Nineteen days after I queried Suse support about a problem ,I received an answer, or rather no answer. My question seems to have been outside the scope of the support (my laptop not shutting down properly) something which can be debatable since SuSe support seems to run very lean these days, but surely it shouldn't take nineteen days to confirm that an answer would not be forthcoming. Of course we have our popular mailing list to try and solve our Suse distro problems, but corporate SuSE does not seem to pay much attention to supporting the private individual that bought its distro, even for the limited support time given. Anyway, just my thoughts Josef
Josef Demergis schrieb:
Nineteen days after I queried Suse support about a problem ,I received an answer, or rather no answer. My question seems to have been outside the scope of the support (my laptop not shutting down properly) something which can be debatable since SuSe support seems to run very lean these days, but surely it shouldn't take nineteen days to confirm that an answer would not be forthcoming. Of course we have our popular mailing list to try and solve our Suse distro problems, but corporate SuSE does not seem to pay much attention to supporting the private individual that bought its distro, even for the limited support time given. Anyway, just my thoughts
Josef
I share the very same experience with TOSHIBA support. They are too stupid to manage to AT LEAST REPLY in the time of two entire weeks. Disgusting! -- *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ =Oliver@home= *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤ I http://www.bmw-roadster.de/Friends/Olli/olli.html I I http://www.bmw-roadster.de/Friends/friends.html I I http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VGAP-93 I I http://home.t-online.de/home/spacecraft.portal I
Telek0ma iBBMS - soon back online +49.4503.TRSi1/TRSi2 <<<
On Friday 14 June 2002 21:01, Josef Demergis wrote:
Nineteen days after I queried Suse support about a problem ,I received an answer, or rather no answer. My question seems to have been outside the scope of the support (my laptop not shutting down properly) something which can be debatable since SuSe support seems to run very lean these days, but surely it shouldn't take nineteen days to confirm that an answer would not be forthcoming. Of course we have our popular mailing list to try and solve our Suse distro problems, but corporate SuSE does not seem to pay much attention to supporting the private individual that bought its distro, even for the limited support time given. Anyway, just my thoughts
Josef
I have also had frustrations with SuSE support, but at the same time imagine what a big job it is to figure out how to get all possible configurations to work with all possible hardware, I mean, this must be one of those exponential problems that give the SuSE people fits. I am very glad to have had all sorts of help from people on this list, even at the times when I was on learning overload and was too overwhelmed to RTFM, and was asking stupid questions. That all being said, I do feel that the scope of the installation support is a bit narrow for the personal edition. I mean, I know I am only paying forty dollars American for it, but as an average user who basically word processes, uses email, surfs the web, and listens to music, I do not understand why getting sound to work is outside the scope of the installation support. I am perfectly willing to research and read on the web, and post to this list, and I even went to a Linux installfest here in Northern California, but even with the help of authors, people on the web, and a harried guy at the installfest who spent a couple of hours with me, I could not get sound to work. Sound should be part of a basic installation for a user of the Personal Edition. I mean, I did my homework, and even called the SuSE office in Oakland CA and the guy there assured me my sound card was supported, but months later, no sound, and all support queries rebuffed. That is what is the most frustrating, I mean the installation support is kind of like a carrot dangling in front of us beginners, and when we do all the legwork and get everything else working and only ask ONE question of the support team, it IS frustrating to be told that we are asking a question just outside the very finicky scope of support questions. I would say it would be better to be told that you are basically on your own up front rather than to be given false hopes on the rather impressive list of features on the outside of the boxed set. And no, I am not cranky just because I didn't get any lizard stickers with 8.0. The truth is, I am doing my best to "Have a lot of fun." Neal McDermott Don't you know, That it's true, That for me, And for you, The world is a Gecko.
I have also had frustrations with SuSE support, but at the same time imagine what a big job it is to figure out how to get all possible configurations to work with all possible hardware, I mean, this must be one of those exponential problems that give the SuSE people fits.
I am very glad to have had all sorts of help from people on this list, even at the times when I was on learning overload and was too overwhelmed to RTFM, and was asking stupid questions.
That all being said, I do feel that the scope of the installation support is a bit narrow for the personal edition. I mean, I know I am only paying forty dollars American for it, but as an average user who basically word processes, uses email, surfs the web, and listens to music, I do not understand why getting sound to work is outside the scope of the installation support.
I am perfectly willing to research and read on the web, and post to this list, and I even went to a Linux installfest here in Northern California, but even with the help of authors, people on the web, and a harried guy at the installfest who spent a couple of hours with me, I could not get sound to work.
I'm in NCal, which user group tried to help? Ok, what was you sound card again? yast2 fails? Which version of the distro? Has it ever worked? Matt
On Saturday, 15 June 2002 07:45, neal mcdermott wrote:
I do not understand why getting sound to work is outside the scope of the installation support.
I could not get sound to work.
Sound should be part of a basic installation for a user of the Personal Edition.
Neal, Your message struck several chords in me, because I too was on that same boat. For nearly two years, I could not get audio (SuSE 6.4, 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3). I had sound (the .wav files which play with various actions), but could not play CD-audio, though it worked fine with Win98 and Mandrake 8.1. Then, one day, I learned what to do to have SuSE 7.3 to play CD-audio. So simple! I don't know the particulars of your system, but if you post them, maybe (just maybe!) the solution to my case could apply to yours. -- Regards, gr, in /usually/ sunny, balmy Florida's Suncoast.
