run either Linux or OS/2. Well, now my "main server" is still a combination of OS/2 and Linux, but I'm finding myself more in Linux and less in OS/2. (does that say something:-).

I switched cold turkey from OS/2 (which I really really liked) to Linux. I haven't reinstalled OS/2 and may never do so.

But I really really miss the WPS. That was intuition itself with some power behind it! Window managers have to come a long way. I tried ICEWM but it's mostly decorations, and no integration, from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

...
My wife likes OS/2 for the most part, though she is learning to get around in Xfree as well:-)

Sounds like it's time to install XFree86-OS/2! (Check my page for links, I haven't seen it in about a year, though)

--- jonathan@aracnet.net <A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich"><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich</A">http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich

If you just try long enough and hard enough, you can always manage to boot yourself in the posterior. -- A. J. Liebling

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Tan E-mail: cjtan@acm.org Telephone: 1-403-220-8038 tanc@cuug.ab.ca 1-403-606-4257 URL: <A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc"><A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A">http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc Facsimile: 1-403-284-1980 "An engineer made programmer is one who attempts to solve a problem, A programmer made engineer is one who knows how to solve a problem." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com

1 Jul 1 Jul

02:27

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Linux & Other OStwo

jonathan@aracnet.net wrote:

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I switched cold turkey from OS/2 (which I really really liked) to Linux. I haven't reinstalled OS/2 and may never do so.

I thought about it, but there are too many applications that I have set up and am using in OS/2. But lately, I spend more time in Linux and less time in OS/2. Lately, in Os/2, I generally am in it only long enough to do a few books (I've got a couple of payroll spreadsheets in ibmworks that I haven't gotten around to converting into something the spreadsheets in linux can do). Once in awhile, I do a little bit in QBX (Dos application) or perhap a little system maintenance. All my Windows applications, I transferred over to my win95 machine, (I just don't like the way windows screws up my system (even in warp4)). Lately though, with the network up and running, I've been thinking about transferring them back, the only real drawback to that is that HPFS is read only in Linux (is it in the plans to make in read/write in the near future?).

...

But I really really miss the WPS. That was intuition itself with some power behind it! Window managers have to come a long way. I tried ICEWM but it's mostly decorations, and no integration, from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

My only complaint about WPS was that unless you went to 3rd world utilities, you could not set up user profiles for the desktop. Other than that, I still believe that Win95 got their desktop idea from Ibm's os/2:-)

...

Sounds like it's time to install XFree86-OS/2! (Check my page for links, I haven't seen it in about a year, though)

I have it, and installed it, but have it disabled in os/2, didn't feel that it really worked well in that environment. Didn't really like having to run a driver to enable it. Xfree in Linux is much more versatile and a whole lot easier to work with:-) -- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

jonathan＠aracnet.net

03:36

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Linux & Other OStwo

On 01-Jul-98 Leon McClatchey wrote:

...

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I switched cold turkey from OS/2 (which I really really liked) to Linux. I haven't reinstalled OS/2 and may never do so.

I thought about it, but there are too many applications that I have set up and am using in OS/2. But lately, I spend more time in Linux and less time in OS/2.

I really miss DeScribe. I should try it in Wine... The Win32 version is SMOKING fast, about as fast as Notepad (yes faster than WormPad)

...

the only real drawback to that is that HPFS is read only in Linux (is it in the plans to make in read/write in the near future?).

No, not from the sounds of it. However, the last OS/2 configuration I had eliminated HPFS altogether. Get yourself the Ext2FS driver for OS/2 and read/write in Linux AND OS/2. It worked really well, and no drawbacks. Remember to rem out the HPFS.IFS driver.

...

My only complaint about WPS was that unless you went to 3rd world utilities, you could not set up user profiles for the desktop. Other than that, I still believe that Win95 got their desktop idea from Ibm's os/2:-)

Once I made an entire simple PIM using nothing but desktop objects and settings (one "To-do" folder, sorted by an EA of [1,2,3,4 or 5] with appropriate icons, templates for new items, data file objects for memos/notes, unfortunately no calendar, but IBMWorks PIM was great at that part.) I ask again, any Window Manager that can do that? Please??

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Sounds like it's time to install XFree86-OS/2! (Check my page for links, I haven't seen it in about a year, though)

I have it, and installed it, but have it disabled in os/2, didn't feel that it really worked well in that environment. Didn't really like having to run a driver to enable it. Xfree in Linux is much more versatile and a whole lot easier to work with:-)

I didn't like it not being seamless. It was a rush to run a completely foreign environment on OS/2 though. Try networking it and setting the X display to the OS/2 machine, and running the X program off the Linux server! That's seriously cool! Let me know how it works. --- jonathan@aracnet.net <A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich"><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich</A">http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich "I thought you were trying to get into shape." "I am. The shape I've selected is a triangle." - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

brian.jones3＠virgin.net

28 Jun 28 Jun

17:36

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Michael Lankton wrote:

...

