2012. április 1. 23:35 napon James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> írta:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

James, you have the custom to reply to threads of factory on the opensuse mail list. You should be more careful. Your reply is lost to those that were following the thread, and the people here may not know what you are talking about.

Sorry, force of habit. The openSUSE lists require I change the address from the person I'm replying to, to the list address. All too often I chose the openSUSE list, when I should have selected the factory list.

I guess this thread is more appropriate to this list than to factory. I am a big KDE3 supporter and thanks for Ilya and others we can still use KDE3 even with the most recent openSUSE releases. I don't have a single KDE4 package on my system. In the last ~2 years I could resist to participate in such KDE3 vs KDE4 battles but now I can't help posting a message. Here is the list on what I could not do in KDE 4 when I last tested it (I have to confess it was at least 6-12 months ago; I got bored that there was no progress regarding the issues below and gave up trying): - There is no manual panel hiding at the users will - The fonts in the panel clock can not be set independently; for example I want the time shown in big fonts and the date in small fonts - I can not see mounted USB, CD/DVD, etc devices on the desktop - I can't see the borders between panel elements (as classic view in KDE3) - Setting up the panel is way too cumbersome compared to KDE3's simple ways (eg adding, removing, moving a panel item) - Can't set exact hight of the panel (in pixels or other units) - KDE4 Konsole font 'misc console' looked awful, practically useless - There is/was no kdeprint program (KDE print manager) or equivalent (cups print manager is not a real replacement) - KDE4 control center is a mess compared to that of KDE3; user and system options mixed frequently - KDE4 specific: Could not get rid of the annoying figure in the upper right corner (called cashew?) - My personal taste: KDE4 themes/styles far less attractive than KDE3 themes/styles, and is not possible to make them look like KDE3 themes. - KDE4 was slow compared to KDE3, much slower (I have only 0.5-1GB RAMs in my systems) - Logging out from KDE4 took ~20 seconds vs 2 seconds in KDE3 - I could not configure a second desktop for TV out in KDE4. And a comment: the question "What can't you do in KDE4 that you can in KDE3" is inappropriate. Practically everything can be done in every desktop/window manager if you know the right tools. Even in DOS or in terminal. The right question would be which desktop manager is more comfortable to use or fits better the user's personal taste. Greetings, Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Insomniactoo wrote:

Simply put, KDE4 is klunky, extremely unintuitive, and has 'fixed' way too many things that weren't broken.

Furthere, I find the performance with 12.1 to be much worse that 11.0 on the same hardware. One thing I've noticed is in addition to initially poorer performance, it gets worse with time, so that after a few days, it's noticeably worse that immediately after a reboot. Sometimes, it takes 2-3 seconds for a character to appear, after I press the key. Mouse clicks and scroll wheel are often completely ignored. I have never experienced this with any previous version of openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 09:03, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

Istvan Gabor wrote:

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- KDE4 was slow compared to KDE3, much slower (I have only 0.5-1GB RAMs in my systems)

I really don't like to counter that with "buy more RAM", but today desktop systems with 1Gb or less are probably outdated. Up until recently, I also had a few elderly office systems with only 1Gb and KDE3, but with a few office documents, office, browser, acrobat etc, 1Gb for a desktop just isn't efficient any more.

The gotcha there is.. despite the relatively low prices on RAM (You can easily get 16GB of DDR3 for under 90 Euro), these old systems are using old RAM that is obsolete. If you want to buy it new, it will cost you big time if a show even has any in stock. I'm sure that just about anyone who has done any upgrade in the past few years, has RAM laying about in a cupboard or drawer somewhere that they'd give away for free if only someone would ask. 1GB is simply not enough to run a modern OS. If you have to run an old system with severely limited hardware resources, you should be running an OS that is contemporary with the hardware instead of trying to run the latest and greatest release and yelling when that new OS is slow on significantly old hardware, or has features the old obsolete hardware cannot handle. You can run the latest openSUSE on a 386 with a 387 math co-processor, and KDE3 and 4 will work... slowly, but it'll work. You can boot Linux on a microcontroller. It will take 6 hours to boot, but you can do it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. A simple bump from 1GB to 2 GB seems to make all the difference in the world with older/slower computers. I run openSUSE 12.1 with KDE4.8.1 on an Asus EEE 1005HA (1.6 GHZ ARM CPU with 2GB of ram and an Intel video card) and it runs just fine with more than acceptable speed for what it is. Drop back to 1GB and the system slows to a glacial crawl. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

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A simple bump from 1GB to 2 GB seems to make all the difference in the world with older/slower computers.

I will say what I did about a half-hour ago in another place where a similar statement was made.

You can only add more RAM if your motherboard will accept the additional RAM. You need to check the manual for your mobo to see how much RAM you can install. No use going out and buying 18GB of RAM when your mobo will only accept 2GB.

That computer I mentioned a couple of messages back has 3 GB, but can only support 4 GB. New memory is not available in the stores. The CPU is an AMD 64 4000+. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C wrote:

I wonder if there are not other issues at work here

Could be, but I have no idea what. I often check top and don't see anything suspicious. However, I frequently see a lot of disk activity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

...

- KDE4 was slow compared to KDE3, much slower (I have only 0.5-1GB

...

RAMs in my systems) I really don't like to counter that with "buy more RAM", but today desktop systems with 1Gb or less are probably outdated.