Well, if it's so simple, why don't you just post it? At 22:04 06/15/2002 -0400, gilson redrick wrote:
On Saturday, 15 June 2002 07:45, neal mcdermott wrote:
I do not understand why getting sound to work is outside the scope of the installation support.
I could not get sound to work.
Sound should be part of a basic installation for a user of the Personal Edition.
Neal,
Your message struck several chords in me, because I too was on that same boat. For nearly two years, I could not get audio (SuSE 6.4, 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3). I had sound (the .wav files which play with various actions), but could not play CD-audio, though it worked fine with Win98 and Mandrake 8.1. Then, one day, I learned what to do to have SuSE 7.3 to play CD-audio. So simple!
I don't know the particulars of your system, but if you post them, maybe (just maybe!) the solution to my case could apply to yours.
-- Regards, gr, in /usually/ sunny, balmy Florida's Suncoast.
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Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com
I noticed the same thing: either it is outside the scope of the support (most of my questions) or the response takes as long as you describe and is still not resolving my issue at all. I thought buying the CD's would give me the benefit of support, whish is usefull for a newbie like me on Linux. When Linux reaches the ease of installation of Windows, this becomes less important, but I think Linux is not there yet. Still I love the stability, and I am learning. On Saturday 15 June 2002 05:01, Josef Demergis wrote:
Nineteen days after I queried Suse support about a problem ,I received an answer, or rather no answer. My question seems to have been outside the scope of the support (my laptop not shutting down properly) something which can be debatable since SuSe support seems to run very lean these days, but surely it shouldn't take nineteen days to confirm that an answer would not be forthcoming. Of course we have our popular mailing list to try and solve our Suse distro problems, but corporate SuSE does not seem to pay much attention to supporting the private individual that bought its distro, even for the limited support time given. Anyway, just my thoughts
Josef
-- Frits J. Wüthrich (Sent with Kmail)
On Saturday 15 June 2002 19:27, Frits Wuthrich wrote: - I noticed the same thing: either it is outside the scope of the support - (most - of my questions) or the response takes as long as you describe and - is still - not resolving my issue at all. I thought buying the CD's would - give me the - benefit of support, whish is usefull for a newbie like me on - Linux. Ditto :-( I do have to agree however, that the list provides much of the support that we don't get from SuSE. THere are a lot of people puting free time and effort into helping us solve our problems and think they should get more recognition by us as well as SuSE for the good work they do. The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. (Not that I have anything against those that download SuSE for free. More power to yah.) If SuSE doesn't treat business customers this way, then we shouldn't be treated this way either. If on the other hand business customers are treated this way, SuSE won't last long. Brian
If you want help from experienced users then join irc.efnet.org then #suse The channel is not active all the time since most users are busy working but if you post your question and wait, you may get a good answer to your problems. At 08:03 PM 6/15/2002 +0700, you wrote:
On Saturday 15 June 2002 19:27, Frits Wuthrich wrote: - I noticed the same thing: either it is outside the scope of the support - (most - of my questions) or the response takes as long as you describe and - is still - not resolving my issue at all. I thought buying the CD's would - give me the - benefit of support, whish is usefull for a newbie like me on - Linux.
Ditto :-( I do have to agree however, that the list provides much of the support that we don't get from SuSE. THere are a lot of people puting free time and effort into helping us solve our problems and think they should get more recognition by us as well as SuSE for the good work they do.
The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. (Not that I have anything against those that download SuSE for free. More power to yah.) If SuSE doesn't treat business customers this way, then we shouldn't be treated this way either. If on the other hand business customers are treated this way, SuSE won't last long.
Brian
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The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. (Not that I have anything against those that download SuSE for free. More power to yah.) If SuSE doesn't treat business customers this way, then we shouldn't be treated this way either. If on the other hand business customers are treated this way, SuSE won't last long.
The problem is that it's "installation" support...not configuration support. And watching support work when I was at SuSE I can say that 8-10 times the question would be asked " Is SuSE installed?" Answer "Yes" " And your question is" " How do I get this to work " and getting things such as printers to work isn't an install support question. The support that comes with the box set is install support .. getting it installed..which doesn't mean getting it configured. I agree they could be a bit quicker to say that the question that a user has asked doesn't fall into this install realm..but the don't and they are human so we forgive them for now being able to parse the 1000's of emails a day that they get as quickly as we would like. Which is why this list is such a resource that couldn't be lived without. :) -- -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
And if you buy other OS software don't you have buy/pay for additional support
after installation ? Yes, of course. Are they typically more expensive than
SuSE ? Yes, of course. I advise everyone to get to know others who run Linux
and so have a network of support, as this is the flavour of the culture at
hand.
/Dee
Ben Rosenberg
The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. (Not that I have anything against those that download SuSE for free. More power to yah.) If SuSE doesn't treat business customers this way, then we shouldn't be treated this way either. If on the other hand business customers are treated this way, SuSE won't last long.
The problem is that it's "installation" support...not configuration support. And watching support work when I was at SuSE I can say that 8-10 times the question would be asked " Is SuSE installed?" Answer "Yes" " And your question is" " How do I get this to work " and getting things such as printers to work isn't an install support question. The support that comes with the box set is install support .. getting it installed..which doesn't mean getting it configured. I agree they could be a bit quicker to say that the question that a user has asked doesn't fall into this install realm..but the don't and they are human so we forgive them for now being able to parse the 1000's of emails a day that they get as quickly as we would like. Which is why this list is such a resource that couldn't be lived without. :)
--
-=Ben
On Saturday 15 June 2002 13:00, W.D. McKinney wrote:
And if you buy other OS software don't you have buy/pay for additional support after installation ? Yes, of course. Are they typically more expensive than SuSE ? Yes, of course. I advise everyone to get to know others who run Linux and so have a network of support, as this is the flavour of the culture at hand.