What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

Who's whining ? All I've seen are people offering constructive comments on how to enable a broader spectrum of users to become involved in the community. That and enthusiasts enjoying each new challenge. I have to confess, though, that I hadn't realised Windows has evolved to such a level of sophistication and robustness that it doesn't require system administration. Brian. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

fmiller＠lightlink.com

19:16

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

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>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 28/06/98, 12:36:53, Brian Jones wrote regarding Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse:

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Michael Lankton wrote:

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What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant

to

...
be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

...

Who's whining ? All I've seen are people offering constructive comments on how to enable a broader spectrum of users to become involved in the community. That and enthusiasts enjoying each new challenge.

Correct! NO "whining," only want to see Linux get better! And, from a couple of discussions I've had with the folks at SuSE, it WILL.

...

I have to confess, though, that I hadn't realized Windows has evolved to such a level of sophistication and robustness that it doesn't require system administration.

Yes....My thoughts as well! Keeping NT up and running over the past 2+ years at work isn't a daily stuggle, but close. I removed Exchange Server (one of MickySofts biggest blunders) and replaced it with SL-Mail, who is by the way, looking at porting to Linux. It's a VERY good mail server. I haven't had Linux up very long, true, however, it's been MUCH more solid since I installed it than NT ever was! I installed it without "cracking the manual," and decided to keep it.<G> By the way, there is the unfortunate part of StarOffice that (presently) only supports postscript printers, which I'll work around one way or the other, but so far (since I installed it in the wee hours of this morning), I'm VERY impressed with it! It is quicker under Linux than under Win95 or NT. Someone here recently complained about it being slow to come up. It's up and running in around 10 secs. on this box, a Tyan S1846 BX MOB with 333Mhz. CPU. Regards, Fred Systems Admin. Cornell Univ. Press Services fm@cupserv.org fmiller@lightlink.com - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

chris123＠netcom.ca

06:45

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Someone here recently complained

...

about it being slow to come up. It's up and running in around 10 secs. on this box, a Tyan S1846 BX MOB with 333Mhz. CPU.

for us in the real world with a P133/32 megs ram it takes over a minute to even get to the spash screen and no other programs up. I use it and cant live without it. Cant wait for WP8/99US this summer and the Suite later next year. best regards ch - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

brian.jones3＠virgin.net

19:17

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Chris Herrnberger wrote:

...

for us in the real world with a P133/32 megs ram it takes over a minute to even get to the spash screen and no other programs up. I use it and cant live without it. Cant wait for WP8/99US this summer and the Suite later next year.

The good news is that it's memory that will make the biggest difference here. Good news because the memory you need to make a difference is much cheaper than 333Mhz chips.

fmiller＠lightlink.com

29 Jun 29 Jun

03:37

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Chris Herrnberger wrote:

...

Someone here recently complained

...
about it being slow to come up. It's up and running in around 10 secs. on this box, a Tyan S1846 BX MOB with 333Mhz. CPU.

for us in the real world with a P133/32 megs ram it takes over a minute to even get to the spash screen and no other programs up. I use it and cant live without it. Cant wait for WP8/99US this summer and the Suite later next year.

Yes....I'm going to take a long look at it also! Fred -- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

hattons＠cpkwebser5.ncr.disa.mil

02:32

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Michael Lankton wrote:

...

