I'm still new to this mailing list, so please forgive my naivety. It looks to me there is a number of users here who hijack and fork the thread title all the time, presumably to fool killfiles and filters, or simply for plain stupidity. I remember back in the dark days when I was on the Debian mailing lists, this was frowned upon. I would like to hear your opinions about it, as long as you keep the title intact. -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % I'm still new to this mailing list, so please forgive my naivety. Welcome! Better keep your flame-retardant suit handy, though ;-) % % It looks to me there is a number of users here who hijack and fork the % thread title all the time, presumably to fool killfiles and filters, % or simply for plain stupidity. I have my own idea of what your definition of hijacking & forking are, and if I'm right then I think that your presumptions are incorrect. But we should clarify... What is your definition of "hijacking the thread title"? How about "forking the thread title"? % % I remember back in the dark days when I was on the Debian mailing % lists, this was frowned upon. % % I would like to hear your opinions about it, as long as you keep the % title intact. I, for instance, will change the Subject: line when the content no longer matches, as I did when discussing diff parsing in another thread this morning. Since the title has nothing to do with message threading in a Real MUA (tm), the threaded view is still ordered and intact. YMMV, of course. % % -- % Ottavio HTH & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-03 16:23, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
I'm still new to this mailing list, so please forgive my naivety.
It looks to me there is a number of users here who hijack and fork the thread title all the time, presumably to fool killfiles and filters, or simply for plain stupidity.
No, that's not the reason. There are two variants. In one, when what is being talked about changes from the original intent, the writer may change the subject, like: Subject: bla bla bla [Was: so and so] which we say is branching the thread, and is accepted. We may say that it is the proper thing to do when the thread diverges, so that readers know it. Some try to create a new thread, but often this is not noticed and the discussion goes on two distinct threads. Another one happens when someone tries to create a new post, but does so by hitting reply on an old one, changing the subject line and content. This is called thread hijack, it is frowned upon, and typically happens with newcomers, till they are told :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlW/fp0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1ypnwD/RSXVwn7Ry8RXZyEv2zUR/8jt coEsMO6bLVvkUQ+7ldcBAItXMmt3UHSFQ3Qdgpi4OPxwBDx8jfJRmD3E8azgzy+L =h3io -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 15:45, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
There are two variants.
In one, when what is being talked about changes from the original intent, the writer may change the subject, like:
Subject: bla bla bla [Was: so and so]
which we say is branching the thread, and is accepted. We may say that it is the proper thing to do when the thread diverges, so that readers know it. Some try to create a new thread, but often this is not noticed and the discussion goes on two distinct threads.
Another one happens when someone tries to create a new post, but does so by hitting reply on an old one, changing the subject line and content. This is called thread hijack, it is frowned upon, and typically happens with newcomers, till they are told :-)
I've seen a thread title changed from "systemd" to "cystemd" to "system", just to mention a recent one. What I'm talking about is something different. -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % ... % I've seen a thread title changed from "systemd" to "cystemd" to % "system", just to mention a recent one. What I'm talking about is % something different. Can you clarify your definitions, then? TIA & HTH & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 15:56, David T-G <d13@justpickone.org> wrote:
Ottavio --
...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % ... % I've seen a thread title changed from "systemd" to "cystemd" to % "system", just to mention a recent one. What I'm talking about is % something different.
Can you clarify your definitions, then?
Moving the goal post, David? I'll give you an example: 1) Linda Walsh : Another example of deliberate systemd supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software... http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-08/msg00043.html 2) Carlos changes the title to: Another example of deliberate systemð supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software... 3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to: Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software... What is this all about? What was the rationale behind changing one letter in the title if not to confuse mailing list readers? -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-03 17:09, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to:
Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software...
Because his mail client (mutt from 2010) is not UTF aware. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlW/hf4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zN/AD+K2Oi8iBmN5EJ4rxJ/UbU9P5G pPuWVyeS42FKAKEbthYA/jtD37cL7Zyn0WOFeIPPUTP+omLvmL95ZaZLesxtUzQp =/5jo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 16:17, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2015-08-03 17:09, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to:
Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software...