/Dee
Well I know with Apple you get 90 days Tech Support (phone only and only certain apple products) and 1 year hardware support. This is easily expanded to 3 years for both hardware and phone support for between $149 and $349. Outside of that its $49 per incident. Every company has to set limits on what it can support, for companies that make Sound Cards then its going to be the Sound Card running in supported Windows versions, for other peripherial manufacturers its the peripherials they make. So with OS's its just the OS and basic things they made themselves. Installation support seems fair considering the size of SuSE. Matt
* W.D. McKinney (deem@wdm.com) [020615 13:04]: ::And if you buy other OS software don't you have buy/pay for additional support ::after installation ? Yes, of course. Are they typically more expensive than ::SuSE ? Yes, of course. I advise everyone to get to know others who run Linux ::and so have a network of support, as this is the flavour of the culture at ::hand. :: Dee, Yep. Your right the "others" just tell you to reinstall or use your recovery disk when a problem occurs. And if you have a hefty problem then they charge you $180 for 3 problems...on top of what the OS/addon software cost. By comparison..this is cake. And heck I wouldn't still be on this list after so many years if I didn't have some weird sense of repaying the debt to those that helped me years ago. :) Cheers! -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
Hi all Anyone have any luck with a Delkin USB MultiMediaCard Reader? I'm running SuSE 7.3 and my machine has USB ports though I've never had reason until now to use these ports.I'd like to use it for the card that my camera came with.Any help will be greatly appreciated. TIA rob
On Saturday 15 June 2002 12:49 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. -------------snip----------------------------- The problem is that it's "installation" support...not configuration support. And watching support work when I was at SuSE I can say that 8-10 times the question would be asked " Is SuSE installed?" Answer "Yes" " And your question is" " How do I get this to work " and getting things such as printers to work isn't an install support question. The support that comes with the box set is install support .. getting it installed..which doesn't mean getting it configured.
I believe I read that in the information I recieved w/ my SuSE7.2 Pro package. Didn't seem particularly useful but it's pretty standard for the software world. Perhaps a new lable should be printed for software boxes (not just SuSE, ) "We'll help you get it onto your hard drive but don't expect it to be usable" -- dh I've been awake: 6 hours 53 minutes Suse Linux 7.2 professional kernel 2.4.17, xFree86 4.2.0, kde 2.2.2
* dh (ob1@yifan.net) [020615 13:46]: ::On Saturday 15 June 2002 12:49 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote: ::> > The only thing is, that we are paying customers, not free ::> > downloaders and should get something for the money that we paid. ::-------------snip----------------------------- ::> The problem is that it's "installation" support...not configuration ::> support. And watching support work when I was at SuSE I can say that ::> 8-10 times the question would be asked " Is SuSE installed?" Answer ::> "Yes" " And your question is" " How do I get this to work " and ::> getting things such as printers to work isn't an install support ::> question. The support that comes with the box set is install support ::> .. getting it installed..which doesn't mean getting it configured. :: ::I believe I read that in the information I recieved w/ my SuSE7.2 Pro ::package. Didn't seem particularly useful but it's pretty standard for ::the software world. :: ::Perhaps a new lable should be printed for software boxes (not just ::SuSE, ) ::"We'll help you get it onto your hard drive but don't expect it to be ::usable" It should read. "We'll give you the best system possible with as easy of an install as we can, but if your a newbie and think that it should just work without knowing anything...go buy a Mac" but even then something would require some work. My wife still has to boot into OS9 because her "supported" external USB CDR won't work in OSX. Computers suck most of the time..and are not VCR's so they require work. I've install 100's of Windows boxes with all types of drivers for tons of different pieces of hardware and it's not all that easy. It's "easier" if you've been working with it for a while. Hence I have very little trouble with Solaris, Linux or Windows. If you come from the Windows world and expect Linux to be the same...forget it. Remeber what Yoda said " You must unlearn what you have learned " or you won't be a jedi ;) I've got at least 35 co-workers by now who have 8.0 working and love it. They have printers, scanners and all sorts of stuff hooked to these boxes...but then again they knew the difference between OS installation and configuration. Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug* -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
On Saturday 15 June 2002 01:56 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote: --------------snip--------------------
Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug*
I'm not sure you are really "sorry", but I do believe you are entitled to your beliefs. (Just don't expect any post-install support for them ;-) Please note the smilie, I don't intend a flame war, I respect your opinions even if I disagree. -- dh I've been awake: 7 hours 48 minutes Suse Linux 7.2 professional kernel 2.4.17, xFree86 4.2.0, kde 2.2.2
* dh (ob1@yifan.net) [020615 14:42]: ::On Saturday 15 June 2002 01:56 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote: ::--------------snip-------------------- ::> Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just ::> work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me ::> having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug* :: ::I'm not sure you are really "sorry", but I do believe you are entitled ::to your beliefs. (Just don't expect any post-install support for them ::;-) Thanks :) I actually never called SuSE support. I researched if my modem was supported at the time and how to do the ppp setup and pretty much joined the SuSE list about 2 weeks after buying my first copy of SuSE. There were more then enough people here to answer my stupid questions. ;) ::Please note the smilie, I don't intend a flame war, I respect your ::opinions even if I disagree. I know. You are one of the respectful ones who didn't directly email me whining about how I feel about the lazy attitude of most computer users that they should have everything handed to them. Most people think computers are appliances or this is Star Trek and they are Scotty.." Computer?..computer? hmmmph..a keyboard how quaint." *laugh* -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
I've purchased two different versions of SuSE Linux, SuSE 7.2
Professional and SuSE 7.3 Professional. In my experience,
SuSE support is not very useful.