What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

<SoapBox> I came to Linux in order to learn more about Unix system administration. I use Solaris at work, and figured that Linux would be a good place to start. I could have bought Solaris x86 for $99 as a student. I would have done so, except I found Linux to be capable of much more than I had imagined. I have been configuring systems since '92. I also worked on guided missile, digital electronics for 5 years. In addition I have a CS degree with a concentration in hardware. I don't mind configuring systems, and I'm pretty good at it. I have been involved with NT since it was in beta. I believe that Unix, and open systems in general, are superior to NT for both technical and economic reasons. The big advantage that NT has over Linux is the ease with which a novice can configure it. Linux is not nearly as easy to configure. Grant you it is capable of doing a lot more than NT. When one asserts that one operating system is superior to another, he is basically saying that the better OS is more reliable, efficient, and capable of performing a wider variety of tasks. One of the functions that is being demanded of OS's these days is to provide easy to use configuration tools. I see nothing wrong with this. Ease of configuration makes sense if the OS is to move beyond the enclave of highly specialized computer scientist. There are many very intelligent people who would love to use Linux except they don't want to spend hours or even days trying to configure their printer. Personally, I want to start using it for Mathematica. If I am in the middle of generating a very complex animation of a physical system I don't want to have to take time out to try and figure out how to reconfigure some aspect of my OS. I have the feeling that the people who don't like all the talk about Linux becoming user-friendly are afraid they will loose some perceived advantage over others if this happens. These are perhaps the same people who feel that they are smarter than everybody around them because others don't know as much about computers. This is the "if you aren't an expert in my field, you can't be very smart" syndrome. There is also the "what are you doing on this road with your horseless carriage? You're scaring my horses" syndrome. You guys who want to continue to use vi to write your doctoral thesis are free to do so. I will still use vi to edit my /etc/hosts file. Linux can beat the pants off Micro$oft in the open market, if it becomes more user friendly. At work we have several Compaq Proliant 7000s with 4 CPU's, 4 Gig of RAM, 450 Gig of hard drive and Windoze NT running on them. This is enough power to handle most data processing need of a medium size organization. All the file and print servers in the Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) are running NT. All the user work stations are running NT. There are many people pushing very hard to try to do everything on NT. The biggest advantage I can see NT has is its GUI configuration tool set. M$ did a good job of designing the overall architecture of NT. It is very modular, uses a micro-kernel concept, and uses a pretty good VMM. Some of these features are not part of the current Linux architecture, as I understand it. This means that in the short run NT is probably easier to modify and improve. There is no way that DISA could implement the same NT based system they currently have on Linux without a support staff with far more computer knowledge than the one that they have. Making machines do things that are difficult, time consuming, or boring is the whole idea of computers. If Linux and the GPL concept is so great, (and I believe it is) then Linux can be made to help the user configure his system in a way superior to M$. </SoapBox> Sorry if this rambles a bit. I need to think about these ideas more so that I can find better words. Steve -- [<A HREF="http://counter.li.org"><A HREF="http://counter.li.org</A">http://counter.li.org] Yo Bill! Doo-bee, doo-bee, doo. THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man. - Thomas Paine, _The Age of Reason_ [L]et [the charter] be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which; the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. - Thomas Paine, *Common Sense*, February 14th, 1776 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

satan3＠home.com

03:23

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

I came to Linux in order to learn more about Unix system administration. I use Solaris at work,

I use OSF1 at school and have worked in BSDi a little, and frankly, nothing makes you appreciate linux more than a commercial unix. You make some good points. I think change is unsettling, especially when you are happy with something the way it is. Sometimes things turn out ok and you went through all that anxiety for nothing, and other times it marks the end of a period of your life you can never go back to. I'll paraphrase here because I'm quoting from memory, but Charles Manson said once in an interview "I was crazy back when it meant somethin'. Hell, everyone's crazy nowadays." I think people who have been using linux awhile look around and wonder where all these people came from. Heh, it's good for the os, it was just kind of cool when linux was our little secret. But those days are gone, and frankly we all benefit from that. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

mhtexcollins＠ccms.net

03:33

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

YES. YES, YES,:!!! Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

Michael Lankton wrote:

...
What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

<SoapBox> I came to Linux in order to learn more about Unix system administration. I use Solaris at work, and figured that Linux would be a good place to start. I could have bought Solaris x86 for $99 as a student. I would have done so, except I found Linux to be capable of much more than I had imagined. I have been configuring systems since '92. I also worked on guided missile, digital electronics for 5 years. In addition I have a CS degree with a concentration in hardware. I don't mind configuring systems, and I'm pretty good at it.

I have been involved with NT since it was in beta. I believe that Unix, and open systems in general, are superior to NT for both technical and economic reasons. The big advantage that NT has over Linux is the ease with which a novice can configure it. Linux is not nearly as easy to configure. Grant you it is capable of doing a lot more than NT. When one asserts that one operating system is superior to another, he is basically saying that the better OS is more reliable, efficient, and capable of performing a wider variety of tasks. One of the functions that is being demanded of OS's these days is to provide easy to use configuration tools. I see nothing wrong with this. Ease of configuration makes sense if the OS is to move beyond the enclave of highly specialized computer scientist. There are many very intelligent people who would love to use Linux except they don't want to spend hours or even days trying to configure their printer. Personally, I want to start using it for Mathematica. If I am in the middle of generating a very complex animation of a physical system I don't want to have to take time out to try and figure out how to reconfigure some aspect of my OS.

