[opensuse] Getting rid of systemd and putting sysv back
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts ruben -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ? On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Oh no.. not this debate again. On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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S S wrote:
Oh no.. not this debate again.
Well, we're going to keep on having this debate until the idiocy of systemd is fixed.. which, judging by the overall structure, will be right about never. Sievert and Poeetering's attitude is -- we can do whatever we can get away with and force on the rest of the community. If that means kneecaping them to get them to understand that "getting away with it" will cease, then, I for one, am all for it.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On 09/24/2014 12:47 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Sievert and Poeetering's attitude is -- we can do whatever we can get away with and force on the rest of the community.
Just like UTS did with what we now call 'sysvinit' back at the start of the 1980s. UTS did a lot of things that were contrary to the vision of UNIX that Dennis had. Semaphores, for example. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 12:47 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Sievert and Poeetering's attitude is -- we can do whatever we can get away with and force on the rest of the community.
Just like UTS did with what we now call 'sysvinit' back at the start of the 1980s.
UTS init didn't replace a well-understood mechanism with some unholy horrorshow forcing administrators to essentially learn entire new languages (look at the systemd config files... the legal syntax is almost as complex as C, and is certainly much more complex than any assembly language I've ever programmed in.. And none of the shit is documented. All UTS did was MODERATELY extend the existing init architecture by adding runlevels.
UTS did a lot of things that were contrary to the vision of UNIX that Dennis had. Semaphores, for example.
Semaphores aren't in SysVInit... By the way, SysV-like runlevels were ALSO introduced in contemporary (early 1980's) versions of BSD, which did NOT have semaphores.
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Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending. On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Pottering never forced anything on anyone, all the distros took up SystemD and that's that. I don't really see you changing anything, although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay. On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
S S wrote:
Pottering never forced anything on anyone,
Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.
all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.
Geee, I wonder why. They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good? Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit. There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.
I don't really see you changing anything,
I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?
although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.
Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system. And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit, And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin... making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up? Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Funny how comfortable you must be hiding behind your computer monitor telling people "Fuck You", whereas if you were to say that right to my face I'd drop you. Seriously go take your meds because you literally are retarded and nobody cares about your stupid rants under your sock puppet account. Sorry that you have to live with a tiny penis. On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
S S wrote:
Pottering never forced anything on anyone,
Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.
all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.
Geee, I wonder why.
They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good?
Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.
There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.
I don't really see you changing anything,
I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?
although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.
Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system.
And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit,
And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin...
making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr
That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up?
Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió: > > > Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into > the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:04 AM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
Funny how comfortable you must be hiding behind your computer monitor telling people "Fuck You", whereas if you were to say that right to my face I'd drop you. Seriously go take your meds because you literally are retarded and nobody cares about your stupid rants under your sock puppet account. Sorry that you have to live with a tiny penis.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
S S wrote:
Pottering never forced anything on anyone,
Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.
all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.
Geee, I wonder why.
They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good?
Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.
There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.
I don't really see you changing anything,
I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?
although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.
Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system.
And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit,
And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin...
making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr
That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up?
Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote: > > > El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió: >> >> >> Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into >> the system scripts > > > > No. it is not possible. > > > -- > Cristian > "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to > please everybody." > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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* S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> [09-24-14 03:08]:
Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about.
Ah, appears aaron had assumed another alias, "S S". He is even taking to talking and answering himself :^( Making note, "Add another email addr to /dev/null". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I'm not Aaron On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
* S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> [09-24-14 03:08]:
Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about.
Ah, appears aaron had assumed another alias, "S S". He is even taking to talking and answering himself :^(
Making note, "Add another email addr to /dev/null".
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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S S wrote:
Dirk Gently stroks his micropenis while writing rants about SystemD that nobody cares about.
And here we see the true character of the SystemD supporters and how they respond when anyone confronts them with how much fucktardary and asshattery there is in the whole pile of systemd bullshit. As they say, Shutzstaffel... whatever. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
S S wrote:
Funny how comfortable you must be hiding behind your computer monitor telling people "Fuck You", whereas if you were to say that right to my
Whatever, Shutzstaffel.
face I'd drop you. Seriously go take your meds because you literally are retarded and nobody cares about your stupid rants under your sock puppet account. Sorry that you have to live with a tiny penis.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
S S wrote:
Pottering never forced anything on anyone,
Bullshit. If a deamon writer includes a systemd library call, then the installation MUST include the systemd libraries...and I have yet to see ANYONE offer the systemd libraries without all of the other systemd nonsense.
all the distros took up SystemD and that's that.
Geee, I wonder why.
They ALL decided that this pile of shit is actually the source of all that is sweet and good?
Buuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.
There's no other choice. Once a couple critical deamons have systemd library calls, then the entire systemd load of bullshit has to be installed.
I don't really see you changing anything,
I'm supposed to rewrite dozens of deamons to remove all of the systemd code?
although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.
Fuck off with your moronic demands that I have some sort of burden to personally, all by myself, go back and fix up all of the vandalism and crap done by these two who are GETTING PAID TO INTRODUCE THIS IDIOTIC, WINDOWS-LIKE Monolithic startup system.
And don't tell me it's not. Somehow, more and more services that USED to be independent things (such as time-of-day keeping, xinit,
And thene there's the idiocy of EVERYTHING in /sbin being moved to /usr/sbin and everyting in /bin moved to /usr/bin...
making it IMPOSSIBLE TO BOOT UP A SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATE /usr
That was blatant "Piss on you and your configuration...because there's nothing you can do to us for doing so." What am I supposed to do, fly to Germany to personally beat their heads in with A baseball bat if they don't UNFUCK everythin that they've fucked up?
Fuck you too, for defending their bullshit.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote: > > > El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió: >> >> >> Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into >> the system scripts > > > > No. it is not possible. > > > -- > Cristian > "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to > please everybody." > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Guys, please be kind to everyone and take this elsewhere. No matter what one might think of systemd and its authors, that train has long left the platform. Thanks Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, jeez, can't even let you guys alone for a couple of days. This thread is dead now, people have been thrown off the lists, all systemd threads are moderated again. Let's try again... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Mailinglist Admin http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 09:52:32PM -0700, S S wrote:
Pottering never forced anything on anyone, all the distros took up SystemD and that's that. I don't really see you changing anything, although you may think that complaining about it is going to change something. Well, it's not. Too many people are now stuck with SystemD and it's here to stay.
No. At least not yet, I still might have some choices. I'm not found of BSD but we'll see what is out there. Ruben
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:49 PM, S S <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD is dying, and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive, it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
S S wrote:
BSD is dying,
SystemD is causing a great many admins to move BACK to BSD
and the filesystem (ZFS) runs poorly on a single drive,
As if ZFS is the only filesystem....
it's for RAID environments. Actually just moved a server over from BSD to debian because vendor software support for our purposes was ending.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 00:45:44 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
You can do that but i'm sure if you are a good admin of your system, you'd be able to remove "systemd" and restore "sysvinit" or is that the problem for you? "sysvinit" is still an installable package in opensuse 13.1 repos.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 00:45:44 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
I'm thinking of moving to a BSD distribution.
You can do that but i'm sure if you are a good admin of your system, you'd be able to remove "systemd" and restore "sysvinit" or is that the problem for you?
I don't have time to play STUPID FUCKING GAMES undoing all of the malicious sabotage caused by Sievert and Poettering. Do you have the time to do it?
"sysvinit" is still an installable package in opensuse 13.1 repos.
And it's fucked.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:22:13AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
No. it is not possible.
-- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it: Slackware You can try making your own clicking all the distro links on http://distrowatch.com/ but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no others in the top 40. IIRC, 12.1 gave a default option to not use systemd. Mageia 1 didn't have it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Wed, 24 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
Gentoo, I think. Debian Stable. -dnh -- Dijkstra probably hates me. -- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-24 13:18 (UCT+0200):
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
Gentoo, I think. Debian Stable.
Debian is committed to systemd. It has 208 (same as 13.2) in testing, 211 in unstable. Wheezy (Stable) includes 44. Gentoo since this month has had 215+. Anyone know any pool for how long Slackware holds out? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Fri, 26 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-24 13:18 (UCT+0200):
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
Gentoo, I think. Debian Stable.
Debian is committed to systemd. It has 208 (same as 13.2) in testing, 211 in unstable. Wheezy (Stable) includes 44.
Gentoo since this month has had 215+.
==== http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd ==== systemd is a modern sysvinit & RC replacement for Linux systems. It is supported in Gentoo as an alternate init system. [..] This page was last modified on 10 September 2014, at 17:02. ==== See also <https://www.google.com/search?q=systemd+site:gentoo.org> -dnh -- Why is it defensive driving doesn't imply the use of defensive grenades? -- Ino!~ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:21:02AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
That would be strange to have to go back to slackware, but it that is it that is it at least until all the small progrms that have been swallowed up by systemd die of lack of support. Ruben
You can try making your own clicking all the distro links on http://distrowatch.com/ but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no others in the top 40.
IIRC, 12.1 gave a default option to not use systemd. Mageia 1 didn't have it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 01:21:02AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
That would be strange to have to go back to slackware, but it that is it that is it at least until all the small progrms that have been swallowed up by systemd die of lack of support.
And that's precisely why SystemD is the wrong way to do it. It's replacing small, separate programs, (which, although they have different syntaxes for their configuration files, those syntaxes are consisted with the needs of those daemons) with one giant craptastic pile of monolithic Redmondism...with a "uniform" syntax for configuration files, which is well-suited for absolutely NONE of the services which are being swallowed up. The separate deamons WILL survive in BSD... primarily because some arrogant vandal like Sievert or Poettering won't be allowed to fuck with things so needlessly.
Ruben
You can try making your own clicking all the distro links on http://distrowatch.com/ but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no others in the top 40.
IIRC, 12.1 gave a default option to not use systemd. Mageia 1 didn't have it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On 09/24/2014 01:21 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-24 00:28 (GMT-0400):
Is there a list of distros that don't uses systemd ?
If you are referring to current and supported releases, this might be it:
Slackware
You can try making your own clicking all the distro links on http://distrowatch.com/ but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no others in the top 40.
IIRC, 12.1 gave a default option to not use systemd. Mageia 1 didn't have it.
At the moment, PCLinuxOS doesn't use systemd. I don't know how long this will last. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
Not easily. Sievert and Poettering have sabotaged the deamons, so that if you don't have systemd installed, then there will be unresolved library calls. Thus, you can't uninstall systemd. Personally, i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism. And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
ruben
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Dirk Gently wrote on 2014-09-24 00:45 (GMT-0400):
Sievert and Poettering ...
... i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism.
And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
Or maybe not. http://ewontfix.com/14/ I understood and agreed with, toned down from your sentiment, but philsophically the same. I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht... -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote on 2014-09-24 00:45 (GMT-0400):
Sievert and Poettering ...
... i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism.
And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
Or maybe not. http://ewontfix.com/14/ I understood and agreed with, toned down from your sentiment, but philsophically the same. I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
Wow... let's see... /etc/inittab replaced by config files with dozens to hundreds of indecipherable, undocumented lines for even the simplest initializations some weird mechanism which intercepts $ /etc/init.d/[someservicename] restart and somehow maps it to some random-looking "systemd" command.... so the /etc/init.d structure is still there, but nothing there is actually meaningful.... which then just confuses the fuck out of everything process 1, init, .. an extremely short program, so short that it NEVER needs to be updated (and also takes exteremely few CPU cycles), is replaced by systemd, some big huge executable, which is a CPU hog, and sometimes needs to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT. The link you gave is some moron trying to handwave away all of the problems that systemd introduces, while still not providing very good solutions to the problems that we had with SysVInit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
/etc/inittab replaced by config files with dozens to hundreds of indecipherable, undocumented lines for even the simplest initializations
Please, do "rm -rf /etc/init.d" and reboot on any distribution that is based on sysvinit. By your own word, nothing under /etc/init.d is needed - only single file /etc/inittab.
some weird mechanism which intercepts
$ /etc/init.d/[someservicename] restart
If such mechanism did not exist, you would complaint about /etc/init.d/[someservicename] restart not working.
and somehow maps it to some random-looking "systemd" command....
so the /etc/init.d structure is still there, but nothing there is actually meaningful.... which then just confuses the fuck out of everything
Oh, so /etc/inittab was not enough? You still need /etc/init.d/with dozens of shell scripts with indecipherable, undocumented lines for even the simplest initializations?
process 1, init, .. an extremely short program, so short that it NEVER needs to be updated (and also takes exteremely few CPU cycles), is replaced by systemd, some big huge executable, which is a CPU hog, and sometimes needs to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.
Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.
Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?
It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do. Telcontar:~ # systemctl status systemd systemd.service Loaded: not-found (Reason: No such file or directory) Active: inactive (dead) Telcontar:~ # - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQipw0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UgkwCfeKVgJxwxBhvM7UDfT5GJjvBf PXMAn36xpufgzpMsXG587mBkLm9cHDoq =aUVZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.
Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?
It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.
systemctl daemon-reexec -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.
Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?
It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.
systemctl daemon-reexec
Eric S. Raymond makes a good point that whatever your process 1 is, it should NEVER NEED TO BE RESTARTED, and it should be SO SIMPLE THAT IT NEVER NEEDS TO BE REPLACED. This is one of MANY fundamental principles which SystemD violates, because, frankly, Sievert and Poettering are a couple of Narcisstic jerks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
В Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:25:00 -0400 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> пишет:
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-09-24 09:00, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
to be replaced.... thereby causing an IMMEDIATE NEED FOR A REBOOT.
Really? I restart systemd routinely. I did not need to reboot. What am I doing wrong?
It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.
systemctl daemon-reexec
Eric S. Raymond makes a good point that whatever your process 1 is, it should NEVER NEED TO BE RESTARTED, and it should be SO SIMPLE THAT IT NEVER NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.
This is one of MANY fundamental principles which SystemD violates,
/sbin/init is restarted during some RPM updates. On sysvinit systems.
because, frankly, Sievert and Poettering are a couple of Narcisstic jerks.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 13:25:00 Dirk Gently wrote:
Narcisstic jerks. sounds like pot kettle black to me
Really? Have I coerced dozens of deamon writers for systems used by millions of people to buy into my own, private, hare-brained model of computing, without any real discussion with the wider community about whether this is even a smart thing to do? Oh, I haven't. I guess that doesn't make the pot, then, does it, asshole. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-09-24 15:50, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
It is not widely known how... This moment, I don't remember. Last time I saw systemd in the output of "zypper ps", I rebooted, didn't know what else to do.
systemctl daemon-reexec
Thanks. I wrote that on a postit and stuck it to the screen. I hope to remember and try it next time ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQkSjkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UtYQCfZ/43ehUNet7AlZooCakMeu6+ WHUAoJSX+bBRTUxCMk174mGOH1hGXBq/ =zgcB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
That's excellent. Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist. The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded. There's a "Big Lie" being carried out by the anti-systemd people; they seem to think that if they make false claims often enough and loudly enough they can convince us about something that is quite demonstrably not the case. My background is mathematics and engineering and I'm inclined to "look to the evidence", and the evidence I see is that the claims of the anti-systemd people are not based on demonstrable facts and evidence, in fact the evidence contradicts what they say. And when people like aaron resort to suggesting using tactics normally practised by terrorists groups such as the IRA of the 1970s on individuals who are part of the systemd development group, well that says a lot about them. Perhaps the Homeland Security people should be advised of this. Lennart Poettering is just one individual in that group. Assassinating him, be it by character or by shotgun as the violent-minded aaron advocates, will not halt systemd development. Perhaps some people are too inclined to 'code' and don't understand how to use a declarative language rather than a procedural language. Perhaps that, too, is indicative of what schools and colleges are churning out as 'gunfodder' for the IT world these days. Which is sad. Highly parallel programming, the kind that is going to be needed to deal with highly parallel programming, will be more concerned with a 'declarative' model, with triggers and events, than the old procedural code. If the "UNIX Way" is limited to the models of "Software Tools" and other similar books then we are going to be stuck in what amounts to a stream-processing mode. That means the event-driven style needed to deal with GUIs as well as many real-time and 'headless' applications at which *NIX excels such as network processing, banking and finance and more don't fit any more than systemd fits. So obviously there's more to it than that. And that is why I think the 17 points in that article sum up 'The Unix Way" much better. That the anti-systemd people like aaron feel they have to resort to using shotguns and physical violence tells me a lot: that they have failed in any argument based on reason and so must resort to violence. As one philosopher said: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent". -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/09/14 13:40, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded. There's a "Big Lie" being carried out by the anti-systemd people; they seem to think that if they make false claims often enough and loudly enough they can convince us about something that is quite demonstrably not the case.
My background is mathematics and engineering and I'm inclined to "look to the evidence", and the evidence I see is that the claims of the anti-systemd people are not based on demonstrable facts and evidence, in fact the evidence contradicts what they say.
And when people like aaron resort to suggesting using tactics normally practised by terrorists groups such as the IRA of the 1970s on individuals who are part of the systemd development group, well that says a lot about them. Perhaps the Homeland Security people should be advised of this.
Lennart Poettering is just one individual in that group. Assassinating him, be it by character or by shotgun as the violent-minded aaron advocates, will not halt systemd development.
Perhaps some people are too inclined to 'code' and don't understand how to use a declarative language rather than a procedural language. Perhaps that, too, is indicative of what schools and colleges are churning out as 'gunfodder' for the IT world these days.
Which is sad. Highly parallel programming, the kind that is going to be needed to deal with highly parallel programming, will be more concerned with a 'declarative' model, with triggers and events, than the old procedural code.
If the "UNIX Way" is limited to the models of "Software Tools" and other similar books then we are going to be stuck in what amounts to a stream-processing mode. That means the event-driven style needed to deal with GUIs as well as many real-time and 'headless' applications at which *NIX excels such as network processing, banking and finance and more don't fit any more than systemd fits. So obviously there's more to it than that. And that is why I think the 17 points in that article sum up 'The Unix Way" much better.
That the anti-systemd people like aaron feel they have to resort to using shotguns and physical violence tells me a lot: that they have failed in any argument based on reason and so must resort to violence. As one philosopher said: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent".
I have no axe to grind about systemd, the "debate" is way over my head. What I "do" think is if anybody posts to this list implicit threats of violence (whether meant to be ironic or not) they and anybody else that behaves like that should be immediately barred from using this list. I have subscribed here since about 1989 I have never put back anything like what I have gained, but if it carries on like this I will say goodbye (without expecting to be missed the way C will be). M -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 24/09/14 13:59, michael norman wrote:
What I "do" think is if anybody posts to this list implicit threats of violence (whether meant to be ironic or not) they and anybody else that behaves like that should be immediately barred from using this list.
I have subscribed here since about 1989 I have never put back anything like what I have gained, but if it carries on like this I will say goodbye (without expecting to be missed the way C will be).
Dirk Gently is in my killfile. I therefore only see what he has written when he is quoted by others. My main reason for killfiling him and those like him is to remove the temptation to reply. What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve about. Bob - -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-21-desktop Distro: openSUSE 13.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.1 Uptime: 06:00am up 5 days 14:55, 4 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQizvUACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU4ngACeK0ZPP5tMBefoTCaI9BJZ+1+n 4rYAmwTm9SjUhnJFz6XANRlKbDavf4A7 =LRbR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:17AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
That's excellent.
And when people like aaron resort to suggesting using tactics normally practised by terrorists groups such as the IRA of the 1970s on individuals who are part of the systemd development group, well that says a lot about them. Perhaps the Homeland Security people should be advised of this.
You can not trust 'engineers' with the decision making power over your system because they tend to have fundementally flawed views of what is and is not acceptable use and design for technology. The use and implementation of technology is, as a fact, a social and political question, and not a technological one. Never the less, despite rants to the contrary, a huge number of individuals didn't wake up on a Tuesday morning and just decide to "attack" the project of systemd. There is REAL cause for rejecting systemd. But the number one reason is that, aside from it being un-unix like, for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB. A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd. Now that might be fine is say, postwar soviet East Germany, for my GNU system in NYC, I don't like it and I really don't like needing to needlessly relearn the root of the system to wrap it around this huge white elephant. That being said, I didn't ask this question to debate the merits of systemd, as few as there are. I'm not interested in systemd any more than I'm interested in Aqua, or Internet Explore and .Net. I've already made my decision about the merits and lack of merits of the program and I would like to remove it from my system, if I can. Ruben
Lennart Poettering is just one individual in that group. Assassinating him, be it by character or by shotgun as the violent-minded aaron advocates, will not halt systemd development.
Perhaps some people are too inclined to 'code' and don't understand how to use a declarative language rather than a procedural language. Perhaps that, too, is indicative of what schools and colleges are churning out as 'gunfodder' for the IT world these days.
Which is sad. Highly parallel programming, the kind that is going to be needed to deal with highly parallel programming, will be more concerned with a 'declarative' model, with triggers and events, than the old procedural code.
If the "UNIX Way" is limited to the models of "Software Tools" and other similar books then we are going to be stuck in what amounts to a stream-processing mode. That means the event-driven style needed to deal with GUIs as well as many real-time and 'headless' applications at which *NIX excels such as network processing, banking and finance and more don't fit any more than systemd fits. So obviously there's more to it than that. And that is why I think the 17 points in that article sum up 'The Unix Way" much better.
That the anti-systemd people like aaron feel they have to resort to using shotguns and physical violence tells me a lot: that they have failed in any argument based on reason and so must resort to violence. As one philosopher said: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent".
-- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/24/2014 10:39 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB.
Heck, UNIX was a huge power grab in the first place, so the tradition is upheld :-) -- sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Some of The BSD Developers have already been talking about porting systemd over to BSD. With Debian, Red Hat Inc and SUSE migrating to systemd pretty much all cloned GNU/Linux distros are migrating. I like a lot of what systemd is doing but there are some things I do not like. journald is one of my concerns placing logs into a binary format may be useful to help prevent compromised systems from having logging entries removed. With text files based logging it is relatively easy to remove some lines from the log to cover up the system compromise. Of course using an external log collector and forwarding copies of all entries to it helps to eliminate this threat. SystemD does allow for RSyslog or SyslogNG which good as plain text logs do have the added advantage of easy of use with a massive amount of GNU utilities to parse the with. I currently am unclear as to whether journald can even send copies to a remote log collection server but I am sure the developers have thought of this. Security vs ease of use is always a sticky situation. The kernel cgroups tracking feature is a great security enhancement and stability enhancement so intentionally malicious multi forked PID's can not be made hidden and used to prevent malicious process from being stopped or restarted as part of the parent process using sytemvint. I do not like the HTTP server integration at all and I do not want this at all journald is optional though. Gentoo still has not embraced systemd but it is an implemented option and required for GNOME 3. As long as you do not want to use GNOME 3 (Impossible now without systemd now) you can use Gentoo with a different choice of DE and systemvinit. There is at least a commercial book available, Fedora Linux Servers with systemd, that covers the Fedora 20 implementation of systemd. Once you understand the syntax it is at least easy to use and consistent for an OSS moving target development project. Sadly the authors writing style is that of a Historian and not a technology enthusiast though. I really do not care for the idea of integrating DBus into systemd and PID 1. I have heard some of the concerns being voiced about this and it sounds like trouble waiting to happen. Bottom line in the long run I personally think systemd will bring a lot to Linux even if it does require being forked sometime in the future to overhaul some aspects of it so its development is not a waist at all in my opinion. Once the larger community steps in and possibly forks it and host the fork at The Linux Foundation if possible I imagine a lot of these debates will end with more folks actually working on it. The beauty of FLOSS if you do not like a direction something is taking and your concerns are not adhered to then stick a fork in it and prove yours is better. If systemd was a Linux Foundation working group then LSB and other requirements could be added into this umbrella to create some useful standardization. One day their will be a Universal Linux Package format and package manager after someone actually convinces all the developers of current solutions to work together to produce a new a new one from scratch! Some of the arguments against systemd though seem to be being spoon fed by a GNU/Linux Hater or FUD campaign because they actually attack both systemvinit and systemd. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Timothy Butterworth escribió:
I do not like the HTTP server integration at all and I do not want this at all journald is optional though.
WUT? The journal does not have an HTTP server..
I really do not care for the idea of integrating DBus into systemd and PID 1. I have heard some of the concerns being voiced about this and it sounds like trouble waiting to happen.
Dbus is not integrated into systemd, never has and never will be.. where did you get this idea ? Not everything you read on the internet is true.
If systemd was a Linux Foundation working group then LSB and other requirements could be added into this umbrella to create some useful standardization.
placing a project like this in the hands of a bureaucratic standard busybody is something that would essentially make it disappear. as nobody sane will ever continue developing it under that conditions. Even less if you mention the LSB which is an awful idea that was horrendously executed. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 24/09/14 a las #4, Timothy Butterworth escribió:
I do not like the HTTP server integration at all and I do not want this at all journald is optional though.
WUT? The journal does not have an HTTP server..
I really do not care for the idea of integrating DBus into systemd and PID 1. I have heard some of the concerns being voiced about this and it sounds like trouble waiting to happen.
Dbus is not integrated into systemd, never has and never will be.. where did you get this idea ? Not everything you read on the internet is true.
If systemd was a Linux Foundation working group then LSB and other requirements could be added into this umbrella to create some useful standardization.
placing a project like this in the hands of a bureaucratic standard busybody is something that would essentially make it disappear. as
And with regards to systemd, that would be a good thing.
nobody sane will ever continue developing it under that conditions. Even less if you mention the LSB which is an awful idea that was horrendously executed.
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Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 10:39 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB.
Heck, UNIX was a huge power grab in the first place,
Wow... you are so ignorant of history. Unix was a side project originally conceived with ONE purpose -- to play "space war" because Multics couldn't handle the problem.
so the tradition is upheld :-)
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On 09/24/2014 10:39 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:17AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
/snip/
You can not trust 'engineers' with the decision making power over your system because they tend to have fundementally flawed views of what is and is not acceptable use and design for technology. The use and implementation of technology is, as a fact, a social and political question, and not a technological one. Never the less, despite rants to the contrary, a huge number of individuals didn't wake up on a Tuesday morning and just decide to "attack" the project of systemd. There is REAL cause for rejecting systemd. But the number one reason is that, aside from it being un-unix like, for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB. A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd. Now that might be fine is say, postwar soviet East Germany, for my GNU system in NYC, I don't like it and I really don't like needing to needlessly relearn the root of the system to wrap it around this huge white elephant.
That being said, I didn't ask this question to debate the merits of systemd, as few as there are. I'm not interested in systemd any more than I'm interested in Aqua, or Internet Explore and .Net. I've already made my decision about the merits and lack of merits of the program and I would like to remove it from my system, if I can.