I have 3 GB in the desktop system I mentioned in my previous note. When I experienced the poor performance with 12.1 I looked for more memory, but it's no longer available in the stores. I'd have to buy used memory from somewhere. This is on a 64 bit system, so it's hardly obsolete. Also, as I mentioned in that other note, performance decreases with time. That is not a hardware issue. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-04-02 14:09, James Knott wrote:

...

...

Also, as I mentioned in that other note, performance decreases with time. That is not a hardware issue. I have seen similar reports, related to some kde4 versions, and perhaps, to kernel 3.

Any hint of a solution? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 02 Apr 2012 00:40:29 +0200 Istvan Gabor <suseuser04@lajt.hu> wrote:

... In the last ~2 years I could resist to participate in such KDE3 vs KDE4 battles but now I can't help posting a message.

Here is the list on what I could not do in KDE 4 when I last tested it (I have to confess it was at least 6-12 months ago; I got bored that there was no progress regarding the issues below and gave up trying):

- There is no manual panel hiding at the users will

Nope. There is only "Auto-hide" or "Always visible", but ... option "Windows can cover" may do what manual hide did, make whole desktop area available to application windows. They act like there is not panel at all.

- The fonts in the panel clock can not be set independently; for example I want the time shown in big fonts and the date in small fonts

No settings for that in digital clock, but if you give more room to clock, by widening panel, it does exactly what you want automatically.

- I can not see mounted USB, CD/DVD, etc devices on the desktop

You can if you add Device Notifier widget to the desktop. Default is to be hidden in a system tray and pop up notifier panel when device is available.

- I can't see the borders between panel elements (as classic view in KDE3)

Not by default, but ... You can add it when you activate Panel Settings :) Also, I did not explore different themes that may have such element by default.

- Setting up the panel is way too cumbersome compared to KDE3's simple ways (eg adding, removing, moving a panel item)

It is also not simple to forget that panel is not locked and mess it. (It happened to me.)

- Can't set exact hight of the panel (in pixels or other units)

You can use KRuler, put it next to the panel and set width or hight as you wish. Although, I'm not sure in what use case one needs to set panel size manually? (Obviously I didn't need that.)

- KDE4 Konsole font 'misc console' looked awful, practically useless

For me default option "Smooth fonts" is disaster for majority of fonts. Turned it off and selection of usable fonts is bigger then not so good looking, but they all are readable. You find it in: Konsole - top panel menu Settings - Configure Current Profile In a popup window go to the tab Appearance. At the bottom uncheck "Smooth fonts". I'm afraid that this setting is something that depends on graphics hardware and drivers, so people with different hardware can see different results. I don't think that openSUSE can set default that works for majority without wide participation of people.

- There is/was no kdeprint program (KDE print manager) or equivalent (cups print manager is not a real replacement)

Printing is complex topic. I'm wondering what level of printing functionality is covered with "KDE printing manager"? For instance HP offers exactly that functionality with "HPLIP Status Service" with much more details then independent vendor like KDE can provide. That is no different to any OS where hardware vendors take care of their support software (and if they don't then we are left in a dark).

- KDE4 control center is a mess compared to that of KDE3; user and system options mixed frequently

Things are changing. Also, this is tree view of Configure desktop: http://en.opensuse.org/File:Systemsettings-service-manager.png You can see in default and tree view that System functions are separated. Also, I would not appreciate to have same function in two places, and the only difference would be that second require root password. One button to set up system for all users is better option.

- KDE4 specific: Could not get rid of the annoying figure in the upper right corner (called cashew?)

Well, I don't see problem in the image that has functionality, and can be covered by other desktop items. It should be in next section - personal taste.

- My personal taste: KDE4 themes/styles far less attractive than KDE3 themes/styles, and is not possible to make them look like KDE3 themes.

Well, themes. Not something that I change often. One that is working fine on certain computer will stay until next installation. Also, there is plenty online, just as with KDE3.

- KDE4 was slow compared to KDE3, much slower (I have only 0.5-1GB RAMs in my systems)

How much RAM you need depends on your use case and architecture you are using. More RAM you give, it will cache more data, use more memory and run faster. That is not bound to particular desktop, it is how programs work. Firefox or LibreOffice can run in 60MB, but with more they will be overall faster. I tested on 32 bit down to 128 MB and without large applications it worked. With 512 MB it was good, allowing large applications to run smoothly. With 64 bit it will ask for more RAM, or run slower, but that is not a desktop problem, it is, in general, software problem :)

- Logging out from KDE4 took ~20 seconds vs 2 seconds in KDE3

Without knowing what was running, it is hard to tell. Numbers and application names are crucial here.

- I could not configure a second desktop for TV out in KDE4.

That is driver problem. I didn't have any problems with a second screen, and probably there will be no problems with TV.

And a comment: the question "What can't you do in KDE4 that you can in KDE3" is inappropriate. Practically everything can be done in every desktop/window manager if you know the right tools. Even in DOS or in terminal. The right question would be which desktop manager is more comfortable to use or fits better the user's personal taste.

It is not all about taste. It depends on what you use computer for. If you need some application that is designed to use all RAM and CPU cycles it can get, and your computer can't provide at least specified minimum, then it will be slow independent of desktop in use. (I managed to bog down Core2 Quad with 8GB RAM, giving Blender a bit more detailed mesh then hardware can handle. There was nothing wrong with KDE; the same would happen in any desktop.)

Greetings,

Istvan

-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org