I have the feeling that the people who don't like all the talk about Linux becoming user-friendly are afraid they will loose some perceived advantage over others if this happens. These are perhaps the same people who feel that they are smarter than everybody around them because others don't know as much about computers. This is the "if you aren't an expert in my field, you can't be very smart" syndrome. There is also the "what are you doing on this road with your horseless carriage? You're scaring my horses" syndrome. You guys who want to continue to use vi to write your doctoral thesis are free to do so. I will still use vi to edit my /etc/hosts file.

Linux can beat the pants off Micro$oft in the open market, if it becomes more user friendly. At work we have several Compaq Proliant 7000s with 4 CPU's, 4 Gig of RAM, 450 Gig of hard drive and Windoze NT running on them. This is enough power to handle most data processing need of a medium size organization. All the file and print servers in the Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) are running NT. All the user work stations are running NT. There are many people pushing very hard to try to do everything on NT. The biggest advantage I can see NT has is its GUI configuration tool set. M$ did a good job of designing the overall architecture of NT. It is very modular, uses a micro-kernel concept, and uses a pretty good VMM. Some of these features are not part of the current Linux architecture, as I understand it. This means that in the short run NT is probably easier to modify and improve. There is no way that DISA could implement the same NT based system they currently have on Linux without a support staff with far more computer knowledge than the one that they have.

Making machines do things that are difficult, time consuming, or boring is the whole idea of computers. If Linux and the GPL concept is so great, (and I believe it is) then Linux can be made to help the user configure his system in a way superior to M$. </SoapBox>

Sorry if this rambles a bit. I need to think about these ideas more so that I can find better words.

Steve

--

[<A HREF="http://counter.li.org"><A HREF="http://counter.li.org</A">http://counter.li.org] Yo Bill! Doo-bee, doo-bee, doo.

THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man. - Thomas Paine, _The Age of Reason_

[L]et [the charter] be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which; the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. - Thomas Paine, *Common Sense*, February 14th, 1776

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

-- - - -- IMHO BEST Beginners book so far. Sams' Teach Yourself Linux in 24 hours. redhat press. - Celis Gran Cru and Linux; Nowhere but South Austin Texas. - - - TEX <A HREF="http://www.ccms.net/~mhtexcollins/78704.htm"><A HREF="http://www.ccms.net/~mhtexcollins/78704.htm</A">http://www.ccms.net/~mhtexcollins/78704.htm __ / / __ _ _ _ _ __ __ / /__ / / / \// //_// \ \/ / /____/ /_/ /_/\/ /___/ /_/\_\ ...for IQs GREATER than 95/98?... --- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

hattons＠cpkwebser5.ncr.disa.mil

03:20

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Michael Lankton wrote:

...

What you all need to take into consideration is that linux is a unix clone. Unix systems need to be ADMINISTERED, they were never meant to be desktop boxes. Joe User on a unix network runs his applications, but the sysadmin is responsible for all the administration tasks. Well, if you are running a unix box at home, regardless of whether it's freebsd, linux or whatever, you have willingly chosen to become a unix system administrator. I don't understand all the whining about something you've voluntarily chosen to do. If people come to linux expecting a windows that isn't windows, they are going to be disappointed and frustrated.

tanc＠cuug.ab.ca

28 Jun 28 Jun

16:35

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

I have seen many people mentioning about word processors on this list and I am just curious how many people are LaTeX or TeX or *roff users. If you are writing scientific documents, I don't think there is any word processors in the market that can beat LaTeX which may people do not consider as a word processor but rather as a text processor. If you are writing regular documents, like company letters, reports, or articles, I think LaTeX is not too difficult to learn either. Once you get hooked onto it, you'll probably find that it's very powerful. I was introduced to LaTeX by a Physics professor back when I was a first year engineering student. But I didn't start using it till about a year ago. Now, LaTeX is what I use most! Ocassionally, I may use FrameMaker. If you are looking for a low cost solution for creating documents, I don't think you can beat HTML and LaTeX. And I don't think either one of them is hard to learn. Go out there and pick up books published by Springer-Verlag and you'll find a lot of them are published using LaTeX. If you are a computer science student or engineering student, I doubt you'll ever regret learning it. Regards, C. J. Tan On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Leon McClatchey wrote:

...

Joseph Beaman wrote:

...
I agree. I am new to the Linux OS, and while I am very impressed with many of its features, the learning curve is very steap. I, myself, am a Systems Developer (working mostly with Win32 operating systems) and I still have a hard time getting Linux to do everything I want it to. Though, I will say this much for Linux--it's a lot more fun than WinNT :-)

hehe, I agree with you on that one:-) Actually, I've had better luck getting things to work in Linux then I have in either Win95 or OS/2 Warp 4! About the only thing I miss in Linux is some of the applications that I use on a regular basis in the other two (Mainly OS/2) operating systems.