When dealing with SuSE crashing when a PCI based parallel
port card was installed and getting errors from the kernel when
PCI based serial port cards were installed, SuSE support offered
no help. I learned more from the Redhat web site...
When attempting to install qmail instead of postfix, sendmail, etc,
their software configuration tool would continue to complain that
no supported email tool was installed each time it was run. SuSE
offered to fix the software configuration tool to accept the presence
of qmail if I paid them money to do so. Decided it was easier to
learn Postfix than to deal with SuSE...
The good thing about SuSE Linux is that it installs on most of my
hardware without problems. Their online update works quite well.
Corel Linux and standard Debian also have good online update tools.
Chris Shaker
cjshaker@shaker-net.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Rosenberg"
* dh (ob1@yifan.net) [020615 14:42]: ::On Saturday 15 June 2002 01:56 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote: ::--------------snip-------------------- ::> Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just ::> work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me ::> having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug* :: ::I'm not sure you are really "sorry", but I do believe you are entitled ::to your beliefs. (Just don't expect any post-install support for them ::;-)
Thanks :)
I actually never called SuSE support. I researched if my modem was supported at the time and how to do the ppp setup and pretty much joined the SuSE list about 2 weeks after buying my first copy of SuSE. There were more then enough people here to answer my stupid questions. ;)
::Please note the smilie, I don't intend a flame war, I respect your ::opinions even if I disagree.
I know. You are one of the respectful ones who didn't directly email me whining about how I feel about the lazy attitude of most computer users that they should have everything handed to them. Most people think computers are appliances or this is Star Trek and they are Scotty.." Computer?..computer? hmmmph..a keyboard how quaint."
*laugh*
-=Ben
--=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
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* Christopher John Shaker (cjshaker@shaker-net.com) [020618 14:59]:
When dealing with SuSE crashing when a PCI based parallel port card was installed and getting errors from the kernel when PCI based serial port cards were installed, SuSE support offered no help. I learned more from the Redhat web site...
That's not related to installation, why should it be covered by installation support? I don't understand why people always have so much trouble this.
When attempting to install qmail instead of postfix, sendmail, etc, their software configuration tool would continue to complain that no supported email tool was installed each time it was run.
Because there wasn't. We don't support qmail, neither does Redhat. Can we kill this thread now? We're going on four days and about 40 posts. Or do people need a couple more days to complain about how isupport wouldn't help them with all of the weird hardware they picked up at a garage sale in Taiwan? -- -ckm
You may not sympathize, However if Linux wants to be more than just a niche market. These type of loose ends need to be tried up so that the learning curve accelerated to new users. Regards pab -----Original Message----- From: dh [mailto:ob1@yifan.net] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 5:41 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSe support not up to it! On Saturday 15 June 2002 01:56 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote: --------------snip--------------------
Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug*
I'm not sure you are really "sorry", but I do believe you are entitled to your beliefs. (Just don't expect any post-install support for them ;-) Please note the smilie, I don't intend a flame war, I respect your opinions even if I disagree. -- dh I've been awake: 7 hours 48 minutes Suse Linux 7.2 professional kernel 2.4.17, xFree86 4.2.0, kde 2.2.2 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com
* peter banks (peter_banks@charter.net) [020615 17:54]: ::You may not sympathize, However if Linux wants to be more than just a niche ::market. These type of loose ends need to be tried up so that the learning ::curve accelerated to new users. Nope it needs pre-installation on OEM machines in stores. And it needs OEM manufacturer support for that HP printer, nVidia video card .etc..etc. I will repeat this for all those who are deaf and didn't hear it the first time... If you call Microsoft and tell them you just installed one of their operating systems yourself and can't get your HP printer to work they will say call HP. They don't care about you and they won't help you. The answer these days will be " Please put in your restore disk " because they can't even give you an installable version of the OS...and these rescue disks wipe it all out and install back to factory. But you better know damn well that Microsoft charged you for a license one way or the other. Do not BLAME Linux for how OEM's support their own bloody frelling products. You don't have to put .dll's and other such files in the correct place because companies like HP wrote nice installers...Microsoft did not and it sure as hell isn't part of Windows. Windows hasn't succeeded on the desktop because it's so damn easy to install from scratch. It's succeeded because besides Mac it was/is the only game in town in Fry's, Best Buy and other such stores. I would say 2-10 people even install Windows from scratch...and when they do upgrade it fries things and they carry their PC's back into where they bought it to get it fixed. And in the process they loose their data. I've see this over and over again. The learning curve for Windows isn't that bloody small. It's just that if you have a question at work you can whine to the over worked IT or your co-worker who has more experience. And if all this Windows software is so damn easy to use..why don't they take those eye sore books out of the bookstores...100's of titles about how to run this software, configure windows and don't forget all the dummies books. My original statement stands. Computers are not easy..and until we have some serious UI development instead of " We must add new features so we can force upgrades ". Dude I was being nice to you before and trying to be lighthearted..but please take that David Coursey pundit niche OS crap out the door. -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
To which all say, Amen. Ben has hit it right on the head. I run into this same situation every day, especially when our IT 'geniuses" can't fix the problem and folks come knocking on my door with " I understand your a Linux [windows] guru ( which I'm not ); can you help me . . . . . Way to state it Ben! dave Ben Rosenberg wrote:
* peter banks (peter_banks@charter.net) [020615 17:54]: ::You may not sympathize, However if Linux wants to be more than just a niche ::market. These type of loose ends need to be tried up so that the learning ::curve accelerated to new users.