Ruben
/snip/ I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd? I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed. I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Doug wrote:
On 09/24/2014 10:39 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:17AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
/snip/
You can not trust 'engineers' with the decision making power over your system because they tend to have fundementally flawed views of what is and is not acceptable use and design for technology. The use and implementation of technology is, as a fact, a social and political question, and not a technological one. Never the less, despite rants to the contrary, a huge number of individuals didn't wake up on a Tuesday morning and just decide to "attack" the project of systemd. There is REAL cause for rejecting systemd. But the number one reason is that, aside from it being un-unix like, for whatever that is, but it is a huge POWER GRAB. A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd. Now that might be fine is say, postwar soviet East Germany, for my GNU system in NYC, I don't like it and I really don't like needing to needlessly relearn the root of the system to wrap it around this huge white elephant.
That being said, I didn't ask this question to debate the merits of systemd, as few as there are. I'm not interested in systemd any more than I'm interested in Aqua, or Internet Explore and .Net. I've already made my decision about the merits and lack of merits of the program and I would like to remove it from my system, if I can.
Ruben
/snip/
I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd?
Personally ... for me, I never heard of uselessd before today. From what I've read so far, it's not perfect, but it's a FAR better solution than full-blown systemD. My biggest problem with systemd is NOT that it replaces init... but that it replaces init AND absorbs dozens of other deamons. Why the fuck is MOUNT not run at startup, but instead, by some some code inside systemD? there is absolutely NOTHING about mount that was broken...bot Sievert & Poettering think that systemd needs to mount fileysstems with THEIR CODE, not the existing mount command. Biggest case of "Not Invented Here" syndrome I've ever fucking seen... And wherever you find NIH syndrome, you find out-of-control Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Talk about fails at playing well with others...that's SystemD.
I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a
SystemD doesn't have nearly as many merits as advertised. read these pages: http://ewontfix.com/14 http://ewontfix.com/15
reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed.
If Uselessd is adopted, then "more fully developed" systemd will never be needed, which is why systemd supporters will yell and scream about it, and fight it tooth and nail.
I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization.
--doug
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
/snip/
I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd? I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed. I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization.
Not interested. I just want to go back to init and the /etc/rc.d directory of services. Am I to understand that the cores from my programs no longer go on the file system? How the hell did systemd get that deep into my computing environemt? Ruben
--doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
/snip/
I wonder why more of those who are making a big fuss about "A large number of well understood and well working tools have been absorbed in one fell swoop by systemd" are not looking into the proposed uselessd? I am not a programmer, but I think I understand the line I just quoted, and I think I understand the general thesis of uselessd, which is to solve that problem, while keeping such merits as systemd has. It would seem to me to be a reasonable approach, and a compromise that even the staunchest supporters of the present systemd might be willing to accept, when it becomes more fully developed. I would hope that those reading here who are programmers/developers would look into uselessd and assist in its finalization.
Not interested. I just want to go back to init and the /etc/rc.d directory of services.
Am I to understand that the cores from my programs no longer go on the file system? How the hell did systemd get that deep into my computing environemt?
Sievert and Poettering are Narcissistic powermongers. It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate, they have no qualms with replacing something like init with a new system that CANNOT BE SWAPPED OUT for some other init system.
Ruben
--doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian: If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole. Is that fair enough? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 30/09/14 14:21, ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.
Please don't feed the trolls. - -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-21-desktop -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQqr+sACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU5vcACffs5roDnwfv01cIaE2tQD6gMs 0P8An2rJS1D/AkKBZ3bRqljAsczy4AVD =rwX6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 14:28:14 Bob Williams wrote:
On 30/09/14 14:21, ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: > It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe > that ANY opinion that differs from their own is > illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot
so many times it must look like a teabag.
Please don't feed the trolls.
i know i shouldn't but someone with his attitude problem was just like shooting fish in a barrel. i had decided to stop winding him up today anyway, you can't have too much fun
-- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-21-desktop
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote:
It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY opinion that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.
How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me? Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly. You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine. For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous. By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you. I'd get that checked out if I were you... But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect. But YOU DO. Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/09/14 17:23, Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: > It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY > opinion > that differs from their own is illegitimate,
see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.
How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me?
Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly.
You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine.
For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous.
By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you.
I'd get that checked out if I were you...
But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect.
But YOU DO.
Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy.
Dunno. Madrid or Barcelona maybe? Or somewhere quieter for a shorter length of time. Adelaide for example. HTH, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
what do You want to achieve with Your senseless discussion, guys is it effective for the linux community or what hans On 09/30/2014 05:58 PM, lynn wrote:
On 30/09/14 17:23, Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote: > On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: >> It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY >> opinion >> that differs from their own is illegitimate, > > see i was correct, pot kettle black
Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.
How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me?
Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly.
You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine.
For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous.
By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you.
I'd get that checked out if I were you...
But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect.
But YOU DO.
Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy.
Dunno. Madrid or Barcelona maybe? Or somewhere quieter for a shorter length of time. Adelaide for example. HTH, L x
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Hans Walter Finckh wrote:
what do You want to achieve with Your senseless discussion, guys is it effective for the linux community or what
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
hans On 09/30/2014 05:58 PM, lynn wrote:
On 30/09/14 17:23, Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:16:12 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:39:23 Dirk Gently wrote: > ianseeks wrote: >> On Saturday 27 Sep 2014 19:58:28 Dirk Gently wrote: >>> It really is that simple -- because, narcissists believe that ANY >>> opinion >>> that differs from their own is illegitimate, >> >> see i was correct, pot kettle black > > Still ignoring the facts in favor of playground platitudes, I see.
you just keep proving you're as bad as those you accuse, would probably best for you to stop digging.
I've got a deal for you Ian:
If you dont act like an ignorant asshole, and I won't treat you like an ignorant asshole.
Is that fair enough?
:) No one ever has to shoot you, you've shot yourself in the foot so many times it must look like a teabag.
How about you address the topic rather than trying to continually distract from the question at hand and make it all about demonizing me?
Oh, that's right..because now that I've spoken in disagreement with you directly, I'm on your "black list" and you are fully consumed with a single-minded passion to destroy me personally and publicly.
You're loosing it, you childish little BPD rage machine.
For one, teabags don't have big holes in them... Swiss cheese, yes, but tea bags are merely porous.
By the way, the reason your Bipolar meds never get the results you so desperately crave is because Bipolar Disorder is the most common misdiagnosis of BPD. Bipolar Disorder is a chemical imbalance, whereas YOUR problem is the insane way your parents raised you.
I'd get that checked out if I were you...
But then again, unlike you, I don't try to destroy EVERYONE who says the slightest negative thing about me in a never-ending attempt to make the entire world think I'm perfect.
But YOU DO.
Go find a hypno-therapist who knows how to deal with deep-seated emotional issues going back to infancy.
Dunno. Madrid or Barcelona maybe? Or somewhere quieter for a shorter length of time. Adelaide for example. HTH, L x
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/09/14 18:43, Dirk Gently wrote:
Hans Walter Finckh wrote:
what do You want to achieve with Your senseless discussion, guys is it effective for the linux community or what
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
Liars? All I'm trying to do is to write a list of cities and countries. TIA, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.
Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.
Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.
Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.
Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.
Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days.
So you are a poofter! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 01:17 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
So you are a poofter!
Is that better or worse than being accused of being a marxist? -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 12:17 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote: > > Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of > the discussion.
I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this discussion.
Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.
Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.
Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days.
So you are a poofter!
Definition please. Not familiar with that term. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 04:28 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Not familiar with that term ..............
- a 'fairy' .................. regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 08:38 AM, ellanios82 wrote:
On 10/01/2014 04:28 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Not familiar with that term ..............
- a 'fairy'
..................
regards
That's what I thought but wanted to be sure. For the record: I have no need in my life for a three legged, hairy, asshole. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 09:28 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 10/01/2014 12:17 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 02:26 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2014 01:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote: > On 09/30/2014 11:43 AM, Dirk Gently wrote: >> >> Right now, the immediate goal is to get the proven liars out of >> the discussion. > > I got a better goal for you. Get back on your meds and end this > discussion. > Fuck you, too, Billie.
Best offer I've had so far today. But your not my type.
Marlon Brando Look-alike Association, I'm sure.
Marlon Brando was quite the heart throb in his early days.
So you are a poofter!
Definition please. Not familiar with that term.
British term for a queer. A homosexual. Probably male only, but don't know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
So you are a poofter!
Definition please. Not familiar with that term.
British term for a queer. A homosexual. Probably male only, but don't know.
It is an allusion to one who's anus has gone slack and is unable to make a suitable fart noise but can only 'poof'. Tom -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Enough already. Grow up, or take it private. At best you're embarrassing yourselves. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
grantksupport@operamail.com wrote:
Enough already. Grow up, or take it private. At best you're embarrassing yourselves.
---- Bleh. Just toss a filter in your mailer for any subject containing systemd or author that bothers you. Don't bother the whole list with your laziness in managing your own email. If this was a children's list, your request might be appropriate, but, think about what you are saying... you are saying you don't want to deal with this yourself, so you are asking a parental figure to block everyone's "discussion"[sic] -- just for you. Is that really what you want? This topic keeps coming up and the vehemence comes and goes -- but people right now are claiming that not enough protesting was done farther back to prevent the state things are in now. And people back a year or two ago warned about this very reaction when systemd hit the wider audience and were ignored... eventually people who are disgusted with the Microsoftian take-over of linux will either give up or fork... (or move to macs?... arg!) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/02/2014 06:25 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
(or move to macs?... arg!)
Double arg!! I like Apple about as much as I do Micro$oft! They lie. For example, they were heavily marketing a new feature for IOS-8 where your I-Phone's MAC address would be randomized so that you couldn't be tracked by WiFi as you wandered through your life. So imagine my shock when I learned this morning (*) that, while the feature is there under certain very narrow conditions, your MAC address is not randomized for most use cases. Apple should make the claimed feature work as advertised, or admit that it lied. If you catch someone in a security-related lie, can you ever trust them again? Why, you could find all your obscene selfies posted all over the Internet! (**) Regards, Lew (*) heard from Steve Gibson on a TWIT podcast (**) no, don't bother looking for my obscene selfies! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/09/14 18:07, Hans Walter Finckh wrote:
what do You want to achieve with Your senseless discussion, guys is it effective for the linux community or what
No? How about somewhere in Africa? Nigeria for example. Any better? L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented. If I can't bring up my system to full GUI status, no amount of online webpages are worth a single shit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 .html> That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me NAME systemd, init - systemd system and service manager SYNOPSIS systemd [OPTIONS...] init [OPTIONS...] {COMMAND} DESCRIPTION systemd is a system and service manager for Linux operating systems. When run as first process on boot (as PID 1), it acts as init system that brings up and maintains userspace services. For compatibility with SysV, if systemd is called as init and a PID that is not 1, it will execute telinit and pass all command line arguments unmodified. That means init and telinit are mostly equivalent when invoked from normal login sessions. See telinit(8) for more information. When run as system instance, systemd interprets the configuration file system.conf, otherwise user.conf. See systemd-system.conf(5) for more information. OPTIONS The following options are understood: -h, --help Prints a short help text and exits.
If I can't bring up my system to full GUI status, no amount of online webpages are worth a single shit.
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On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 .html> That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me
Not only that! $ apropos systemd| wc -l 130 aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I had before systemd and have nothing to do with systemd and everything to do with Xorg, the drivers and kernel modules. I expect to have similar problems whenever I change my graphics hardware. Attributing these problems to systemd is just part of the Big Lie that people such as aaron-as-dirk engage in. If you look to history and see example of major players who practised the Big Lie technique of persuading people, you'll realise that such people do not have your best interests at heart, nor, if history is to be a judge, the best interests of society at large. Hopefully you will more sensitive to the Big Lie techniques that masses have been in the past and not be persuaded. -- "Nothing is more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things." -- Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/09/14 18:07, Anton Aylward wrote:
If you look to history and see example of major players who practised the Big Lie technique of persuading people, you'll realise that such people do not have your best interests at heart, nor, if history is to be a judge, the best interests of society at large. Hopefully you will more sensitive to the Big Lie techniques that masses have been in the past and not be persuaded.
Goebbels. OT but the technique still works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/25/2014 04:05 PM, michael norman wrote:
Goebbels.
Among quite a few other from about that time. Yes, it was a time of ranting mad-men who held great political power, the world over.
OT but the technique still works.
Sad but true. Despite better informed and more sceptical media, despite the Internet and and despite debunkers, there are still, at all levels of society, throughout the world, those espousing nonsense and those who would rather believe than than approach things rationally. I recall in the 1960/70s there was Eric von Daniken and the cloud of belief in "Ancient Spacemen" to explain away the pyramids and other great historic works. How insulting this was to our ancestors. But while it's easy to speculate, disproving such takes work, and that work *has* been done. Palaeolithic re-enactors have raised menhirs and archaeology have uncovered the living quarters and quartermasters records of the workers who built the pyramids. It takes no budget to write unfounded fiction, but a lot of time, effort and hence budget to do serious, documented, methodical archaeological work. But just as with systemd, there are those who refuse to face evidence and deny those who have put the time and effort into design, coding testing, re-design, metricating AND DOCUMENTING each stage of that. That such nay-sayers and denigraters have nothing else of comparative details and quality to offer and also espouse violence puts them in much the same class as the practitioners of the Big Lie approach to management of the political leaders and their hence-men that I, and michael, were referring to. -- For ages, a deadly conflict has been waged between a few brave men and women of thought and genius upon the one side, and the great ignorant religious mass on the other. This is the war between Science and Faith. The few have appealed to reason, to honor, to law, to freedom, to the known, and to happiness here in this world. The many have appealed to prejudice, to fear, to miracle, to slavery, to the unknown, and to misery hereafter. The few have said "Think" The many have said "Believe!" --Robert Ingersoll (Gods) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 04:59:31PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 04:05 PM, michael norman wrote:
Goebbels.
Among quite a few other from about that time. Yes, it was a time of ranting mad-men who held great political power, the world over.
OT but the technique still works.
Sad but true. Despite better informed and more sceptical media, despite the Internet and and despite debunkers, there are still, at all levels of society, throughout the world, those espousing nonsense and those who would rather believe than than approach things rationally.
I recall in the 1960/70s there was Eric von Daniken and the cloud of belief in "Ancient Spacemen" to explain away the pyramids and other great historic works. How insulting this was to our ancestors. But while it's easy to speculate, disproving such takes work, and that work *has* been done. Palaeolithic re-enactors have raised menhirs and archaeology have uncovered the living quarters and quartermasters records of the workers who built the pyramids. It takes no budget to write unfounded fiction, but a lot of time, effort and hence budget to do serious, documented, methodical archaeological work.
Really, that is quite a rant having zero to do with any topic.
But just as with systemd, there are those who refuse to face evidence
No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed. But it is not a "fiction" that systemd has absorbed a large number of segments of the gnu system and has broken compatability with said systems as well. The fiction is that there is a need to replace the init system at all, and it can take all day and all night to go through the rationality for even needed to replace it at all, let alone allow monolithic behemoth take over everything from getty processes, login programs, serial port emulators, logging systems, fs system mounting, device recognition and kernel module loading, X11 startup and logging, initiation of databases, webserver, programming environemts including cores...and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. It is a damn nightmare, really. Then on top of that, it is evidently written like such pure crap that Linus had to run its developers off the kernal mailing list. Its not a refusal to face 'evidence'. It is being dead set against ONE PROGRAM being resonsible for so many different aspects of the systems operation, and making the system so damn hard to understand, alter and to use. I couldn't give a damn if this systemd was laced with pure gold and blessed by Barrack Obama himself. I don't WANT this thing running my computer, which is what it does and which is a LONG WAY from an innovation or a replacement for sysVinit. Taking the vast majority of system controls and cludging them all together as a single monolithic program is not "New" or "innovative". It just SUCKS and it is why I dumped other OSs previously. I want a simple, easy to access computer system that I can bend to my will. I want files that I can read and understand. I want configuration and initiation of services and program to be according to the design of the developers of those programs, according to their manuals. There is no argument you can make in favor of this peice of garbage other than to get rid of it. It's design is a power grab over the OS.
and deny those who have put the time and effort into design, coding testing, re-design, metricating AND DOCUMENTING each stage of that.
Don't do then because I don't like the jail you built. BTW - this is not a great morality play between fair minded systemd authors and the ignorant superstitous masses. This is a plain old fashion power grab. There is no logical reason for this design other than to centralize control of the future design of the GNU based OSs of the future by reducing the numbers of contributors to the system and making them comply with the developers of systemd. This is a HUMAN problem. Not a technological one. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 25/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.
I have a question.. are you trolling or are really this ignorant ? because everything you said above is not true in any detail whatsoever. You are talking about something you clearly have no clue about and making a fool of yourself in the process. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 08:46:43PM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 25/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.
I have a question.. are you trolling or are really this ignorant ? because everything you said above is not true in any detail whatsoever.
You are talking about something you clearly have no clue about and making a fool of yourself in the process.
And that is why it is not worth discussing. This is a brain dead response and I'm not sure if you are intentially lieing, or just over the top brainwashed. But either way, none of this will be solved in this venue. But not everyone lives in that alternate reality. Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 25/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.
I have a question.. are you trolling or are really this ignorant ? because everything you said above is not true in any detail whatsoever.
Hey, Cristian, if that's all you can come up with in response to his rational argument based on the facts on the ground, how about you just bend over and blow it out your ass.
You are talking about something you clearly have no clue about and making a fool of yourself in the process.
Moron. See? I can make trite, meaningless arguments too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben: since I subscribe to the list there is no point in cc'ing me as well. On 09/25/2014 07:23 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 04:59:31PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 04:05 PM, michael norman wrote:
Goebbels.
Among quite a few other from about that time. Yes, it was a time of ranting mad-men who held great political power, the world over.
Really, that is quite a rant having zero to do with any topic.
YMMV. Some do well with analogies in the real, the physical world and with examples out of history. Those who can't learn from history, as one philosopher said, are doomed to repeat it.
But just as with systemd, there are those who refuse to face evidence
No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed.
And fixed. Just like Linux has ALWAYS been, its "in development" because its FOSS. While commercial software can afford a testing period "in house" before release (though Apple's recent retraction after just one day of an update that quite obviously wasn't adequately tested) the development cycles we have rely more on 'suck it an see' by the community. People often forget this, as was the case with KDE4 as well. Too many people adopted 4.0 and found it, quite understandably and quite rationally, buggy and deficient and incomplete. Well what did you expect? Now at 4.12 we have an excellent product. Yes there are still KDE3-naysayers criticising it, but many of the criticisms are about design principle differences, which were clearly stated up front. KDE4 was not meant to be an evolution of KDE3; perhaps calling it "KDE" was the mistake. Starting off with a new name might have made people less inclined to adopt it so early. But the flip side of that is that all those early adopters gave feedback to the developers. At least 'systemd' doesn't have the naming problem. But it does have a problem with many people doing what you are doing, Ruben and attributing shortcomings that are part of the development process to the latest product. "Yes it used to be, but we changed all that". Google is being forced in EU to "forget" entries about certain people. Perhaps we need a "forget" for the issues to do with systemd that no longer apply.
But it is not a "fiction" that systemd has absorbed a large number of segments of the gnu system and has broken compatability with said systems as well.
More "Big Lie". Sorry. Sometimes I think of a cartoon I saw about a small boy pulling at the loose thread on his woolly jumper. The last frame of the cartoon has him with a big ball of wool and no jumper. In eliminating the shell scripts of sysvinit the 'tread' leads to other things, and the API and 'declarative programming' model of systemd means other system admin functions can make use of the API. But as Michael Norman (I think it was) pointed out, the new generation of Linux being used by commercial interests and to effectively use virtual machines and chroot jails relies heavily on cgroups and the like for resource management, then 'systemctl' is a reasonable way to manage them and the process groups.
The fiction is that there is a need to replace the init system at all,
That is not a fiction.
let alone allow monolithic behemoth take over everything from getty processes, login programs, serial port emulators, logging systems, fs system mounting, device recognition and kernel module loading, X11 startup and logging, initiation of databases, webserver, programming environemts including cores...and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. It is a damn nightmare, really. Then on top of that, it is evidently written like such pure crap that Linus had to run its developers off the kernal mailing list.
Another Big Lie. As has been shown a number of times, systemd is far from monolithic. Much of what you bemoan is actually a more rational way of starting, stopping and restarting functions that was present or even available with sysvinit. The 'declarative' mechanism of the 'units' makes each item well contained and makes the dependency three vry clear and easy to understand, something that simply is not possible with the programmatic nature of sysvinit. That helps in debugging as well. BTDT. And you are wrong to say that it 'takes over'. There are many example of this way of working in UNIX and Linux. The big difference is that (a) the units are seperate files rather than lines in a file, as with, for example, inetd; and (b) dependencies are made explcit. That latter case is interesting. In my /etc/fstab I have to mount /home, then /home/anton, then (among others) /home/anton/media, and once "media" is mounted only then can I mount "music" and "photographs". With /etc/fstab this is a matter of the lines being in the correct order; mature users know that :-) "Mature" meaning "experienced". "Experienced" meaning "having made a mistake and learnt from it". Right now, one of the auxiliary programs of the systemd suite scans the /etc/fstab and converts it to unit files with explicit dependency. I could have simply set up the unit file myself. See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5) <quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote> The 'generator' is an open specification. There is no reason someone can't write a generator to statically or dynamically generate units, perhaps from a table. Lets face it, there are UNIX/Linux systems out there where the configuration is NOT in the tables in /etc/ which we are used to but in an LDAP database. That includes such things as the user accounts and passwords. Nothing new here; Berkeley was using databases for user accounts back in the 1980s since even binary sorted /etc/password took too long to parse. Eventually this became NIS/YP or on some systems LDAP.
Its not a refusal to face 'evidence'. It is being dead set against ONE PROGRAM being resonsible for so many different aspects of the systems operation, and making the system so damn hard to understand, alter and to use.
Big Lie at work again. The sysvinit setup was programmatic and the ONE PROGRAM that was responsible for so many aspects of system operation was the shell. To alter how things worked under sysinit you not only needed to be a programmer, but you had to manually figure out code paths and side effect. With systemd the init process is all declarative and very clear. Lets face it; both the shell scripts of sysvinit and the unit files of systemd make use of other programs. Despite the Big Lie inmplied and often stated by the anti-systemd crowd, systemd does NOT mount file systems, start the GUI, initiate databases or web servers. Just like the shell code in sysvinit it makes use of axillary programs. It makes use of 'mount' and 'unmount; of /sbin/agetty; of /usr/sbin/cron; of /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon; of /usr/sbin/start_apache2 ... and more. All that is clear simply by inspecting a running system.
Taking the vast majority of system controls and cludging them all together as a single monolithic program is not "New" or "innovative".
Indeed, but that's NOT what systemd is doing. Saying it is doing that is a Big Lie. The evidence is to the contrary.
I want a simple, easy to access computer system that I can bend to my will. I want files that I can read and understand.
Unit files are that; they are well documented; each thing addresses one thing and one thing only; they all follow the same syntax and rules. Sadly many scripts have been accumulated from different sources and often don't have the same syntax and style.
This is a plain old fashion power grab.
UNIX always was a power grab.
This is a HUMAN problem. Not a technological one.
All problems are human problems. It's humans, not turtles, all the way down. -- "Preconceived notions are the locks on the door to wisdom". -- Merry Browne -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5)
<quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote>
Which violates the computing principle of ONE SOURCE for each piece of data. Having both /etc/fstab and "mounting units" (whatever the FUCK that means), is deliberately taking things back to the 1950's, when, frankly, we didn't understand principles of sound programming practices nearly as well as we do today. Seriously, the whole systemd thing look like 2 refugees from the 1950's (or East Germany, take you pick) suddenly decided to "improve" the most advanced operating system in the world with pie-in-the-sky ideas which conveniently forget to include DECADES of accumulated computing wisdom. If you want your computer controlled by a monolithic, incomprehensible monstrosity, Microsoft has an operating system for YOU. Now, please leave Linux alone, and take your SystemD with you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5)
<quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote>
Which violates the computing principle of ONE SOURCE for each piece of data.
Having both /etc/fstab and "mounting units" (whatever the FUCK that means), is deliberately taking things back to the 1950's, when, frankly, we didn't understand principles of sound programming practices nearly as well as we do today.
Seriously, the whole systemd thing look like 2 refugees from the 1950's (or East Germany, take you pick) suddenly decided to "improve" the most advanced operating system in the world with pie-in-the-sky ideas which conveniently forget to include DECADES of accumulated computing wisdom.
If you want your computer controlled by a monolithic, incomprehensible monstrosity, Microsoft has an operating system for YOU.
Now, please leave Linux alone, and take your SystemD with you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount? I'm seriously interested in the twisted thinking that would construct this. The answer seems to be that they don't want mount or /etc/fstab files and just decided to throw the ole unix guys a bone. I wonder if you can rip up systemd and use it for Windows. They don't have a clearly readable, easy to understand /etc/fstab file either. and when windows mounts things all screwed up and backwards, I have no idea how to fix it and neither does MS. Just stuff everything into regedit and hope it works. I'm not sure what is sadder, that this was adopted and written with Red Hats blessing, that it has been widely implimented, OR that you have supposed 'engineers' and free software people defending this.
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
See SYSTEMD.MOUNT(5)
<quote> Mount units may either be configured via unit files, or via /etc/fstab (see fstab(5) for details). Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded. See systemd-fstab-generator(8) for details about the conversion. </quote>
Which violates the computing principle of ONE SOURCE for each piece of data.
Having both /etc/fstab and "mounting units" (whatever the FUCK that means), is deliberately taking things back to the 1950's, when, frankly, we didn't understand principles of sound programming practices nearly as well as we do today.
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El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?
It calls mount.. but that's not the point.. There is no database, only mount units..in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why? because it has to know in what order to umount them and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 03:34:46AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?
It calls mount.. but that's not the point..
There is no database, only mount units..in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why?
Does this sentence make sence to you? What are you saying? It clearly says that the entries in fstab are used to make 'mount units' and that is only if there is an fstab. In the case of fstab they are used...? fstab is a text file. It doesn't use ANYTHING. It is read by init and mount in order to control their behavior.
because it has to know in what order to umount them
init systems don't need to unmount anything but the boot image sometimes.
and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available.