Because his mail client (mutt from 2010) is not UTF aware.
And I should believe that in 2015 people are allowed to break mailing lists because they can't be bothered with implementing UTF? -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 3 August 2015 at 16:17, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: % > % > Because his mail client (mutt from 2010) is not UTF aware. That's not a bad hypothesis, either. % % And I should believe that in 2015 people are allowed to break mailing % lists because they can't be bothered with implementing UTF? *grin* You can believe anything you want; it's your mind :-) % % -- % Ottavio HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Put that in the fridge for later! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-08-03 17:20, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 16:17, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 2015-08-03 17:09, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to:
Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software...
Because his mail client (mutt from 2010) is not UTF aware.
And I should believe that in 2015 people are allowed to break mailing lists because they can't be bothered with implementing UTF?
It doesn't break anything, as far as I know. Mail threading is not based on subject. If you are using some client that does break, like gmail webmail client, then complain to them, because their mail client is broken. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 08/03/15 17:20, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 16:17, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2015-08-03 17:09, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to:
Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately sabotaging previously working software...
Because his mail client (mutt from 2010) is not UTF aware.
And I should believe that in 2015 people are allowed to break mailing lists because they can't be bothered with implementing UTF?
Why did he break it? Message-IDs and References were OK, no threading was interrupted. Changing a subject doesn't break any thread, not at all? Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects? Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 21:59, Joachim Schrod <jschrod@acm.org> wrote:
Why did he break it? Message-IDs and References were OK, no threading was interrupted. Changing a subject doesn't break any thread, not at all?
Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects?
Yes, it is. But this is not the point. I'm an old fart and when I was on mailing lists this behaviour would have attracted criticism. I wasn't aware of previous issues about moderation, flames, etc. But I am glad I asked. At least now I know something more. -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio Caruso writes:
On 3 August 2015 at 21:59, Joachim Schrod <jschrod@acm.org> wrote:
Why did he break it? Message-IDs and References were OK, no threading was interrupted. Changing a subject doesn't break any thread, not at all?
Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects?
Yes, it is.
Then I recommend to get a better MUA, no offence meant. Threading based on message ids was introduced decades ago. Your critic concerning non-UTF-8-able MUAs shows that you're up to current technology, time to take that other leap, too. :-) :-)
I'm an old fart
Well, Google still finds stuff from me that's from the mid-80s (I'm active in the TeX developer community since 1982), don't know if you mean that by "being an old fart". If yes, let me, as an old fart, tell you other old fart that changing subjects within a thread is quite normal on most mailing lists and newsgroups I have participated in the last 30+ years, but hijacking threads via message-id/references re-use is frowned upon. My 0.02 EUR, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-03 23:16, Joachim Schrod wrote:
Ottavio Caruso writes:
Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects?
Yes, it is.
Then I recommend to get a better MUA, no offence meant. Threading based on message ids was introduced decades ago. Your critic concerning non-UTF-8-able MUAs shows that you're up to current technology, time to take that other leap, too. :-) :-)
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlW/2/AACgkQja8UbcUWM1zdbwD/XGWepk5JhvehT2Q3sGkPW5TQ GhW8+M4uT78Poz/isf8A/3zISRjSnQse/hLPFXpkiKGshyaW19mFW6+OZHSVBBaI =YyOW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case.
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account. -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-03 23:26, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case.
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account.
So do I, more than one. But it is a broken interface by design. You must be aware of that, and live with it. Don't blame others for what is a fault in the software you are using ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlW/360ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xGkgD+KTPYsNTg7mayRTv+vUjMUJxU 5oJx1Lke/A5GV4XQ9jIA/1EvZP5U8XIX5c4fjjbIpUzCemxjeh6iCekAqJkC+XhR =jW3Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/03/2015 10:39 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-08-03 23:26, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case.
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account.
