Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ? On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

S S wrote:

Oh no.. not this debate again.

Well, we're going to keep on having this debate until the idiocy of systemd is fixed.. which, judging by the overall structure, will be right about never. Sievert and Poeetering's attitude is -- we can do whatever we can get away with and force on the rest of the community. If that means kneecaping them to get them to understand that "getting away with it" will cease, then, I for one, am all for it.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/24/2014 12:47 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Sievert and Poeetering's attitude is -- we can do whatever we can get away with and force on the rest of the community.

Just like UTS did with what we now call 'sysvinit' back at the start of the 1980s.

UTS init didn't replace a well-understood mechanism with some unholy horrorshow forcing administrators to essentially learn entire new languages (look at the systemd config files... the legal syntax is almost as complex as C, and is certainly much more complex than any assembly language I've ever programmed in.. And none of the shit is documented. All UTS did was MODERATELY extend the existing init architecture by adding runlevels.

UTS did a lot of things that were contrary to the vision of UNIX that Dennis had. Semaphores, for example.

Semaphores aren't in SysVInit... By the way, SysV-like runlevels were ALSO introduced in contemporary (early 1980's) versions of BSD, which did NOT have semaphores.

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BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending. On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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S S wrote:

Pottering never forced anything on anyone,

Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.

all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.

Geee, I wonder why. They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good? Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit. There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.

I don't really see you changing anything,

I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?

although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.

Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system. And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit, And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin... making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up? Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S wrote:

...

BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:04 AM, S S wrote:

Funny how comfortable you must be hiding behind your computer monitor telling people "Fuck You", whereas if you were to say that right to my face I'd drop you. Seriously go take your meds because you literally are retarded and nobody cares about your stupid rants under your sock puppet account. Sorry that you have to live with a tiny penis.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

S S wrote:

...

Pottering never forced anything on anyone,

Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.

...

all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.

Geee, I wonder why.

They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good?

Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.

There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.

...

I don't really see you changing anything,

I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?

...

although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.

Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system.

And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit,

And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin...

making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr

That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up?

Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.

...

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S wrote:

...

BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote: > > > El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió: >> >> >> Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into >> the system scripts > > > > No. it is not possible. > > > -- > Cristian > "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to > please everybody." > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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I'm not Aaron On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* S S [09-24-14 03:08]:

...

Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about.

Ah, appears aaron had assumed another alias, "S S". He is even taking to talking and answering himself :^(

Making note, "Add another email addr to /dev/null".

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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S S wrote:

Funny how comfortable you must be hiding behind your computer monitor telling people "Fuck You", whereas if you were to say that right to my

Whatever, Shutzstaffel.

face I'd drop you. Seriously go take your meds because you literally are retarded and nobody cares about your stupid rants under your sock puppet account. Sorry that you have to live with a tiny penis.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

S S wrote:

...

Pottering never forced anything on anyone,

Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.

...

all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.

Geee, I wonder why.

They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good?

Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.

There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.

...

I don't really see you changing anything,

I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?

...

although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.

Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system.

And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit,

And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin...

making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr

That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up?

Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.

...

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S wrote:

...

BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote: > > > El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió: >> >> >> Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into >> the system scripts > > > > No. it is not possible. > > > -- > Cristian > "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to > please everybody." > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Hey, jeez, can't even let you guys alone for a couple of days. This thread is dead now, people have been thrown off the lists, all systemd threads are moderated again. Let's try again... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Mailinglist Admin http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

S S wrote:

BSD is dying,

SystemD is causing a great many admins to move BACK to BSD

and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive,

As if ZFS is the only filesystem....

it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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ianseeks wrote:

On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 00:45:44 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.

You can do that but i'm sure if you are a good admin of your system, you'd be able to remove "systemd" and restore "sysvinit" or is that the problem for you?

I don't have time to play STUPID FUCKING GAMES undoing all of the malicious sabotage caused by Sievert and Poettering. Do you have the time to do it?

"sysvinit" is still an installable package in opensuse 13.1 repos.

And it's fucked.

...

...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts

No. it is not possible.

-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Hello, On Wed, 24 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:

Slackware

Gentoo, I think. Debian Stable. -dnh -- Dijkstra probably hates me. -- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Fri, 26 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

David Haller wrote on 2014-09-24 13:18 (UCT+0200):

...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):

...

...

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

...

...

If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:

...

...

Slackware

...

Gentoo, I think. Debian Stable.

Debian is committed to systemd. It has 208 (same as 13.2) in testing, 211 in unstable. Wheezy (Stable) includes 44.

Gentoo since this month has had 215+.

==== http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd ==== systemd is a modern sysvinit & RC replacement for Linux systems. It is supported in Gentoo as an alternate init system. [..] This page was last modified on 10 September 2014, at 17:02. ==== See also https://www.google.com/search?q=systemd+site:gentoo.org -dnh -- Why is it defensive driving doesn't imply the use of defensive grenades? -- Ino!~ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ruben Safir wrote:

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:21:02AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):

...

Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?