As far as networking goes, Linux is a lot easier to set up, but it is still a bit weak on UI as far as applications such as Wordprocessors goes. (I still like IBM Works for Letters and things like that). Sure, there is a lot of editors in Linux, but as far as formating a ascii file and converting to a postscript for printing, the learning curve on that is very steep:-( But, I have been exploring Xemacs and from what I've seen of that?

-- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box)

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leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com

29 Jun 29 Jun

03:07

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

C. J. Kenneth Tan wrote:

...

I have seen many people mentioning about word processors on this list and I am just curious how many people are LaTeX or TeX or *roff users. If you are writing scientific documents, I don't think there is any word

I have glanced at Latex and to tell you the truth, from what little bit I looked at, it does look like it can be very useful. I've also looked at HTML as a possibility as well. Both as far as capabilities goes, does have a lot of potential. But the only real problem would be trying to remember all the codes to get the format that you want, and for a letter? For instance, In my land letters, I do put a header on each page, and this header would contain my statistics (Name, address, phone, email, etc) as well as the current date (coded so a template could be used). This would be centered and in bold, probably about 16pt on the font. Then the reciever's address would be left justified, bold and in about 14pt. As far as the body goes, that would depend on what is being said, but for the most part would be done in 12pt and fully justified. The signature would then be centered and in 14pt Bold. All that would be in the footer would be the Page Number (coded) Centered and in 12pt bold. The reason I don't like to drop below 12pt is because some of the folks I write to, well their eyesight would have a hard time handling the smaller fonts:-( I do have a book (Linux Unleashed) that does talk a little bit about latex, and I think I can get the line formats from that?, but as far as the document split up, well, in HTML, I guess I would have to use "H1-H4", but I couldn't find anything in what I have on hand how to set up a header/footer in Latex. Then I just came back from a bookstore (looking for a book on Latex) and they didn't know what I was talking about:-( That is really the only reason that I was looking for something that is a little more user friendly (my dos/win/os2 background rearing its ugly head:-)

...

think LaTeX is not too difficult to learn either. Once you get hooked onto it, you'll probably find that it's very powerful.

I don't doubt that one bit:-), Just from what little bit I've played with and checked out, I could see that as far as its total capbilities goes, I probably wouldn't use but about 100n a regular basis:-) -- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

jonathan＠aracnet.net

23:24

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

On 29-Jun-98 Leon McClatchey wrote: I'm a poor example here, I really liked LaTeX but haven't used it in quite a few months.

...

...
I have seen many people mentioning about word processors on this list and I am just curious how many people are LaTeX or TeX or *roff users. If you are writing scientific documents, I don't think there is any word

I have glanced at Latex and to tell you the truth, from what little bit I looked at, it does look like it can be very useful. I've also looked at HTML as a possibility as well. Both as far as capabilities goes, does have a lot of potential. But the only real problem would be trying to remember all the codes to

It's not so bad... most of the time you just type and let it do the formatting. It turns out to be right more often than I do...

...

get the format that you want, and for a letter? For instance, In my land letters,

(From memory) I think there is a "template" that contains simple and basic letter layouts.

...

I do have a book (Linux Unleashed) that does talk a little bit about latex, and I think I can get the line formats from that?, but as far as the document split up, well, in HTML, I guess I would have to use "H1-H4", but I couldn't find anything in what I have on hand how to set up a header/footer in Latex.

Then I just came back from a bookstore (looking for a book on Latex) and they didn't know what I was talking about:-( That is really the only reason that I was looking for something that is a little more user friendly (my dos/win/os2 background rearing its ugly head:-)

Get "A Gentle Introduction to LaTeX" which is an electronic book, I completely forget where to find it though. It was great! Try SunSite, obviously.

...

...
think LaTeX is not too difficult to learn either. Once you get hooked onto it, you'll probably find that it's very powerful.

I don't doubt that one bit:-), Just from what little bit I've played with and checked out, I could see that as far as its total capbilities goes, I probably wouldn't use but about 100n a regular basis:-)

Or less! I made a nifty little template that let me do shadow-boxed quotes, big left margins to account for a printer glitch, etc, etc, and it was only about 20-30 lines of header coding. I just needed to paste that at the beginning and start typing after that. --- jonathan@aracnet.net <A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich"><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich</A">http://members.xoom.com/JMarkevich San Francisco isn't what it used to be, and it never was. -- Herb Caen - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com

1 Jul 1 Jul

02:40

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Latex Questions

jonathan@aracnet.net wrote:

...