That is NOT the role of an initiation system. Now, it is a database it created. It is a database of mount points with further instructions and other crap. If this in binary so that it is 'secure'? Guess what. fstab also has an order. and no, it doesn't need to know if users need mounts and when they need mounts or for what purpose. It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab, low and behold in the order they are listed. It does not need to 'interact'. If just needs to do what I tell it to do. It doesn't need to guess. It doesn't need to prioritize. It certainly doesn't have to guess wrong. It doesn't need to start NFS or SAMBA or even mail or cron. It just needs to mount the partitions that I list in fstab. It doesn't need to think for me. It just has to do what I tell it to. As it is, you guys have destroyed the mount command with the same kind of chatter that ticked off Linus when he was discussing kernel debugging. Look at all this crap in the output now: ruben@workstation:~> mount devtmpfs on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=943908k,nr_inodes=235977,mode=755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000) /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd) pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu,cpuacct type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuacct,cpu) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/memory type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,memory) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/devices type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,devices) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/freezer type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,freezer) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/net_cls type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,net_cls) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/blkio type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,blkio) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/perf_event type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,perf_event) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/hugetlb type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,hugetlb) systemd-1 on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type autofs (rw,relatime,fd=27,pgrp=1,timeout=300,minproto=5,maxproto=5,direct) hugetlbfs on /dev/hugepages type hugetlbfs (rw,relatime) mqueue on /dev/mqueue type mqueue (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /var/lock type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) debugfs on /sys/kernel/debug type debugfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /var/run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) /dev/sda4 on /home type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw,relatime) gvfsd-fuse on /run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) gvfsd-fuse on /var/run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) stat11:/home/ruben/ on /home/ruben/laptop type fuse.sshfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) What are you NUTS? This is my little workstation. It should just say this: /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) /dev/sda4 on /home type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) stat11:/home/ruben/ on /home/ruben/laptop type fuse.sshfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=100) These coders have completely lost their marbles. I have no CLUE why anything is being mounted any longer or where it is being mounted. It is a run away frieght train.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
because it has to know in what order to umount them
init systems don't need to unmount anything but the boot image sometimes.
You should look up the what sysvinit did. Hint: an init system is not only a startup system.
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
Look at all this crap in the output now:
ruben@workstation:~> mount devtmpfs on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=943908k,nr_inodes=235977,mode=755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000) /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd) pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset) ...yada yada...
I agree. I solved it long ago with an alias in .bashrc that filters out the junk and leaves a result resembling the (useful) output from a decade ago, HD volumes plus nfs and samba shares. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 04:57:26PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
because it has to know in what order to umount them
init systems don't need to unmount anything but the boot image sometimes.
You should look up the what sysvinit did. Hint: an init system is not only a startup system.
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
Pull the plug and see if it matters. Or are you implying run level changes which are obviously handled quite adequately just like terminals and display systems, authorizations, and other services.... Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away. Here is a rundown of some things to read http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Remote-Serial-Console-HOWTO/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-13.html#ss13.3 ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/!INDEX.html Here download this, read it and install it. It will give you a decent idea what the hell is going on here ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/getty/getty_ps-2.1.1.tar.gz It will walk you through the whole system, more or less and teach you HOW your computer actually works, or did work..
Look at all this crap in the output now:
ruben@workstation:~> mount devtmpfs on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=943908k,nr_inodes=235977,mode=755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,relatime) tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,mode=755) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000) /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered) proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd) pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset) ...yada yada...
I agree. I solved it long ago with an alias in .bashrc that filters out the junk and leaves a result resembling the (useful) output from a decade ago, HD volumes plus nfs and samba shares. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 07:34 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
No it doesn't. Inittab is a configuration file. It is read and interpreted by the init daemon. You are confusing the action determined by that table with the actual table itself. Init never goes away. The subshells it forks in executing the shell scripts in /etc/init.d may go away, but so what? If I were to run them manually from the command line with a subshell that subshell would go away on completion just as with any other script being executed. Well that's not quite true; that's only true if its a shell script. If its a perl or ruby script there's no subshell :-) -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- Me...a skeptic? I trust you can prove that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 07:34 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Here is a rundown of some things to read
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Remote-Serial-Console-HOWTO/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-13.html#ss13.3 ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/serial/!INDEX.html
I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is. It is is that with suitable changes to grub/lilo and hence to the kernel command line that a system can be booted for remote administration over a tty line, possibly connected to a modem, then so what? That's possible with systemd by a change in grub/lilo to the kernel boot command line as well. RTFM. Perhaps you need to rant about Plymouth instead. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:
Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
False, it does not go away. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:
Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
False, it does not go away.
not anymore it doesn't.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:
Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
False, it does not go away.
Yes - you are correct :) It does not go completely away and I stand corrected!
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:38:08PM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:
Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
False, it does not go away.
Yes - you are correct :) It does not go completely away and I stand corrected!
it sits and waites for telinit calls
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:38:08PM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:34, Ruben Safir wrote:
Not through init or mount, but by the runing for mostly bourn scripts in the init directory and sylinked as S01 S02 etc. Do you need a rundown on how inittab works? It works by running, spawning something and then goign away.
False, it does not go away.
Yes - you are correct :) It does not go completely away and I stand corrected!
it sits and waites for telinit calls
It also waits for exit codes from respawn processes (example: getty) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]). The "stop" case, if you're wondering. My, my, my. I think I begin to understand why so many people jump on the systemd-train. Because they've never ever had even a cursory look at the init system... And never ever understood even the basics[1]. But what systemd* now has grown into, a warped bunch of binaries and libs, that just makes me shudder, cringe and regurgitate. Basically, a simple 'umount -a' should do the trick, as mount knows (from /proc mounts / /etc/mtab) what to unmount in what sequence. And yes, I can manually mount some iso to somewhere and it gets cleanly unmounted on shutdown/reboot. You do NOT need to track stuff. 'mount' and/or the kernel already do that for you. But noooo, pottering along had another NIH moment and had to reimplement stuff. -dnh [0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it [1] myself, I've always disliked an initrd with a vengance, but, knowing the basics, it was clear, that a distribution supposed to "run everywhere" has to use an initrd. So far, so good. No worries. Trouble is, when you _MUST_ use an initrd to boot. Or MUST provide some systemd crap ... If I'd actually puked as much as induced by systemd and stuff, I'd now probably weigh -500lbs or less. -- A feature is nothing more than a bug with seniority. -- Unknown source -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 01:43 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Sorry for neglecting to excise the reference to storing anything. My comment was not about process details. I only meant to point out what was responsible for controlling the shutdown process on a system controlled by sysvinit.
I think I begin to understand why so many people jump on the systemd-train.
I'm not on the systemd train. Like many others, I've simply realized resistance became futile once the snowball was too big to stop. The horse left the barn long ago. Until something as big and powerful as RedHat provides something promising to be better than systemd, openSUSE is destined to continue using systemd.
[0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it
Maybe you forgot yourself: os114host:~ # ls -lgG /etc/init.d/b*/*S* lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.proc -> ../boot.proc lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.udev -> ../boot.udev lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S02boot.rootfsck -> ../boot.rootfsck lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S03boot.clock -> ../boot.clock lrwxrwxrwx 1 21 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.device-mapper -> ../boot.device-mapper lrwxrwxrwx 1 19 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.loadmodules -> ../boot.loadmodules lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.localnet -> ../boot.localnet lrwxrwxrwx 1 10 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S07boot.md -> ../boot.md lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S10boot.localfs -> ../boot.localfs lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cleanup -> ../boot.cleanup lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cycle -> ../boot.cycle lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.klog -> ../boot.klog lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.swap -> ../boot.swap lrwxrwxrwx 1 18 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.udev_retry -> ../boot.udev_retry lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.ldconfig -> ../boot.ldconfig lrwxrwxrwx 1 14 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.sysctl -> ../boot.sysctl lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S14boot.ipconfig -> ../boot.ipconfig Do you know why they exist, and why they are named as they are? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 01:43 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Sorry for neglecting to excise the reference to storing anything. My comment was not about process details. I only meant to point out what was responsible for controlling the shutdown process on a system controlled by sysvinit.
I think I begin to understand why so many people jump on the systemd-train.
I'm not on the systemd train. Like many others, I've simply realized resistance became futile once the snowball was too big to stop. The horse left the barn long
If everyone who just gave up, despite having objections, would speak up against this catastrophe-in-the-making, that snowball would get melted quite quickly (say, 24 months). Cowardice facilitates evil.
ago. Until something as big and powerful as RedHat provides something promising to be better than systemd, openSUSE is destined to continue using systemd.
[0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it
Maybe you forgot yourself: os114host:~ # ls -lgG /etc/init.d/b*/*S* lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.proc -> ../boot.proc lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S01boot.udev -> ../boot.udev lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S02boot.rootfsck -> ../boot.rootfsck lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S03boot.clock -> ../boot.clock lrwxrwxrwx 1 21 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.device-mapper -> ../boot.device-mapper lrwxrwxrwx 1 19 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.loadmodules -> ../boot.loadmodules lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S04boot.localnet -> ../boot.localnet lrwxrwxrwx 1 10 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S07boot.md -> ../boot.md lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S10boot.localfs -> ../boot.localfs lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cleanup -> ../boot.cleanup lrwxrwxrwx 1 13 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.cycle -> ../boot.cycle lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.klog -> ../boot.klog lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.swap -> ../boot.swap lrwxrwxrwx 1 18 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S12boot.udev_retry -> ../boot.udev_retry lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.ldconfig -> ../boot.ldconfig lrwxrwxrwx 1 14 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S13boot.sysctl -> ../boot.sysctl lrwxrwxrwx 1 16 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S14boot.ipconfig -> ../boot.ipconfig
Do you know why they exist, and why they are named as they are?
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 01:43 (UTC+0200): [..]
RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]). [..] [0] I'll gladly put the one from oS 12.1 on paste.opensuse.org, if you're unable to find it
Maybe you forgot yourself: os114host:~ # ls -lgG /etc/init.d/b*/*S* [..] lrwxrwxrwx 1 10 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S07boot.md -> ../boot.md lrwxrwxrwx 1 15 Oct 3 2011 /etc/init.d/boot.d/S10boot.localfs -> ../boot.localfs [.] Do you know why they exist, and why they are named as they are?
Yes. But they _DO NOT_ exist in 13.1!
ls -d /etc/init.d/boot.* /etc/init.d/boot.cycle /etc/init.d/boot.dmraid /etc/init.d/boot.md /etc/init.d/boot.d /etc/init.d/boot.local /etc/init.d/boot.udev
*sigh* -dnh -- Too bloated to crash, it can only bounce gently into the limits set by the laws of physics and stop, wobbling slightly. -- unknown -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote on 2014-09-28 04:32 (UTC-0400):
It just needs to to store information so that the machine can BOOT and then mount all mount pointed listed in fstab
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Hello, On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote: RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own.
That's what sysvinit did. On a runlevel change, it just runs the scripts according to the alphabetical sort of the S*/K* symlinks in rc?.d/. No magic involved. -dnh -- "C++ also supports the notion of *friends*: cooperative classes that are permitted to see each other's private parts." -- Grady Booch, "Object Oriented Design with Applications" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-30 17:06, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote: RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own.
That's what sysvinit did. On a runlevel change, it just runs the scripts according to the alphabetical sort of the S*/K* symlinks in rc?.d/. No magic involved.
Yep. A point, though: openSUSE modified system V in a way that it ignored all the symlinks in those "level" directories. It used another method, which I will not explain here; but anybody interested can look it up in the documentation for openSUSE 11.4, for instance, which I believe was the last release to use that method. The change came with parallelization of the starting up of the scripts, years before systemd was heard of. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 17:06, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 01:43, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote: RTF init-scripts. E.g. /etc/init.d/boot.localfs (prior to systemd[0]).
Something has to start the scripts when needed. They don't start on their own.
That's what sysvinit did. On a runlevel change, it just runs the scripts according to the alphabetical sort of the S*/K* symlinks in rc?.d/. No magic involved.
Yep.
A point, though: openSUSE modified system V in a way that it ignored all the symlinks in those "level" directories. It used another method, which I will not explain here; but anybody interested can look it up in the documentation for openSUSE 11.4, for instance, which I believe was the last release to use that method.
The change came with parallelization of the starting up of the scripts, years before systemd was heard of.
Which means that the entire excuse for systemd -- parallelization of start-up... isn't an actual factor. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do. But with 96G of buffer memory, doing a: #!/bin/bash function dropcaches () { echo -n "3"|sudo dd status=none of=/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches } time dropcaches can take well over 30 seconds -- as long as 50... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.
It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
And what exactly do you think is responsible for unmounting at shutdown time?
---- a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.
It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls.
--- Not the same. Sync comes back in 1-2 seconds. the cache flush takes 30-60 seconds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-10-02 15:26, Linda Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:
a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.
It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls.
Not the same.
Sync comes back in 1-2 seconds.
the cache flush takes 30-60 seconds.
Then it is not needed, or else, the filesytem would be corrupted on next boot, and an fsck would detect it. On some filesystem, mount detects and aborts, on others, mount triggers the quick self repair mode. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-10-02 15:26, Linda Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-10-02 02:40, Linda Walsh wrote:
a "umount -ar" works just great! Note, I Do manually flush the kernel buffers before unmounting -- something the old init didn't do.
It did. I can not check the code at this instant, but there were a pair of "sync" calls.
Not the same.
Sync comes back in 1-2 seconds.
the cache flush takes 30-60 seconds.
Then it is not needed, or else, the filesytem would be corrupted on next boot, and an fsck would detect it. On some filesystem, mount detects and aborts, on others, mount triggers the quick self repair mode.
Depends on the filesystem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/09/14 08:34, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?
It calls mount.. but that's not the point..
There is no database, only mount units..in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why? because it has to know in what order to umount them and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available.
With kerberized mounts it doesn't even gat that far because the directory into which the systemd ticket has not been created at the time that the mount needs to be made. . That is like saying that root has to login (with a password!) on all 13.1 AD domain clients.
e
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/09/14 a las #4, Ruben Safir escribió:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 05:14:20PM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
Explain why mount is able to mount files systems without some retarded other database, but systemd is too stupid to just call for mount?
It calls mount.. but that's not the point..
There is no database, only mount units..
And a "mount unit" is what exactly? And we need to have mounts split into TWO files, why, exactly
in the case of fstab the are used only internally be systemd ..why? because it has to know in what order to umount them and interact properly with either system or user provided service units that need certain mount points available, or start after, before, etc they are available.
Wow, that's pretty lame. /a/b/c needs to wait until /a/b is mounted. This isn't exactly a difficult to understand problem that calls for a whole new, obscure and arcane table of mounts written in some god-awful bastardization of XML. Unless of course, you're a Not-Invented-Here-so-it-must-die-die-die obsessed narcissist like Sievert & Poettering are providing perfect examples of being. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/09/14 02:14, Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
No. On the contrary, he's given me an opportunity to plug a bugzilla I've been working around for the past year:) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking. If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk. You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction. If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against. Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ? ............................ regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................
Henne sadly is on vacation, so no one to shoo the trolls back under the bridge currently ;) Ciao, marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/09/14 14:38, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................
Henne sadly is on vacation, so no one to shoo the trolls back under the bridge currently ;)
Ciao, marcus
Somebody should find the 3 Billy Goats Gruff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2014 10:11 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 30/09/14 14:38, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................
Henne sadly is on vacation, so no one to shoo the trolls back under the bridge currently ;)
Ciao, marcus
Somebody should find the 3 Billy Goats Gruff
Henne needs a backup person. :-) And he does a great job, by the way. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-09-30 17:01, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Henne needs a backup person. :-) And he does a great job, by the way.
Absolutely. But apparently it has to be a SUSE employee. Help from the community was not accepted previously. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQqybUACgkQja8UbcUWM1wl5gD+JkhQelWuzoGVLK2pIZ/q3pus sUw14fJ096g5wYwHEI8A/jLhf1w9CcQqL625AMlQfwu2GoyBrNzBSqlxfYD9tqar =6Lbl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
The crazy rants about Systemd from those like "Dirk" who cannot make a sensible sentence and seems to have some sort of ongoing atrophy of the brain, just make the case for Systemd Stronger. So, in a sense, the crazy commentary from the peanut gallery is welcomed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
The crazy rants about Systemd from those like "Dirk" who cannot make a
How about you respond to the complaints, instead of engaging in a campaignn of character assassination for anyone who disagrees with you? Oh, that's right..b.ecause you CAN'T address the criticisms cited in this thread.
sensible sentence and seems to have some sort of ongoing atrophy of the brain, just make the case for Systemd Stronger. So, in a sense,
So if I go to an insane asylum, and find someone who opposes the idea of turning Europe into a dictatorship run by Kim Jong Il, that makes the case for asuch a proposal only stronger. Log off, Net-Kook.
the crazy commentary from the peanut gallery is welcomed.
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On 30/09/14 19:23, Dirk Gently wrote: Europe into a Excellent. Europe. That give me another to add to my list. I'm going to choose Austria this time. Keep 'em coming:) Thanks, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
pong... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................ Henne sadly is on vacation, so no one to shoo the trolls back under the bridge currently ;)
Ciao, marcus Henne can remain on vacation for as long as he wishes; I have embargoed
Marcus Meissner wrote: this thread, along with the trolls. A little sunlight, or some lightning to shoo them away, would be welcome, however. ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 04:28:49PM +0300, ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
How about systemd in the pstree output -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 16:28:49 ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................
regards
winding him up is so easy but i will leave him alone now, i've had enough fun for a while -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 16:28:49 ellanios82 wrote:
- how, so much war-like feeling? : Could it be hormones in foodstuffs ?
............................
regards
winding him up is so easy but i will leave him alone now, i've had enough fun for a while
Translation -- after getting served with the same sort of shit you were dishing out, you decided it wasn't so much fun to play your spew-crap-all-over-the-thread game. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old. How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life. You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
"Dirk", Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder, everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here. On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Sam M. wrote:
"Dirk",
Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to
Did I say to lock him up in a mental hospital and throw away the key? a) yes B) NO
diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder,
Learn the tell-tale tells, and it becomes pretty obvious
everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.
Yes, because Yoou have been appointed by ALL of them to speak for "EVERYBODY" I can tell you right off the bat that Linda Lynn Ruben and David Rankin all disagreee with you. Because each of them values truth over groupthink. So, be a good boy and kindly bend over and blow it out your ass.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote: > > Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this > list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with reality > moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dirk's an angry old troll, the split-personality type who talks big and bad over email but wouldn't dare say a word to someone's face as he does on here. And that makes him just that; a troll. And not only that, but his arguments are childish rants with swear words and I (and I am sure others) don't even read them. Some of us have real work to get done, and aren't living on welfare like Dirk, who has all the time in the world to waste his SSI check on playing troll on openSUSE forums. Can we get rid of this little piece of trash please? Thank you. On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
"Dirk",
Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to
Did I say to lock him up in a mental hospital and throw away the key?
a) yes B) NO
diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder,
Learn the tell-tale tells, and it becomes pretty obvious
everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.
Yes, because Yoou have been appointed by ALL of them to speak for "EVERYBODY"
I can tell you right off the bat that Linda Lynn Ruben and David Rankin all disagreee with you.
Because each of them values truth over groupthink.
So, be a good boy and kindly bend over and blow it out your ass.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote: > > > Sam M. wrote: >> >> >> Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this >> list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with >> reality >> moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. > > > > With all due respect, Sam
liar
> Sit the fuck down > Shut the fuck up > Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
> If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Sam M. wrote:
Dirk's an angry old troll, the split-personality type who talks big and bad over email but wouldn't dare say a word to someone's face as he does on here.
I don't suffer fools lightly. Strange how most people think that being behind a keyboard equates to permission to repeatedly repeat the same lies, over and over, even after they have been factually disproven. In face-to-face discussions, most people don't have to get to the point of expressing outrage and anger because the other party rarely stands in fronnt of you, repeating a dthrice-disproven lie, out of the common-sense fear that saying it again be responded to by a punch to the nose.
And that makes him just that; a troll. And not only
Troll -- someone who can back up his disagreements with Sam by citing facts.
that, but his arguments are childish rants with swear words and I (and
Do you have a better way of expressing utter contempt for liars, short of beating their smug little smirks into a toothless, bloody pulp?
I am sure others) don't even read them. Some of us have real work to get done, and aren't living on welfare like Dirk, who has all the time in the world to waste his SSI check on playing troll on openSUSE forums. Can we get rid of this little piece of trash please? Thank
You don't like how you're treated here when you repeatedly regurgitate lies?? Well, that's too damned bad, cupcake. Nobody cares if you're a special little snowflake or not. Now fuck off. We dont need liars like you clouding up the discussion.
you.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
"Dirk",
Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to
Did I say to lock him up in a mental hospital and throw away the key?
a) yes B) NO
diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder,
Learn the tell-tale tells, and it becomes pretty obvious
everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.
Yes, because Yoou have been appointed by ALL of them to speak for "EVERYBODY"
I can tell you right off the bat that Linda Lynn Ruben and David Rankin all disagreee with you.
Because each of them values truth over groupthink.
So, be a good boy and kindly bend over and blow it out your ass.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote: > > > On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote: >> >> >> Sam M. wrote: >>> >>> >>> Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this >>> list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with >>> reality >>> moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. >> >> >> >> With all due respect, Sam > > > > liar > >> Sit the fuck down >> Shut the fuck up >> Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking. > > > > you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
>> If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole. > > > > oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
> You should really keep in mind this quote :- > "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to > remove > all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 08:18:13 Sam M. wrote:
"Dirk",
Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder, everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.
it makes him feel superior. one day when he matures, he'll look back on this time of his life and cringe
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote: > Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this > list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with > reality > moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care.
With all due respect, Sam
liar
Sit the fuck down Shut the fuck up Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Tuesday 30 Sep 2014 08:18:13 Sam M. wrote:
"Dirk",
Somebody (you) who should be locked up in a mental hospital and have the key thrown away is really not one to point the finger at others to diagnose them over the internet. Honestly, from your Systemd rants to now diagnosing people who you think have a personality disorder, everything thus far that has come out of your brain is sheer stupidity, and I am sure everyone agrees you should be perma-banned from here.
it makes him feel superior. one day when he matures, he'll look back on this time of his life and cringe
I'm not the one exhibiting signs of Borderline Personality Disorder. You are. Figure it out, asshole.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 17:21:40 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 20:48:49 Dirk Gently wrote: > Sam M. wrote: >> Dirk you should probably take your Seroquel before writing to this >> list; you not only come across as a complete out of touch with >> reality >> moron but as somebody who's in great need of psychiatric care. > > With all due respect, Sam
liar
> Sit the fuck down > Shut the fuck up > Be fucking quiet and listen when the adults are talking.
you implying you are an adult???
Compared to you and your childish blatherings, yes... yes, indeed.
> If you can't do that, then drop dead, asshole.
oh dear, kids childish playground trash talk.
No. It's a sincere instruction.
If you can't meet the first set of conditions, then follow the first set of instructions..if you can't do that, then I sincerely desire that you kill yourself.
You should really keep in mind this quote :- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
So says the immature one who posts meaningless blather in a childish attempt to distract from the fact that the arguments for SystemD don't hold waer, and the arguments against SystemD can't be defended against.
Now, a I stated previously... adults talking, so you, child, sit the fuck down adn shut the fuck up.
aaawww.. have you wet your pants again?
See.. Another childish, bullying response from someone whose emotional development is stuck at the age of a 2-year old.
How about you go back to doing drugs and abusing your girlfriend, getting your venereal disease problems sorted out, and whatever other fucked up shit is part of your Borderline Personality Disordered life.
You're not the first BPD asshole I've had to deal with in my life -- and recognizing you is easy...you all behave the same way when there's a disagreement.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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Ruben Safir wrote:
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 04:59:31PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 04:05 PM, michael norman wrote:
Goebbels.
Among quite a few other from about that time. Yes, it was a time of ranting mad-men who held great political power, the world over.
OT but the technique still works.
Sad but true. Despite better informed and more sceptical media, despite the Internet and and despite debunkers, there are still, at all levels of society, throughout the world, those espousing nonsense and those who would rather believe than than approach things rationally.
I recall in the 1960/70s there was Eric von Daniken and the cloud of belief in "Ancient Spacemen" to explain away the pyramids and other great historic works. How insulting this was to our ancestors. But while it's easy to speculate, disproving such takes work, and that work *has* been done. Palaeolithic re-enactors have raised menhirs and archaeology have uncovered the living quarters and quartermasters records of the workers who built the pyramids. It takes no budget to write unfounded fiction, but a lot of time, effort and hence budget to do serious, documented, methodical archaeological work.
Really, that is quite a rant having zero to do with any topic.
But just as with systemd, there are those who refuse to face evidence No, that is not a rational resposonse. The problems with systemd are deep and multiple and have beeen discusseded and can be rehashed. But it is not a "fiction" that systemd has absorbed a large number of segments of the gnu system and has broken compatability with said systems as well.
The fiction is that there is a need to replace the init system at all, and it can take all day and all night to go through the rationality for even needed to replace it at all, let alone allow monolithic behemoth take over everything from getty processes, login programs, serial port emulators, logging systems, fs system mounting, device recognition and kernel module loading, X11 startup and logging, initiation of databases, webserver, programming environemts including cores...and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. It is a damn nightmare, really. Then on top of that, it is evidently written like such pure crap that Linus had to run its developers off the kernal mailing list.
Its not a refusal to face 'evidence'. It is being dead set against ONE PROGRAM being resonsible for so many different aspects of the systems operation, and making the system so damn hard to understand, alter and to use.
I couldn't give a damn if this systemd was laced with pure gold and blessed by Barrack Obama himself. I don't WANT this thing running my computer, which is what it does and which is a LONG WAY from an innovation or a replacement for sysVinit. Taking the vast majority of system controls and cludging them all together as a single monolithic program is not "New" or "innovative". It just SUCKS and it is why I dumped other OSs previously.
And on top of all of that, ever since systemd was introduced, the performance of my laptop dropped like a rock, and has never recovered. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 .html> That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me
Not only that!
$ apropos systemd| wc -l 130
aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
had before systemd and have nothing to do with systemd and everything to do with Xorg, the drivers and kernel modules. I expect to have similar problems whenever I change my graphics hardware.
Again, what happens if you have a boot-up problem BEFORE THE GUI COMES UP?
Attributing these problems to systemd is just part of the Big Lie that people such as aaron-as-dirk engage in.
Nice straw man you've got there. Now try addressing my actual argument.
If you look to history and see example of major players who practised the Big Lie technique of persuading people, you'll realise that such people do not have your best interests at heart, nor, if history is to be a judge, the best interests of society at large. Hopefully you will more sensitive to the Big Lie techniques that masses have been in the past and not be persuaded.
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On 28/09/14 02:01, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I don't think the same about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294
.html> That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me
Not only that!
$ apropos systemd| wc -l 130
aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
OK. I'll take my opportunity whilst it lasts. It does fail e.g. /run/user/0 is not created for the Kerberos root cache so nothing is mounted from AD. The problem is, no one at either SUSE nor openSUSE understand the problem. The bugs never get fixed (or read even) because no one either at SUSE nor openSUSE has the resources or understanding to fix them. This is a pure systemd error which has knocked out working with SLES or openSUSE after systemd in a domain completely. The only solution is a workaround. 844198 has been open for almost a year. No one has addressed the issue. And let's face it, if Fedora have problems with the same issue, what chance do we stand? L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
В Sun, 28 Sep 2014 13:21:54 +0200 lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> пишет:
On 28/09/14 02:01, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote: > I don't think the same > about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this: > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 > > .html> That's excellent.
Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist.
The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me
Not only that!
$ apropos systemd| wc -l 130
aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
OK. I'll take my opportunity whilst it lasts.