If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:

Slackware

That would be strange to have to go back to slackware, but it that is it that is it at least until all the small progrms that have been swallowed up by systemd die of lack of support.

And that's precisely why SystemD is the wrong way to do it. It's replacing small, separate programs, (which, although they have different syntaxes for their configuration files, those syntaxes are consisted with the needs of those daemons) with one giant craptastic pile of monolithic Redmondism...with a "uniform" syntax for configuration files, which is well-suited for absolutely NONE of the services which are being swallowed up. The separate deamons WILL survive in BSD... primarily because some arrogant vandal like Sievert or Poettering won't be allowed to fuck with things so needlessly.

Ruben

...

You can try making your own clicking all the distro links on http://distrowatch.com/ but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no others in the top 40.

IIRC, 12.1 gave a default option to not use systemd. Mageia 1 didn't have it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Felix Miata wrote:

Dirk Gently wrote on 2014-09-24 00:45 (GMT-0400):

...

Sievert and Poettering ...

...

... i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism.

...

And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.

Or maybe not. http://ewontfix.com/14/ I understood and agreed with, toned down from your sentiment, but philsophically the same. I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...

Wow... let's see... /etc/inittab replaced by config files with dozens to hundreds of indecipherable, undocumented lines for even the simplest initializations some weird mechanism which intercepts $ /etc/init.d/[someservicename] restart and somehow maps it to some random-looking "systemd" command.... so the /etc/init.d structure is still there, but nothing there is actually meaningful.... which then just confuses the fuck out of everything process 1, init, .. an extremely short program, so short that it NEVER needs to be updated (and also takes exteremely few CPU cycles), is replaced by systemd, some big huge executable, which is a CPU hog, and sometimes needs to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT. The link you gave is some moron trying to handwave away all of the problems that systemd introduces, while still not providing very good solutions to the problems that we had with SysVInit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.

Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?

It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do. Telcontar:~ # systemctl status systemd systemd.service Loaded: not-found (Reason: No such file or directory) Active: inactive (dead) Telcontar:~ # - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQipw0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UgkwCfeKVgJxwxBhvM7UDfT5GJjvBf PXMAn36xpufgzpMsXG587mBkLm9cHDoq =aUVZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

...

to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.

Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?

It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.

systemctl daemon-reexec

Eric S. Raymond makes a good point that whatever your process 1 is, it should NEVER NEED TO BE RESTARTED, and it should be SO SIMPLE THAT IT NEVER NEEDS TO BE REPLACED. This is one of MANY fundamental principles which SystemD violates, because, frankly, Sievert and Poettering are a couple of Narcisstic jerks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 13:25:00 Dirk Gently wrote:

Narcisstic jerks. sounds like pot kettle black to me -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-09-24 15:50, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.

systemctl daemon-reexec

Thanks. I wrote that on a postit and stuck it to the screen. I hope to remember and try it next time ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQkSjkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UtYQCfZ/43ehUNet7AlZooCakMeu6+ WHUAoJSX+bBRTUxCMk174mGOH1hGXBq/ =zgcB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 24/09/14 13:40, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...

That's excellent.

Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.

The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded. There's a "Big Lie" being carried out by the anti-systemd people; they seem to think that if they make false claims often enough and loudly enough they can convince us about something that is quite demonstrably not the case.

My background is mathematics and engineering and I'm inclined to "look to the evidence", and the evidence I see is that the claims of the anti-systemd people are not based on demonstrable facts and evidence, in fact the evidence contradicts what they say.

And when people like aaron resort to suggesting using tactics normally practised by terrorists groups such as the IRA of the 1970s on individuals who are part of the systemd development group, well that says a lot about them. Perhaps the Homeland Security people should be advised of this.

Lennart Poettering is just one individual in that group. Assassinating him, be it by character or by shotgun as the violent-minded aaron advocates, will not halt systemd development.

Perhaps some people are too inclined to 'code' and don't understand how to use a declarative language rather than a procedural language. Perhaps that, too, is indicative of what schools and colleges are churning out as 'gunfodder' for the IT world these days.

Which is sad. Highly parallel programming, the kind that is going to be needed to deal with highly parallel programming, will be more concerned with a 'declarative' model, with triggers and events, than the old procedural code.

If the "UNIX Way" is limited to the models of "Software Tools" and other similar books then we are going to be stuck in what amounts to a stream-processing mode. That means the event-driven style needed to deal with GUIs as well as many real-time and 'headless' applications at which *NIX excels such as network processing, banking and finance and more don't fit any more than systemd fits. So obviously there's more to it than that. And that is why I think the 17 points in that article sum up 'The Unix Way" much better.

That the anti-systemd people like aaron feel they have to resort to using shotguns and physical violence tells me a lot: that they have failed in any argument based on reason and so must resort to violence. As one philosopher said: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent".

I have no axe to grind about systemd, the "debate" is way over my head. What I "do" think is if anybody posts to this list implicit threats of violence (whether meant to be ironic or not) they and anybody else that behaves like that should be immediately barred from using this list. I have subscribed here since about 1989 I have never put back anything like what I have gained, but if it carries on like this I will say goodbye (without expecting to be missed the way C will be). M -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:17AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...