So do I, more than one. But it is a broken interface by design. You must be aware of that, and live with it. Don't blame others for what is a fault in the software you are using ;-)
Run it via Thunderbird, using IMAP, as I do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-04 09:00, michael norman wrote:
On 08/03/2015 10:39 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Run it via Thunderbird, using IMAP, as I do.
Me too. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXAj54ACgkQja8UbcUWM1z45QEAoS9YQuAsaSpznjoUC51boggJ 6JYmN9OIZHKonxOsTvwBAIzL77z3a279AU3TnxCwke2ihb/4nmNELCwt5YYNzKBS =9gKI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio, et al -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: % > I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed % > it breaks. Lost case. % % It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of % humans have a Google account. That's a lousy argument. Windows is "everywhere" and this silly Linux thing is fringe at best. Why are you even here? % % -- % Ottavio HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/03/2015 05:26 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case.
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account.
Interesting. On what do you base those statistics? What source tells that 95% of the human race even has an internet connection? Or are you simply claiming that Google has over 7 Billion distinct accounts and counting people like me whoo have more than one account many times over? Even supposing that 99.9% of Internet users even have a webmail account it is meaningless. Most ISPs provide one as an alternative. It doesn't mean that they are used. I know that I have one with each of my *many* accounts but I never use them. Are you counting my, gee it mutt be more than 40 something email addresses I use, keeping each list I subscribe to on a separate account, as if they really were distinct users? Even assuming you statistics are not a WAG, the subscribers to this list are no way representative of the mass of Internet users! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 4 August 2015 at 12:06, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 08/03/2015 05:26 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 22:24, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I think he is using gmail web interface. I tried it myself, and indeed it breaks. Lost case.
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account.
Interesting. On what do you base those statistics? What source tells that 95% of the human race even has an internet connection? Or are you simply claiming that Google has over 7 Billion distinct accounts and counting people like me whoo have more than one account many times over?
Technicalities. The picture I have got is: 1) List has been plagued by flamers/trolls; 2) Moderator has given up 3) Flamers/trolls have won. -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 4 August 2015 at 12:06, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 08/03/2015 05:26 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
It's 2015 and 99.9% of Internet users use webmail and probably 95% of humans have a Google account.
Interesting. On what do you base those statistics? What source tells that 95% of the human race even has an internet connection? Or are you simply claiming that Google has over 7 Billion distinct accounts and counting people like me whoo have more than one account many times over?
Technicalities.
The picture I have got is:
1) List has been plagued by flamers/trolls; 2) Moderator has given up 3) Flamers/trolls have won.
That you make outrageous assertions then refuse to substantiate them and instead go on to make ridiculous assertions makes it clear that ... hey wait a minute. Is you real name Aaron by any chance? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % % On 08/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote: % > Technicalities. % > % > The picture I have got is: ... % % That you make outrageous assertions then refuse to substantiate them and % instead go on to make ridiculous assertions makes it clear that ... +1 % % hey wait a minute. Is you real name Aaron by any chance? *grin* HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 4 August 2015 at 12:06, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote: ... % > On what do you base those statistics? % > What source tells that 95% of the human race even has an internet % > connection? % > Or are you simply claiming that Google has over 7 Billion distinct % > accounts and counting people like me whoo have more than one account % > many times over? % % Technicalities. Are you saying that you base your statistics on technicalities and that your source is technicalities? Or are you trying to keep us looking at your arbitrary goalpost by pooh-poohing arguments that would expose its triviality? % % The picture I have got is: % % 1) List has been plagued by flamers/trolls; Stipulated. % 2) Moderator has given up I can't by any means agree with this without a lot more conclusive evidence. Technicalities, you know... % 3) Flamers/trolls have won. Trolls, to abuse a phrase, are not an option. I don't agree with this, either. As far as I can see, you've made one claim which at least some would be willing to accept without argument despite its being an opinion and