It does fail e.g. /run/user/0 is not created for the Kerberos root cache so nothing is mounted from AD. The problem is, no one at either SUSE nor openSUSE understand the problem. The bugs never get fixed (or read even)
There were at least two suggestions how to workaround it; and you yourself have confirmed that at least one of them works. So it is not that a) nobody reads them and b) it is something that is broken beyond repair. The real underlying problem is that having filesystem as common cache for unrelated process is fundamentally incompatible with idea of name spaces. The only fault of systemd here is that it makes use of name spaces more streamlined. But there is no way to ensure that /tmp/krb5cc created by one process will be accessible by another process.
because no one either at SUSE nor openSUSE has the resources or understanding to fix them. This is a pure systemd error which has knocked out working with SLES or openSUSE after systemd in a domain completely. The only solution is a workaround. 844198 has been open for almost a year. No one has addressed the issue.
<quote> Major changes in 1.12 (2013-12-10) Add collection support to the KEYRING credential cache type on Linux, and add support for persistent user keyrings and larger credentials on systems which support them. </quote> Factory (13.2) has 1.12.2. Did you look whether problem still exists there? If yes, did you test whether using kernel keyring solves it?
And let's face it, if Fedora have problems with the same issue, what chance do we stand? L x
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Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
В Sun, 28 Sep 2014 13:21:54 +0200 lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> пишет:
On 28/09/14 02:01, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/25/2014 11:49 AM, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 15:43:55 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote: > On 09/24/2014 02:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote: >> I don't think the same >> about systemd so much any more after reading a few days ago this: >> >> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294 >> >> .html> > That's excellent. > > Those 17 points sum up 'the UNIX way' very well, much better than the > rants we've seen here, which have mostly been recidivist. > > The claims that systemd is undocumented and similar are quite > unfounded.
If it's not in the man pages, it's not documented.
man systemd - works for me
Not only that!
$ apropos systemd| wc -l 130
aaron-as-dirk's complaint about getting the GUI to work is frivolous. The post-systemd problems I've had with Xorg have been the same ones I
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
OK. I'll take my opportunity whilst it lasts.
It does fail e.g. /run/user/0 is not created for the Kerberos root cache so nothing is mounted from AD. The problem is, no one at either SUSE nor openSUSE understand the problem. The bugs never get fixed (or read even)
There were at least two suggestions how to workaround it; and you yourself have confirmed that at least one of them works. So it is not that a) nobody reads them and b) it is something that is broken beyond repair.
The real underlying problem is that having filesystem as common cache for unrelated process is fundamentally incompatible with idea of name spaces. The only fault of systemd here is that it makes use of name spaces more streamlined. But there is no way to ensure that /tmp/krb5cc created by one process will be accessible by another process.
Or in OTHER WORDS, SystemD is using a model which is fundamentally incompatible with the entire rest of Linux. Hmmmm... So... we should change EVERYTHING because Poettering and Sievert want Microsoft Linux ???? What's next... a fucking slow-ass registry, too?
because no one either at SUSE nor openSUSE has the resources or understanding to fix them. This is a pure systemd error which has knocked out working with SLES or openSUSE after systemd in a domain completely. The only solution is a workaround. 844198 has been open for almost a year. No one has addressed the issue.
<quote> Major changes in 1.12 (2013-12-10)
Add collection support to the KEYRING credential cache type on Linux, and add support for persistent user keyrings and larger credentials on systems which support them. </quote>
Factory (13.2) has 1.12.2. Did you look whether problem still exists there? If yes, did you test whether using kernel keyring solves it?
And let's face it, if Fedora have problems with the same issue, what chance do we stand? L x
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On 09/28/2014 12:30 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Or in OTHER WORDS, SystemD is using a model which is fundamentally incompatible with the entire rest of Linux.
Ah, now you're talking! I don't know what this 'SystemD' is, but its not the systemd I'm running on my Linux boxes and as P&S point out, that's not systemd. <quote src="http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/"> Spelling Yes, it is written systemd, not system D or System D, or even SystemD. And it isn't system d either. Why? Because it's a system daemon, and under Unix/Linux those are in lower case, and get suffixed with a lower case d. And since systemd manages the system, it's called systemd. It's that simple. But then again, if all that appears too simple to you, call it (but never spell it!) System Five Hundred since D is the roman numeral for 500 (this also clarifies the relation to System V, right?). The only situation where we find it OK to use an uppercase letter in the name (but don't like it either) is if you start a sentence with systemd. </quote> Such a fundamental gaff! Its indicative of the lack of basic research into your case, and the lack of facts, so easily contradicted by that series of articles, that makes all your assertions a Big Lie. The fact that you have to keep repeating them with threats of violence is just so characteristic of the political leaders who use the Big Lie technique to disrupt the world nearly a century ago. The best that can be said for it is that it worked and worked well, give a gullible, out of work population and a cowed, easily manipulated media. We're a bit more sophisticated today; we need a hefty dose of Religious Fervour along with the Big lie to get us stirred up. :-( -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references. Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well. Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD". Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references.
Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well.
Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD".
Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun.
The operation of init is self-evident. I never needed to read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation before having a clue how it worked... all I needed to do was read a couple paragraphs on the inittab manpage, and a couple of paragraphs on the init manpage. With that small bit of knowledge, I can configure any any init-style system (SysVInit, BSD's init, etc) with a minimum amount of fuss. Trying to configure a systemd system to do something that Sievert & Poeetering didn't anticipate, or worse yet, correct something they've fucked up is, frankly, WORSE than getting four impacted wisdom teeth removed -- and I know, because I've experienced it. An earlier commenter was right... SystemD isn't just a replacement for init, but a powergrab. If it WERE just a replacement for init, then it would continue to just call the scripts in /etc/init.d to carry out their various functions, instead of completely replacing their functionality. And how is it that when I run a script in /etc/init.d, I get some message, "redirecting to systemctl to start ... " linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # ./cron start redirecting to systemctl start .service Starting CRON daemon done linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep systemctl ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep system ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # Hmmm, the cron start/stop script contains NO references to systemctl, not even in a comment, so I have a question -- How in the ***FUCK*** is this getting redirected to a systemctl command? Have these assholes now hacked bash to intercept any execution of a script in /etc/init.d This is absolute bullshit, because now we see something else that has been "fixed" by Poettering in the most self-serving of ways --- rather than edit the /etc/init.d scripts to look for systemctl, and if found, run the systemctl command, it's quite obvious that bash has been changed to operating e a completely unexpected and undocumented manner, all for the purpose of grabbing more power. Fuck Sievert & Poettering, and fuck anybody who supports this fucking bullshit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
В Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 -0400 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> пишет:
linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # ./cron start redirecting to systemctl start .service Starting CRON daemon done linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep systemctl ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep system ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d #
Hmmm, the cron start/stop script contains NO references to systemctl, not even in a comment, so I have a question --
How in the ***FUCK*** is this getting redirected to a systemctl command?
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-29 04:56, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
В Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 -0400 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> пишет:
linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # ./cron start redirecting to systemctl start .service Starting CRON daemon done linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep systemctl ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep system ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d #
Hmmm, the cron start/stop script contains NO references to systemctl, not even in a comment, so I have a question --
How in the ***FUCK*** is this getting redirected to a systemctl command?
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous!
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/29/2014 06:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous!
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
Indeed, but Carlos is right when he says he's not a script junkie. Its not the script that's starting the cron daemon. In fact the cron daemon could be started without the script and without making use of systemctl. This item demonstrates quite nicely what a con-job the idea of wonderful sysvinit scripts are. The shell and shell script has noting to do with starting cron any more than a hand typed command line or a systemd unit. Oh joy Oh wonder Oh ROTHFLMAO let seem how man use-cases are like that? autofs cups dovecot fetchmail gpm mcelog nfs ntp pcscd powerd proftpd rsyncd spamd spampd sshd xdm ypbind Oh Wonderful! OBTW: there's no 'intercepted' about it. Its the way they were designed to start with. Before systemd came along. The idea that sysvinit is about shell scripts is a fundamentally flawed notion. Its just about entry levels and run levels. If it wasn't that systemd maintained backwards comparability with being able to do what's expected when a sysadmin types "init 3", "init 6", or "init s" at the prompt there would be no need to keep these things around. It never was the scripts that were doing the work. They were just a means to an end. Part of the reason systemd is so large is dealing with this kind of backward compatibility. If you really were to strip out all the backward compatibility like the above the code would be a lot smaller and lot cleaner. There would be no need to recognise special cases and have all those run-level comparability hooks. A lot of the basis for criticism of systemd would go away because the code on which it based would not be there. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 06:33 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous!
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
Indeed, but Carlos is right when he says he's not a script junkie. Its not the script that's starting the cron daemon. In fact the cron daemon could be started without the script and without making use of systemctl.
Yes, I know that. That's not the point. \The point is... why is starting cron being hijacked into systemctl?
This item demonstrates quite nicely what a con-job the idea of wonderful sysvinit scripts are. The shell and shell script has noting to do with starting cron any more than a hand typed command line or a systemd unit.
Oh joy Oh wonder Oh ROTHFLMAO
let seem how man use-cases are like that?
autofs cups dovecot fetchmail gpm mcelog nfs ntp pcscd powerd proftpd rsyncd spamd spampd sshd xdm ypbind
Oh Wonderful!
OBTW: there's no 'intercepted' about it. Its the way they were designed to start with. Before systemd came along. The idea that sysvinit is about shell scripts is a fundamentally flawed notion. Its just about entry levels and run levels.
So fundamentally flawed that it worked perfectly for 40 years.... That's like saying that round tires are fundamentally flawed because there's no guarantee that they can't hang from a ceiling.
If it wasn't that systemd maintained backwards comparability with being able to do what's expected when a sysadmin types "init 3", "init 6", or "init s" at the prompt there would be no need to keep these things around. It never was the scripts that were doing the work. They were just a means to an end.
Actually, yes, the scripts DO do the work... they are there to make sure that deamons are started and stoped in a consistent manner... the manner (flags & arguments) listed in the script, as debugged by the admin (or software distgributor), rather than in whatever manner the admin-at-the-moment thinks it should be started ro stopped.
Part of the reason systemd is so large is dealing with this kind of backward compatibility. If you really were to strip out all the backward compatibility like the above the code would be a lot smaller and lot cleaner. There would be no need to recognise special cases and have all those run-level comparability hooks. A lot of the basis for criticism of systemd would go away because the code on which it based would not be there.
It would also be a hell of a lot smaller if it wasn't also being a cron deamon, an http server, a socket listener, etc. and whatever deamons Sievert & Poettering have decided must be added to the ever growing list of deamons that they've hijacked and hard-coded into systemd. Q?uit justifying this monolithic pile of crap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/29/2014 07:30 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
It would also be a hell of a lot smaller if it wasn't also being a cron deamon, an http server, a socket listener, etc. and whatever deamons Sievert & Poettering have decided must be added to the ever growing list of deamons that they've hijacked and hard-coded into systemd.
Ah. Big Lie again. Its none of those The cron daemon is /usr/sbin/cron The http server is Apache *MANY* things listen on sockets, such as the inet daemon Run lsof -i -U to get a list of some of them All this is clearly documented. Systemd no more does all these things that are being attributed to it than the shell does. The whole point of unit files are to tell systemd what external programs to fork off and execl. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 07:30 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
It would also be a hell of a lot smaller if it wasn't also being a cron deamon, an http server, a socket listener, etc. and whatever deamons Sievert & Poettering have decided must be added to the ever growing list of deamons that they've hijacked and hard-coded into systemd.
Ah. Big Lie again. Its none of those
The cron daemon is /usr/sbin/cron
The http server is Apache
*MANY* things listen on sockets, such as the inet daemon Run lsof -i -U to get a list of some of them
All this is clearly documented.
Systemd no more does all these things that are being attributed to it than the shell does. The whole point of unit files are to tell systemd what external programs to fork off and execl.
Then why not just use those deamon's existing config files/ The fact that the old deamon's config files are being supplanted is proof that there's more going on than what you claim. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ah. Big Lie again. Its none of those
Oh Jolly!! http://www.mrbrklyn.com/images/joy.mp3
The cron daemon is /usr/sbin/cron
The http server is Apache
*MANY* things listen on sockets, such as the inet daemon Run lsof -i -U to get a list of some of them
All this is clearly documented.
Systemd no more does all these things that are being attributed to it than the shell does. The whole point of unit files are to tell systemd what external programs to fork off and execl.
Then why not just use those deamon's existing config files/
The fact that the old deamon's config files are being supplanted is proof that there's more going on than what you claim. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 06:33:31PM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous!
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
It is not running the script. Somehow, and don't ask me how and I couldn't care less because no part of that can be good, the sh shell script has been intercepted and was parsed and intpreted by systemd, and whatever it figured out it wanted, that is what it is going to do. So if you go and alter the script or simplify it, as I tend to do, or do something that is not with the program, then systemd will then piss all over your leg. Ruben -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 06:33:31PM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
I was intrigued enough to have a look. Then I found out and laughed :-) Took me some time, though. Maybe five minutes in all. I'm not a script junkie, after all :-)
Indeed, the script seems superfluous!
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
It is not running the script. Somehow, and don't ask me how and I couldn't care less because no part of that can be good, the sh shell script has been intercepted and was parsed and intpreted by systemd, and whatever it figured out it wanted, that is what it is going to do. So if you go and alter the script or simplify it, as I tend to do, or do something that is not with the program, then systemd will then piss all over your leg.
Yep. That's EXACTLY what I have noticed for the last year and a half. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30.09.2014 00:33, Dirk Gently wrote:
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
Actually, from your more fact oriented and less emotional posts in the past I would have thought that you'd have figured that out by yourself by now. On the other hand, as it might be of interest for more people, here is how: The SysVInit scripts are being "intercepted" by /etc/rc.status. This script has been extended to first check if systemd is installed, and if the script qualifies for being handled by systemd directly. If yes, the process is switching to systemctl: exec /bin/systemctl ${SYSTEMCTL_OPTIONS} $1 "${_rc_base}" While this is in fact not the prettiest solution, and makes it a little harder to find out how this works. On the other hand, as I see it, this mechanism exists only for backward compatibility reasons, and actually provides an elegant way to allow the software packager to provide both SysVInit scripts and systemd units, which can be used with either init daemon without change (so actually, there's no need to touch existing and working SysVInit scripts at all). However, if systemd is being used as the init daemon, systemd will be used to start the service. /Andreas -- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-09-30 12:56, Andreas Mahel wrote:
The SysVInit scripts are being "intercepted" by /etc/rc.status.
Let us clarify that this file has existed for many years, maybe decades. It was used with initd previously, and it is not part of the systemd package, but of aaa_base. Ie, it is an openSUSE thing. The changelog is full of suse.com/de addresses, not upstream.
This script has been extended to first check if systemd is installed, and if the script qualifies for being handled by systemd directly. If yes, the process is switching to systemctl: exec /bin/systemctl ${SYSTEMCTL_OPTIONS} $1 "${_rc_base}"
So it is not that systemd is intercepting the init scripts, but that the functionality of a file that is included by initd scripts since ever, has been extended, and as you say, if it finds systemd installed it then tells it to take over - as it must, obviously, at least as long as the system uses system as PID 1. So, no conspiration ;-)
While this is in fact not the prettiest solution, and makes it a little harder to find out how this works. On the other hand, as I see it, this mechanism exists only for backward compatibility reasons, and actually provides an elegant way to allow the software packager to provide both SysVInit scripts and systemd units, which can be used with either init daemon without change (so actually, there's no need to touch existing and working SysVInit scripts at all). However, if systemd is being used as the init daemon, systemd will be used to start the service.
Yep. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQqvvIACgkQja8UbcUWM1xXZQD+MbX2Cbjoy/57Z4ATqIFNP8N5 NNfm+eA8+FeRuQD+mnAA/0gmvDW2wasyRky/zG7zdjQfNi055bGkAL0iGWtWKg6o =TfAg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
While this is in fact not the prettiest solution, and makes it a little harder to find out how this works. On the other hand, as I see it, this mechanism exists only for backward compatibility reasons, and actually provides an elegant way to allow the software packager to provide both SysVInit scripts and systemd units, which can be used with either init daemon without change (so actually, there's no need to touch existing and working SysVInit scripts at all). However, if systemd is being used as the init daemon, systemd will be used to start the service.
Yep.
there was a time that init did just fine by looking up the names of the links under /etc/rc.d/rc.x and started them in order and killed them in order. That would be a good method to go back to. Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-30 18:03, Ruben Safir wrote:
there was a time that init did just fine by looking up the names of the links under /etc/rc.d/rc.x
and started them in order and killed them in order.
Not in openSUSE since long before systemd.
That would be a good method to go back to.
You can use SuSE 7.3 if you wish... I don't. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 18:03, Ruben Safir wrote:
there was a time that init did just fine by looking up the names of the links under /etc/rc.d/rc.x
and started them in order and killed them in order.
Not in openSUSE since long before systemd.
Strange.. it always worked for me before systemd.
That would be a good method to go back to.
You can use SuSE 7.3 if you wish... I don't.
Systemd hasn't been in existance that long. SysVInit works exactly as Ruben describes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30.09.2014 16:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, no conspiration ;-) Indeed, no conspiration at all, only a distribution workaround in order to a) consistently use systemd as service control instance, while b) still providing the "old" service and rc* scripts as a convenience for the admin and c) not requiring to modify the service scripts to make them systemd "compliant"
And, as you pointed out, a machine running systemd as PID 1 should better default to start and stop services using systemd, no matter which entry point is used. /Andreas -- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 05:41:51PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
On 30.09.2014 16:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, no conspiration ;-) Indeed, no conspiration at all, only a distribution workaround in order to a) consistently use systemd as service control instance, while b) still providing the "old" service and rc* scripts as a convenience for the admin and
This is not a favor. This is what admins are supposed to do, and what operating systems are supposed to comply with. They take the orders of admoins and correctly execute them. That is what we cal a "working Computer"
c) not requiring to modify the service scripts to make them systemd "compliant"
And, as you pointed out, a machine running systemd as PID 1 should better default to start and stop services using systemd, no matter which entry point is used.
/Andreas -- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56:31PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
On 30.09.2014 00:33, Dirk Gently wrote:
So. how is the script getting interecepted and replaced with a systemctl command, when there is NO mention of systemctl anywhere in the cron start/stop script?
Actually, from your more fact oriented and less emotional posts in the past I would have thought that you'd have figured that out by yourself by now. On the other hand, as it might be of interest for more people, here is how:
The SysVInit scripts are being "intercepted" by /etc/rc.status. This script has been extended to first check if systemd is installed, and if the script qualifies for being handled by systemd directly. If yes, the process is switching to systemctl: exec /bin/systemctl ${SYSTEMCTL_OPTIONS} $1 "${_rc_base}"
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
While this is in fact not the prettiest solution, and makes it a little harder to find out how this works. On the other hand, as I see it, this mechanism exists only for backward compatibility reasons,
that is right. The ultimate goal is to have everything swallowed up.
and actually provides an elegant way to allow the software packager to provide both SysVInit scripts and systemd units, which can be used with either init daemon without change (so actually, there's no need to touch existing and working SysVInit scripts at all). However, if systemd is being used as the init daemon, systemd will be used to start the service.
I do apreciate the clarification.
/Andreas
-- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-30 17:57, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56:31PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
The SysVInit scripts are being "intercepted" by /etc/rc.status. This script has been extended to first check if systemd is installed, and if the script qualifies for being handled by systemd directly. If yes, the process is switching to systemctl: exec /bin/systemctl ${SYSTEMCTL_OPTIONS} $1 "${_rc_base}"
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
No, it does not. If there are both a script and a unit, the unit takes precedence, obviously. If there is only a script, it is used, obviously too. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 06:16:38PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 17:57, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56:31PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
The SysVInit scripts are being "intercepted" by /etc/rc.status. This script has been extended to first check if systemd is installed, and if the script qualifies for being handled by systemd directly. If yes, the process is switching to systemctl: exec /bin/systemctl ${SYSTEMCTL_OPTIONS} $1 "${_rc_base}"
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
No, it does not.
If there are both a script and a unit, the unit takes precedence, obviously. If there is only a script, it is used, obviously too.
No - it is NOT used. I have of scripts that sit in /etc/rc.d/ and are not used, looked at or parsed by systemd and it too me quite a while to figure out why. I had no idea that this hostile takeover was happening. I thought it was just gnome that would try to do insane stuff like this. Ruben
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30.09.2014 17:57, Ruben Safir wrote:
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
Actually, it doesn't really "translate" the scripts into units. It just looks up the right (existing) unit, and then uses systemd to start the service using the information from that unit, instead of having a shell execute the lines of the script. In fact, both the init.d script and the unit for a service (for example cron, as mentioned by Dirk), are provided by the distribution packagers in order to provide a means to start and stop (etc.) the service (and not by "systemd" or "SysVInit"). For the distribution, this is meant to happen using the init system installed on the computer. So if the distribution is running under systemd, redirecting the rc* scripts to use systemd mechanics is only consistent and to be expected. One more word to units: I've got the impression that you, like some other people on this list, view units like some reimplementation of the service by systemd, which would make systemd a big, monolithic something. However, after looking at some of these units, I see that they are merely configuration files providing the information needed to start,stop, etc. the service. Here you can find the executable that will be run (i. e. /usr/bin/cron), command line parameters, PID file location, etc. This information is used to run a general service control flow, whose logic probably very much resembles what you also find in the init.d scripts (if you compare them, you'll find that most of them are very similar, at least the service control scripts). On top, the unit config file provides dependency information to allow parallel start of independent services. All in all it's mainly "only" a different way to start/stop the same service executables. /Andreas -- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 05:41:32PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
On 30.09.2014 17:57, Ruben Safir wrote:
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
Actually, it doesn't really "translate" the scripts into units. It just looks up the right (existing) unit, and then uses systemd to start the service using the information from that unit, instead of having a shell execute the lines of the script.
That is what we said and what they are is not MY SCRIPTS. And directly as a result of systemd et al making up all these units, is that it hoised my dhcpcd and named this week, costing me dozens of hours of work, and then it switched all the networking to IP6 whether I liked it or not. And there is no to quickly fix this other than starting a bunch of services by HAND. so much for an imroved system that I have to start the programs by HAND.
In fact, both the init.d script and the unit for a service (for example cron, as mentioned by Dirk), are provided by the distribution packagers in order to provide a means to start and stop (etc.) the service (and not by "systemd" or "SysVInit"). For the distribution, this is meant to happen using the init system installed on the computer. So if the distribution is running under systemd, redirecting the rc* scripts to use systemd mechanics is only consistent and to be expected.
One more word to units: I've got the impression that you, like some other people on this list, view units like some reimplementation of the service by systemd, which would make systemd a big, monolithic something. However, after looking at some of these units, I see that they are merely configuration files providing the information needed to start,stop, etc. the service. Here you can find the executable that will be run (i. e. /usr/bin/cron), command line parameters, PID file location, etc. This information is used to run a general service control flow, whose logic probably very much resembles what you also find in the init.d scripts (if you compare them, you'll find that most of them are very similar, at least the service control scripts). On top, the unit config file provides dependency information to allow parallel start of independent services.
All in all it's mainly "only" a different way to start/stop the same service executables.
Your talking backwards on yourself. You just wrote a HUGE paragraph to say that systemd is a huge reimplementation that doesn't use init scripts and reimpliments everything as a monolithic giganaut. You didn't shed any light on this this, but just reiterated what we've been say all along. Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 1 Oct 2014 12:54:41 -0400 Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
You didn't shed any light on this this, but just reiterated what we've been say all along. I'm not so sure.
He said that *if* you put in /etc/rc.d a script named - say - Ruben and there is no Ruben unit it will be executed (if activated or run via "service"). If you put a script that does have a unit with a corresponding name (say: named or dhcpd) it will be ignored if systemd is running as pid 1. I don't like that (hence I'm migrating all my machines), but I have to admit that at least now what it is expected to happen is clear. luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-10-01 19:47, Luciano Mannucci wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2014 12:54:41 -0400 Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
You didn't shed any light on this this, but just reiterated what we've been say all along. I'm not so sure.
He said that *if* you put in /etc/rc.d a script named - say - Ruben and there is no Ruben unit it will be executed (if activated or run via "service"). If you put a script that does have a unit with a corresponding name (say: named or dhcpd) it will be ignored if systemd is running as pid 1.
Absolutely.
I don't like that (hence I'm migrating all my machines), but I have to admit that at least now what it is expected to happen is clear.
Of course, use what you like best and works for you :-) -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 05:41:32PM +0200, Andreas Mahel wrote:
On 30.09.2014 17:57, Ruben Safir wrote:
which is the point I was making all along. It doesn't use the damn scripts. It translates them as 'units'
Actually, it doesn't really "translate" the scripts into units. It just looks up the right (existing) unit, and then uses systemd to start the service using the information from that unit, instead of having a shell execute the lines of the script.
That is what we said and what they are is not MY SCRIPTS. And directly as a result of systemd et al making up all these units, is that it hoised my dhcpcd and named this week, costing me dozens of hours of work, and then it switched all the networking to IP6 whether I liked it or not. And there is no to quickly fix this other than starting a bunch of services by HAND.
so much for an imroved system that I have to start the programs by HAND.
But! But! But! It's worth wasting yours and everyone else's time, because 200-page manifesto! SysVInit evi. Evil, Evil, EVIL!!!! Yours truly, Herr Sievert & Herr Poettering Microsoft "Embrace & Extend" Division. Criminally Insane Detentions Building 1 Microsoft Way Redmond, Washington.
In fact, both the init.d script and the unit for a service (for example cron, as mentioned by Dirk), are provided by the distribution packagers in order to provide a means to start and stop (etc.) the service (and not by "systemd" or "SysVInit"). For the distribution, this is meant to happen using the init system installed on the computer. So if the distribution is running under systemd, redirecting the rc* scripts to use systemd mechanics is only consistent and to be expected.
One more word to units: I've got the impression that you, like some other people on this list, view units like some reimplementation of the service by systemd, which would make systemd a big, monolithic something. However, after looking at some of these units, I see that they are merely configuration files providing the information needed to start,stop, etc. the service. Here you can find the executable that will be run (i. e. /usr/bin/cron), command line parameters, PID file location, etc. This information is used to run a general service control flow, whose logic probably very much resembles what you also find in the init.d scripts (if you compare them, you'll find that most of them are very similar, at least the service control scripts). On top, the unit config file provides dependency information to allow parallel start of independent services.
All in all it's mainly "only" a different way to start/stop the same service executables.
Your talking backwards on yourself. You just wrote a HUGE paragraph to say that systemd is a huge reimplementation that doesn't use init scripts and reimpliments everything as a monolithic giganaut.
You didn't shed any light on this this, but just reiterated what we've been say all along.
Ruben
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On 10/01/2014 11:41 AM, Andreas Mahel wrote:
One more word to units: I've got the impression that you, like some other people on this list, view units like some reimplementation of the service by systemd, which would make systemd a big, monolithic something. However, after looking at some of these units, I see that they are merely configuration files providing the information needed to start,stop, etc. the service. Here you can find the executable that will be run (i. e. /usr/bin/cron), command line parameters, PID file location, etc. This information is used to run a general service control flow, whose logic probably very much resembles what you also find in the init.d scripts (if you compare them, you'll find that most of them are very similar, at least the service control scripts). On top, the unit config file provides dependency information to allow parallel start of independent services.