That's excellent.

And when people like aaron resort to suggesting using tactics normally practised by terrorists groups such as the IRA of the 1970s on individuals who are part of the systemd development group, well that says a lot about them. Perhaps the Homeland Security people should be advised of this.

You can not trust 'engineers' with the decision making power over your system because they tend to have fundementally flawed views of what is and is not acceptable use and design for technology. The use and implementation of technology is, as a fact, a social and political question, and not a technological one. Never the less, despite rants to the contrary, a huge number of individuals didn't wake up on a Tuesday morning and just decide to "attack" the project of systemd. There is REAL cause for rejecting systemd. But the number one reason is that, aside from it being un-unix like, for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB. A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd. Now that might be fine is say, postwar soviet East Germany, for my GNU system in NYC, I don't like it and I really don't like needing to needlessly relearn the root of the system to wrap it around this huge white elephant. That being said, I didn't ask this question to debate the merits of systemd, as few as there are. I'm not interested in systemd any more than I'm interested in Aqua, or Internet Explore and .Net. I've already made my decision about the merits and lack of merits of the program and I would like to remove it from my system, if I can. Ruben

Lennart Poettering is just one individual in that group. Assassinating him, be it by character or by shotgun as the violent-minded aaron advocates, will not halt systemd development.

Perhaps some people are too inclined to 'code' and don't understand how to use a declarative language rather than a procedural language. Perhaps that, too, is indicative of what schools and colleges are churning out as 'gunfodder' for the IT world these days.

Which is sad. Highly parallel programming, the kind that is going to be needed to deal with highly parallel programming, will be more concerned with a 'declarative' model, with triggers and events, than the old procedural code.

If the "UNIX Way" is limited to the models of "Software Tools" and other similar books then we are going to be stuck in what amounts to a stream-processing mode. That means the event-driven style needed to deal with GUIs as well as many real-time and 'headless' applications at which *NIX excels such as network processing, banking and finance and more don't fit any more than systemd fits. So obviously there's more to it than that. And that is why I think the 17 points in that article sum up 'The Unix Way" much better.

That the anti-systemd people like aaron feel they have to resort to using shotguns and physical violence tells me a lot: that they have failed in any argument based on reason and so must resort to violence. As one philosopher said: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent".

-- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Some of The BSD Developers have already been talking about porting systemd over to BSD. With Debian, Red Hat Inc and SUSE migrating to systemd pretty much all cloned GNU/Linux distros are migrating. I like a lot of what systemd is doing but there are some things I do not like. journald is one of my concerns placing logs into a binary format may be useful to help prevent compromised systems from having logging entries removed. With text files based logging it is relatively easy to remove some lines from the log to cover up the system compromise. Of course using an external log collector and forwarding copies of all entries to it helps to eliminate this threat. SystemD does allow for RSyslog or SyslogNG which good as plain text logs do have the added advantage of easy of use with a massive amount of GNU utilities to parse the with. I currently am unclear as to whether journald can even send copies to a remote log collection server but I am sure the developers have thought of this. Security vs ease of use is always a sticky situation. The kernel cgroups tracking feature is a great security enhancement and stability enhancement so intentionally malicious multi forked PID's can not be made hidden and used to prevent malicious process from being stopped or restarted as part of the parent process using sytemvint. I do not like the HTTP server integration at all and I do not want this at all journald is optional though. Gentoo still has not embraced systemd but it is an implemented option and required for GNOME 3. As long as you do not want to use GNOME 3 (Impossible now without systemd now) you can use Gentoo with a different choice of DE and systemvinit. There is at least a commercial book available, Fedora Linux Servers with systemd, that covers the Fedora 20 implementation of systemd. Once you understand the syntax it is at least easy to use and consistent for an OSS moving target development project. Sadly the authors writing style is that of a Historian and not a technology enthusiast though. I really do not care for the idea of integrating DBus into systemd and PID 1. I have heard some of the concerns being voiced about this and it sounds like trouble waiting to happen. Bottom line in the long run I personally think systemd will bring a lot to Linux even if it does require being forked sometime in the future to overhaul some aspects of it so its development is not a waist at all in my opinion. Once the larger community steps in and possibly forks it and host the fork at The Linux Foundation if possible I imagine a lot of these debates will end with more folks actually working on it. The beauty of FLOSS if you do not like a direction something is taking and your concerns are not adhered to then stick a fork in it and prove yours is better. If systemd was a Linux Foundation working group then LSB and other requirements could be added into this umbrella to create some useful standardization. One day their will be a Universal Linux Package format and package manager after someone actually convinces all the developers of current solutions to work together to produce a new a new one from scratch! Some of the arguments against systemd though seem to be being spoon fed by a GNU/Linux Hater or FUD campaign because they actually attack both systemvinit and systemd. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 24/09/14 a las #4, Timothy Butterworth escribió:

...