Nope it needs pre-installation on OEM machines in stores. And it needs OEM manufacturer support for that HP printer, nVidia video card .etc..etc.
I will repeat this for all those who are deaf and didn't hear it the first time...
If you call Microsoft and tell them you just installed one of their operating systems yourself and can't get your HP printer to work they will say call HP. They don't care about you and they won't help you. The answer these days will be " Please put in your restore disk " because they can't even give you an installable version of the OS...and these rescue disks wipe it all out and install back to factory. But you better know damn well that Microsoft charged you for a license one way or the other.
Do not BLAME Linux for how OEM's support their own bloody frelling products. You don't have to put .dll's and other such files in the correct place because companies like HP wrote nice installers...Microsoft did not and it sure as hell isn't part of Windows. Windows hasn't succeeded on the desktop because it's so damn easy to install from scratch. It's succeeded because besides Mac it was/is the only game in town in Fry's, Best Buy and other such stores. I would say 2-10 people even install Windows from scratch...and when they do upgrade it fries things and they carry their PC's back into where they bought it to get it fixed. And in the process they loose their data. I've see this over and over again.
The learning curve for Windows isn't that bloody small. It's just that if you have a question at work you can whine to the over worked IT or your co-worker who has more experience. And if all this Windows software is so damn easy to use..why don't they take those eye sore books out of the bookstores...100's of titles about how to run this software, configure windows and don't forget all the dummies books. My original statement stands. Computers are not easy..and until we have some serious UI development instead of " We must add new features so we can force upgrades ".
Dude I was being nice to you before and trying to be lighthearted..but please take that David Coursey pundit niche OS crap out the door.
-=Ben
--=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--
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-- David C. Johanson Linux Counter # 116410 Powered by SuSE Linux 7.1 People who behold a phenomenon will often extend their thinking beyond it; people who merely hear about the phenomenon will not be moved to think at all. -- Goethe
Certainly what you say has some merit. However as part of OEM support for Linux, There needs to be resource kits like you can buy from Microsoft for each of their Oses that will provide in-depth information on internal to the Os etc. Linux does not yet have parity on this level of doc yet. Even doing something can be very painful, as I found out last week when trying to figure out how repair a Reiser file system. None web sites had this process documented. Linux is still in Oral Tradition stage and needs to develop a written heritage where resolving the same problems do not need to break same ground over and over and over. As almost an after thought. I suppect this process of change that this would cause a drastic culture shift. One that would not be so Geek friendly. Your Humble Dos Neophyte pab -----Original Message----- From: Ben Rosenberg [mailto:ben@whack.org] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:12 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSe support not up to it! * peter banks (peter_banks@charter.net) [020615 17:54]: ::You may not sympathize, However if Linux wants to be more than just a niche ::market. These type of loose ends need to be tried up so that the learning ::curve accelerated to new users. Nope it needs pre-installation on OEM machines in stores. And it needs OEM manufacturer support for that HP printer, nVidia video card .etc..etc. I will repeat this for all those who are deaf and didn't hear it the first time... If you call Microsoft and tell them you just installed one of their operating systems yourself and can't get your HP printer to work they will say call HP. They don't care about you and they won't help you. The answer these days will be " Please put in your restore disk " because they can't even give you an installable version of the OS...and these rescue disks wipe it all out and install back to factory. But you better know damn well that Microsoft charged you for a license one way or the other. Do not BLAME Linux for how OEM's support their own bloody frelling products. You don't have to put .dll's and other such files in the correct place because companies like HP wrote nice installers...Microsoft did not and it sure as hell isn't part of Windows. Windows hasn't succeeded on the desktop because it's so damn easy to install from scratch. It's succeeded because besides Mac it was/is the only game in town in Fry's, Best Buy and other such stores. I would say 2-10 people even install Windows from scratch...and when they do upgrade it fries things and they carry their PC's back into where they bought it to get it fixed. And in the process they loose their data. I've see this over and over again. The learning curve for Windows isn't that bloody small. It's just that if you have a question at work you can whine to the over worked IT or your co-worker who has more experience. And if all this Windows software is so damn easy to use..why don't they take those eye sore books out of the bookstores...100's of titles about how to run this software, configure windows and don't forget all the dummies books. My original statement stands. Computers are not easy..and until we have some serious UI development instead of " We must add new features so we can force upgrades ". Dude I was being nice to you before and trying to be lighthearted..but please take that David Coursey pundit niche OS crap out the door. -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====-- -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com