All in all it's mainly "only" a different way to start/stop the same service executables.
An analogy here is the old favourite Xinetd. It uses similar "unit" files for the services it dispatches and each one has the name of the executable that applies. As for the "only", the real fundamental difference between sysvinit and systemd is simply this: Sysvinit is procedural whereas systemd is declarative[1]. There are many examples of declarative mode constructs in the IT world. Sometimes its termed "table driven'. Sometimes the 'units' are in a database .... that is a SQL-like database :-) I suppose any file system _could_ be called a 'database' :-) Sometimes the tables are individual files as with systemd, sometimes bracketed stanzas as is common with AIX. Sometimes they are single lines in a file. You might compare the 'single line' of the user account in /etc/passwd with the database entry in a LDAP database used by a RAS or RADIUS server. [1] One might conjecture that people brought up solely on proecedural languages might have a systemic shock when faced with declarative ones. Perhaps this sheer alien-ness accounts for the antimpathy by some towards systemd. -- Tortoise: 'How many talking tortoises have you met?' Brutha: 'I don't know.' Tortoise: 'What d'you mean, you don't know?' Brutha: 'Well, they might all talk. They just might not say anything when I'm there.' -- "Small Gods", Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 10/01/2014 11:41 AM, Andreas Mahel wrote:
One more word to units: I've got the impression that you, like some other people on this list, view units like some reimplementation of the service by systemd, which would make systemd a big, monolithic something. However, after looking at some of these units, I see that they are merely configuration files providing the information needed to start,stop, etc. the service. Here you can find the executable that will be run (i. e. /usr/bin/cron), command line parameters, PID file location, etc. This information is used to run a general service control flow, whose logic probably very much resembles what you also find in the init.d scripts (if you compare them, you'll find that most of them are very similar, at least the service control scripts). On top, the unit config file provides dependency information to allow parallel start of independent services.
All in all it's mainly "only" a different way to start/stop the same service executables.
An analogy here is the old favourite Xinetd. It uses similar "unit" files for the services it dispatches and each one has the name of the executable that applies.
And xinitd has long been regarded as a graceless way to solve the problem, but tolerated because it's small and doesn't get in the way of things. That is NOT grounds to grow xinetd into THE init system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
That is NOT grounds to grow xinetd into THE init system.
Actually, this is exactly the parallel. xinit has been slowing mothballed because of the inherent security problem with the super server dameon, and systemd is all but the same thing now, but even worse. They people who did this have no idea wwhat kind of security nightmare they have created for the long haul. I would like to address a point that Carlos made as to the problems that developers were having working on release deadlines with the initrd system. The ***truth is**** that time being taken was essentail, important and it was a good thing. We are talking about the central core of the operating systems chorographic abilities and command structure. I know this might not be as exciting as porting Mozilla and the gimp, breaking clutter and making background images for kdm.... but it is the ESSENTIAL task of the distributions existense. It is too much work? Bullshit. It was/is the job and the reason for chosing one design over another. Now they have passed this who thing to a couple of redhat engineers, and perhaps not very good ones, btw. If you want that development to be easy and simple. drop back down to a BSD init like process. Even object oriented programmers can likely do that. Ruben
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On October 1, 2014 10:27:38 PM EDT, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
That is NOT grounds to grow xinetd into THE init system.
Actually, this is exactly the parallel. xinit has been slowing mothballed because of the inherent security problem with the super server dameon, and systemd is all but the same thing now, but even worse.
They people who did this have no idea wwhat kind of security nightmare they have created for the long haul.
I would like to address a point that Carlos made as to the problems that developers were having working on release deadlines with the initrd system. The ***truth is**** that time being taken was essentail, important and it was a good thing. We are talking about the central core of the operating systems chorographic abilities and command structure. I know this might not be as exciting as porting Mozilla and the gimp, breaking clutter and making background images for kdm....
but it is the ESSENTIAL task of the distributions existense. It is too much work? Bullshit. It was/is the job and the reason for chosing one design over another. Now they have passed this who thing to a couple of redhat engineers, and perhaps not very good ones, btw.
If you don't know when Novell/SUSE decided to implement systemd they hired Sievers for a year or two. I don't know the details, but I clearly remember him pushing code into (pulling code into) factory. I suspect their goal had little to do with reducing the effort associated with supporting sysvinit. Instead, they were looking at the pros related to having enough commonality with red hat to draw in the Oracles of the world as ISVs of SLES. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Greg Freemyer wrote:
On October 1, 2014 10:27:38 PM EDT, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
That is NOT grounds to grow xinetd into THE init system.
Actually, this is exactly the parallel. xinit has been slowing mothballed because of the inherent security problem with the super server dameon, and systemd is all but the same thing now, but even worse.
They people who did this have no idea wwhat kind of security nightmare they have created for the long haul.
I would like to address a point that Carlos made as to the problems that developers were having working on release deadlines with the initrd system. The ***truth is**** that time being taken was essentail, important and it was a good thing. We are talking about the central core of the operating systems chorographic abilities and command structure. I know this might not be as exciting as porting Mozilla and the gimp, breaking clutter and making background images for kdm....
but it is the ESSENTIAL task of the distributions existense. It is too much work? Bullshit. It was/is the job and the reason for chosing one design over another. Now they have passed this who thing to a couple of redhat engineers, and perhaps not very good ones, btw.
If you don't know when Novell/SUSE decided to implement systemd they hired Sievers for a year or two.
I don't know the details, but I clearly remember him pushing code into (pulling code into) factory.
I suspect their goal had little to do with reducing the effort associated with supporting sysvinit. Instead, they were looking at the pros related to having enough commonality with red hat to draw in the Oracles of the world as ISVs of SLES.
Never underestimate Novell management's ability to take something good and fuck it up horribly. The company has been Unix-centric since day one (Novell Networking *IS* Unix Version 6 with networking added on)... and yet, even within the industry, to this day, few people would associate Novell with Unix or even Linux. If they had any sense about them Novell could have cleaned the clocks of Sun, HP, SGI and any other Unix vendors in competition for workstations and desktops, and even displaced Microsoft. But they've never really had any real strategic vision.
Greg
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Ruben Safir wrote:
That is NOT grounds to grow xinetd into THE init system.
Actually, this is exactly the parallel. xinit has been slowing mothballed because of the inherent security problem with the super server dameon, and systemd is all but the same thing now, but even worse.
They people who did this have no idea wwhat kind of security nightmare they have created for the long haul.
I would like to address a point that Carlos made as to the problems that developers were having working on release deadlines with the initrd system. The ***truth is**** that time being taken was essentail, important and it was a good thing. We are talking about the central core of the operating systems chorographic abilities and command structure. I know this might not be as exciting as porting Mozilla and the gimp, breaking clutter and making background images for kdm....
but it is the ESSENTIAL task of the distributions existense. It is too much work? Bullshit. It was/is the job and the reason for chosing one design over another. Now they have passed this who thing to a couple of redhat engineers, and perhaps not very good ones, btw.
As my grandfather would have called them, "high school engineers" (In the U.S., "high school" is years 9-12 of basic education, and is the general requirement for applying to colleges & universities.
If you want that development to be easy and simple. drop back down to a BSD init like process. Even object oriented programmers can likely do that.
One thing I like about BSD init is that it is quite reliable.
Ruben
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Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
В Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 -0400 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com> пишет:
linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # ./cron start redirecting to systemctl start .service Starting CRON daemon done linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep systemctl ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep system ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d #
Hmmm, the cron start/stop script contains NO references to systemctl, not even in a comment, so I have a question --
How in the ***FUCK*** is this getting redirected to a systemctl command?
You told us so many times how easy it is to understand what script under /etc/init.d does by just looking at it and now you ask this question? What prevents you from just looking at script and answer yourself?
What part of "bash has been hacked" did you not fucking understand? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff!
^^^^
A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references.
Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well.
Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD".
Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun.
The operation of init is self-evident. I never needed to read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation before having a clue how it worked... all I needed to do was read a couple paragraphs on the inittab manpage, and a couple of paragraphs on the init manpage.
With that small bit of knowledge, I can configure any any init-style system (SysVInit, BSD's init, etc) with a minimum amount of fuss.
Trying to configure a systemd system to do something that Sievert & Poeetering didn't anticipate, or worse yet, correct something they've fucked up is, frankly, WORSE than getting four impacted wisdom teeth removed -- and I know, because I've experienced it.
Just because its beyond your understanding, doesn;t mean everyone else is having problems.
An earlier commenter was right...
SystemD isn't just a replacement for init, but a powergrab. If it WERE just a replacement for init, then it would continue to just call the scripts in /etc/init.d to carry out their various functions, instead of completely replacing their functionality.
And how is it that when I run a script in /etc/init.d, I get some message, "redirecting to systemctl to start ... "
linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # ./cron start redirecting to systemctl start .service Starting CRON daemon done linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep systemctl ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d # grep system ./cron linux-86ja:/etc/init.d #
Hmmm, the cron start/stop script contains NO references to systemctl, not even in a comment, so I have a question --
How in the ***FUCK*** is this getting redirected to a systemctl command?
Have these assholes now hacked bash to intercept any execution of a script in /etc/init.d
This is absolute bullshit, because now we see something else that has been "fixed" by Poettering in the most self-serving of ways --- rather than edit the /etc/init.d scripts to look for systemctl, and if found, run the systemctl command, it's quite obvious that bash has been changed to operating e a completely unexpected and undocumented manner, all for the purpose of grabbing more power.
Fuck Sievert & Poettering, and fuck anybody who supports this fucking bullshit.
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ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff!
^^^^
A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references.
Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well.
Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD".
Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun.
The operation of init is self-evident. I never needed to read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation before having a clue how it worked... all I needed to do was read a couple paragraphs on the inittab manpage, and a couple of paragraphs on the init manpage.
With that small bit of knowledge, I can configure any any init-style system (SysVInit, BSD's init, etc) with a minimum amount of fuss.
Trying to configure a systemd system to do something that Sievert & Poeetering didn't anticipate, or worse yet, correct something they've fucked up is, frankly, WORSE than getting four impacted wisdom teeth removed -- and I know, because I've experienced it.
Just because its beyond your understanding, doesn;t mean everyone else is having problems.
Stop with the bullshit. I ROUTINELY work on 4 or more different types of Unix/Linux in a single day....and have done so since 1985. Ploease give us a VALID reason why an init system should be so fucking complicated that it takes over 200 pages of documentation to explain it. Please, I would just LOVE to hear the argument that any Init system SHOULD be so complicated that it requires 200 pages of documentation. So, come on asshole, tell us why needing 200 pages to explain your init system is not only reasonable, but good. If you can't do that, then act like a civilized adult and concede the point. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 19:20:58 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff!
^^^^
A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references.
Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well.
Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD".
Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun.
The operation of init is self-evident. I never needed to read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation before having a clue how it worked... all I needed to do was read a couple paragraphs on the inittab manpage, and a couple of paragraphs on the init manpage.
With that small bit of knowledge, I can configure any any init-style system (SysVInit, BSD's init, etc) with a minimum amount of fuss.
Trying to configure a systemd system to do something that Sievert & Poeetering didn't anticipate, or worse yet, correct something they've fucked up is, frankly, WORSE than getting four impacted wisdom teeth removed -- and I know, because I've experienced it.
Just because its beyond your understanding, doesn;t mean everyone else is having problems.
Stop with the bullshit. I ROUTINELY work on 4 or more different types of Unix/Linux in a single day....and have done so since 1985.
Ploease give us a VALID reason why an init system should be so fucking complicated that it takes over 200 pages of documentation to explain it.
Please, I would just LOVE to hear the argument that any Init system SHOULD be so complicated that it requires 200 pages of documentation.
So, come on asshole, tell us why needing 200 pages to explain your init system is not only reasonable, but good.
If you can't do that, then act like a civilized adult and concede the point.
you're the one ranting like a child, you wouldn't know what a civilised adult looks or sounds like as you've so often proved. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 19:20:58 Dirk Gently wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 21:28:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote: > Such a fundamental gaff! > ^^^^
A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
In this context is the the root page of the articles on systemd: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
Or to put it another way, such a basic URL for pulling in all the discussion on systemd that easily refutes all that aaron-as-dirk is saying, if he'd bothered to read it. That page has 'hooks', references.
Of course a pile more could be refuted by actually reading the code, but that takes a modicum of understanding of C. Gaffs-as-hooks are used at Sea as well.
Of course you could also accuse me of making a pun-as-typo: the term 'gaffe', that is a hook with a 'e' hooked on the end, means a 'blunder'. Yes, aaron-as-dirk made a blunder by referring to "SystemD".
Well the best that can be said for aaron-as-dirk is that he takes himself too seriously so would never appreciate such a pun.
The operation of init is self-evident. I never needed to read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of documentation before having a clue how it worked... all I needed to do was read a couple paragraphs on the inittab manpage, and a couple of paragraphs on the init manpage.
With that small bit of knowledge, I can configure any any init-style system (SysVInit, BSD's init, etc) with a minimum amount of fuss.
Trying to configure a systemd system to do something that Sievert & Poeetering didn't anticipate, or worse yet, correct something they've fucked up is, frankly, WORSE than getting four impacted wisdom teeth removed -- and I know, because I've experienced it.
Just because its beyond your understanding, doesn;t mean everyone else is having problems.
Stop with the bullshit. I ROUTINELY work on 4 or more different types of Unix/Linux in a single day....and have done so since 1985.
Ploease give us a VALID reason why an init system should be so fucking complicated that it takes over 200 pages of documentation to explain it.
Please, I would just LOVE to hear the argument that any Init system SHOULD be so complicated that it requires 200 pages of documentation.
So, come on asshole, tell us why needing 200 pages to explain your init system is not only reasonable, but good.
If you can't do that, then act like a civilized adult and concede the point.
you're the one ranting like a child, you wouldn't know what a civilised adult looks or sounds like as you've so often proved.
I'm not the one claiming that ANY piece of software is flawless. You ARE. Asshole.
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On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-29 07:50, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
ROTFL! X'-) (Me, I thought that "gaff" was related to "gaffer" (Tolkien's) before reading the explanation from Anton) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 09/29/2014 07:20 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
(Me, I thought that "gaff" was related to "gaffer" (Tolkien's) before reading the explanation from Anton)
No, a gaffer is what a goffer becomes when he grows old. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gaffer See also http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-24/ -- To mathematicians, solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists, solutions are things that are still all mixed up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/09/2014 18:55, Doug a écrit :
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
you should ask on factory for a team to do the work, like kde3 fans did, why not? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior, and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period. Dissidents always have existed throughout history, and the people who won't adopt it or learn to use it are exactly that. Systemd is not going away as all the major distros have adopted it. Anyone can rant and rave, scream murder, wave their arms, etc., but it's all falling on deaf ears, especially on this email list. If you don't like Systemd, then you should program your own system and service manager or start/use a distro which doesn't use it. Obviously there were several major technically superior advantages to going the Systemd route over System V. It's not like Pottering used trickery and secret mind powers to get all the major distros to adopt it. The Systemd "whiners" are a much more vocal group of individuals on the internet as opposed to people who like Systemd and are actually getting work done. Another thing to consider is that many of the Systemd whiners don't have the programming skills or appropriate job placement to leverage an alternative. Instead, they act like 8 year olds whose toy got broken, and scream and cry, yet it changes nothing. Like the psychopathic troll Dirk/Aaron; a perfect example of a person who writes lots of nonsense and achieves absolutely nothing. It's quite entertaining to me, to say the least. Systemd is here to stay, like it or not. On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:07 AM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 29/09/2014 18:55, Doug a écrit :
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
you should ask on factory for a team to do the work, like kde3 fans did, why not?
jdd
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On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:24:58AM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior,
No, it is nothing like that.. But you have also earned your way into /dev/null
and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period. Dissidents always have existed throughout history,
And this is why? I was locked up for chaining my sell to the USSR Embassy over the protection fo Jewish DISSIDENTS in the former USSR... because that was important. Who the FUCK ARE YOU to call people who see systemd for what it is, a power grab, as DISSIDENTS? Are you now the fucking KGB? What are you, like 14 years old? Do they allow children on mailing lists? Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
This is a perfect example of the Systemd whiners that achieve nothing. And this character Ruben, no idea who he is, but he sounds just as psychotic as Dirk. Who knows, maybe they're the same person. I hope both are getting psychiatric care. On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:24:58AM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior,
No, it is nothing like that.. But you have also earned your way into /dev/null
and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period. Dissidents always have existed throughout history,
And this is why? I was locked up for chaining my sell to the USSR Embassy over the protection fo Jewish DISSIDENTS in the former USSR... because that was important.
Who the FUCK ARE YOU to call people who see systemd for what it is, a power grab, as DISSIDENTS? Are you now the fucking KGB?
What are you, like 14 years old? Do they allow children on mailing lists?
Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
This is a perfect example of the Systemd whiners that achieve nothing. And this character Ruben, no idea who he is, but he sounds just as psychotic as Dirk. Who knows, maybe they're the same person. I hope both are getting psychiatric care.
Rueben is saying that you've already demonstrated that you aren't intereested in having a discussion in good faith. Also, what part of /dev/null did you not understand? The very fact that you DON'T understand this reference indicates that you probably aren't comprehending a hell of a lot of the anti-systgemd argument.. You hear all of the propagands ("Ooooh, SystemD can do that, tooo!?!?!?) without realizing that most of what SystemD does, it does in a far WORSE manner than SsVInit performed the same tasks. Have you ever even administrated a system using the SysVInit or a BSD RCinit system, to the extend that you had to do anything "hand configuration" of the system to get it to do what YOU want it to do, not what was just "issued" to you by the devs? Because it sounds like you haven't...and you're just relying (hoping) that the SysV devs will anticipate all of your wants and desires, and that you'll never actually have to edit any of the systemd config files. I have...and they're fucking atrocious.
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:24:58AM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior,
No, it is nothing like that.. But you have also earned your way into /dev/null
and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period. Dissidents always have existed throughout history,
And this is why? I was locked up for chaining my sell to the USSR Embassy over the protection fo Jewish DISSIDENTS in the former USSR... because that was important.
Who the FUCK ARE YOU to call people who see systemd for what it is, a power grab, as DISSIDENTS? Are you now the fucking KGB?
What are you, like 14 years old? Do they allow children on mailing lists?
Ruben
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Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:24:58AM -0700, Sam M. wrote:
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior,
No, it is nothing like that.. But you have also earned your way into /dev/null
and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period. Dissidents always have existed throughout history,
And this is why? I was locked up for chaining my sell to the USSR Embassy over the protection fo Jewish DISSIDENTS in the former USSR... because that was important.
Who the FUCK ARE YOU to call people who see systemd for what it is, a power grab, as DISSIDENTS? Are you now the fucking KGB?
What are you, like 14 years old? Do they allow children on mailing lists?
Look at what happed when I informed Ian that... 1. Adults are talking, and since he doesn't display adult understanding of the argument he should 2 A. Sit the fuck down B. Shut the Fuck Up. And what did he do? He spazzed out like a child for being called out as a fundamentally childish person.
Ruben
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Le 29/09/2014 19:24, Sam M. a écrit :
superior advantages to going the Systemd route over System V. It's not like Pottering used trickery and secret mind powers to get all the major distros to adopt it.
hu.. are you sure his nickname is not "Harry" Potter?
absolutely nothing. It's quite entertaining to me, to say the least.
not sure :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
The Systemd debate is reminiscent of the flamewars between Torvalds and Tanenbaum over whose kernel was superior, and that's long over. Just like the Systemd debate is over. Period.
Tannenbaum was emotionally invested in his "baby", which had been shown to be quite lacking, and unable to play well with others, especially for the product of a tenured professor (and for which Tannenbaum was charging cold, hard cash), compared to what was then a hobby project by a somewhat bored and curious graduate student. Those of us on the anti-systemd side do *NOT* hold SysVInit to be the end-all and be-all of how to bring up a system... our complaint is that system replaces a simple, low-CPU-cycle system, which has deficiencies, but deficiencies which are well understood AND which can be worked around relatively simply (worst-case scenario -- hand-mounting filesystems on external filesystems... but which CAN be automated well enough -- to the point of providing a desktop icon for naive users). In place of this limited, and admittedly long-in-the-tooth init system, which has the benefit of simplicity, modularity, etc (the 12 guide-posts of GOOD programming listed elsewhere in this thread), the systemd advocates say that we should throw all of that out, and replace it with a godawful monstrosity which violates every long-recognized principle of good program design, every principle of robustness, and is long enough that bugs probably still exist...which necessitates an update at sometime in which the executable for process 1 MUSST be replaced, thereby forcing a reboot. We *WANT* a replacement for SysVInit... but if we're going to make such a change, then it better be something better, not one which replaces well-understood, minor deficiencies with not-well-understood, major deficiencies, written by a couple of goofballs who think that they're God's Gift to Coding and so they don't need to abide by fundamental principles of software engineering. Dissidents always have
existed throughout history, and the people who won't adopt it or learn to use it are exactly that. Systemd is not going away as all the major distros have adopted it. Anyone can rant and rave, scream murder, wave their arms, etc., but it's all falling on deaf ears, especially on this email list. If you don't like Systemd, then you should program your own system and service manager or start/use a distro which doesn't use it. Obviously there were several major technically superior advantages to going the Systemd route over System V. It's not like Pottering used trickery and secret mind powers to get all the major distros to adopt it. The Systemd "whiners" are a much more vocal group of individuals on the internet as opposed to people who like Systemd and are actually getting work done. Another thing to consider is that many of the Systemd whiners don't have the programming skills or appropriate job placement to leverage an alternative. Instead, they act like 8 year olds whose toy got broken, and scream and cry, yet it changes nothing. Like the psychopathic troll Dirk/Aaron; a perfect example of a person who writes lots of nonsense and achieves absolutely nothing. It's quite entertaining to me, to say the least. Systemd is here to stay, like it or not.
blah blah blah... paint anyone who objects as being disqualified to comment. My, that's might Marxist of you. And we know how Marxists are far more interested in replacement for replacement's sake, and grabbing power than they are in actually improving ANYTHING they get involved in (unless "improving" means ... more power for them, and less power for everyone else) If SystemD wasn't such a bloated piece of over-architected crap, with arcane, overburdened, over-tagged XML config files, there wouldn't be objections from so many people. Note that the resistance to system is NOT from just a few fringe lunatics... it is LARGE, because so many of us recognize it to be a disaster in the making. Most of us have been administrating Unix and Linux systems since before you even touched a keyboard.
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:07 AM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 29/09/2014 18:55, Doug a écrit :
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
you should ask on factory for a team to do the work, like kde3 fans did, why not?
jdd
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relatively simply (worst-case scenario -- hand-mounting filesystems on external filesystems... but which CAN be automated well enough -- to the point of providing a desktop icon for naive users).
In place of this limited, and admittedly long-in-the-tooth init system, which has the benefit of simplicity, modularity, etc (the 12 guide-posts of GOOD programming listed elsewhere in this thread), the systemd advocates say that we should throw all of that out, and replace it with a godawful monstrosity which violates every long-recognized principle of good program design, every principle of robustness, and is long enough that bugs probably still exist...which necessitates an update at sometime in which the executable for process 1 MUSST be replaced, thereby forcing a reboot.
It just all but hosed my video card make up and x11 configuration. Both my systems which ran nvideo are now just displaying blank screens, and my workstation says... gdm is broken, call your sysadm. It should have been even involved with those setting on the upgrade. Then, I loaded up a thumb drive with a opensuse gnome live image on it. the systemd crap that automounted it wouldn't unautomount it and stored the information somewhere so that when I pulled the drive from the usb port, it not only remained mounted, but it gave a full report on ls -alt You can't make this shit up. this is TOTALLY broken and beyound understand. I've been running into crap like this every day since systemd was put on my system. I just have to get rid of it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
relatively simply (worst-case scenario -- hand-mounting filesystems on external filesystems... but which CAN be automated well enough -- to the point of providing a desktop icon for naive users).
In place of this limited, and admittedly long-in-the-tooth init system, which has the benefit of simplicity, modularity, etc (the 12 guide-posts of GOOD programming listed elsewhere in this thread), the systemd advocates say that we should throw all of that out, and replace it with a godawful monstrosity which violates every long-recognized principle of good program design, every principle of robustness, and is long enough that bugs probably still exist...which necessitates an update at sometime in which the executable for process 1 MUSST be replaced, thereby forcing a reboot.
It just all but hosed my video card make up and x11 configuration. Both my systems which ran nvideo are now just displaying blank screens, and my workstation says... gdm is broken, call your sysadm.
It should have been even involved with those setting on the upgrade.
Then, I loaded up a thumb drive with a opensuse gnome live image on it. the systemd crap that automounted it wouldn't unautomount it and stored the information somewhere so that when I pulled the drive from the usb port, it not only remained mounted, but it gave a full report on ls -alt
You can't make this shit up. this is TOTALLY broken and beyound understand. I've been running into crap like this every day since systemd was put on my system. I just have to get rid of it.
I hear you man. As http://ewontfix.com/ puts it so well. BROKEN BY FUCKING DESIGN -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote: > Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
There is a pre-pubescent effort: http://markmail.org/message/udlqatpl7e2aqlyr which in turn refers to: https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/Base:sysv The TODO list is: : * package completeness (gettys, initrd material, network setup) * collect and implement needed items for script from package sysv-transition that shall run while systemd is still there. * also: coordinate how packages are going to be handled that have no sysvinit script any longer, build dependent or init script removed. * Obsoletes, Requires, Recommends tags in package meta-install-sysvinit * initrd (check?) * cryptsetup (check?) * network setup, ifup for the time being. If anyone wants to work on it they should reach out to Roman Drahtmueller I assume. His email says he maiy have time to work on it the next couple months. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/Base:sysv
The TODO list is: : * package completeness (gettys, initrd material, network setup) * collect and implement needed items for script from package sysv-transition that shall run while systemd is still there. * also: coordinate how packages are going to be handled that have no sysvinit script any longer, build dependent or init script removed. * Obsoletes, Requires, Recommends tags in package meta-install-sysvinit * initrd (check?) * cryptsetup (check?) * network setup, ifup for the time being.
If anyone wants to work on it they should reach out to Roman Drahtmueller I assume. His email says he maiy have time to work on it the next couple months.
Good Job! The Jedi light has not gone out in the universe yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote: > On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote: >> Such a fundamental gaff! > ^^^^ > A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
There is a pre-pubescent effort:
http://markmail.org/message/udlqatpl7e2aqlyr
which in turn refers to:
https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/Base:sysv
The TODO list is: : * package completeness (gettys, initrd material, network setup) * collect and implement needed items for script from package sysv-transition that shall run while systemd is still there. * also: coordinate how packages are going to be handled that have no sysvinit script any longer, build dependent or init script removed. * Obsoletes, Requires, Recommends tags in package meta-install-sysvinit * initrd (check?) * cryptsetup (check?) * network setup, ifup for the time being.