I do not like the HTTP server integration at all and I do not want this at all journald is optional though.

WUT? The journal does not have an HTTP server..

...

I really do not care for the idea of integrating DBus into systemd and PID 1. I have heard some of the concerns being voiced about this and it sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Dbus is not integrated into systemd, never has and never will be.. where did you get this idea ? Not everything you read on the internet is true.

...

If systemd was a Linux Foundation working group then LSB and other requirements could be added into this umbrella to create some useful standardization.

placing a project like this in the hands of a bureaucratic standard busybody is something that would essentially make it disappear. as

And with regards to systemd, that would be a good thing.

nobody sane will ever continue developing it under that conditions. Even less if you mention the LSB which is an awful idea that was horrendously executed.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/24/2014 10:39 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:17AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

/snip/

You can not trust 'engineers' with the decision making power over your system because they tend to have fundementally flawed views of what is and is not acceptable use and design for technology. The use and implementation of technology is, as a fact, a social and political question, and not a technological one. Never the less, despite rants to the contrary, a huge number of individuals didn't wake up on a Tuesday morning and just decide to "attack" the project of systemd. There is REAL cause for rejecting systemd. But the number one reason is that, aside from it being un-unix like, for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB. A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd. Now that might be fine is say, postwar soviet East Germany, for my GNU system in NYC, I don't like it and I really don't like needing to needlessly relearn the root of the system to wrap it around this huge white elephant.

That being said, I didn't ask this question to debate the merits of systemd, as few as there are. I'm not interested in systemd any more than I'm interested in Aqua, or Internet Explore and .Net. I've already made my decision about the merits and lack of merits of the program and I would like to remove it from my system, if I can.

Ruben

/snip/ I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd? I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed. I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

...

/snip/

I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd? I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed. I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization.

Not interested. I just want to go back to init and the /etc/rc.d directory of services. Am I to understand that the cores from my programs no longer go on the file system? How the hell did systemd get that deep into my computing environemt? Ruben

--doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:

It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,

see i was correct, pot kettle black -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,

see i was correct, pot kettle black

Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.

you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,

see i was correct, pot kettle black

Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.

you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.

I've got a deal for you Ian:

If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.

Is that fair enough?

:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 14:28:14 Bob Williams wrote:

On 30/09/14 14:21, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: > It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe > that ANY opinion that differs from their own is > illegitimate,

see i was correct, pot kettle black

Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.

you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.

I've got a deal for you Ian:

If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.

Is that fair enough?

:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot

so many times it must look like a teabag.

Please don't feed the trolls.

i know i shouldn't but someone with his attitude problem was just like shooting fish in a barrel. i had decided to stop winding him up today anyway, you can't have too much fun

-- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-21-desktop

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 30/09/14 17:23, Dirk Gently wrote:

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: > It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY > opinion > that differs from their own is illegitimate,

see i was correct, pot kettle black

Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.

you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.

I've got a deal for you Ian:

If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.

Is that fair enough?

:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.

How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me?

Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly.

You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine.

For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous.

By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you.

I'd get that checked out if I were you...

But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect.

But YOU DO.

Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy.

Dunno. Madrid or Barcelona maybe? Or somewhere quieter for a shorter length of time. Adelaide for example. HTH, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Walter Finckh wrote:

what do You want to achieve with Your senseless discussion, guys is it effective for the linux community or what

Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.

hans On 09/30/2014 05:58 PM, lynn wrote:

...

On 30/09/14 17:23, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote: > ianseeks wrote: >> On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: >>> It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY >>> opinion >>> that differs from their own is illegitimate, >> >> see i was correct, pot kettle black > > Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.

you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.

I've got a deal for you Ian:

If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.

Is that fair enough?

:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.

How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me?

Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly.

You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine.

For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous.

By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you.

I'd get that checked out if I were you...

But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect.

But YOU DO.

Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy.

Dunno. Madrid or Barcelona maybe? Or somewhere quieter for a shorter length of time. Adelaide for example. HTH, L x

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.

I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.

I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.

Fuck you, too, Billie.

Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.

I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.

Fuck you, too, Billie.

Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.

Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.

Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/01/2014 01:17 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

So you are a poofter!

Is that better or worse than being accused of being a marxist? -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/01/2014 04:28 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:

Not familiar with that term ..............

- a 'fairy' .................. regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/01/2014 09:28 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

On 10/01/2014 12:17 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote: > On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote: >> >> Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of >> the discussion. > > I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this > discussion. > Fuck you, too, Billie.

Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.

Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.

Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days.

So you are a poofter!

Definition please. Not familiar with that term.

British term for a queer. A homosexual. Probably male only, but don't know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Enough already. Grow up, or take it private. At best you're embarrassing yourselves. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/02/2014 06:25 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:

(or move to macs?... arg!)