* peter banks (peter_banks@charter.net) [020615 18:50]: ::Certainly what you say has some merit. However as part of OEM support for ::Linux, There needs to be resource kits like you can buy from Microsoft for ::each of their Oses that will provide in-depth information on internal to the ::Os etc. Ok..well. Please let me know where I can buy a book that tells me how to copy the SAM db off a running PDC. You can't because it can't be done. How about this internals question: what happens when your vga.sys get corrupted and the machine goes into contious reboots because it can't even display a login prompt because the GDI is built into the kernel? Answer: reinstall because you can't even get into the box w/ a network connection to copy it back. If you really want me to do your research for you about the true internals of the LINUX OS and all of the GNU software that makes it up I will. My going rate for system admin work is $35 per hour. ::Linux does not yet have parity on this level of doc yet. Even doing ::something can be very painful, as I found out last week when trying to ::figure out how repair a Reiser file system. None web sites had this process ::documented. http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/reiserfsck8.html The above site will tell you how to rebuild the reiserFS filesystem or to repair it. It's also the man page for the filesystem check. The have books that have all the man pages in them. I would equate man pages to resource kits. They tell you pretty much what you need to know. ::Linux is still in Oral Tradition stage and needs to develop a ::written heritage where resolving the same problems do not need to break same ::ground over and over and over. Yep, your right. But my oral tradition is much like the rest of the LINUX communities..I speak internet. LINUX was born in and of the internet. I found the above information in a simple google search. Which has the last 25 years or so of usenet news posts and many other sites with so much information it's not funny. The arguement that LINUX is well documented went out about 3 years ago. After that people started in with the mantra " there's so much documentation out there it's hard to sift though. " If it's not one bitch it's another. It kind of like how pundit's bitched that all the LINUX distributions were so different and splintering off..and as soon as Unitied LINUX came about and they said it would have a common file structure and code base. They failed to pay attention to it and called it YaLD (Yet Another LINUX distribution) when in fact it will be the foundation of 4 LINUX distributions to start and the foundation of all who join and want some commonality to them following the LSB and such. So you won't have to find a "SuSE RPM" .. just one that follows the United LINUX spec. ::As almost an after thought. I suppect this process of change that this would ::cause a drastic culture shift. One that would not be so Geek friendly. LINUX can be geek friendly and good for the common user. What will cause a grand shift in culture is when we start to expect more out of people and start to educate them better so that they can go out into the world and make it on their own steam and find out what to if something happens. We have a culture of " I'm sure someone will come save me soon..because the answer hasn't smacked me in the face yet. " LINUX has more then enough documentation for it if one takes the time to just look for it. SuSE gives 5 books to start one on this journey but Microsoft gives a thin pamphlet with the rest of the documentation on the CD. Not much help if your system can't be started. And quite often the simple things keep it from starting. At least if I forget my root passwd I can boot off the CD and a simple mount later and an edited file I'm off and running again. If you forget your admin passwd it's a reinstall for ya..or a Linux boot disk with NTFS support. ;) I will say this about the arguement of "real work" that people have brought up. I have used StarOffice for quite sometime to write resumes in and to exchange documents with co-workers who are on WindowsNT/MSOffice. And they read my documents just fine. I have little or no trouble with headhunters reading my resume..understanding it is a bit different. ;) I have absolutely no trouble getting my work done on a daily basis using LINUX on my desktop at work. I haven't had a complaint yet that anyone couldn't read my docmentation on our Sun clusters or that StarOffice produced ugly documents. Your arguement is ill concieved and very funny..well my wife the Mac person thought it was funny since she's installed and configured SuSE PPC by herself and only switched to OSX because of Photoshop, but even then she has ircII, screen and many other GNU pkgs that she compiled herself without any help from me. People learn what they want and find the answers to them for some it's easier then for others. The docs are out there..and in some cases so close they can bite your nose off. I just don't buy that LINUX is SO hard it can't be used as a desktop. I realize it has some length to go so that one doesn't have to resort to cmdlines..but thanks god that it can so I don't have to take up the mantra of " just reinstall ". If it's ever that bad. I do believe I would find something else. BTW. I've procmailed the subject to the thread out now because it's a futile and basically silly discussion that was maybe relevant a few years ago..but not much anymore. I won't even see this response. Cheers and Happy Computing. -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- Tell me what you believe..I tell you what you should see. -DP --=====-----=====--
Alle 03:50, domenica 16 giugno 2002, peter banks ha scritto:
Certainly what you say has some merit. However as part of OEM support for Linux, There needs to be resource kits like you can buy from Microsoft for each of their Oses that will provide in-depth information on internal to the Os etc.
What?? Microsoft will provide in-depth information on their OS internals? Since when? I have never used the online help in Windows. The reason is simple: it was often misleading, incomplete and unuseful.
Linux does not yet have parity on this level of doc yet.
It has a better documentation, already.
Even doing something can be very painful, as I found out last week when trying to figure out how repair a Reiser file system. None web sites had this process documented.
Have you tried the online help system of your os? praise@xearo7:~> apropos reiserfs reiserfsck (8) - check a Linux Reiserfs file system mkreiserfs (8) - create a Linux ReiserFS file system resize_reiserfs (8) - Reiserfs filesystem resizer debugreiserfs (8) - (sconosciuto) Uhm... what about man reiserfsck ?
Linux is still in Oral Tradition stage and needs to develop a written heritage where resolving the same problems do not need to break same ground over and over and over.
The Oral Tradition is something that hopefully will never go away in Linux. A smart guy answering is much better than documetation. However, the oral tradition exists in Windows world as well.