If anyone wants to work on it they should reach out to Roman Drahtmueller I assume. His email says he maiy have time to work on it the next couple months.
First positive thing I've seen in this respect in a long, long time. Thanks, Greg.
Greg
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On 29/09/14 17:55, Doug wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
--doug
The question has been asked and answered. OpenSUSE uses systemd, Full stop. Don't like that find a distro that uses sysv. The whole thing is a waste of bandwidth. I just wish it would stop. Please. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 17:55, Doug wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
--doug
The question has been asked and answered. OpenSUSE uses systemd, Full stop.
Don't like that find a distro that uses sysv.
The whole thing is a waste of bandwidth. I just wish it would stop. Please.
Boo fucking hoo hoo hoo. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Doug wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote: > Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
Well, now you see you've gotten to the crux of the matter. SystemD is not merely designed to replace SysVInit, but in fact (by forcing libsystemd library calls into the deamons) to completely cut off the oxygen to any and all other init systems. Because Sievert and Poettering narcissistically believe themselves to be omniscient, and they're basically a couple of power-hungry assholes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, September 29, 2014 12:55:10 PM Doug wrote:
On 09/29/2014 08:44 AM, michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote: > Such a fundamental gaff! > ^^^^
A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
--doug
My silly question.... Who is going to maintain sysV or keep the sysV code up to date? Attacks Ad Infinitum, Attacks Ad Hominen, Attacks Ad Libitum will not solve these issues but collaboration team could. So, again who is going to write the new code to make it available for .... Enjoy the thread. Best Regards, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
My silly question.... Who is going to maintain sysV or keep the sysV code up to date?
Attacks Ad Infinitum, Attacks Ad Hominen, Attacks Ad Libitum
will not solve these issues but collaboration team could.
So, again who is going to write the new code to make it available for ....
Enjoy the thread.
It is not a silly question at all. But it is not init that is the problem. It is the system scripts that need all the work Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:21:59 -0400 Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
So, again who is going to write the new code to make it available for ....
Enjoy the thread.
It is not a silly question at all. But it is not init that is the problem. It is the system scripts that need all the work Well, I'll volunteer to mainatin a bunch of scripts as soon as I finished to migrate all my production machines to FreeBSD (I'm moreless half-way... :-).
Luciano -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-29 18:55, Doug wrote:
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
Create a fork of openSUSE and get working yourself on that. You will not convince the people doing openSUSE now to do it for you. Further discussion is futile. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something... "We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." -dnh -- alias woman='man -a' -- Volker Birk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/01/2014 07:52 AM, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
Having regard to the qualities of this thread - or the lack of them - I'd have thought "dissimulated" might be a better fit. -- Robin K Wellington "Harbour City" New Zealand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-30 20:52 (UTC+0200):
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
Resistance against a threat or force anticipated or in process can work because of hope for victory, a better future. The walls are down. Systemd has overtaken, engulfed, openSUSE. For better or worse, systemd is its now and its foreseeable future. The only hope remaining for openSUSE's systemd resistors confident systemd is pure unadulterated evil who wish to remain with openSUSE is for a savior. Energy here is being wasted on feigned resistance to what has already transpired. Better that it be focused where there is realistic hope, a better init system than either systemd or sysvinit for openSUSE (savior). The only other option is abandoning openSUSE for a distro where hope to successfully thwart systemd remains realistic. Who, seeing this vulgar, inconsiderate, lengthy, useless thread overwhelming the archive, would feel switching from anything else to openSUSE now would be anything like a desirable course of action? No good to openSUSE or its users will come from it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dear list readers, I will _not_ enter the discussion about pro's and con's on the subject. Neither who's is right/wrong spreading unfounded arguments Nor about the level/quality of the arguments. BUT: If you feel so strong about it, and have so much energy in debating about it, I would suggest to use the overwhelming amount of energy & time in a more positive and constructive way, like branching of OS_12.x The OBS gives you all the power and the means to do that. Thank you for considering an alternative approach. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-) But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it. We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead. Further discussion is, thus, futile. -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 02:13:27 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-)
But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it.
We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead.
Further discussion is, thus, futile.
Exactly. If we can not fork and develop a desirable alternative to status quo any furious discussion is futile. It only gets people hurt, angry, despaired, defenseless and hopeless. IIRC, the maintainers of systemV were having some difficulties to keep it up and fully functional with each release. I do ignore the full insights. I just remember some distros decision to switch to systemd was based on the those arguments (fully true or not true on details will need the inside developers to tell.). It obvious systemd has some advocates and detractors. Both sides have arguments to sustain ad infinitum. Reality check show us we are not developing a real and complete solutions to actual issues under the hood. Not just openSUSE but the Linux UNIX community (all planning to move to systemd because not true alternatives on their ways). Best Regards, P.S.: No Flames Required -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ricardo Chung wrote:
On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 02:13:27 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-)
But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it.
We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead.
Further discussion is, thus, futile.
Exactly.
If we can not fork and develop a desirable alternative to status quo any furious discussion is futile. It only gets people hurt, angry, despaired, defenseless and hopeless.
IIRC, the maintainers of systemV were having some difficulties to keep it up and fully functional with each release. I do ignore the full insights. I just remember some distros decision to switch to systemd was based on the those arguments (fully true or not true on details will need the inside developers to tell.).
It obvious systemd has some advocates and detractors. Both sides have arguments to sustain ad infinitum.
Reality check show us we are not developing a real and complete solutions to actual issues under the hood. Not just openSUSE but the Linux UNIX community (all planning to move to systemd because not true alternatives on their ways).
Actually, there are several.
Look. This is all a powerplay by RedHat -- they're the one's cutting checks to Sievert and Poettering so that they can continue this vandalism 8+ hours a day rather than working for a living. If you all want to be slaves to Redhat, then don't complain to me when you wake up one day and realize that they own you.
Best Regards,
P.S.: No Flames Required
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 01 Oct 2014 01:28:21 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ricardo Chung wrote:
On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 02:13:27 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-)
But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it.
We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead.
Further discussion is, thus, futile.
Exactly.
If we can not fork and develop a desirable alternative to status quo any furious discussion is futile. It only gets people hurt, angry, despaired, defenseless and hopeless.
IIRC, the maintainers of systemV were having some difficulties to keep it up and fully functional with each release. I do ignore the full insights. I just remember some distros decision to switch to systemd was based on the those arguments (fully true or not true on details will need the inside developers to tell.).
It obvious systemd has some advocates and detractors. Both sides have arguments to sustain ad infinitum.
Reality check show us we are not developing a real and complete solutions to actual issues under the hood. Not just openSUSE but the Linux UNIX community (all planning to move to systemd because not true alternatives on their ways). Actually, there are several.
Look. This is all a powerplay by RedHat -- they're the one's cutting checks to Sievert and Poettering so that they can continue this vandalism 8+ hours a day rather than working for a living.
If you all want to be slaves to Redhat, then don't complain to me when you wake up one day and realize that they own you.
Well, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and bog off to xBSD or Slack and unsubscribe from opensuse forums (doing the latter first would be preferable to us all)
Best Regards,
P.S.: No Flames Required
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ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 01 Oct 2014 01:28:21 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ricardo Chung wrote:
On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 02:13:27 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-)
But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it.
We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead.
Further discussion is, thus, futile.
Exactly.
If we can not fork and develop a desirable alternative to status quo any furious discussion is futile. It only gets people hurt, angry, despaired, defenseless and hopeless.
IIRC, the maintainers of systemV were having some difficulties to keep it up and fully functional with each release. I do ignore the full insights. I just remember some distros decision to switch to systemd was based on the those arguments (fully true or not true on details will need the inside developers to tell.).
It obvious systemd has some advocates and detractors. Both sides have arguments to sustain ad infinitum.
Reality check show us we are not developing a real and complete solutions to actual issues under the hood. Not just openSUSE but the Linux UNIX community (all planning to move to systemd because not true alternatives on their ways). Actually, there are several.
Look. This is all a powerplay by RedHat -- they're the one's cutting checks to Sievert and Poettering so that they can continue this vandalism 8+ hours a day rather than working for a living.
If you all want to be slaves to Redhat, then don't complain to me when you wake up one day and realize that they own you.
Well, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and bog off to xBSD or Slack and unsubscribe from opensuse forums (doing the latter first would be preferable to us all)
Why should I cede ground to a Borderline Personality Disordered asshole like you?
Best Regards,
P.S.: No Flames Required
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On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 01:28:21 AM Dirk Gently wrote:
Ricardo Chung wrote:
On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 02:13:27 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-30 20:52, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Further discussion is futile.
This attitude displayed not only by you reminds a LOT of something...
"We are systemd of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
I know :-)
But, the meaning is different, and you did not understand it.
We can talk, discuss, argue, insult one another as much as you wish... to no purpose. Linux is not a democracy, there is no voting. It is the people that do the work who decide things. And they decided to use systemd. And no matter how much some people hate it, there is nothing they can do... except get working and create a fork, branch, whatever, using sytemv instead.
Further discussion is, thus, futile.
Exactly.
If we can not fork and develop a desirable alternative to status quo any furious discussion is futile. It only gets people hurt, angry, despaired, defenseless and hopeless.
IIRC, the maintainers of systemV were having some difficulties to keep it up and fully functional with each release. I do ignore the full insights. I just remember some distros decision to switch to systemd was based on the those arguments (fully true or not true on details will need the inside developers to tell.).
It obvious systemd has some advocates and detractors. Both sides have arguments to sustain ad infinitum.
Reality check show us we are not developing a real and complete solutions to actual issues under the hood. Not just openSUSE but the Linux UNIX community (all planning to move to systemd because not true alternatives on their ways). Actually, there are several.
You do not need to CC to me. I am still a subscriber of this mailing list.
Look. This is all a powerplay by RedHat -- they're the one's cutting checks to Sievert and Poettering so that they can continue this vandalism 8+ hours a day rather than working for a living.
Perhaps. Power Conspiracy is always a possibility on this World and others. And smartguys have been always there to facilitate those transitions into controlled environments or spaces or populations.
If you all want to be slaves to Redhat, then don't complain to me when you wake up one day and realize that they own you.
It looks like you are assuming we are the subjects of some kind of Kingdom. And we will blame of you because that Invasion Army warning you made us was not heard or maybe we are going to blame your leadership failed to warn us about that corps snatcher (e.g. Red Hat or whoever). If that's the situation, Do Not worry about. That's not going to happen. Nobody will blame of you. Keep it Calm. We are not a Kingdom nor an Army nor Citizens. We move where we feel free to move or move away from Popes, Kings, Presidents, Leaders, Politicians, Corporations, etc. who would try to get us in their own boxes. Freedom is our Space and Choice is our Asset. We have been fighting for those principles from the early beginning of the humankind and Today is NOT the Day to surrender. Here it is another tool "to close the systemd gap" (irony included) http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html Best Regards, P.S.: No Flames Required. There is No attempts to Be Not Respectful to someone. Please forgive if my written words sounds like that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 18:55, Doug wrote:
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
Create a fork of openSUSE and get working yourself on that. You will not convince the people doing openSUSE now to do it for you.
Further discussion is futile.
So what you'e saying is... The people who run openSuse don't give a fuck about what their userbase says. Very interesting. How many projects and businesses last with a "fuck our clients" attitude? Do you think the business users who PAY good money for SLED, you know, the people who PAY good money to administrators to administrate openSuSE machines are going to sit idly by, while the ratio of administrators/computers is forced to rise considerably because systemd is an adminstration nightmare? For all that nonsense, might as well go BSD.
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Dirk Gently wrote:
How many projects and businesses last with a "fuck our clients" attitude?
Do you think the business users who PAY good money for SLED, you know, the people who PAY good money to administrators to administrate openSuSE machines are going to sit idly by, while the ratio of administrators/computers is forced to rise considerably because systemd is an adminstration nightmare?
--- They didn't pay enough. SuSE was bought out by a company making money off of selling office "appliances" and preconfigured HW-SW solutions. Where do you think they are going to direct funding? I agree it sucks, but until we get enough time to undo the damage and come up with a 'Tron' to oversee the new MCP, we have to weather the damage. Certainly I don't have time to argue and program at the same time, though my current efforts aren't going to repairing systemd damage -- that will probably wait until my next upgrade when I can do it all at once. Meanwhile, start developing workaround scripts and rpm patches to bring back pre-systemd functionality. Many rpm's simply have to be rebuilt with a no-systemd option .. some may have to be rolled back... don't throw away your older source disks! Sigh. I wish there was more of your last name in your attention to this matter, as much as I appreciate your point of view. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:
How many projects and businesses last with a "fuck our clients" attitude?
Do you think the business users who PAY good money for SLED, you know, the people who PAY good money to administrators to administrate openSuSE machines are going to sit idly by, while the ratio of administrators/computers is forced to rise considerably because systemd is an adminstration nightmare?
--- They didn't pay enough.
SuSE was bought out by a company making money off of selling office "appliances" and preconfigured HW-SW solutions. Where do you think they are going to direct funding?
I agree it sucks, but until we get enough time to undo the damage and come up with a 'Tron' to oversee the new MCP, we have to weather the damage. Certainly I don't have time to argue and program at the same time, though my current efforts aren't going to repairing systemd damage -- that will probably wait until my next upgrade when I can do it all at once. Meanwhile, start developing workaround scripts and rpm patches to bring back pre-systemd functionality.
Many rpm's simply have to be rebuilt with a no-systemd option .. some may have to be rolled back... don't throw away your older source disks!
Sigh. I wish there was more of your last name in your attention to this matter, as much as I appreciate your point of view.
Sadly, Ilve learnede tha trying to be reasonable with unreasonable people is a complete loser's game. The COUNT on you being nice and "reasonable" to both win AND leave their reputation untarnished. I'm too old to buy into that false option any more. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2014 02:01 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 18:55, Doug wrote:
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
Create a fork of openSUSE and get working yourself on that. You will not convince the people doing openSUSE now to do it for you.
Further discussion is futile.
Carlos, if I knew how to do that, I would be doing it. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-30 22:22, Doug wrote:
On 09/30/2014 02:01 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-29 18:55, Doug wrote:
Until somebody answers the question. Give details as to how to get rid of systemd and use sysv instead. Given the OS with systemd, how to get rid of it and make it work with sysv. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.
Create a fork of openSUSE and get working yourself on that. You will not convince the people doing openSUSE now to do it for you.
Further discussion is futile.
Carlos, if I knew how to do that, I would be doing it.
Then <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2io596_7U9o> :-) -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Elessar)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
michael norman wrote:
On 29/09/14 13:17, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 01:50 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 21:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:20 PM, David Haller wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Anton Aylward wrote:
Such a fundamental gaff! ^^^^ A what?
A gaff is a hook, or a tool for pulling something in
Used in the 1960's attached to a heavy duty crane to install computers. Now obsolete for such purposes.
Now replaced by human hands to lift computers from table and place in jeans pocket.
How much longer is this thread going to go on before it is stopped ?
Why do you care? Is it harming you? Is it depriving your of oxygen and sustenance? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 12:30 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Or in OTHER WORDS, SystemD is using a model which is fundamentally incompatible with the entire rest of Linux.
Ah, now you're talking!
I don't know what this 'SystemD' is, but its not the systemd I'm running on my Linux boxes and as P&S point out, that's not systemd.
<quote src="http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/"> Spelling
Yes, it is written systemd, not system D or System D, or even SystemD.
Ohhh, Capitalization flames. That's even lamer than a spelling flame. It's obvious that when you attack the capitalization rather than the argument, that you really can't defend this pile of shit -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
The only solution is a workaround. 844198 has been open for
almost a year. No one has addressed the issue.
<quote> Major changes in 1.12 (2013-12-10)
Add collection support to the KEYRING credential cache type on Linux, and add support for persistent user keyrings and larger credentials on systems which support them. </quote>
Factory (13.2) has 1.12.2. Did you look whether problem still exists there? If yes, did you test whether using kernel keyring solves it?
13.2 will not be released until November and even then it has to go to testing. Please don't introduce things which have not been tested or which need a workaround. If the workaround is the only way to fix it then please put it into a patch until your keyring or whatever does work. We want stability, not experimentation. Thanks, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-09-29 07:46, lynn wrote:
The only solution is a workaround. 844198 has been open for
almost a year. No one has addressed the issue.
<quote> Major changes in 1.12 (2013-12-10)
Add collection support to the KEYRING credential cache type on Linux, and add support for persistent user keyrings and larger credentials on systems which support them. </quote>
Factory (13.2) has 1.12.2. Did you look whether problem still exists there? If yes, did you test whether using kernel keyring solves it?
13.2 will not be released until November and even then it has to go to testing. Please don't introduce things which have not been tested or which need a workaround. If the workaround is the only way to fix it then please put it into a patch until your keyring or whatever does work. We want stability, not experimentation.
Hey, that thing was added on 2013. The question is simply that you, as a person that really knows about this issue, tests factory to find out if it does work or not. If it works, I think that 13.2 already contains it. If not, you may have to wait for 13.3 - but unless /you/ help by verifying whether it works in factory or not, the issue will not be solved. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlQpQgAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XY1QCbB1Sm4egru54wvsN3qgL0DAdV rNcAnjlGLLbuIx28SIOmWCTs9PB/HxBy =zzAI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/27/2014 08:01 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
The same could be said for init, shell, any program. That's a pointless argument and of no value. What if you hardware fails? Demonstrably that's more likely than systemd or init failing. Its clear that you're now grasping ant improbable straws, aaron. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/27/2014 08:01 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
The same could be said for init, shell, any program. That's a pointless argument and of no value.
With init, at least we know WHAT the hell is going on because as long as we at least get a working terminal, we can read the scripts in /etc/init.d
What if you hardware fails?
I'm talking about the case where the hardware is good, but the boot-up is hosed.
Demonstrably that's more likely than systemd or init failing.
Its clear that you're now grasping ant improbable straws, aaron.
You're handwaving to distract from the problem.
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On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 07:59:36AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/27/2014 08:01 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
And if SystemD FAILS before your GUI comes up (i.e. unrelated to the GUI), then what, Mr. Not-as-clever-as-you-think-you-are?
The same could be said for init, shell, any program. That's a pointless argument and of no value.
What if you hardware fails?
Demonstrably that's more likely than systemd or init failing.
The point goes right over your head. Is it because your not bright enough, or that you are too young or what is it with you? init and shell don't fail because they a small applications that run and then go AWAY, until systemd which just runs and runs and runs. So instead of a SYSTEM now, you have a single dameon that runs everything, and yes it can fail, and yes it does fail, and when it does forget about getting a shell since it also controls the getty process.
Its clear that you're now grasping ant improbable straws, aaron.
-- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 06:29 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
The point goes right over your head. Is it because your not bright enough, or that you are too young or what is it with you? init and shell don't fail because they a small applications that run and then go AWAY, until systemd which just runs and runs and runs.
So instead of a SYSTEM now, you have a single dameon that runs everything, and yes it can fail, and yes it does fail, and when it does forget about getting a shell since it also controls the getty process.
Its clear that you don't understand how either init or the shell work. In the MS-DOS world, derived from things like CP/M which in turn was derived from the DOS model of the PDP-8 and similar, the command executor worked in what was called the Transient Program Area, loaded the program in there, overwriting itself. In effect it 'ran and went away'. The shell is not like that. It parses the script. The script may be one line from the console or it may be a file. Its STDIN. DOS/MS-DOS differentiated between file input and console input. Shell builds the parse tree and walks it. It executes a subcommand such as test, which is now internal but was originally external. That it can branch and loop means that IT DOES NOT GO AWAY. Yes you can create subshell that have limited life, but the shell does not have the TPA model, it does not overlay itself with the programs it executes. It uses a fork+exec model rather than a simple execl model. The same applies to the init daemon. It really should be called 'initd'. Like systemd it does stuff and hangs around. It is the parent of many processes and also, please read the documentation, adopts orphaned processes and cleans up after them. If you look up the old man pages for 'init' http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?init+8 you will see that it has an alias 'telinit'. The man page makes it very clear that this is a daemon an is responsible for spawning gettys. The real problem with systemd as far as size and complexity goes is that it has to deal with backward compatibility with the old way of doing things. We've been though this kind of thing before. When inetd replaced all the individual network listeners that too was considered revolutionary, but at least its control table was in a familiar format, the comma separated list in a single file. In due course that was replaced by xinetd and the single line was replaced by the mode capable 'stanzas', which were familiar to people who had used Smail3 as an alternative to sendmail. Those of us who used AIX found that IBM was very much in favour of stanzas over single lines as they were a lot clearer and allowed for embedded documentation. Back to http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht... <quote> 2. Clarity is better than cleverness. </quote> The same code for parsing stanzas was folded into grep so that the people who got in a later over not being able to grep the single lines were ameliorated. That systemd might fail is beside the point. Init could fail. If you look at the old man page http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/cgi-bin/man-cgi?init+1 you will see <quote> init Failure If init exits for any reason other than system shutdown, it will be restarted with process-ID 1. </quote> The same applies to systemd. If you were using UNIX V7 on a PDP-11 I might grant you that the original Bourne shell was a very small piece of code, but the reality is that the shell has grown and grown and grown. Most of it is now to do with user interaction at the command line rather than its capability as a programming language. That user interaction has led to the increased complexity of what was, back in the V7 days, as documented in Bell System Journal of 1978, a very simple and straight forward piece of code. If you want something to meaningfully rant about based on the arguments against systemd of this thread, they they would be more reasonably applied to what has happened to the shell. While I can defend the init => systemd evolution I don't think I can defend the Bourne Shell => Bash evolution in the same way. You might also read the man page for systemd. It does document the ways that a failure can start a shell at a terminal, which is more than you'd find on the old init man page! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/27/2014 08:01 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Nice straw man you've got there. Now try addressing my actual argument.
You don't have an argument, just smoke and noise, the Big lie. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:45:12AM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
Not easily. Sievert and Poettering have sabotaged the deamons, so that if you don't have systemd installed, then there will be unresolved library calls. Thus, you can't uninstall systemd.
Personally, i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism.
And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
What does slackware do then?
ruben
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:45:12AM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
Not easily. Sievert and Poettering have sabotaged the deamons, so that if you don't have systemd installed, then there will be unresolved library calls. Thus, you can't uninstall systemd.
Personally, i think they should be arrested and charged with vandalism.
And then shot in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
What does slackware do then?
ruben
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
This may be of interest to some of you... http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 00:02:44 Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Try this link, not sure if it still a valid process. opensuse details how to go back to sysvinit https://doc.opensuse.org/release-notes/x86_64/openSUSE/12.1/#16 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/24/2014 01:59 PM, ianseeks wrote:
Try this link, not sure if it still a valid process. opensuse details how to go back to sysvinit
https://doc.opensuse.org/release-notes/x86_64/openSUSE/12.1/#16 -- .....................
- in Tumbleweed : Yast shows installable package : sysvinit-init .................... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:59:42AM +0100, ianseeks wrote:
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2014 00:02:44 Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Try this link, not sure if it still a valid process. opensuse details how to go back to sysvinit
https://doc.opensuse.org/release-notes/x86_64/openSUSE/12.1/#16
Thank you
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/23/2014 09:02 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Ruben I hesitate to put this out there only because once I do, I fear the technique will be "patched out". What I found is that there is a sourced, common function that checks for systemctl. If it exists, transfers the init script function to systemctl/systemd to manage the service. What I do for things I don't want systemd to mess with, before the start block of the init script, I rename systemctl to make it so that function can't see it and notmal script function isn't modified. I still have to chase down original init scripts and insert my die-systemd function, but I can minimize the impact it has on my system. YMMV. Here's what truly fascinates me; The systemd test functions were placed into /etc/rc.status. It's ONLY function originally was to do the nice colored status read-outs for the init scripts It just FEELS like spaghetti coding, but it does make it easy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Bruce Ferrell wrote:
On 09/23/2014 09:02 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Ruben
I hesitate to put this out there only because once I do, I fear the technique will be "patched out".
What I found is that there is a sourced, common function that checks for systemctl. If it exists, transfers the init script function to systemctl/systemd to manage the service.
What I do for things I don't want systemd to mess with, before the start block of the init script, I rename systemctl to make it so that function can't see it and notmal script function isn't modified. I still have to chase down original init scripts and insert my die-systemd function, but I can minimize the impact it has on my system. YMMV.
Here's what truly fascinates me; The systemd test functions were placed into /etc/rc.status. It's ONLY function originally was to do the nice colored status read-outs for the init scripts
It just FEELS like spaghetti coding, but it does make it easy.
Everything about SystemD reminds me of speghetti code... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/23/2014 11:02 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Technically - yes, in the real-world - no. Regardless of the learning-curve, you just have to bite the bullet and make friends with systemd. Did I want to do it - NO. Did it suck a bit - Yes. After paying the price am I satisfied that systemd is the right way to go - Yes. With freedesktop.org behind it, it is the way of the future, like it or not. So, here it's a "can't beat em', so join em' deal". What made it less painful were several aliases that cut down on the damn repetitive typing of 'systemctl long novel of opts' or 'journalctl same long stuff', so I cheated: I have the following saved as '~/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc': ## systemd aliases ## list systemd services & enabled services alias lsd='ls -1 /usr/lib/systemd/system/' alias lsde='ls -1 l1 /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/' if test "$UID" -eq 0 ; then alias sc='systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='journalctl' alias jcn='journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='journalctl --no-pager --full -f' else alias sc='sudo systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='sudo systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='sudo systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='sudo journalctl' alias jcn='sudo journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full -f' fi I just source it in my ~/.bashrc as follows [ -r "/home/david/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc" ] && \ . /home/david/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc Cutting down the typing really helped focus the learning on systemd rather the frustration of typing the lengthy commands over and over. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David C. Rankin wrote:
On 09/23/2014 11:02 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
Technically - yes, in the real-world - no. Regardless of the learning-curve, you just have to bite the bullet and make friends with systemd. Did I want to do it - NO. Did it suck a bit - Yes. After paying the price am I satisfied that systemd is the right way to go - Yes. With freedesktop.org behind it, it is the way of the future, like it or not. So, here it's a "can't beat em', so join em' deal".