Double arg!! I like Apple about as much as I do Micro$oft! They lie. For example, they were heavily marketing a new feature for IOS-8 where your I-Phone's MAC address would be randomized so that you couldn't be tracked by WiFi as you wandered through your life. So imagine my shock when I learned this morning (*) that, while the feature is there under certain very narrow conditions, your MAC address is not randomized for most use cases. Apple should make the claimed feature work as advertised, or admit that it lied. If you catch someone in a security-related lie, can you ever trust them again? Why, you could find all your obscene selfies posted all over the Internet! (**) Regards, Lew (*) heard from Steve Gibson on a TWIT podcast (**) no, don't bother looking for my obscene selfies! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...

That's excellent.

Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.

The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.

If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented. If I can't bring up my system to full GUI status, no amount of online webpages are worth a single shit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:

On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 .html> That's excellent.

Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.

The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.

If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.

man systemd - works for me

Not only that! $ apropos systemd| wc -l 130 aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I had before systemd and have nothing to do with systemd and everything to do with Xorg, the drivers and kernel modules. I expect to have similar problems whenever I change my graphics hardware. Attributing these problems to systemd is just part of the Big Lie that people such as aaron-as-dirk engage in. If you look to history and see example of major players who practised the Big Lie technique of persuading people, you'll realise that such people do not have your best interests at heart, nor, if history is to be a judge, the best interests of society at large. Hopefully you will more sensitive to the Big Lie techniques that masses have been in the past and not be persuaded. -- "Nothing is more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things." -- Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/25/2014 04:05 PM, michael norman wrote:

Goebbels.

Among quite a few other from about that time. Yes, it was a time of ranting mad-men who held great political power, the world over.

OT but the technique still works.

Sad but true. Despite better informed and more sceptical media, despite the Internet and and despite debunkers, there are still, at all levels of society, throughout the world, those espousing nonsense and those who would rather believe than than approach things rationally. I recall in the 1960/70s there was Eric von Daniken and the cloud of belief in "Ancient Spacemen" to explain away the pyramids and other great historic works. How insulting this was to our ancestors. But while it's easy to speculate, disproving such takes work, and that work *has* been done. Palaeolithic re-enactors have raised menhirs and archaeology have uncovered the living quarters and quartermasters records of the workers who built the pyramids. It takes no budget to write unfounded fiction, but a lot of time, effort and hence budget to do serious, documented, methodical archaeological work. But just as with systemd, there are those who refuse to face evidence and deny those who have put the time and effort into design, coding testing, re-design, metricating AND DOCUMENTING each stage of that. That such nay-sayers and denigraters have nothing else of comparative details and quality to offer and also espouse violence puts them in much the same class as the practitioners of the Big Lie approach to management of the political leaders and their hence-men that I, and michael, were referring to. -- For ages, a deadly conflict has been waged between a few brave men and women of thought and genius upon the one side, and the great ignorant religious mass on the other. This is the war between Science and Faith. The few have appealed to reason, to honor, to law, to freedom, to the known, and to happiness here in this world. The many have appealed to prejudice, to fear, to miracle, to slavery, to the unknown, and to misery hereafter. The few have said "Think" The many have said "Believe!" --Robert Ingersoll (Gods) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 25/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.

I have a question.. are you trolling or are really this ignorant ? because everything you said above is not true in any detail whatsoever. You are talking about something you clearly have no clue about and making a fool of yourself in the process. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 25/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.

I have a question.. are you trolling or are really this ignorant ? because everything you said above is not true in any detail whatsoever.

Hey, Cristian, if that's all you can come up with in response to his rational argument based on the facts on the ground, how about you just bend over and blow it out your ass.

You are talking about something you clearly have no clue about and making a fool of yourself in the process.

Moron. See? I can make trite, meaningless arguments too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5)

<quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote>

Which violates the computing principle of ONE SOURCE for each piece of data. Having both /etc/fstab and "mounting units" (whatever the FUCK that means), is deliberately taking things back to the 1950's, when, frankly, we didn't understand principles of sound programming practices nearly as well as we do today. Seriously, the whole systemd thing look like 2 refugees from the 1950's (or East Germany, take you pick) suddenly decided to "improve" the most advanced operating system in the world with pie-in-the-sky ideas which conveniently forget to include DECADES of accumulated computing wisdom. If you want your computer controlled by a monolithic, incomprehensible monstrosity, Microsoft has an operating system for YOU. Now, please leave Linux alone, and take your SystemD with you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount? I'm seriously interested in the twisted thinking that would construct this. The answer seems to be that they don't want mount or /etc/fstab files and just decided to throw the ole unix guys a bone. I wonder if you can rip up systemd and use it for Windows. They don't have a clearly readable, easy to understand /etc/fstab file either. and when windows mounts things all screwed up and backwards, I have no idea how to fix it and neither does MS. Just stuff everything into regedit and hope it works. I'm not sure what is sadder, that this was adopted and written with Red Hats blessing, that it has been widely implimented, OR that you have supposed 'engineers' and free software people defending this.

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5)

<quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote>

Which violates the computing principle of ONE SOURCE for each piece of data.