As almost an after thought. I suppect this process of change that this would cause a drastic culture shift. One that would not be so Geek friendly.
There is no need for a culture shift. Linux is free, and you can treat it at the level you want... from kernel developer, to system administrator, to simple office user. Praise
On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:12:04PM -0700, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Nope it needs pre-installation on OEM machines in stores. And it needs OEM manufacturer support for that HP printer, nVidia video card .etc..etc.
I will repeat this for all those who are deaf and didn't hear it the first time...
If you call Microsoft and tell them you just installed one of their operating systems yourself and can't get your HP printer to work they will say call HP. They don't care about you and they won't help you. The answer these days will be " Please put in your restore disk " because they can't even give you an installable version of the OS...and these rescue disks wipe it all out and install back to factory. But you better know damn well that Microsoft charged you for a license one way or the other.
Do not BLAME Linux for how OEM's support their own bloody frelling products. You don't have to put .dll's and other such files in the correct place because companies like HP wrote nice installers...Microsoft did not and it sure as hell isn't part of Windows. Windows hasn't succeeded on the desktop because it's so damn easy to install from scratch. It's succeeded because besides Mac it was/is the only game in town in Fry's, Best Buy and other such stores. I would say 2-10 people even install Windows from scratch...and when they do upgrade it fries things and they carry their PC's back into where they bought it to get it fixed. And in the process they loose their data. I've see this over and over again.
The learning curve for Windows isn't that bloody small. It's just that if you have a question at work you can whine to the over worked IT or your co-worker who has more experience. And if all this Windows software is so damn easy to use..why don't they take those eye sore books out of the bookstores...100's of titles about how to run this software, configure windows and don't forget all the dummies books. My original statement stands. Computers are not easy..and until we have some serious UI development instead of " We must add new features so we can force upgrades ".
Dude I was being nice to you before and trying to be lighthearted..but please take that David Coursey pundit niche OS crap out the door.
I agree completely. You nailed it, Ben. And this also goes for Macs. Behind the pretty interface is same ugly machinery that is not so hidden in Linux. Computers are infinitely configurable. It is this property that makes them at the same time so useful and so complex. Best Regards, Keith -- LPIC-2, MCSE, N+ Right behind you, I see the millions Got spam? Get spastic http://spastic.sourceforge.net
The issue here is not the support Level of Os Distribution. The issue here is what does it take to make Linux more than "an also ran". Sure, For us Geeks, Linux is Fun! figuring out a problem is quite for filling. But that is different than using it for my Desktop where I have to do real work and send out resumes in a format that recruiters will be able to read. In order for Linux to take over the Desktop, Linux OS distributions are going to have develop the same level of support expertise that Microsoft has developed within the OEM / IT / support communities. I really don't see this happening in the Linux Community. I do however, see Linux as a real neat niche market doing the type things people used to buy Suns and HPUX machine. Just my two cents worth pab -----Original Message----- From: Keith Winston [mailto:kwinston@twmi.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:56 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSe support not up to it! On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:12:04PM -0700, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Nope it needs pre-installation on OEM machines in stores. And it needs OEM manufacturer support for that HP printer, nVidia video card .etc..etc.
I will repeat this for all those who are deaf and didn't hear it the first time...
If you call Microsoft and tell them you just installed one of their operating systems yourself and can't get your HP printer to work they will say call HP. They don't care about you and they won't help you. The answer these days will be " Please put in your restore disk " because they can't even give you an installable version of the OS...and these rescue disks wipe it all out and install back to factory. But you better know damn well that Microsoft charged you for a license one way or the other.
Do not BLAME Linux for how OEM's support their own bloody frelling products. You don't have to put .dll's and other such files in the correct place because companies like HP wrote nice installers...Microsoft did not and it sure as hell isn't part of Windows. Windows hasn't succeeded on the desktop because it's so damn easy to install from scratch. It's succeeded because besides Mac it was/is the only game in town in Fry's, Best Buy and other such stores. I would say 2-10 people even install Windows from scratch...and when they do upgrade it fries things and they carry their PC's back into where they bought it to get it fixed. And in the process they loose their data. I've see this over and over again.
The learning curve for Windows isn't that bloody small. It's just that if you have a question at work you can whine to the over worked IT or your co-worker who has more experience. And if all this Windows software is so damn easy to use..why don't they take those eye sore books out of the bookstores...100's of titles about how to run this software, configure windows and don't forget all the dummies books. My original statement stands. Computers are not easy..and until we have some serious UI development instead of " We must add new features so we can force upgrades ".
Dude I was being nice to you before and trying to be lighthearted..but please take that David Coursey pundit niche OS crap out the door.
I agree completely. You nailed it, Ben. And this also goes for Macs. Behind the pretty interface is same ugly machinery that is not so hidden in Linux. Computers are infinitely configurable. It is this property that makes them at the same time so useful and so complex. Best Regards, Keith -- LPIC-2, MCSE, N+ Right behind you, I see the millions Got spam? Get spastic http://spastic.sourceforge.net -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com
On Sun, 2002-06-16 at 04:39, peter banks wrote:
The issue here is not the support Level of Os Distribution. The issue here is what does it take to make Linux more than "an also ran". Sure, For us Geeks, Linux is Fun! figuring out a problem is quite for filling. But that is different than using it for my Desktop where I have to do real work and send out resumes in a format that recruiters will be able to read. In order for Linux to take over the Desktop, Linux OS distributions are going to have develop the same level of support expertise that Microsoft has developed within the OEM / IT / support communities. I really don't see this happening in the Linux Community. I do however, see Linux as a real neat niche market doing the type things people used to buy Suns and HPUX machine.