What made it less painful were several aliases that cut down on the damn repetitive typing of 'systemctl long novel of opts' or 'journalctl same long stuff', so I cheated:
I have the following saved as '~/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc':
## systemd aliases
## list systemd services & enabled services alias lsd='ls -1 /usr/lib/systemd/system/' alias lsde='ls -1 l1 /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/'
if test "$UID" -eq 0 ; then alias sc='systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='journalctl' alias jcn='journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='journalctl --no-pager --full -f' else alias sc='sudo systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='sudo systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='sudo systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='sudo journalctl' alias jcn='sudo journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full -f' fi
I just source it in my ~/.bashrc as follows
[ -r "/home/david/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc" ] && \ . /home/david/cnf/bashrc-systemd.inc
Cutting down the typing really helped focus the learning on systemd rather the frustration of typing the lengthy commands over and over.
lengthy commands.... just to do basic stuff... should have been an indicator right off to these guys that their vision of how this should be ordered up lacking. If I have, say, 18 different functions, all of which start with typing "systemctl" command, then perhaps the systemctl program should be broken up into 18 functional units. My biggest problems with Sievert and Poettering is that they seem to not really understand ANY of the concepts which made Unix so successful in the first place.... such as ... 18-faced programs, rather than 18 different programs, each of which does their own little thing extremely well, and which modifying one doesn't impact any of the others. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hey Ruben, What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd. Eliezer On 09/24/2014 07:02 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
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On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional. That is why people like aaron-as-dirk are using abusive language and threatening the kind of violence we associate with terrorists. People who have a rational basis for their argument argue from that basis. People that resort to violence have given up on rational argument. At one time there was, as with Linux itself, those of us in the days before releases with numbers greater than zero the the left of the decimal point might recall, systemd, like KDE4 and like KDE3 before it and like just about every other major, non-trivial piece of software, underwent development pangs. What differentiates FOSS from commercial software is that commercial software can pay for aggressive testing before its exposed to public scrutiny. Even so, mistakes happen, as we have just seen with Apple iOS. The thing is that while Apple iOS 8.0.1 was bungled http://business.financialpost.com/2014/09/26/apple-incs-bungled-ios-8-update... people are going to forget about it in a while despite this seeming to be a systemic problem with Apple software. And like Microsoft, Apple isn't interested in supporting or allowing people to make use of earlier revisions: http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/27/after-ios-8s-shakey-start-apple-blocks-the... FOSS, though, depends on the user community much more than commercial software. Microsoft and Apple and others may release Alpha and Beta version to a select community, but it is a select community that they have control over, and not every gung-ho enthusiast who wants to show off breaking things. This is good and bad; any review of formal testing procedures will make that clear. The FOSS approach is less formal, less methodological and can omit many use-cases, but then again it may also deal with some oddities. The main problem with the FOSS approach to this kind of development and testing, the 'release early, release often', is that the Internet Doesn't Forget. So every blog that complains about problems with the 0.05 revision stays around even though the current is >2.x. It takes a flood of later comments to percolate to the top of the Google search list to drown that out. So yes, there is a lot of "Yes It Used To Be, But We Changed All That" about FOSS development. The complaints about systemd, KDE4 and so much more were all valid once. But to keep harping on about stuff that has long been addressed in an effort to denigrate the present is pathetic and shows how ill informed and emotional the critics are. Especially when ther are always new and interesting bugs to be discussed :-) So, on the one hand we have aaron-as-dirk who has nothing to offer except foaming at the mouth and advocating a terrorist strike on some of the programmers involved with systemd, and on the other we have ms Walsh who runs a heavily non-standard system way out there on the fringe use-case whose complaints are often ignored because her setup is so non-standard. We do the Linux community a great dis-service if we ignore her. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Well Anton, Indeed I do understand them both and the other sides. It can be very frustrating to build a system based on software which was not tested very deeply. It's kind of living on the edge between working and not-working and still offer services. I can just imagine to myself the carpenter going to the near store looking for a hammer and then he finds out a comment near the shelf which states: "These hammers was not tested and might not satisfy your needs or anyone else needs." This is one angle which many open-source projects need to deal with by choice or not. This is one of the reasons that SUSE, REDHAT and couple others invest so much in an enterprise level products. Sometimes in my past I have found myself in mid-air looking for a way to deal with an issue(not only open-source) which no-one, not the developer, vendor or anyone else wanted to help with. And I'm not just talking about funding issues but just the plain will to not get into the old code. Others were just happy with their product and didn't care about the bugs. I am still young and can learn but while I can try my bests to learn and understand new things it's unreal to let a 40+ years old man\women in the IT field to learn everything from 0 every couple years. This is why standards are written and why a change should consider all sort of things. Even now that I am learning to some exam I found myself looking at real questions which used to have the right answer in 2013 but now (2014) another answer would be right. So learning a few month based on current knowledge led to the point which I cannot be sure about the true answer. It's frustrating and it seems that the exam is using the valid answer for 2013 and not 2014, how weird is it? For now the only thing I can offer is to try and help those in a need if I can while one issue for me is funding which I cannot offer. Specifically regarding systemd: I do not like to be forced to first learn for 5-8 years how to manage systems, write scripts and then in a very fast transit to just move into another way of handling things. The employees and the world should consider that like in many areas there is a need for a transit\change period to embed the new ideas. Writing a wiki or a man page will not help with the issue for everybody and not just because of the language. As we all know there is a method of learning that is individually right for each and every user\admin. For some a chat will help in the process even if the wiki is describing everything that is needed. Guidance is one of the things that can help the individual. There are issues about funding all the options and it's much simpler to write a wiki or a man page and redirect every user\admin to it. Again I cannot offer too much about it since I need to eat and sleep under a rooftop which forces me to the realities of life in the humans world on earth. For example I have released in the past couple very complex scripts but got nothing for it.. If I would have gotten even couple cents every time I helped someone with open-source software I am pretty sure it would cover couple month paychecks. So ignoring from some email might be a good idea! All The Bests, Eliezer On 09/28/2014 04:17 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional. That is why people like aaron-as-dirk are using abusive language and threatening the kind of violence we associate with terrorists.
People who have a rational basis for their argument argue from that basis. People that resort to violence have given up on rational argument.
At one time there was, as with Linux itself, those of us in the days before releases with numbers greater than zero the the left of the decimal point might recall, systemd, like KDE4 and like KDE3 before it and like just about every other major, non-trivial piece of software, underwent development pangs. What differentiates FOSS from commercial software is that commercial software can pay for aggressive testing before its exposed to public scrutiny. Even so, mistakes happen, as we have just seen with Apple iOS.
The thing is that while Apple iOS 8.0.1 was bungled http://business.financialpost.com/2014/09/26/apple-incs-bungled-ios-8-update... people are going to forget about it in a while despite this seeming to be a systemic problem with Apple software. And like Microsoft, Apple isn't interested in supporting or allowing people to make use of earlier revisions: http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/27/after-ios-8s-shakey-start-apple-blocks-the...
FOSS, though, depends on the user community much more than commercial software. Microsoft and Apple and others may release Alpha and Beta version to a select community, but it is a select community that they have control over, and not every gung-ho enthusiast who wants to show off breaking things.
This is good and bad; any review of formal testing procedures will make that clear. The FOSS approach is less formal, less methodological and can omit many use-cases, but then again it may also deal with some oddities.
The main problem with the FOSS approach to this kind of development and testing, the 'release early, release often', is that the Internet Doesn't Forget. So every blog that complains about problems with the 0.05 revision stays around even though the current is >2.x. It takes a flood of later comments to percolate to the top of the Google search list to drown that out.
So yes, there is a lot of "Yes It Used To Be, But We Changed All That" about FOSS development. The complaints about systemd, KDE4 and so much more were all valid once. But to keep harping on about stuff that has long been addressed in an effort to denigrate the present is pathetic and shows how ill informed and emotional the critics are.
Especially when ther are always new and interesting bugs to be discussed :-)
So, on the one hand we have aaron-as-dirk who has nothing to offer except foaming at the mouth and advocating a terrorist strike on some of the programmers involved with systemd, and on the other we have ms Walsh who runs a heavily non-standard system way out there on the fringe use-case whose complaints are often ignored because her setup is so non-standard. We do the Linux community a great dis-service if we ignore her.
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On 28/09/14 16:07, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
So ignoring from some email might be a good idea!
+1. Generalisations and reminiscences from those who no longer work in this most noble of professions being among them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 10:07 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Specifically regarding systemd: I do not like to be forced to first learn for 5-8 years how to manage systems, write scripts and then in a very fast transit to just move into another way of handling things.
It depends on HOW you learn. The controversy which this article touches on http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137 is apropos here. I grew up with old UNIX and am in my 60s[1] and not the least bit intimidated by having to learn, learn and learn anew every couple of years. The alternative, as I see it, is atrophy and Altzheimers. <quote> Basically, to learn Unix you learn to understand and apply a small set of key ideas and achieve expertise by expanding both the set of ideas and your ability to apply them - but you learn Windows by working with the functionality available in a specific release. Put a Solaris guy who's never used Linux in front of SuSe 10 with a list of complex tasks and he'll complain bitterly about missing pieces, primitive storage management tools, idiosyncratic patching, misplaced or missing command syntax, and a host of other annoyances - but he won't be either intimidated or deterred; and the job will get done because he knows how the tools he needs should work, and trusts that SuSe's versions do in fact work. </quote> At various times I've considered V6, V7, BSD2.8, BSD4.1, BSD4.2 SUNOS, Solaris, AIX, SCO UNIX, Mandrake, Fedora ... whatever, my baseline reference from which all others deviate. These days its openSuse. And yes, put me in front to a strange system, and its been oddities like HP/UX and DG/UX along the way, and I cope. I may prefer Postfix but I can cope with Sendmail. Some recruiters once asked me how many languages I knew; the answer at that time was well over a dozen, but the point was that I understood how languages worked and had written a couple of interpreters and a compiler. Once you understand how the patterns work, you apply the patterns and principles. Or at least you do if you've been brought up that way. Recently I read a book on the controversy between Creationism and Evolution. To understand Evolution you need to accept Deep Time, but once you understand evolution you can see the application of change and adaptation driven by environmental forces in many settings even over much shorter periods of time. The pattern is there. Science, mathematics, is based on the idea of a few basic principles, patterns if you will, that are replicated and repeated and scale up to build complex systems. The alternative is a "sui generis", each instance on its own, view of things. That means you have to learn each instance by itself. There are no rules, no patterns. Each one is unique. Learning about one does not tell you anything useful about any of the others. Perhaps that is why, with each release of Windows, of MS-Office, there are new training courses for users. It seems crazy to me; but then I look for patterns and I have a reasonable idea of what's going on "under the hood" so have an idea of what capabilities the GUI should offer. My reality is that apart from the Value Added features each vendor/supplier offers as differentiators, such as installation and patch/revision management and packaging, Linux is a lot more standardized than Windows. [1] And no Lynn, I haven't retired; I'm in QA and Audit these days and still have to write test code and spend my days pouring over logs and error reports. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/09/14 16:40, Anton Aylward wrote: these days and
still have to write test code and spend my days pouring over logs and error reports.
Well, you have our sympathy. But please don't take it out on us. Thank you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 10:54 AM, lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 16:40, Anton Aylward wrote: these days and
still have to write test code and spend my days pouring over logs and error reports.
Well, you have our sympathy. But please don't take it out on us. Thank you.
:-) You're just jealous that I've got a job that will keep me indoors in the warm when the weather turns cold :-) -- The Romans made their bridge-builders stand under their bridges. Is there a good reason why the software engineers of today don't have to entrust their lives to their code? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 10:40:06AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 10:07 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Specifically regarding systemd: I do not like to be forced to first learn for 5-8 years how to manage systems, write scripts and then in a very fast transit to just move into another way of handling things.
It depends on HOW you learn. The controversy which this article touches on http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137 is apropos here.
I grew up with old UNIX and am in my 60s[1] and not the least bit intimidated by having to learn, learn and learn anew every couple of years. The alternative, as I see it, is atrophy and Altzheimers.
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks. -- Only the refusal to listen guarantees one against being ensnared by the truth. --Nozick -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks.
Since you keep repeating the same bullshit even after it's been refuted, tell us why anyone should listen to your opinion on this, exactly.
That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
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On Monday 29 Sep 2014 00:24:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks.
Since you keep repeating the same bullshit even after it's been refuted, tell us why anyone should listen to your opinion on this, exactly.
Yet, still more evidence of pot kettle black. if someone doesn;t agree with you then "its bullshit"
That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
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ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 00:24:09 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks.
Since you keep repeating the same bullshit even after it's been refuted, tell us why anyone should listen to your opinion on this, exactly.
Yet, still more evidence of pot kettle black. if someone doesn;t agree with you then "its bullshit"
Answer the question, asshole.
That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
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On 29/09/14 00:59, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
At least it's served to cut the verbosity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Some more education about Systemd: https://access.redhat.com/videos/403833 On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 9:08 AM, lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> wrote:
On 29/09/14 00:59, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
At least it's served to cut the verbosity.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
Some more education about Systemd: https://access.redhat.com/videos/403833
Oh, now we have to waste even more time watching videos to manage this pile of crap... Hint.. if your init system needs fucking VIDEOS for people to understand waht's going on, then guess what...it's too fucking arcane and complicated for what an INIT system is supposed to be doing.
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 9:08 AM, lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> wrote:
On 29/09/14 00:59, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
At least it's served to cut the verbosity.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 06:36:15PM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
Some more education about Systemd: https://access.redhat.com/videos/403833
Oh, now we have to waste even more time watching videos to manage this pile of crap...
that I agree with.
Hint.. if your init system needs fucking VIDEOS for people to understand waht's going on, then guess what...it's too fucking arcane and complicated for what an INIT system is supposed to be doing.
that I don't necessarly agree with. The video part, that I agree with. the complexity ... eh. the scripts that run sysV are masterworks written by very advanced shell script authors. I know shell scripting. It has taken years to learn shell scripting decently. I wish those siystem start up scripts were written in perl. They are hard to understand and they are intertwined with many system files which make them further difficult to understand. that being said, I can replace any of them fairly quickly and i have. The more you work with systems, the more you learn and despite the idioacracy of Anton, there is more to learn that a lifetime worth of time makes available. There is always learning. The is NO FUCKING WAY you can learn what you need from systemd with a video. I'm old, and strangly enough, before systemd we learned to both read and write. Well you can't fucking read a binary log file and you are sure as hell going to have a tough time rewriting systemd (process 1). I don't want to spend the rest of my life chasing this peice of garbage. The problem with systemd is that has simplified NOTHING and it is even more complicated than the shell scripts. And there is nothing you can do to make it work. It is sitting there between you and your box, acting like a trafic cop, and you have to have the mind of a beaurocrat to even begin to uderstand what it is doing. fundmentally, at the end of the day, I screem too often at computers... DO IT BECAUSE I SAID SO... I don't need this thing between me and my hardware. Ruben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
that I don't necessarly agree with. The video part, that I agree with. the complexity ... eh. the scripts that run sysV are masterworks written by very advanced shell script authors. I know shell scripting. It has taken years to learn shell scripting decently. I wish those siystem start up scripts were written in perl. They are hard to understand and they are intertwined with many system files which make them further difficult to understand.
The /etc/init.d/* scripts are FAR more complicated than they need to be. Look at their equivalents on an HP-US or Solaris system, and you'll see how ridiculously simple they can be. They're only the way they are because... frankly, Germans have this culture that promotes over-tweaking the design of everything, to the point that the complexity of the solution is bigger than the problem it was supposed to solve. Case in point... a friend of mine, a couple summers ago, had a modern VW Beetle... overheat problem... needed a new thermostat. On any NON-German car, this would have been a 30- to 60-minute job (friend was enroute from Alabama to Michigan when this occurred, and wasn't carrying a box of tools). But on a GERMAN car, could it be this simple? NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. 5 FUCKING HOURS to change a coolant thermostat. $600 dollars for what should have been a $50 job. Germany lost WW2 for this same reason. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 06:08:04PM +0200, lynn wrote:
On 29/09/14 00:59, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
At least it's served to cut the verbosity.
NMo, it amounts to emotional blackmail by someone who starves for attention. It's like being in a bad marraige and after arguing for 2 months over something vital, you finally throw up your arms and say, fuck this, you are insane about this and I'm not arguing any more. You walk out of the kitchen into the livingroom and your partner ***follows you*** into the other room and shouts "Oh Yeah!!, well I'm not done yet and I have something to tell you!" Hah well... This is not news on mailing lists, and certainly is not news for the free software community. Once someone brands himself as a leftest radical, promotes his love of systemd based on those abussive positions, and pats himself on the back, then there is no reson to continue to talk to him. No amount of "This sucks because it centralizes everything, forces reeducation of every core linux system, and breaks nearly 15 years of personal labor and the combined efforts of thousands of individual coders over the last 30 yearsi etc etc" is going to matter to this bastard. He doesn't give a shit. And neither do the people who implimented this. They don't care about the things you value. They have their own agenda. Their agenda is to have a single wrapper on the OS with a single large code base that is difficult to maintain but which serves to control future development and use. You can slap a GPL3 on this and it just doesn't matter. This is too large of a price to pay for not having to chmod a /dev/ driver, to avoid lsmod and doing an su to mount device, alli of which, I'm not certain was a good die a to change in the first place. How secure can something be if it creates its own device just because someone pops something into the damn usb port?
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Ruben Safir wrote:
At least it's served to cut the verbosity.
NMo, it amounts to emotional blackmail by someone who starves for attention. It's like being in a bad marraige and after arguing for 2 months over something vital, you finally throw up your arms and say, fuck this, you are insane about this and I'm not arguing any more. You walk out of the kitchen into the livingroom and your partner ***follows you*** into the other room and shouts "Oh Yeah!!, well I'm not done yet and I have something to tell you!"
Hah
well... This is not news on mailing lists, and certainly is not news for the free software community. Once someone brands himself as a leftest radical, promotes his love of systemd based on those abussive positions, and pats himself on the back, then there is no reson to continue to talk to him. No amount of "This sucks because it centralizes everything, forces reeducation of every core linux system, and breaks nearly 15 years of personal labor and the combined efforts of thousands of individual coders over the last 30 yearsi etc etc" is going to matter to this bastard. He doesn't give a shit. And neither do the people who implimented this. They don't care about the things you value. They have their own agenda. Their agenda is to have a single wrapper on the OS with a single large code base that is difficult to maintain but which serves to control future development and use. You can slap a GPL3 on this and it just doesn't matter.
Only 15 years? Try 40.
This is too large of a price to pay for not having to chmod a/dev/ driver, to avoid lsmod and doing an su to mount device, alli of which, I'm not certain was a good die a to change in the first place. How secure can something be if it creates its own device just because someone pops something into the damn usb port?
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Ruben Safir wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 06:08:04PM +0200, lynn wrote:
On 29/09/14 00:59, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
Ah, good, its now come down to personal attacks. That means you no longer have anything rational to say and so resort to ad-hominem attacks.
At least it's served to cut the verbosity.
NMo, it amounts to emotional blackmail by someone who starves for attention. It's like being in a bad marraige and after arguing for 2 months over something vital, you finally throw up your arms and say, fuck this, you are insane about this and I'm not arguing any more. You walk out of the kitchen into the livingroom and your partner ***follows you*** into the other room and shouts "Oh Yeah!!, well I'm not done yet and I have something to tell you!"
Hah
well... This is not news on mailing lists, and certainly is not news for the free software community. Once someone brands himself as a leftest radical, promotes his love of systemd based on those abussive positions, and pats himself on the back, then there is no reson to continue to talk to him. No amount of "This sucks because it centralizes everything, forces reeducation of every core linux system, and breaks nearly 15 years of personal labor and the combined efforts of thousands of individual coders over the last 30 yearsi etc etc" is going to matter to this bastard. He doesn't give a shit. And neither do the people who implimented this. They don't care about the things you value. They have their own agenda. Their agenda is to have a single wrapper on the OS with a single large code base that is difficult to maintain but which serves to control future development and use. You can slap a GPL3 on this and it just doesn't matter.
This is too large of a price to pay for not having to chmod a /dev/ driver, to avoid lsmod and doing an su to mount device, alli of which, I'm not certain was a good die a to change in the first place. How secure can something be if it creates its own device just because someone pops something into the damn usb port?
Exactly... device is mounted.... no root privileges needed... device contains files owned by root:root, with setuid bit.... congratulations, system is thoroughly hacked. And systemd peopl say this sort of thing is goood, why exactly? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 29/09/14 00:44, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 10:40:06AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 10:07 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Specifically regarding systemd: I do not like to be forced to first learn for 5-8 years how to manage systems, write scripts and then in a very fast transit to just move into another way of handling things.
It depends on HOW you learn. The controversy which this article touches on http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137 is apropos here.
I grew up with old UNIX and am in my 60s[1] and not the least bit intimidated by having to learn, learn and learn anew every couple of years. The alternative, as I see it, is atrophy and Altzheimers.
Yeah - time for you to go into /dev/null
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On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 06:40 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Why thank you; I'm glad you noticed. Reality is I'd have made a great many things if I had decided to apply myself in those fields. The same could be said of many of us. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:40 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Why thank you; I'm glad you noticed.
So you're a Marxist, too. Why is thist not surprising. If supporting Marxism puts you on "the right side of history" then I suggest you go to Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, or any other country which was abused by the Marxist governments, and which now are having to play "catch up" after decades of not just mere stagnation, but actual destruction of their societies, infrastructure, and commercial structure, industrial base, and civil and criminal law which were all optimized for some pie-in-the-sky idiocy which any 5-year-old child can tell you is fundamentally flawed.
Reality is I'd have made a great many things if I had decided to apply myself in those fields.
The same could be said of many of us.
The fact that you are an ardent supporter of Marxism is all I need to know about why you won't acknowledge even the tiniest of flaws in systemd, and why every discussion ends with you making all sorts of grand "handwave the arguments I don't like away" gestures, to derail the discussion from being about the flaws of systemd, and instead trying to make it about whether the person making the argument is "qualified" to even speak or not. Since you are so delusional, one thing is for certain .. YOU are most unqualified to speak on this subject, because you are so emotionally invested in "out with what is tested and has worked for decades, in with the pie-in-the-sky-thing-which-nobody-has-ever- demonstrated-to-actually-improve-more-than-it-breaks" followed by "well, you just haven't read umpteem thousands of pages of rhetoric" One thing is for sure... activists are always big one writing multi-hundred page screeds, and then screaming "you didn't read what I [or someone else] wrote" when presented with a question which should be easy to answer in 3 sentences or less. I'm sick of sloppy thinkers such as you. work, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 22:26:06 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:40 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Why thank you; I'm glad you noticed.
So you're a Marxist, too. Why is thist not surprising.
If supporting Marxism puts you on "the right side of history" then I suggest you go to Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, or any other country which was abused by the Marxist governments, and which now are having to play "catch up" after decades of not just mere stagnation, but actual destruction of their societies, infrastructure, and commercial structure, industrial base, and civil and criminal law which were all optimized for some pie-in-the-sky idiocy which any 5-year-old child can tell you is fundamentally flawed.
So now you are saying the "old ways" are bad and new ways are good?? Make up your mind...
Reality is I'd have made a great many things if I had decided to apply myself in those fields.
The same could be said of many of us.
The fact that you are an ardent supporter of Marxism is all I need to know about why you won't acknowledge even the tiniest of flaws in systemd, and why every discussion ends with you making all sorts of grand "handwave the arguments I don't like away" gestures, to derail the discussion from being about the flaws of systemd, and instead trying to make it about whether the person making the argument is "qualified" to even speak or not.
I'd trust Antons experience long before i'd even considers yours.
Since you are so delusional, one thing is for certain .. YOU are most unqualified to speak on this subject, because you are so emotionally invested in "out with what is tested and has worked for decades, in with the pie-in-the-sky-thing-which-nobody-has-ever- demonstrated-to-actually-improve-more-than-it-breaks" followed by "well, you just haven't read umpteem thousands of pages of rhetoric"
One thing is for sure... activists are always big one writing multi-hundred page screeds, and then screaming "you didn't read what I [or someone else] wrote" when presented with a question which should be easy to answer in 3 sentences or less.
Looks like you are on your way to a multi-hundred page screeds before you abruptly finished - see your next sentence
I'm sick of sloppy thinkers such as you.
you're the only sloppy thinker as evidenced by your emotional tirades
work,
yea, go to work and use your so called expert knowledge and get "init" working on your system and stop bothering everyone with your childish shit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 22:26:06 Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 06:40 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Why thank you; I'm glad you noticed.
So you're a Marxist, too. Why is thist not surprising.
If supporting Marxism puts you on "the right side of history" then I suggest you go to Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, or any other country which was abused by the Marxist governments, and which now are having to play "catch up" after decades of not just mere stagnation, but actual destruction of their societies, infrastructure, and commercial structure, industrial base, and civil and criminal law which were all optimized for some pie-in-the-sky idiocy which any 5-year-old child can tell you is fundamentally flawed.
So now you are saying the "old ways" are bad and new ways are good?? Make up your mind...
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new" SystemD is the same. And it will eventually be tossed out for the same reasons that Marxism is being tossed out... because the fundamental assumptions that are crucial to the design are and never were true in the first place.
Reality is I'd have made a great many things if I had decided to apply myself in those fields.
The same could be said of many of us.
The fact that you are an ardent supporter of Marxism is all I need to know about why you won't acknowledge even the tiniest of flaws in systemd, and why every discussion ends with you making all sorts of grand "handwave the arguments I don't like away" gestures, to derail the discussion from being about the flaws of systemd, and instead trying to make it about whether the person making the argument is "qualified" to even speak or not.
I'd trust Antons experience long before i'd even considers yours.
Since you are so delusional, one thing is for certain .. YOU are most unqualified to speak on this subject, because you are so emotionally invested in "out with what is tested and has worked for decades, in with the pie-in-the-sky-thing-which-nobody-has-ever- demonstrated-to-actually-improve-more-than-it-breaks" followed by "well, you just haven't read umpteem thousands of pages of rhetoric"
One thing is for sure... activists are always big one writing multi-hundred page screeds, and then screaming "you didn't read what I [or someone else] wrote" when presented with a question which should be easy to answer in 3 sentences or less.
Looks like you are on your way to a multi-hundred page screeds before you abruptly finished - see your next sentence
I'm sick of sloppy thinkers such as you.
you're the only sloppy thinker as evidenced by your emotional tirades
I don't suffer fools lightly. Keep annoying me with your rude idiocy and aggression, and I will make you wish you had never heard of me.
work,
yea, go to work and use your so called expert knowledge and get "init" working on your system and stop bothering everyone with your childish shit.
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On 09/29/2014 06:43 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new"
Ah. Now I understand why you young whipper-snappers are calling the old fogies like me "Marxists". Its really about simple, unadulterated ignorance. I'm forced to conclude that you too are one of the types of American who like by myths and have never bothered reading the original material, the 'sources'. That goes both for the works of Marx and for the sources of systemd. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 06:43 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new"
Ah. Now I understand why you young whipper-snappers are calling the old fogies like me "Marxists".
You're the one who said that the comparison to a Marxist was a compliment. I merely noted all of the emotional & personality traits and disordered thinking that go hand in hand with believing that stupid clap-trap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 06:43 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new"
Ah. Now I understand why you young whipper-snappers are calling the old fogies like me "Marxists".
Its really about simple, unadulterated ignorance. I'm forced to conclude that you too are one of the types of American who like by myths and have never bothered reading the original material, the 'sources'.