two other claims which are personal opinion completely without rational support or justification. I'm just not getting how you're really onto something meaningful that is going to Make A Difference In The World. Where, pray tell, did you get whatever it is you're smoking? [Did you like how I turned ridicule into ad hominem?] % % % -- % Ottavio HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio, et al -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 3 August 2015 at 21:59, Joachim Schrod <jschrod@acm.org> wrote: % > Why did he break it? Message-IDs and References were OK, no % > threading was interrupted. Changing a subject doesn't break any % > thread, not at all? % > % > Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects? % % Yes, it is. % % But this is not the point. I'm an old fart and when I was on mailing % lists this behaviour would have attracted criticism. [snip] An old fart would know that Subject:-line-based threading would have attracted criticism both then and now :-) HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/04/2015 05:00 AM, David T-G wrote:
Ottavio, et al --
...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 3 August 2015 at 21:59, Joachim Schrod <jschrod@acm.org> wrote: % > Why did he break it? Message-IDs and References were OK, no % > threading was interrupted. Changing a subject doesn't break any % > thread, not at all? % > % > Or, is your MUA threading based on subjects? % % Yes, it is. % % But this is not the point. I'm an old fart and when I was on mailing % lists this behaviour would have attracted criticism. [snip]
An old fart would know that Subject:-line-based threading would have attracted criticism both then and now :-)
Indeed. If this list were to work with Subject:-line based threading all I would need to do would be to change the subject line to something from a message of long, long ago and PRESTO! its resurrected. What utter balderdash! And heck, some subject lines such as "members poll" get re-used over the years for quite different matters. If I need to read by subject line regardless of thread I can set up a query to sort like that. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio, et al -- ...and then Ottavio Caruso said... % % On 3 August 2015 at 15:56, David T-G <d13@justpickone.org> wrote: % > ... % > Can you clarify your definitions, then? % % Moving the goal post, David? Trying to nail it down, actually :-) % % I'll give you an example: % 1) Linda Walsh : % Another example of deliberate systemd supporters deliberately % sabotaging previously working software... ... % 2) Carlos changes the title to: % Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately % sabotaging previously working software... ... % 3) David T-G (oh, that's you), changing it again to: % Another example of deliberate system? supporters deliberately % sabotaging previously working software... That's a great example! Thanks for the details. % % What is this all about? What was the rationale behind changing one % letter in the title if not to confuse mailing list readers? I can't speak for Carlos, but I'm sure that's because I just use plain ASCII vim and didn't notice the metacharacter in there. Good thing that the Message-ID: field doesn't have anything to do with the display and threading isn't broken because of a simple oversight! % % -- % Ottavio HTH & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-03 16:55, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
I've seen a thread title changed from "systemd" to "cystemd" to "system", just to mention a recent one. What I'm talking about is something different.
Ah, that's a different one. Some months ago we had some big flame wars, around systemd. The list admin had to implement filters, that causes *some* mails to be delayed for moderation, which can take several days. So what we do is that when we get a hit on those filters, and we do not want to wait that long, we repost changing the offending word. Can't be helped. There is another thread talking about this issue. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlW/hX8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xZzAD9EHuU2tVDWqf5KmjgFEAhYvHG FmlNAAPLLK1rFCZL8CcA/Rq/JgQyKD1wzrb4hNlu/JQcNUQvFDLj5mlF8RRFGEqT =2+Ey -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 16:15, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Some months ago we had some big flame wars, around systemd. The list admin had to implement filters, that causes *some* mails to be delayed for moderation, which can take several days.
So what we do is that when we get a hit on those filters, and we do not want to wait that long, we repost changing the offending word.
So you're confirming me you change the title to dodge filters? How is this a good thing? -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/03/2015 11:18 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 16:15, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Some months ago we had some big flame wars, around systemd. The list admin had to implement filters, that causes *some* mails to be delayed for moderation, which can take several days.
So what we do is that when we get a hit on those filters, and we do not want to wait that long, we repost changing the offending word.
So you're confirming me you change the title to dodge filters? How is this a good thing?