If may lay my little egg here... My perception is that Linux is slowly but surely creeping into the desktop/'normal user' scene. I have been using Linux as my main desktop for more than a year now in a predominantly Windows environmnet. (OK, but I do my own support) Linux has only really started to move into the Office desktop over the last year or so, and I think it will still take at least 5 years before you will see a major shift in the industry. Remember, Windows has been the desktop norm for about eight years, and you have the problem that your avarage IT person wants to protect his job and don't want to move out of his comfort zone by learning a new OS. If the time comes when you can buy a Linux support person for 10 a dime (like you can MCSE's), then linux will be as 'supportable' as Windows. But that will still take some time to get there (although I don't think I would like that scenario) And the OEM support is coming. Look at IBM, DELL and Compaq/HP. They are already shipping machines with Linux pre-insalled I think the time will come when Linux will be an 'also ran' OS. Although I think it will still take a few years. The biggest problem is to change the mind of the people that spend the money in a company. They are normally people that are more affected by marketing than by techincal capabilities. But I also see much more Linux marketing these days. -- Andre Truter Software Engineer Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 AIM: trusoftzaf http://www.trusoft.za.net <-------------------------------------------------> < The box said: Requires Windows 95 or better... > < So I installed Linux > <------------------------------------------------->
On Saturday 15 June 2002 22:39, peter banks wrote: Here's where I have to jump in with my 2 cents. AFAIK, there isn't really any real good support that comes to Microsoft for OEMS. The "kits" that OEM's are given are riddled with more configuration options than most entire Linux distros, And even a simple thing like performing an auto-installation takes a long time of research and so forth, and to boot you only get the options that Microsoft hands you (personal experience: On servers, I have to run scripts that create the autoinstall INFS because the "partial unattended" install doesn't give any option for something as important as IP address assignment".). And for an OEM, this means having techs out there that are profiecent with all of this to create an OEM-specific WIndows installation. This knowledge is _easily_ portable to Linux. And also remember, these kits aren't cheap: MS charges an arm and a leg for them. For the cost of kits, you could almost hire a contractor who knows how to build the Linux scripts; the documentation is in the distro or online for just about everything. In fact, last I heard Caldera is setting up support programs that companies can suscribe to that will support _any_ major distro of Linux. Pretty impressive. The only thing that needs to happen is for OEM's to consider Linux profitable for packaging with systems. The DOJ case will be a part of that because it stops Microsoft from being able to strong-arm OEMS into running just Windows. The other thing I think will come when Linux has strong market share in the server market, when the reality of making money off Linux becomes apparent. Once that happens, I think that OEMS will be taking a real hard look at the costs required to pack Linux with a desktop. When that happens, M$ beware! Thanks Donavan Pantke
The issue here is not the support Level of Os Distribution. The issue here is what does it take to make Linux more than "an also ran". Sure, For us Geeks, Linux is Fun! figuring out a problem is quite for filling. But that is different than using it for my Desktop where I have to do real work and send out resumes in a format that recruiters will be able to read. In order for Linux to take over the Desktop, Linux OS distributions are going to have develop the same level of support expertise that Microsoft has developed within the OEM / IT / support communities. I really don't see this happening in the Linux Community. I do however, see Linux as a real neat niche market doing the type things people used to buy Suns and HPUX machine.
Just my two cents worth pab
Ben Rosenberg
The problem is that it's "installation" support...not configuration support. And watching support work when I was at SuSE I can say that 8-10 times the question would be asked " Is SuSE installed?" Answer "Yes" " And your question is" " How do I get this to work " and getting things such as printers to work isn't an install support question. The support that comes with the box set is install support .. getting it installed..which doesn't mean getting it configured.
Is configuration not an essential (often the last) step in installation? Until something is configured into a working state then the installation cannot be considered to be complete. Therefore should installation support not include (initial) configuration support?
On Saturday 15 June 2002 10:17 pm, Graham Murray wrote:
Is configuration not an essential (often the last) step in installation? Until something is configured into a working state then the installation cannot be considered to be complete. Therefore should installation support not include (initial) configuration support?
But where would you stop? The demand would be infinite - Customer: I have a Zoot Systems Infinidongle 7 in my machine, and your installation support is supposed to help me get it (initially) configured .... You can see the problem. Windows support doesn't cover this either, but then it doesn't have to. Because most desktops currently are Windows, hardware manufacturers provide the drivers that will allow their hardware to work with it (even if those drivers are buggy, eg the drivers for a cheap wheel-mouse that kept crashing the display, just from a client case a couple of months ago). If manufacturers did the same with Linux, or at least opened their specs a bit so that others could write the drivers, you would have the same in Linux. But you certainly can't fault SuSE. Best wishes Kevin Donnelly
participants (23)
-
Andre Truter -
Ben Rosenberg -
Brian Durant -
Christopher John Shaker -
Christopher Mahmood -
Clinton F. Aarts -
David Johanson -
dh -
Donavan Pantke -
Doug McGarrett -
Frits Wuthrich -
gilson redrick -
Graham Murray -
Josef Demergis -
Keith Winston -
Kevin Donnelly -
Matthew Johnson -
neal mcdermott -
Oliver Ob -
peter banks -
Praise -
rob -
W.D. McKinney