(From memory) I think there is a "template" that contains simple and basic letter layouts.

I did look at a couple of applications here in Suse 5.1 (Lyx and Xcoral). And yes, I did find letter templates in both. The only problem with the templates in Lyx was that it was all in German, so I couldn't really understand what did what. I also tried the one in Xcoral, and that one did work a little bit better. Except, that the command for "myaddress" wants to right justify and will not let you do anything else with it. I tried to set up Xcoral for headers, but could never get into the "header area". (Perhaps a bit of wasted paper, but I like to center "myaddress" in the header, and be able to include a datecode at the bottom of the 4-6 lines for the address). Also, in one or the other (perhaps both), everything looked double spaced on the screen, and I could not find anything to get it back to single spacing:-(

...

Or less! I made a nifty little template that let me do shadow-boxed quotes, big left margins to account for a printer glitch, etc, etc, and it was only about 20-30 lines of header coding. I just needed to paste that at the beginning and start typing after that.

I would be interested in seeing that:-) That's part of the problem that I've been having, not being able to see how the different commands are used. -- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

tanc＠cuug.ab.ca

05:32

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Latex Questions

If you are looking for a "template", I suggest that you try using the letter class file. That way, it is guaranteed that you still know how to do your work when you have to move to another machine without something like Lyx or Xcoral. Check out the LaTeX books. They all have documentation on what are the default class files that are available on the "default" LaTeX installation. If what you want is not in the "default" installation, then you might want to search www.tex.ac.uk for a style file or class file that someone else has created. The main (and very important) idea behind LaTeX is you are only concerned with the content. Not so much the way it looks (if at all). Regards, C. J. Tan On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Leon McClatchey wrote:

...

jonathan@aracnet.net wrote:

...
(From memory) I think there is a "template" that contains simple and basic letter layouts.

I did look at a couple of applications here in Suse 5.1 (Lyx and Xcoral). And yes, I did find letter templates in both. The only problem with the templates in Lyx was that it was all in German, so I couldn't really understand what did what.

I also tried the one in Xcoral, and that one did work a little bit better. Except, that the command for "myaddress" wants to right justify and will not let you do anything else with it. I tried to set up Xcoral for headers, but could never get into the "header area". (Perhaps a bit of wasted paper, but I like to center "myaddress" in the header, and be able to include a datecode at the bottom of the 4-6 lines for the address).

Also, in one or the other (perhaps both), everything looked double spaced on the screen, and I could not find anything to get it back to single spacing:-(

...
Or less! I made a nifty little template that let me do shadow-boxed quotes, big left margins to account for a printer glitch, etc, etc, and it was only about 20-30 lines of header coding. I just needed to paste that at the beginning and start typing after that.

I would be interested in seeing that:-) That's part of the problem that I've been having, not being able to see how the different commands are used.

-- cya l8r Leon McClatchey leonmcclatchey@homemail.com Linux User 78912 (Linux Box)

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brian.jones3＠virgin.net

28 Jun 28 Jun

10:20

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

...
It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly.

I have only been using Linux for a very short time since I've only had a computer at home for a very short time. I am computer literate as I write simulation software but I am no system administrator/kernel hacker/etc. Everyone is familiar with the Linux community spirit where problems get fixed fast, people queue up on lists like this to offer solutions and so on, but the thing that has impressed me most is how fast the polish is being applied to the products: the first time I configured an X server was last summer I think and it scared the life out of me, the last time I configured one it configured itself. Setting up PPP with kppp in KDE is no harder than doing it in Windows and you get more functionality. I get the impression that the gap in out-of-the-box usability between Linux & Windows is narrowing rapidly & while we may never beat Bill, at least we won't implore people to try the OS & end up scaring them off. This also requires that we fight the urge to be intellectual snobs - every problem is trivial when you know the answer but when you're a newcomer you have 4 CDs of potential problems and no knowledge of even one answer. An important factor in usability is the documentation quality & this really seems to be becoming part of the Linux culture. While man pages will probably always be cryptic and Howtos will always have outdated sections, the quantity (and quality) of practical, hand-holding documentation has staggered me. There are, of course, gaps so when you find one at the very least flag it or better still fill it when you know how to. There have been complaints about the English in the SuSE book - if there is a part that is hard to understand because of that, it would take seconds for a native English speaker to correct it & when I get my copy back I may do just that. Again, just some personal opinions. Brian. P.S. Fred, I installed StarOffice from a download so I can't offer any advice re the CD other than to copy the Office40_install directory onto your hard disk if you have room. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

hattons＠cpkwebser5.ncr.disa.mil

14:50

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Brian Jones wrote: [Agree, Snip, agree, snip]

...