Its a good thing because the thread can proceed. Having to wait, possibly days, for the moderator, who has a real life outside the list, to release the items in the queue, items that are not outrageous, vitriolic or contain personal insults, means that the discussion is like talking to the New Horizon's spacecraft out at Pluto. I'm sure our ancestors had a similar situation, sending physical mail by ship or courier to distant places and getting replies days, weeks or even years later. But that was then, this is now. Our expectations have changed. This may not be an IM service but we expect to see our posts in a few minutes and replies shortly after. I don't know whether you in particular consider this to be a good thing. Many people here get to wonder what has gone wrong if they don't see their posts within a reasonable time, certainly less than an hour. You do seem happy with the promptness of replies to your own postings, all of which came within 10 minutes. If you want us to wait a day, a week before replying to you, just ask: many of us have MUAs that can cope with that. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ottavio Caruso composed on 2015-08-03 16:18 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some months ago we had some big flame wars, around systemd. The list admin had to implement filters, that causes *some* mails to be delayed for moderation, which can take several days.
He didn't have to. He just did. Many here live in fear of wearing out their delete keys, so demand a nanny (aka moderator) relieve them of that risk.
So what we do is that when we get a hit on those filters, and we do not want to wait that long, we repost changing the offending word.
So you're confirming me you change the title to dodge filters? How is this a good thing?
It's a choice of lesser evil. Moderation breaks conversing. A question is asked or answered, but when it gets trapped in moderation queue, sometimes for days, thread participants get left hanging whether aware of magic words or not. Something akin to bitrot typically sets in. The original poster may well have found a solution and not mentioned it, or given up on getting any response, by the time the moderator clears it from the queue. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 3 August 2015 at 16:44, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ottavio Caruso composed on 2015-08-03 16:18 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some months ago we had some big flame wars, around systemd. The list admin had to implement filters, that causes *some* mails to be delayed for moderation, which can take several days.
He didn't have to. He just did. Many here live in fear of wearing out their delete keys, so demand a nanny (aka moderator) relieve them of that risk.
So what we do is that when we get a hit on those filters, and we do not want to wait that long, we repost changing the offending word.
So you're confirming me you change the title to dodge filters? How is this a good thing?
It's a choice of lesser evil. Moderation breaks conversing. A question is asked or answered, but when it gets trapped in moderation queue, sometimes for days, thread participants get left hanging whether aware of magic words or not. Something akin to bitrot typically sets in. The original poster may well have found a solution and not mentioned it, or given up on getting any response, by the time the moderator clears it from the queue. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Ok, so my impression is: 1) There is a problem with moderation and/or censorship here; 2) Users are disenfranchised and take the law in their own hands. Uhmm... it's not a good sign, is it? -- Ottavio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/03/2015 11:53 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
Ok, so my impression is:
1) There is a problem with moderation and/or censorship here;
oh yes! We're not willing to pay money, some kind of weekly/monthy subscription to be a member of this list, to read and be able to post, just as you are doing, and so the moderator is a volunteer, someone who has a life apart from this list, who only gets to take overt action when things get out of hand, when people start with personal insults or things get particularly vitriolic. Personally Li like this 'hands off' style of 'policing'. I don't want a nanny-List where we all have to be politically correct and walk on tenterhooks in case something we say upsets someone, perhaps a non-contributor.
2) Users are disenfranchised and take the law in their own hands.
Uhmm... it's not a good sign, is it?
It a sign that this is a lively and active list with many opinions, some of them more extreme than others. Hey, that's life. That's how things are in the real world. There are many cases where people 'take the aw into their own hands' for the good. A few decades ago the law was that cars here in NorthAmerica had to have sealed beam headlights. They came in two types: round and oblong. Three were all kind of justifications for this, mostly to do with the limits of the technology of the 1950s. Then Ford "broke the law" and made a car that was streamlined at the headlights and had a - shock/horror - lightbulb. Only it was modern technology. Now everyone does that and it opened up the way for innovation in light bulbs that has led to low energy LEDS and innovation in LED technology. Over the centuries many laws have given way to progress. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-08-03 17:53, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 16:44, Felix Miata <> wrote:
Ottavio Caruso composed on 2015-08-03 16:18 (UTC+0100):
Ok, so my impression is:
1) There is a problem with moderation and/or censorship here; 2) Users are disenfranchised and take the law in their own hands.