Actually, I read The Communist Manifesto when I was in 8th grade... cover to cover. I've also read Capital. Marx's biggest failing was confusing aristocratic legal systems with free enterprise in a free society, when in fact, aristocratic social-class systems are precisely the opposite of a free society, and thus, not a part of free enterprise at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/09/14 01:03, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 06:43 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new"
Ah. Now I understand why you young whipper-snappers are calling the old fogies like me "Marxists".
Mr. Aylward? An old fogie? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
lynn wrote:
On 30/09/14 01:03, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/29/2014 06:43 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Marxism was a case of "new must be better because it's new"
Ah. Now I understand why you young whipper-snappers are calling the old fogies like me "Marxists".
Mr. Aylward? An old fogie?
There's nho fool like an old fool. And old Marxists are the biggest fools of all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ping... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
We actually just migrated a server over from BSD to Debian. UFS2 is slow and performs poorly not to mention that it's easy to lose data if you have a power outage, and ZFS was overkill for our purposes and used too much CPU time. There is no inbetween alternative, and actually Pottering talked about how BSD can panic just by jiggling a USB cable; not sure if that's fixed or not. BSD seems kind of like a dying OS to me. I see no point in using it whatsoever. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:53:14 -0700 "Sam M." <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
BSD seems kind of like a dying OS to me. I see no point in using it whatsoever. To avoid systemd? :) BTW, I thing we're going offtopic.
Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
We actually just migrated a server over from BSD to Debian. UFS2 is slow and performs poorly not to mention that it's easy to lose data if you have a power outage, and ZFS was overkill for our purposes and used too much CPU time. There is no inbetween alternative, and actually Pottering talked about how BSD can panic just by jiggling a USB cable; not sure if that's fixed or not. BSD seems kind of like a dying OS to me. I see no point in using it whatsoever.
If you kill the alternatives with this shit-headed systemd, that will definitely breathe new life into BSD. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 22:26:06 Dirk Gently wrote:
you're the only sloppy thinker as evidenced by your emotional tirades
Ah yes.. the old ... say stupid shit until you get called out for it, and then accuse the other person of having unreasonable anger. Sorry, asshole, you're not going to get away with that shit with me. Keep it coming asshole, and I'll keep dissecting what you say to show everyone all of the dishonesty you're spewing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Interesting. I just posted on how the systemd supporters convenient amnesia about previously defeated arguments which they advocates is EXACTLY like the convenient amnesia Marxists have about all of their arguments which have been previously defeated. This is characteristic of Borderline Personality Disordered individuals, which is quite severe form of emotional instability and mental illness. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 22:16:56 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Interesting. I just posted on how the systemd supporters convenient amnesia about previously defeated arguments which they advocates is EXACTLY like the convenient amnesia Marxists have about all of their arguments which have been previously defeated.
This is characteristic of Borderline Personality Disordered individuals, which is quite severe form of emotional instability and mental illness. you've just looked into the mirror haven't you???? glad you've finally realised your problem.
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ianseeks wrote:
On Sunday 28 Sep 2014 22:16:56 Dirk Gently wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it is purely emotional.
Only on your end. You would make a great Marxist.
Interesting. I just posted on how the systemd supporters convenient amnesia about previously defeated arguments which they advocates is EXACTLY like the convenient amnesia Marxists have about all of their arguments which have been previously defeated.
This is characteristic of Borderline Personality Disordered individuals, which is quite severe form of emotional instability and mental illness.
you've just looked into the mirror haven't you???? glad you've finally realised your problem.
Thanks for the typical BPD response. No, cupcake ... your behavior reminds me of several of my former girlfriends, which I never understood until coming across a description of the behavioral traits and communications tactics that these emotionally infantile people use. if you don't like it, then I suggest that you STOP BEHAVING like a person with a disordered personality. Acknowledging truth when it is written by others would be a good start, but you would sooner die than to admit that someone on your "black" list has a point worth considering. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/09/14 14:44, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Hey Ruben,
What is the issue?
Brilliant. I get to have another plug;) Please read the thread. There have been specific references made to issues. At least one has a year standing unresolved bug report. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 05:17 PM, lynn wrote:
Please read the thread. There have been specific references made to issues. At least one has a year standing unresolved bug report. Reference me... I was reading the whole thread until some depth but didn't noticed a specific bug or any specific case which it affects. The only one I have seen is having different /usr mount which is a violation of FHS if I'm not wrong.
This is indeed an issue which was talked about since long ago and indeed this is something the systemd forces on the system. It's not really a bug but a violation of a specific standard which many do not care about for some reason. Eliezer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/09/14 16:35, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
didn't noticed a specific bug or any specific case which it affects. The only one I have seen is having different /usr mount which is a violation of FHS if I'm not wrong.
The bug is about systemd and Kerberos, so I doubt whether anyone on this list will have the foggiest. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-09-28 16:44, lynn wrote:
The bug is about systemd and Kerberos, so I doubt whether anyone on this list will have the foggiest.
It it related to this? https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i386/openSUSE/13.1/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html#i... 5.3. Samba Version 4.1 Samba version 4.1 shipped with openSUSE 13.1 does not include support to operate as an Active Directory style domain controller. This functionality is currently disabled, as it lacks integration with system-wide MIT Kerberos. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 28/09/14 17:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-28 16:44, lynn wrote:
The bug is about systemd and Kerberos, so I doubt whether anyone on this list will have the foggiest.
It it related to this?
https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i386/openSUSE/13.1/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html#i...
5.3. Samba Version 4.1
Samba version 4.1 shipped with openSUSE 13.1 does not include support to operate as an Active Directory style domain controller. This functionality is currently disabled, as it lacks integration with system-wide MIT Kerberos.
Thanks. No. It's nothing to do with that. That statement is the usual lack of understanding we have come to expect of anything to do with AD, samba and SLES/openSUSE. The Samba4 Heimdal implementation integrates perfectly with Samba4 KDC under the 13.1 MIT packages. What does not integrate is systemd with Kerberos or the SLES developer responsible for it. Hence, Samba4 as an AD package on eithet SLES or openSUSE is never going to happen in even the mid future. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
lynn wrote:
On 28/09/14 17:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-09-28 16:44, lynn wrote:
The bug is about systemd and Kerberos, so I doubt whether anyone on this list will have the foggiest.
It it related to this?
https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i386/openSUSE/13.1/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html#i...
5.3. Samba Version 4.1
Samba version 4.1 shipped with openSUSE 13.1 does not include support to operate as an Active Directory style domain controller. This functionality is currently disabled, as it lacks integration with system-wide MIT Kerberos.
Thanks. No. It's nothing to do with that. That statement is the usual lack of understanding we have come to expect of anything to do with AD, samba and SLES/openSUSE. The Samba4 Heimdal implementation integrates perfectly with Samba4 KDC under the 13.1 MIT packages. What does not integrate is systemd with Kerberos or the SLES developer responsible for it. Hence, Samba4 as an AD package on eithet SLES or openSUSE is never going to happen in even the mid future.
SystemD could literally catch the CPU on fire, and it's supportes would be loathe to acknowledge such an obvious fact. Because it's not SysVInit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
On 09/28/2014 05:17 PM, lynn wrote:
Please read the thread. There have been specific references made to issues. At least one has a year standing unresolved bug report. Reference me... I was reading the whole thread until some depth but didn't noticed a specific bug or any specific case which it affects. The only one I have seen is having different /usr mount which is a violation of FHS if I'm not wrong.
This is indeed an issue which was talked about since long ago and indeed this is something the systemd forces on the system.
It's not really a bug but a violation of a specific standard which many do not care about for some reason.
Eliezer
This is the other problem with SystemD proponents. If a problem isn't mentioned explicitly in the preceding message, you act like it was NEVER, EVER, EVER mentioned... EVER. There was a certain German politician, who wrote a book, and noted how he would have ... discussions... with leftists, defeat their arguments, and the very next day, the next time they would talk, the leftists would act as if the arguments -- which has just been defeated the previous day -- were still sound and valid arguments. That's a fundamentally dishonest way to have any sort of discussion, let alone a debate about policy. Either remember and acknowledge what the fuck has been said, and where systemd has been found utterly lacking, or just stop posting. Why is there a burden on all of the rest of us to CONTINUALLY rewrite the long laundry list of problems with systemd, rather than YOU just remember what the fuck the objections are. http://ewontfix.com/14/ http://ewontfix.com/15/ If you can't address EACH AND EVERYONE of those issues, then consider systemd to be fundamentally flawed, and not worthy of the support of ANY *HONEST* person. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Hey Ruben,
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
Eliezer
On 09/24/2014 07:02 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
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On 09/28/2014 07:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
+1.. Just take in account that it's not just a init system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
On 09/28/2014 07:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
+1..
Just take in account that it's not just a init system.
An why isn't it? *That's* the core problem. Why is it an interdependent jumble of binaries gobbling up daemons (udev, logging, login, ...)
From a purists view, sysvinit is also waay too much for PID 1. See http://ewontfix.com/14/ (the code, from a general viewpoint).
Gentoo's openrc has it down nicely. It's init is a mere 40,472 Bytes in size and links to only to libc.so (and linux-vdso.so and ld-linux*.so. The sysv-alike rc is: $ ls -l sbin/rc lib/librc.so.1 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 51616 Mar 20 2014 lib/librc.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 119000 Mar 20 2014 sbin/rc* So, Gentoo has split off 'PID 1' (init) from the 'rc' which runs the stuff in /etc/init.d. -dnh -- Connection reset by beer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 10:20 AM, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
On 09/28/2014 07:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation. +1..
Just take in account that it's not just a init system. An why isn't it? *That's* the core problem. Why is it an interdependent jumble of binaries gobbling up daemons (udev, logging,
Exactly! Where does it end? When will systemd assimilate the kernel itself? Then X11? Then the desktop environment? Might as well save the heartburn and switch right now to Windows! One daemon to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them... When will the systemd proponents address the concerns that they are ignoring most, if not all, of the basic UNIX/Linux tenets? This concern has been brought up here many times, but I don't recall a rational explanation, just name-calling and claims that it "boots faster". If indeed it does boot faster, where's the return-on-investment cost analysis? 1. Small is beautiful 2. Make each program do one thing well 3. Build a prototype as soon as possible 4. Choose portability over efficiency 5. Store ASCII data in flat files 6. Use software leverage to your advantage 7. Use shell scripts to increase leverage and portability 8. Avoid captive user interfaces 9. Make very program a filter Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote on 2014-09-28 13:00 (UTC-0700):
When will the systemd proponents address the concerns that they are ignoring most, if not all, of the basic UNIX/Linux tenets?
Apparently you missed it, e.g.: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht... -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 01:42 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote on 2014-09-28 13:00 (UTC-0700):
When will the systemd proponents address the concerns that they are ignoring most, if not all, of the basic UNIX/Linux tenets? Apparently you missed it, e.g.: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
Well, yes, I did miss that, but it tells me nothing anyway. For example, in answer to the question if they ever wondered, "why all the resistance and polarity", he says: "The answer to that question is yes, yes we have and yes we will continue to do so since resistance and polarity provides with the valuable information amongst other things if the implementation is bad and alternative approach is better ( which often reveals itself at the same time those friction take place )." (sic) He also says in regard to comments about integration with the Linux kernel, "...we dont care about their opinion on this matter." He also says about the opposition, "We welcome and embrace them and hope they evolve to the point they become competing solution..." What other large monolithic company uses the phrase "embrace"? He then cites a list of Linux guidelines and asks where systemd is falling short, where it's obvious that it fails most of them. This all reminds me of the old quote, "No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session." Most times the best course to take is to do nothing. I still don't know why systemd is needed. What was so badly broken that we need, basically, a new operating system? I said it before, when something doesn't make sense, follow the money... Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote on 2014-09-28 15:04 (UTC-0700):
This all reminds me of the old quote, "No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session." Most times the best course to take is to do nothing.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Those of us who objected, or were unaware, when the decision was made to adopt systemd, did too little to stop the decision from being made. The power to overcome resistance to change was stronger.
I still don't know why systemd is needed.
Not enough resources to overcome the inertia. The barn door's been open and the fences down far too long for reversal to be an option, even if that was what the majority of doers wanted. The doers get what the doers want. The others get to watch. Their complaints mostly fall on deaf ears.
What was so badly broken that we need, basically, a new operating system?
If systemd bothers you so much, maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, then work harder to prevent that from happening. Maybe you could collect enough complainers, turn them into doers, and fork 11.4 or 12.1 into a systemd-free distro. With a big enough group, maybe the money to make it viable could materialize. Good luck with anything else. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
[..] maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
*THAT* IS THE PROBLEM YOU IDIOT! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:14 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
[..] maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
*THAT* IS THE PROBLEM YOU IDIOT!
Not exactly. It's a done deal on openSUSE. If you don't like it, your only practical escape is for you to jump to another distro where it didn't happen yet, hoping the yet doesn't come to pass, and maybe putting some effort into preventing it coming to pass. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:14 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
[..] maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
*THAT* IS THE PROBLEM YOU IDIOT!
Not exactly. It's a done deal on openSUSE.
And it's STILL A PROBLEM. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 00:31:34 Dirk Gently wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:14 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
[..] maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^
*THAT* IS THE PROBLEM YOU IDIOT!
Not exactly. It's a done deal on openSUSE.
And it's STILL A PROBLEM.
No its not if you go an install a system that doesn't use systemd. its time you did that and let go of the anger... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ianseeks wrote:
On Monday 29 Sep 2014 00:31:34 Dirk Gently wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:14 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
[..] maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^
*THAT* IS THE PROBLEM YOU IDIOT!
Not exactly. It's a done deal on openSUSE.
And it's STILL A PROBLEM.
No its not
Yes, it is a problem, you ignorant, lying asshole. If it wasn't a problem, Lynn wouldn't be complaining about it. Seh's been having to wrestle with this problem for over 18 months...if there was a good solution, she wouldn't still be having problems with it. What part of common sense fucking escapes that tiny ball of mud in your head which you imagine to be a brain? What in the fuck is your major malfunction? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 03:47 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
This all reminds me of the old quote, "No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session." Most times the best course to take is to do nothing. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Those of us who objected, or were unaware, when the decision was made to adopt systemd, did too little to stop the decision from being made. The power to overcome resistance to change was stronger.
This is the problem, isn't it? The activists get their way because they are persistent, mission-driven, and maybe conflicted by outside interests and thus have goals outside of the best interests of the rest of us. They have the patience to eke out many little compromises that, when taken in aggregate later on, achieve their original goal. Meanwhile, the rest of society is just too busy getting along to notice the mess until it's too late. Things will eventually sort out, but after how much pain? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:47 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
This all reminds me of the old quote, "No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session." Most times the best course to take is to do nothing. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Those of us who objected, or were unaware, when the decision was made to adopt systemd, did too little to stop the decision from being made. The power to overcome resistance to change was stronger.
This is the problem, isn't it? The activists get their way because they are persistent, mission-driven, and maybe conflicted by outside interests and thus have goals outside of the best interests of the rest of us. They have the patience to eke out many little compromises that, when taken in aggregate later on, achieve their original goal. Meanwhile, the rest of society is just too busy getting along to notice the mess until it's too late. Things will eventually sort out, but after how much pain?
Especially when they are getting paid off to perform their sabotage, while the rest of us still have to support ourselves, and can't devote 8-12 hours per day to undoing all of Sieverrt & Poetterings & Co's sabotage as quickly as they are creating it.
Regards, Lew
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On 09/28/2014 03:47 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
If systemd bothers you so much, maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, then work harder to prevent that from happening.
I've actually been thinking about BSD for a public-facing server application. My fiirst experience with Linux was with Slackware and loading from 39 3.5" floppies. I remember having to compose my own X11 modelines. Those were the days! I know, you could justly tell me to not let the door hit me in the ass on my way out, but I'm not ready to leave just yet. Look at how much fun we have with this this mailing list? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 09/28/2014 03:47 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
If systemd bothers you so much, maybe its time for you to switch to BSD, PCLinuxOS, Slackware or Gentoo, before they too make the choice to make systemd the only init option, then work harder to prevent that from happening.
I've actually been thinking about BSD for a public-facing server application. My fiirst experience with Linux was with Slackware and loading from 39 3.5" floppies. I remember having to compose my own X11 modelines. Those were the days! I know, you could justly tell me to not let the door hit me in the ass on my way out, but I'm not ready to leave just yet. Look at how much fun we have with this this mailing list?
At this point, the ONLY thing keeping me with openSUSE is YaST... Literally nothing else. At all.
Regards, Lew
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Dirk Gently wrote on 2014-09-28 22:06 (UTC-0400):
At this point, the ONLY thing keeping me with openSUSE is YaST...
Literally nothing else.
At all.
Aw, come on. Surely you're having fun on this mailing list berating people able to recognize any positive attribute that to them may be evident in systemd. Everybody here knows you're not going to accomplish anything useful by it, so fun has to be why you continue. Oh, and inertia has to be a third reason. You'd have to put forth more effort than keeping a mailing list flooded with foul language to replace openSUSE with something else. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote on 2014-09-28 22:06 (UTC-0400):
At this point, the ONLY thing keeping me with openSUSE is YaST...
Literally nothing else.
At all.
Aw, come on. Surely you're having fun on this mailing list berating people able to recognize any positive attribute that to them may be evident in
Not really. The frustrationn from dealing with close-minded fools who think they know everything is exceeded only by being bombarded with indirect fire while having only direct fire (i.e. line of sight) weapons to return fire with.
systemd. Everybody here knows you're not going to accomplish anything useful by it, so fun has to be why you continue.
At this point, it's merely making a written record of having pointed out to them just exactly to what extent, and in what ways they are complete and utter retards, so that, if potential employers do google searches, the record will be plain that they are defending this pile of shit systemd fiasco.
Oh, and inertia has to be a third reason. You'd have to put forth more effort than keeping a mailing list flooded with foul language to replace openSUSE with something else.
I rarely use such language. It is reserved exclusively for those who really earn it.
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On 29/09/14 04:06, Dirk Gently wrote:
the ONLY thing keeping me with openSUSE is YaST...
Literally nothing else.
At all.
Only YaST? You should try the opensuse,org mailing list too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote on 2014-09-28 13:00 (UTC-0700):
When will the systemd proponents address the concerns that they are ignoring most, if not all, of the basic UNIX/Linux tenets?
Apparently you missed it, e.g.: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
Why should I be so masochistic to read a systemd fanboi dominated ML?
From that mail, let's check:
| 1. Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces. Fail. | 2. Clarity is better than cleverness. Fail. | 3. Design programs to be connected to other programs. Ok, pass. | 4. Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines. Fail. | 5. Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must. Major fail. | 6. Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that | nothing else will do. Fail | 7. Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and | debugging easier. Major fail. | 8. Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity. No opinion. | 9. Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust. Fail. | 10. In interface design, always do the least surprising thing. Major fail. | 11. When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing. Fail. | 12. When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible. Fail. | 13. Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time. Major fail. | 14. Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can. Fail. | 15. Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it. Fail. | 16. Distrust all claims for ~one true way~. Major fail. | 17. Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think. Major fail. 1:1:15 out of 17? Good job, or is it? ... -dnh -- To resist the influence of others, knowledge of one's self is most important. -- Teal'C, Stargate SG-1, 9x14 - Stronghold -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:07 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
Why should I be so masochistic to read a systemd fanboi dominated ML?
1-intel (know thy enemy) 2-coping with evolution 3-opportunity to discover and possibly thwart new evils before implementation -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
David Haller wrote on 2014-09-29 02:07 (UTC+0200):
On Sun, 28 Sep 2014, Felix Miata wrote:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht...
Why should I be so masochistic to read a systemd fanboi dominated ML?
1-intel (know thy enemy)
2-coping with evolution
3-opportunity to discover and possibly thwart new evils before implementation
On this, I agree... although personally, I don't have the stomach for it. It's like listening in on a cabal of Marxists, talking about how great and wonderful things will be once Marxism is establish, even though we can see the utterly ruinous results which have happened everywhere that it's been tried in the past (Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Paris Commune, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechloslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Moldova, all of the *khan countries, as well as all of the ongoing disasters-in-progress such as Cuba, Venezuela (OMGZ!!! Omniscient Government bureaucrats failed to be omniscient and forgot to SET ASIDE ANY FACTORIES TO MAKE TOILET PAPER -- NOW WE HAZ NOTHING TO WIPE OUR BUTTS WITH!!11!!eleventy!!!), North Korea, etc. It's simpler to just shoot them, and put the rest of the world out of the misery created by such immoral, closet-dictator assholes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 04:00 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
claims that it "boots faster". If indeed it does boot faster, where's the return-on-investment cost analysis?
q.v. "boots faster" was never an objective; it was something that emerged from rationalizing the boot process. If you want to be picky about it, Linda has also 'rationalized' the boot process in a quite different way. She has made the point that you can boot without using initrd, and that too 'boots faster'. In fact if you read item #2 at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations/ you'll see that removing initrd is valid method of speeding up boot regardless of use of sysvinit or systemd. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- Much of the wisdom of one age, is the folly of the next. -- Charles Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 04:00 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
claims that it "boots faster". If indeed it does boot faster, where's the return-on-investment cost analysis?
q.v. "boots faster" was never an objective; it was something that emerged from rationalizing the boot process.
Bullfucking shit.. That was the ORIGINAL JUSTIFICATION -- under the idea that "booting will be faster if we allow initialization programs to be run in parallel rather than sequentially, and detecting as soon as all of an initialization function's prerequisite requirements are met...." So, be a grown up, and stop lying. This is beginning to sound just like the KDE 4.0 bullshit... And we all know how that turned out -- AS PREDICTED, KDE 4 wasn't really ready for prime time until the 4.10 release, as predicted, in the time-frame of 2-3 years on down the road.
If you want to be picky about it, Linda has also 'rationalized' the boot process in a quite different way. She has made the point that you can boot without using initrd, and that too 'boots faster'.
It's not a rationalization. The whole reason for compressing initrd was to make sure it would fit on a 3.5" floppy. When's the last time you even had a system with a 3.5" floppy installed? When I can't even go to the store and purchase a SOLID STATE USB MEMORY STICK that small, the rationalization for initrd is over. O. V. E. R.
In fact if you read item #2 at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations/ you'll see that removing initrd is valid method of speeding up boot regardless of use of sysvinit or systemd.
Getting rid of initrd would eliminate a lot of potential hangups, like having to re-mount root, having a compressed kernel which needs to be un-compressed to load and run, etc. Both the time and the need for initrd is long gone. MAYBE if we started running into issues with not being able to fit boot-up on a CD... or heaven forbid, not fit on a DVD, then there might be a reason to revive it... But as of right now, all it really does is add complications and pitfalls without adding any benefits at all anymore. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dirk Gently wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 04:00 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
claims that it "boots faster". If indeed it does boot faster, where's the return-on-investment cost analysis?
q.v. "boots faster" was never an objective; it was something that emerged from rationalizing the boot process.
[*Cow-doodoo*].. That was the ORIGINAL JUSTIFICATION -- under the idea that "booting will be faster if we allow initialization programs to be run in parallel rather than sequentially, and detecting as soon as all of an initialization function's prerequisite requirements are met...."
I have to agree with Dirk here... that was TOTALLY the justification -- the 1st justification given. When I compared it to an optimized systemV boot on my system, I had under 30 seconds -- 8-12 of which is kernel, 7-10 of file system mounting, and 7-10 of service starting. That put it under any systemd system starting up services from a cold system, no SSD, and no pre-loading which only worked on limited file systems.
If you want to be picky about it, Linda has also 'rationalized' the boot process in a quite different way. She has made the point that you can boot without using initrd, and that too 'boots faster'.
--- Rationalized??? How do you see basic boot as a rationalization?
In fact if you read item #2 at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations/ you'll see that removing initrd is valid method of speeding up boot regardless of use of sysvinit or systemd.
Getting rid of initrd would eliminate a lot of potential hangups, like having to re-mount root, having a compressed kernel which needs to be un-compressed to load and run, etc.
Both the time and the need for initrd is long gone.
Ditto on that. Other unix companies -- 15 years ago had custom kernel build scripts to build kernels for their customers automatically so it would boot quickly for their hardware and not have a bunch of excess modules loaded in. Sorry have really just not had time for most of this discussion... but I saw some Bpoop.... and had to reply... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
On 09/28/2014 07:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
+1..
Just take in account that it's not just a init system.
Then that's a fundamental design flaw right there. Do one thing, and do it correctly. SystemD tries to do everything, and does most of it quite marginally. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/28/2014 12:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Hey Ruben,
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
Indeed. And wasn't it you, aaron-as-dirk, who was, just a few days ago, claiming that systemd lacked documentation? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 12:18 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:
Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Hey Ruben,
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
How about, an init system should not require 200 pages of documentation.
Indeed. And wasn't it you, aaron-as-dirk, who was, just a few days ago, claiming that systemd lacked documentation?
The manpages are wholly inadequate. The other 200 pages don't matter. Why? Because whatever documentation isn't available in "barely able to get a root prompt" mode, then it cannot be considered to be available. When I'm on a military base out in the middle of nowhere, without even an internet connection, let alone other Linux machines around, all I have is what I can read in man. If it's not in man, it's not documented. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 03:44:56PM +0300, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
Hey Ruben,
What is the issue? If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you. Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.
My problem is that I don't want systemd filtering every keystroke I type, and No, they don't actually accept sysV scripts that I wrote to do under the /etc/rc.d/ subdirectory to be booted with the system. They control routing, DNS, named. httpd and mysql. They have more or less worked for 17 years and now they DON'T I couldn't figure out why. I wasn't paying attention to the changes. After all, the init system can be often adjusted and changed and I often have to make adjustments. But this time they wouldn't take. In additon, I started noticed other things, like the stupid entries in mount, the difficulty with widgets that run under wmaker that failed to now work, the inability to shutdown systems with the shutdown -h now command. thena all these weird processes started to show up, like crack monkey (http://www.crackmonkey.com) at my door in the ps and top commands. Finally I've come to understand all this degredation of system usability and resources. Now I understand we are being truly screwed, royally screwed! end systemd now. Then take your cloud computing with it. Ruben PS - Shana Tova!
Eliezer
On 09/24/2014 07:02 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Yes there is. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 7:02 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
Is there any way of ditching systemd and putting sysv back into the system scripts
ruben
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- Regards, Andrei Dziahel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (42)
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Andreas Mahel -
Andrei Borzenkov -
Andrei Dziahel -
Anton Aylward -
Billie Walsh -
Bob Williams -
Bruce Ferrell -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Darin Perusich -
Darryl Gregorash -
David C. Rankin -
David Haller -
Dirk Gently -
Doug -
Eliezer Croitoru -
ellanios82 -
Felix Miata -
grantksupport＠operamail.com -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Walter Finckh -
Hans Witvliet -
Henne Vogelsang -
ianseeks -
jdd -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Lew Wolfgang -
Linda Walsh -
Luciano Mannucci -
lynn -
Marcus Meissner -
michael norman -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Ricardo Chung -
Robin Klitscher -
Ruben Safir -
S S -
Sam M.
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Timothy Butterworth -
Tom Wekell