Having both /etc/fstab and "mounting units" (whatever the FUCK that means), is deliberately taking things back to the 1950's, when, frankly, we didn't understand principles of sound programming practices nearly as well as we do today.

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On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 03:34:46AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:

...

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?

It calls mount.. but that's not the point..

There is no database, only mount units..in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why?

Does this sentence make sence to you? What are you saying? It clearly says that the entries in fstab are used to make 'mount units' and that is only if there is an fstab. In the case of fstab they are used...? fstab is a text file. It doesn't use ANYTHING. It is read by init and mount in order to control their behavior.

because it has to know in what order to umount them

init systems don't need to unmount anything but the boot image sometimes.

and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available.

That is NOT the role of an initiation system. Now, it is a database it created. It is a database of mount points with further instructions and other crap. If this in binary so that it is 'secure'? Guess what. fstab also has an order. and no, it doesn't need to know if users need mounts and when they need mounts or for what purpose. It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab, low and behold in the order they are listed. It does not need to 'interact'. If just needs to do what I tell it to do. It doesn't need to guess. It doesn't need to prioritize. It certainly doesn't have to guess wrong. It doesn't need to start NFS or SAMBA or even mail or cron. It just needs to mount the partitions that I list in fstab. It doesn't need to think for me. It just has to do what I tell it to. As it is, you guys have destroyed the mount command with the same kind of chatter that ticked off Linus when he was discussing kernel debugging. Look at all this crap in the output now: ruben@workstation:~> mount devtmpfs on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=943908k,nr_inodes=235977,mode=755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000) /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd) pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu,cpuacct type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuacct,cpu) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/memory type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,memory) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/devices type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,devices) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/freezer type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,freezer) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/net_cls type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,net_cls) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/blkio type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,blkio) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/perf_event type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,perf_event) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/hugetlb type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,hugetlb) systemd-1 on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type autofs (rw,relatime,fd=27,pgrp=1,timeout=300,minproto=5,maxproto=5,direct) hugetlbfs on /dev/hugepages type hugetlbfs (rw,relatime) mqueue on /dev/mqueue type mqueue (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /var/lock type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) debugfs on /sys/kernel/debug type debugfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /var/run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) /dev/sda4 on /home type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw,relatime) gvfsd-fuse on /run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) gvfsd-fuse on /var/run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) stat11:/home/ruben/ on /home/ruben/laptop type fuse.sshfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) What are you NUTS? This is my little workstation. It should just say this: /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) /dev/sda4 on /home type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) stat11:/home/ruben/ on /home/ruben/laptop type fuse.sshfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) These coders have completely lost their marbles. I have no CLUE why anything is being mounted any longer or where it is being mounted. It is a run away frieght train.

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-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 04:57:26PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):

...

...

because it has to know in what order to umount them

...

init systems don't need to unmount anything but the boot image sometimes.

You should look up the what sysvinit did. Hint: an init system is not only a startup system.

...

It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

Pull the plug and see if it matters. Or are you implying run level changes which are obviously handled quite adequately just like terminals and display systems, authorizations, and other services.... Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away. Here is a rundown of some things to read http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Remote-Serial-Console-HOWTO/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-13.html#ss13.3 ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/!INDEX.html Here download this, read it and install it. It will give you a decent idea what the hell is going on here ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/getty/getty_ps-2.1.1.tar.gz It will walk you through the whole system, more or less and teach you HOW your computer actually works, or did work..

...

Look at all this crap in the output now:

...

ruben@workstation:~> mount devtmpfs on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=943908k,nr_inodes=235977,mode=755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000) /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd) pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset) ...yada yada...

I agree. I solved it long ago with an alias in .bashrc that filters out the junk and leaves a result resembling the (useful) output from a decade ago, HD volumes plus nfs and samba shares. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/28/2014 07:34 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

Here is a rundown of some things to read

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Remote-Serial-Console-HOWTO/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-13.html#ss13.3 ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/!INDEX.html

I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is. It is is that with suitable changes to grub/lilo and hence to the kernel command line that a system can be booted for remote administration over a tty line, possibly connected to a modem, then so what? That's possible with systemd by a change in grub/lilo to the kernel boot command line as well. RTFM. Perhaps you need to rant about Plymouth instead. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.

False, it does not go away.

not anymore it doesn't.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:38:08PM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.

False, it does not go away.

Yes - you are correct :) It does not go completely away and I stand corrected!

it sits and waites for telinit calls

...

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):

...

It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]). The "stop" case, if you're wondering. My, my, my. I think I begin to understand why so many people jump on the systemd-train. Because they've never ever had even a cursory look at the init system... And never ever understood even the basics[1]. But what systemd* now has grown into, a warped bunch of binaries and libs, that just makes me shudder, cringe and regurgitate. Basically, a simple 'umount -a' should do the trick, as mount knows (from /proc mounts / /etc/mtab) what to unmount in what sequence. And yes, I can manually mount some iso to somewhere and it gets cleanly unmounted on shutdown/reboot. You do NOT need to track stuff. 'mount' and/or the kernel already do that for you. But noooo, pottering along had another NIH moment and had to reimplement stuff. -dnh [0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it [1] myself, I've always disliked an initrd with a vengance, but, knowing the basics, it was clear, that a distribution supposed to "run everywhere" has to use an initrd. So far, so good. No worries. Trouble is, when you _MUST_ use an initrd to boot. Or MUST provide some systemd crap ... If I'd actually puked as much as induced by systemd and stuff, I'd now probably weigh -500lbs or less. -- A feature is nothing more than a bug with seniority. -- Unknown source -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 01:43 (UTC+0200):

...