There have been complaints about the English in the SuSE book - if there is a part that is hard to understand because of that, it would take seconds for a native English speaker to correct it & when I get my copy back I may do just that.

Brian, RE the snipped stuff: I fully agree with you. The reason my boss is an M$ minion is because his Ph.D. is in Biochemistry. He has an IQ of at least 145. To him using an OS that he needs to spend hours just trying to figure out how to get the resolution on the display correct is a complete waste of time. He wants to set up systems that the customer can use. He also wants to hire people with degrees in English, psychology, etc., and teach them enough about the computer systems that they can master the development tools necessary for them to produce the final system for the customer. One woman in our MCSE course has a degree in elementary education. She is catching onto M$ very quickly. If I put her in front of a Linux box with just the command line she would be completely lost. I do my development on NT systems at work and think they are as unstable as DOS. It is not clear whether the problems result form NT being bad or the applications running on NT. At first NT seems easier to use when running installs and configuring systems. Once I get down in the weeds I begin the appreciate the Unix philosophy. Unix is far more flexible. My biggest complaint with NT has nothing to do with ease of use, and everything to do with open systems. Most end users and many systems administrators don't see the value of open system standards. People begin to really appreciate these issues when they are forced to work between incompatible platforms. Also the far-thinking individuals who understand the long-term implications of one software vendor controlling the way we use computers and develop software see that M$ is a very unhealthy thing for the future of computing. RE the above quoted stuff: The English *is* a bit odd at times in the book. I have never found the English to be the problem when reading the book though. The problem I have is that it is not as polished as it could be. I write documentation at work because I have to. I know that the documentation I produce should be greatly revised by a professional technical writer. The S.u.S.E. book is a very good engineer's draft. I believe that It should be revised by a technical writer. These people are experts at communicating ideas. I am not trying to discourage the the authors of the S.u.S.E. book. I could never write such a book in my native language. These guys wrote the book in a language which is not their native language. My hat is off to them. I am not criticizing to condemn, I am criticizing to improve. Steve -- [<A HREF="http://counter.li.org"><A HREF="http://counter.li.org</A">http://counter.li.org] Yo Bill! Doo-bee, doo-bee, doo. THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man. - Thomas Paine, _The Age of Reason_ [L]et [the charter] be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which; the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. - Thomas Paine, *Common Sense*, February 14th, 1776 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

weissel＠jupiter.ph-cip.uni-koeln.de

12:56

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, fmiller@lightlink.com produced:

...

...
It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly.

Well, while I belive I am somewhat versed in Unix when I first installed Linux I tend to belive the most important bit is to read the manual, reread as neccessary and to take your time. Explore the menues. Read the help on every bit. At least the first time around. If you belive computers should be easier to operate than cars, (where you *have* to take lessons!), then do away with that funny 'keyboard' stuff and just have a mouse with 1 button. :-) User-friendly for me is the possibility to check and choose (or choose not) every package there is. Even more user-friendly would be if YaST would say what exactly it does (switch via commandline), e.g. "copying /usr/lib/zoneinfo/Europe/Berlin to /usr/lib/zoneinfo/localtime" so I could easily learn to get rid of these crutches --- they are great to learn walking, but I often want not to *have* to use them, Oh, go and make it as opaque and 'intelligent' and 'all the user has to know is how to operate the power-on switch and the coffe-cup holder' ... as long as one can switch it off with ease. IMHO. -Wolfgang -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

fmiller＠lightlink.com

30 Jun 30 Jun

02:26

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

...

Hi!

Trying to kill the keyboard, fmiller@lightlink.com produced:

...
...
It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly.

Well, while I belive I am somewhat versed in Unix when I first installed Linux I tend to belive the most important bit is to read the manual, reread as neccessary and to take your time. Explore the menues. Read the help on every bit. At least the first time around.

[snip]

...

Oh, go and make it as opaque and 'intelligent' and 'all the user has to know is how to operate the power-on switch and the coffe-cup holder' ... as long as one can switch it off with ease. IMHO.

As I said in another post, and I believe is where SuSE and others are "going," is Linux is capable of supporting both type of users and should. It deserves to be main stream. Fred -- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

gecko＠benham.net

18:15

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

On 28-Jun-98 Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

...