Uhmm... it's not a good sign, is it?
It is not a law. The list owner (that's the proper name here) was asked to control a situation that was very bad, stop a bad flame war, out of control. To moderate. He doesn't have the time nor resources to moderate all email, nor the intention to do so (it would be akin to censorship). So he just signals for moderation certain posts on certain criteria. Unfortunately he still can not read those few posts immediately. The filter and the moderation is not a "law", nor the goal. The goal is to avoid insults. If we edit a subject line to thwart a filter, but we don't badly insult each other, my guess is that he will be happy and perhaps not even comment on it. After all, I have known him for years :-) So we are within the spirit of the "law" :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> [08-03-15 11:44]: [...]
It's a choice of lesser evil. Moderation breaks conversing. A question is asked or answered, but when it gets trapped in moderation queue, sometimes for days, thread participants get left hanging whether aware of magic words or not. Something akin to bitrot typically sets in. The original poster may well have found a solution and not mentioned it, or given up on getting any response, by the time the moderator clears it from the queue.
And so we again go off into the wilde blue yonder .... :( -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-08-03 17:18, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
On 3 August 2015 at 16:15, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
So you're confirming me you change the title to dodge filters? How is this a good thing?
It is a necessity. Neither good nor bad. Or if you prefer, I don't consider myself to be at fault here. It has been explained on another thread. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Ottavio Caruso wrote:
I'm still new to this mailing list, so please forgive my naivety.
It looks to me there is a number of users here who hijack and fork the thread title all the time, presumably to fool killfiles and filters, or simply for plain stupidity.
I remember back in the dark days when I was on the Debian mailing lists, this was frowned upon.
I would like to hear your opinions about it, as long as you keep the title intact.
Conversations naturally move along. They are not limited to 1 subject -- though when people are thoughtful, they will change the subject and even though are threaded below the first subject when others respond to the original subject -- the original subject line is back. If you look at the date on my posting and the date 'now' you see that it was delayed '3' days because I'm on a watch list for titles involving certain software that I have yet to adopt. The fact that I have yet to adopt the software, but continue to modify packages around the "problem" makes me suspect or something, I suppose...but I'm rarely one to jump to the bleeding edge if I can help it. Maybe all the problems will be ironed out by the time I decide programming around the problem isn't worth the effort --- or maybe I'll move to Win10! (*cough*) Note: I am changing the title of this reply, as I'm describing what happens. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linda, et al -- ...and then Linda Walsh said... % ... % Note: I am changing the title of this reply, as I'm describing % what happens. How very appropriate. Thank you! /me resists the urge to come up with a reason to change it again ... yet HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/04/2015 08:13 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
Conversations naturally move along. They are not limited to 1 subject -- though when people are thoughtful, they will change the subject and even though are threaded below the first subject when others respond to the original subject -- the original subject line is back.
Evolution happens. Yes there are people who don't believe in evolution. Despite the evidence. Better that the Subject:-line evolves than we get "off topic", eh? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [08-04-15 08:15]: [...]
Conversations naturally move along. They are not limited to 1 subject -- though when people are thoughtful, they will change the subject and even though are threaded below the first subject when others respond to the original subject -- the original subject line is back.
Depending a great deal on the software displaying said email.
If you look at the date on my posting and the date 'now' you see that it was delayed '3' days because I'm on a watch list for titles involving certain software that I have yet to adopt.
Maybe you haven't adopted certain software, but that fact has nothing to do with your supposed inclusion on a "watch list".