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):

...

...

...

It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab

...

...

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

...

RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).

Sorry for neglecting to excise the reference to storing anything. My comment was not about process details. I only meant to point out what was responsible for controlling the shutdown process on a system controlled by sysvinit.

...

I think I begin to understand why so many people jump on the systemd-train.

I'm not on the systemd train. Like many others, I've simply realized resistance became futile once the snowball was too big to stop. The horse left the barn long

If everyone who just gave up, despite having objections, would speak up against this catastrophe-in-the-making, that snowball would get melted quite quickly (say, 24 months). Cowardice facilitates evil.

ago. Until something as big and powerful as RedHat provides something promising to be better than systemd, openSUSE is destined to continue using systemd.

...

[0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it

Maybe you forgot yourself: os114host:~ # ls -lgG /etc/init.d/b*/*S* lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.proc -> ../boot.proc lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.udev -> ../boot.udev lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S02boot.rootfsck -> ../boot.rootfsck lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S03boot.clock -> ../boot.clock lrwxrwxrwx 1 21 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.device-mapper -> ../boot.device-mapper lrwxrwxrwx 1 19 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.loadmodules -> ../boot.loadmodules lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.localnet -> ../boot.localnet lrwxrwxrwx 1 10 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S07boot.md -> ../boot.md lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S10boot.localfs -> ../boot.localfs lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cleanup -> ../boot.cleanup lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cycle -> ../boot.cycle lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.klog -> ../boot.klog lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.swap -> ../boot.swap lrwxrwxrwx 1 18 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.udev_retry -> ../boot.udev_retry lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.ldconfig -> ../boot.ldconfig lrwxrwxrwx 1 14 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.sysctl -> ../boot.sysctl lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S14boot.ipconfig -> ../boot.ipconfig

Do you know why they exist, and why they are named as they are?

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On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):

...

It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).

Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-09-30 17:06, David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:

...

On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote: RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).

Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own.

That's what sysvinit did. On a runlevel change, it just runs the scripts according to the alphabetical sort of the S*/K* symlinks in rc?.d/. No magic involved.

Yep. A point, though: openSUSE modified system V in a way that it ignored all the symlinks in those "level" directories. It used another method, which I will not explain here; but anybody interested can look it up in the documentation for openSUSE 11.4, for instance, which I believe was the last release to use that method. The change came with parallelization of the starting up of the scripts, years before systemd was heard of. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do. But with 96G of buffer memory, doing a: #!/bin/bash function dropcaches () { echo -n "3"|sudo dd status=none of=/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches } time dropcaches can take well over 30 seconds -- as long as 50... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?

---- a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.

It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls.

--- Not the same. Sync comes back in 1-2 seconds. the cache flush takes 30-60 seconds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-10-02 15:26, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

...

...

a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.

It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls.

Not the same.

Sync comes back in 1-2 seconds.

the cache flush takes 30-60 seconds.

Then it is not needed, or else, the filesytem would be corrupted on next boot, and an fsck would detect it. On some filesystem, mount detects and aborts, on others, mount triggers the quick self repair mode.

Depends on the filesystem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:

...

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:

...

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?

It calls mount.. but that's not the point..

There is no database, only mount units..

And a "mount unit" is what exactly? And we need to have mounts split into TWO files, why, exactly

in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why? because it has to know in what order to umount them and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available.

Wow, that's pretty lame. /a/b/c needs to wait until /a/b is mounted. This isn't exactly a difficult to understand problem that calls for a whole new, obscure and arcane table of mounts written in some god-awful bastardization of XML. Unless of course, you're a Not-Invented-Here-so-it-must-die-die-die obsessed narcissist like Sievert & Poettering are providing perfect examples of being. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sam M. wrote:

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

With all due respect, Sam Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking. If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ianseeks wrote:

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Sam M. wrote:

...

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

With all due respect, Sam

liar

...

Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.

you implying you are an adult???

Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.

...

If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.

oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.

No. It's a sincere instruction. If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.

You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against. Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ? ............................ regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 30/09/14 14:38, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:

...

- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?

............................

Henne sadly is on vacation, so no one to shoo the trolls back under the bridge currently ;)

Ciao, marcus

Somebody should find the 3 Billy Goats Gruff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-09-30 17:01, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

Henne needs a backup person. :-) And he does a great job, by the way.