Well, while I belive I am somewhat versed in Unix when I first installed Linux I tend to belive the most important bit is to read the manual, reread as neccessary and to take your time. Explore the menues. Read the help on every bit. At least the first time around. [snip] User-friendly for me is the possibility to check and choose (or choose not) every package there is. Even more user-friendly would be if YaST would say what exactly it does (switch via commandline), e.g. "copying /usr/lib/zoneinfo/Europe/Berlin to /usr/lib/zoneinfo/localtime" so I could easily learn to get rid of these crutches --- they are great to learn walking, but I often want not to *have* to use them,

The majority of the consumers won't agree. They want "Plug-n-Play" in EVERYTHING, software and hardware. They're afriad of the computer and don't wan't (or don't want to take the time) to explore.

...

Oh, go and make it as opaque and 'intelligent' and 'all the user has to know is how to operate the power-on switch and the coffe-cup holder' ... as long as one can switch it off with ease. IMHO.

"ditto" ---------------------------------- <A HREF="http://benham.net/index.html"><A HREF="http://benham.net/index.html</A">http://benham.net/index.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d+(-) s:+ a29 C++$ UL++>++++ P+++$ L++>++++ E? W+++$ N+(-) o? K- w+++$(--) O M-- V- PS-- PE++ Y++ PGP++ t+ 5 X R+ !tv b++++ DI+++ D++ G++>G+++ e h+ r* y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ---------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

beamanj＠novaquest.com

20:05

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

To a large extent, I agree. However, I would like to see linux be both--that is, I think users should have the option to do everything themselves (package selection, etc) or have the machine/OS do it all for them. For the most part, you can make Linux be either (my opinion), and some distributions try to be more PnP, but for better or worse, Windows is FAR more "user-friendly" to the computer-illiterate masses. Just a though anyway...

...

-----Original Message----- From: owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com [<A HREF="mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On">mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On</A> Behalf Of The Gecko Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:15 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

On 28-Jun-98 Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

...
Well, while I belive I am somewhat versed in Unix when I first installed Linux I tend to belive the most important bit is to read the manual, reread as neccessary and to take your time. Explore the menues. Read the help on every bit. At least the first time around. [snip] User-friendly for me is the possibility to check and choose (or choose not) every package there is. Even more user-friendly would be if YaST would say what exactly it does (switch via commandline), e.g. "copying /usr/lib/zoneinfo/Europe/Berlin to /usr/lib/zoneinfo/localtime" so I could easily learn to get rid of these crutches --- they are great to learn walking, but I often want not to *have* to use them,

The majority of the consumers won't agree. They want "Plug-n-Play" in EVERYTHING, software and hardware. They're afriad of the computer and don't wan't (or don't want to take the time) to explore.

...
Oh, go and make it as opaque and 'intelligent' and 'all the user has to know is how to operate the power-on switch and the coffe-cup holder' ... as long as one can switch it off with ease. IMHO.

"ditto" ---------------------------------- <A HREF="http://benham.net/index.html"><A HREF="http://benham.net/index.html</A">http://benham.net/index.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d+(-) s:+ a29 C++$ UL++>++++ P+++$ L++>++++ E? W+++$ N+(-) o? K- w+++$(--) O M-- V- PS-- PE++ Y++ PGP++ t+ 5 X R+ !tv b++++ DI+++ D++ G++>G+++ e h+ r* y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ---------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

tanc＠cuug.ab.ca

28 Jun 28 Jun

13:04

New subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] thinking about suse

Let's not even get into the user friendliness here. I was a system administrator of an NT network for more than a year, just less than a year ago. Then I switched over to Linux. Before that, I have used various UNIX flavors before, including AIX, Solaris, DU. Of course, I had quite a bit to learn, but I made may way through slowly. I know there is still a long way for me to go. But at least I am on my way. At first, I found UNIX machines harder to use than NT. But now, I say the same thing with NT machines: they are harder to use than UNIX. I am not a psychologist, but I think that's because I am getting used to the environment. If there is anyone who is very very interested in this topic, they should get into the area of Computer-Human Interaction. Regards, C. J. Tan On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

...
It doesn't seem to take an act of congress for everybody. Just some people.

No, the majority. MOST people aren't well versed in UNIX. If Linux is to be mains stream, and it deserves to be, then it must be MUCH more user friendly.

Fred

-- Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator Cornell Univ. Press Services fmiller@lightlink.com fm@cupserv.org - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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beamanj＠novaquest.com
brian.jones3＠virgin.net
chris123＠netcom.ca
fmiller＠lightlink.com
gecko＠benham.net
hattons＠cpkwebser5.ncr.disa.mil
hekate＠intergate.bc.ca
hlarons＠mail.comcat.com
jonathan＠aracnet.net
leonmcclatchey＠homemail.com
mhtexcollins＠ccms.net
satan3＠home.com
tanc＠cuug.ab.ca
weissel＠jupiter.ph-cip.uni-koeln.de