The fact that I have yet to adopt the software, but continue to modify packages around the "problem" makes me suspect or something, I suppose...but I'm rarely one to jump to the bleeding edge if I can help it. Maybe all the problems will be ironed out by the time I decide programming around the problem isn't worth the effort --- or maybe I'll move to Win10! (*cough*)
I believe doctors term that paranoia.
Note: I am changing the title of this reply, as I'm describing what happens.
And you also removed the "In-Reply To:" which separated the threads :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/04/2015 08:58 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
Maybe you haven't adopted certain software, but that fact has nothing to do with your supposed inclusion on a "watch list".
I haven't adopted 13.2 or tumbleweed but if I post with 'systemd' in the subject line my mail gets delayed. Its nothing personal, its about the subject line. it why some people use a different word/spelling. I'm sure that if Linda wised up and did so too she'd find its not personal. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
I haven't adopted 13.2 or tumbleweed but if I post with 'systemd' in the subject line my mail gets delayed.
Its nothing personal, its about the subject line. it why some people use a different word/spelling.
I'm sure that if Linda wised up and did so too she'd find its not personal.
My mom sends me copies of chain mail and conservative SPAM (she has a lot of conservative friends living in Texas)...and neither of my SPAM filters (spamd,thunderbird) mark her mails for spammy-review. Good thing too..... as recently my Tbird scanner has gotten overly aggro -- it lost it's marbles, er data...when I tried to upgrade to a later version. disaster -- but the browser trial is still in process -- couldn't to get x64 went w/pale moon -- it still has more problems on various pages than my 3.6.28 version, but on the 10% of the web that's started using HTML5...PM wins hands down. I'm still in the process of going through the 80-100...hmmmmm... seems like there are 168 extensions in the ext dir, but I think some have been removed and the dir didn't go away yet or something... Anyway figuring out which have updates or replacements or still work with a version change, or what...is slow work. Interspersed with a few other computer projects... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
And you also removed the "In-Reply To:" which separated the threads :)
Um... you mean this line? In-Reply-To:<CAEJNuHzELsAx6pq+F8CD-OjfTdAMJT7bfm1ez_sreiAfo1WMdQ@mail.gmail.com> It's below the MIME-Version:1.0 and above the "Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8;format=flowed And you promised me you were going to see the eye doctor! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dunno if attachments are allowed, so I made sure to convert this to text (nice thing about pics in SVG... ---- it shows up all as 1 conversation as shown by this graph (threadvis) ---- (put it in a file -- it's all 1 line, but I don't think that matters unless you cut an 'entity' like "th" "is" (this)...and feed it to most browsers these days or inkscape. :-) <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?><!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd"><svg width="100%" height="100%" version="1.1" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><circle id='c_0' onmouseover='toggle(evt,this);' onmouseout='toggle(evt,this);' cx='12' cy='66' r='6' fill='#7EFF00' /><circle id='c_1' onmouseover='toggle(evt,this);' onmouseout='toggle(evt,this);' cx='36' cy='66' r='6' fill='#00FFFF' /><path id='p_1' d='M12,60 a12,16 0 0,1 12,-16 h 0 a12,16 0 0,1 12,16' fill='none' stroke='#00FFFF' stroke-width='2' /><circle id='c_2' onmouseover='toggle(evt,this);' 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On 2015-08-05 22:50, Linda Walsh wrote:
Dunno if attachments are allowed, so I made sure to convert this to text (nice thing about pics in SVG...
Just upload the picture to susepaste.org and post a link. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-08-05 22:50, Linda Walsh wrote:
Dunno if attachments are allowed, so I made sure to convert this to text (nice thing about pics in SVG...
Just upload the picture to susepaste.org and post a link.
---- Didn't know about that... http://susepaste.org/39601876 Thanks! -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-08-06 04:21, Linda Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Just upload the picture to susepaste.org and post a link.
---- Didn't know about that... http://susepaste.org/39601876 Thanks! -l
Isn’t it a cute trick? :-)) Mmm... how did you do that thread graphic? Curious thing, that. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Mmm... how did you do that thread graphic? Curious thing, that.