Absolutely. But apparently it has to be a SUSE employee. Help from the community was not accepted previously. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQqybUACgkQja8UbcUWM1wl5gD+JkhQelWuzoGVLK2pIZ/q3pus sUw14fJ096g5wYwHEI8A/jLhf1w9CcQqL625AMlQfwu2GoyBrNzBSqlxfYD9tqar =6Lbl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sam M. wrote:

The crazy rants about Systemd from those like "Dirk" who cannot make a

How about you respond to the complaints, instead of engaging in a campaignn of character assassination for anyone who disagrees with you? Oh, that's right..b.ecause you CAN'T address the criticisms cited in this thread.

sensible sentence and seems to have some sort of ongoing atrophy of the brain, just make the case for Systemd Stronger. So, in a sense,

So if I go to an insane asylum, and find someone who opposes the idea of turning Europe into a dictatorship run by Kim Jong Il, that makes the case for asuch a proposal only stronger. Log off, Net-Kook.

the crazy commentary from the peanut gallery is welcomed.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

pong... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:

- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?

How about systemd in the pstree output -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

winding him up is so easy but i will leave him alone now, i've had enough fun for a while --

another /dev/null -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ianseeks wrote:

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Sam M. wrote:

...

Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

With all due respect, Sam

liar

...

Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.

you implying you are an adult???

Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.

...

...

If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.

oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.

No. It's a sincere instruction.

If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.

...

You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.

Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.

aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?

See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old. How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life. You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sam M. wrote:

"Dirk",

Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to

Did I say to lock him up in a mental hospital and throw away the key? a) yes B) NO

diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder,

Learn the tell-tale tells, and it becomes pretty obvious

everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.

Yes, because Yoou have been appointed by ALL of them to speak for "EVERYBODY" I can tell you right off the bat that Linda Lynn Ruben and David Rankin all disagreee with you. Because each of them values truth over groupthink. So, be a good boy and kindly bend over and blow it out your ass.

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Sam M. wrote: > > Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this > list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality > moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.

With all due respect, Sam

liar

...

Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.

you implying you are an adult???

Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.

...

...

If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.

oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.

No. It's a sincere instruction.

If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.

...

You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.

Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.

aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?

See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.

How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.

You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sam M. wrote:

Dirk's an angry old troll, the split-personality type who talks big and bad over email but wouldn't dare say a word to someone's face as he does on here.

I don't suffer fools lightly. Strange how most people think that being behind a keyboard equates to permission to repeatedly repeat the same lies, over and over, even after they have been factually disproven. In face-to-face discussions, most people don't have to get to the point of expressing outrage and anger because the other party rarely stands in fronnt of you, repeating a dthrice-disproven lie, out of the common-sense fear that saying it again be responded to by a punch to the nose.

And that makes him just that; a troll. And not only

Troll -- someone who can back up his disagreements with Sam by citing facts.

that, but his arguments are childish rants with swear words and I (and

Do you have a better way of expressing utter contempt for liars, short of beating their smug little smirks into a toothless, bloody pulp?

I am sure others) don't even read them. Some of us have real work to get done, and aren't living on welfare like Dirk, who has all the time in the world to waste his SSI check on playing troll on openSUSE forums. Can we get rid of this little piece of trash please? Thank

You don't like how you're treated here when you repeatedly regurgitate lies?? Well, that's too damned bad, cupcake. Nobody cares if you're a special little snowflake or not. Now fuck off. We dont need liars like you clouding up the discussion.

you.

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Sam M. wrote:

...

"Dirk",

Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to

Did I say to lock him up in a mental hospital and throw away the key?

a) yes B) NO

...

diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder,

Learn the tell-tale tells, and it becomes pretty obvious

...

everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.

Yes, because Yoou have been appointed by ALL of them to speak for "EVERYBODY"

I can tell you right off the bat that Linda Lynn Ruben and David Rankin all disagreee with you.

Because each of them values truth over groupthink.

So, be a good boy and kindly bend over and blow it out your ass.

...

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote: > > > On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote: >> >> >> Sam M. wrote: >>> >>> >>> Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this >>> list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with >>> reality >>> moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. >> >> >> >> With all due respect, Sam > > > > liar > >> Sit the fuck down >> Shut the fuck up >> Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking. > > > > you implying you are an adult???

Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.

>> If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole. > > > > oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.

No. It's a sincere instruction.

If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.

> You should really keep in mind this quote :- > "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to > remove > all doubt."

So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.

Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.

aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?

See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.

How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.

You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ianseeks wrote:

On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 08:18:13 Sam M. wrote:

...

"Dirk",

Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder, everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.

it makes him feel superior. one day when he matures, he'll look back on this time of his life and cringe

I'm not the one exhibiting signs of Borderline Personality Disorder. You are. Figure it out, asshole.

...

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

ianseeks wrote:

...

On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote: > Sam M. wrote: >> Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this >> list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with >> reality >> moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. > > With all due respect, Sam

liar

> Sit the fuck down > Shut the fuck up > Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.

you implying you are an adult???

Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.

...

> If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.

oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.

No. It's a sincere instruction.

If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.

...

You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.

Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.

aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?

See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.

How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.

You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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