It's built-in to the threadvis extension. The thread graphic is what the .SVG output that I sent "should" have looked like. It writes it out to a file in .svg format if you wish. In this case, I just told it to open it in a separate window so I could expand it so you could see the relative times. When it is on the "normal display", it displays in what is usually a blank area to the right of where it has the From, Date, To info... But the graph on large discussions gets so big, it drops out the times, thus my reason for opening it separately. amo: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/threadvis/ other home page: http://threadvis.github.io/ Updated up to tbird 24.0 according to the 2nd page. I still use an old version (1.1.595) as it used it's own db for doing the threading (it tracks threads across folders!). After that version -- it was available for Tbird3, which, by default downloads all your folders to your local 'roaming' profile on windows. I.e. if you have a large email store, the default in TB3 and beyond is to duplicate it locally. Even though I tried to upgrade to a later email reader but 'reverted due to it's lower stability, I hadn't tackled the challenge of getting the older version to work on the newer TB's, as the newer versions make it an explicit requirement that you need to download all your email locally (the TB3+ default). If you don't turn that on, the tool won't work. I figure when I upg to something TB3+-compat, I'll rewrite the version checks in the last version to use it's own DB, since the whole reason for me to keep things in imap was to to have all the clients use the 1 location. My mom is having problems -- likely lost her address book due to it being all in 1 big ".PST" file that got overwritten when outlook had to be reinstalled. Lovely. I keep trying to intro her to gmail...;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-06 11:27, Linda Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Mmm... how did you do that thread graphic? Curious thing, that.
It's built-in to the threadvis extension. The thread graphic is what the .SVG output that I sent "should" have looked like.
Cute. :-)
My mom is having problems -- likely lost her address book due to it being all in 1 big ".PST" file that got overwritten when outlook had to be reinstalled. Lovely. I keep trying to intro her to gmail...;-)
Backups ;-) :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXDV9UACgkQja8UbcUWM1yb6gEAhjyjdswAAed0c7tN6JhEHuXr zifSoSsuzy2s0r3UAIMBAIox0sOtZSWgk9oy6KqSz157I4Xgwh25xDue1wouo4JJ =XUqZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On August 6, 2015 8:49:25 AM EDT, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-08-06 11:27, Linda Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Mmm... how did you do that thread graphic? Curious thing, that.
It's built-in to the threadvis extension. The thread graphic is what the .SVG output that I sent "should" have looked like.
Cute. :-)
My mom is having problems -- likely lost her address book due to it being all in 1 big ".PST" file that got overwritten when outlook had to be reinstalled. Lovely. I keep trying to intro her to gmail...;-)
Backups ;-) :-p
OT: Win 7 and newer has shadow copies. Like btrfs snapshots.
From the command line 'vssadmin list shadows' will tell you if they exist. They are very common.
vss from http://www.dmares.com/maresware/tz.htm#VSS will let you map one to a drive letter. Just use file explorer to grab a copy of a pre-overwritten pst. Greg -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hallo Linda, op 05-08-15 om 22:50 schreef je:
Dunno if attachments are allowed, so I made sure to convert this to text (nice thing about pics in SVG... ---- it shows up all as 1 conversation as shown by this graph (threadvis) ---- (put it in a file -- it's all 1 line, but I don't think that matters unless you cut an 'entity' like "th" "is" (this)...and feed it to most browsers these days or inkscape. :-)
[snip] ;-) I fed it to Opera, which said "XML-verwerking mislukt: syntaxfout (Regel: 3, Karakter: 0)". [fout = error] And: "load it as html". Well, I did so, no problem, nice pic. (nice -19) Harrie -- Harrie Baken | Tekstbureau TekstBaken Copy-editing - proofreading (Dutch) www.tekstbaken.nl Registered Linux user #366560 | openSUSE 13.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
David T-G -
Felix Miata -
greg.freemyer＠gmail.com -
Harrie Baken -
Joachim Schrod -
Linda Walsh -
michael norman -
Ottavio Caruso -
Patrick Shanahan