Re: [SLE] Browser war hots up!!
Oh also cliff, You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing? Robert
napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
I'll comment on this... in a nutshell yes. Version 6.4 cost me $29. 7.0 Pro is $79, a increase of 100%+. Personally I don't mind contributing to SuSE, but I also hate the RH pricing structure. I'll upgrade, but that does not mean I can't complain about the price. I can understand it from SuSE's perspective, but then again... I don't have to like it at all. Dana -- Linux / OpenBSD - Ain't life grand! :)
I agree with this , definatly dont like it and may upgrase through suse with ther "upgrade" product , howerver last time I looked into it it was very slow with peaple who ordered it befor release geting it after it hit stores shelvs. THats what turned me off tho the suse provided upgrade , especialy when I could woal into a store and get it for the same price when you add in shipping. Dana , you hit it right on the head with the pricing. At 11:51 PM 2/2/2001 -0600, Dana J. Laude wrote:
napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
I'll comment on this... in a nutshell yes. Version 6.4 cost me $29. 7.0 Pro is $79, a increase of 100%+. Personally I don't mind contributing to SuSE, but I also hate the RH pricing structure. I'll upgrade, but that does not mean I can't complain about the price. I can understand it from SuSE's perspective, but then again... I don't have to like it at all.
Dana --
Linux / OpenBSD - Ain't life grand! :)
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On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:35:30PM -0500, napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
Well, this discussion has emerged here before. Yes I do. The personal/professional bullshit is nothing other than a money spinner. Since 99% of the software on the CD's is open-sourced, or at least on a free-for-personal use license, they are not actually giving you anything at all with the extra money, execpt the cost of a couple of extra CD's, some written material, and an extra 30 days of worthless support. Also they know that a lot of people will buy the "professional" because they are worried they will be missing something. It stinks. As I said before SuSE is out Red-Hatting Redhat, with the difference being you can make copies of Red Hat CD's, you cannot with SuSe's !. I will tell you this. See what you think. I live in Holland and here they had a so-called Dutch Version of SuSe 7.0. This was the same as the English Language version of SuSE professional, except much cheaper, and with the following diffrerences: - The installation guide was in Dutch, all otehr guides in English. - Staroffice had the Dutch language module and not the English one. - There was no DVD copy of the software. - The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90 Now - I don't care about the Dutch language bit, but I was going to buy the English language one. In the end, by a process of deduction I realised that the Dutch version was the professional one at chepaer price. And so it was... (any of you want to order it from me, my markup is very small ..lol..). I presume it is the sme for Italian, French (well maybe not french) ... etc.. So it goes. I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway. Just the way it is... Cliff
On Saturday 03 February 2001 13:12, you wrote:
On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:35:30PM -0500, napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
Well, this discussion has emerged here before. Yes I do. The personal/professional bullshit is nothing other than a money spinner. Since 99% of the software on the CD's is open-sourced, or at least on a free-for-personal use license, they are not actually giving you anything at all with the extra money, execpt the cost of a couple of extra CD's, some written material, and an extra 30 days of worthless support. Also they know that a lot of people will buy the "professional" because they are worried they will be missing something. It stinks. As I said before SuSE is out Red-Hatting Redhat, with the difference being you can make copies of Red Hat CD's, you cannot with SuSe's !.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made copies of all the install CD's from SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
I will tell you this. See what you think. I live in Holland and here they had a so-called Dutch Version of SuSe 7.0. This was the same as the English Language version of SuSE professional, except much cheaper, and with the following diffrerences:
- The installation guide was in Dutch, all otehr guides in English. - Staroffice had the Dutch language module and not the English one. - There was no DVD copy of the software. - The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
Just the way it is...
Not hardly.. I've been watching and reading this thread for quite a while. I just finally got tired of all the mis-statements being made. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 6.4, Kernel 2.2.14+ For a great linux portal try http://www.freezer-burn.org
- The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
How do you define a worthfull support ?
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
I totally agree if you are complaining here which means in my point of view creating public gossip expecting a result is very unlikely. Try sending it to feedback@suse.de and see what happens ? In addition I do not understand why people are complaing about the price. I have been using SuSE since 6.3 and when they have switched to the personal/professional/subscription schema my upgrade is 41 Euro (appoximately 20 USD) which was for Suse 7.0 6 CD +1 DVD so what is wrong with the price if you are registered user. It is same for 7.1 41 Euro 7 CD +1 DVD plus the books plus the support If you are not then do the ftp and you have the same software except thepay series IIRC no printed manual no support (whih you have defined as worthless ?) So what's the catch I do not get it -- Togan Muftuoglu
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:36:49PM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
- The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
How do you define a worthfull support ?
Answers to questions. Not silence, wrong information, or contradictory information.
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
I have never experienced this. I have made suggestions (in a polite way), I received one response, which was a "we have such good press in germany" type response.
I totally agree if you are complaining here which means in my point of view creating public gossip expecting a result is very unlikely. Try sending it to feedback@suse.de and see what happens ?
I have done. I am reflecting my experience. I actually recommend Suse to people btw.
In addition I do not understand why people are complaing about the price. I have been using SuSE since 6.3 and when they have switched to the personal/professional/subscription schema my upgrade is 41 Euro (appoximately 20 USD) which was for Suse 7.0 6 CD +1 DVD so what is wrong with the price if you are registered user. It is same for 7.1 41 Euro 7 CD +1 DVD plus the books plus the support
I am not complaining about the price, I am complaining about the Personal/Professional strategy. It creates a line for bean-counters to count more beans, not to reflect the richness of Linux/GNU distributions.
If you are not then do the ftp and you have the same software except thepay series IIRC no printed manual no support (whih you have defined as worthless ?) So what's the catch I do not get it
The printed manual is very good .. I suggested to Suse, politely, that in all honesty they should define the terms of their support on the Box they sell it in. It is buried in the manual what it is. For example, if you re-compile your kernel, you do not get support. I am quite happy for Suse to so whatever they like. I have a choice to buy it or not, of course. But since I use it I have also the right to comment on their business practises and the misleading marketing. I have paid for that right. Cliff
Cliff Sarginson wrote:
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:36:49PM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
- The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
How do you define a worthfull support ?
Answers to questions. Not silence, wrong information, or contradictory information.
In my point of view this is not a definition which is objective. this is a subjective emotional feeling of not getting back what you wanted in your personal expectation
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
I have never experienced this. I have made suggestions (in a polite way), I received one response, which was a "we have such good press in germany" type response.
Depends what you have asked or said as the statement or question
I totally agree if you are complaining here which means in my point of view creating public gossip expecting a result is very unlikely. Try sending it to feedback@suse.de and see what happens ?
here is one I got back Dear Mr. Muftuoglu, you wrote:
On page http://sdb.suse.de/de/sdb/html/hylafax_awk.html there is a link to ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/7.0/a1/ toget the awk in order to solve the hylafax cron job report. The link takes to the ftp whre the needed file does NOT exists
It needed some time to organize this update without breaking other things accidentally. Now there is an update for hylafax on the way which has an updated gawk inside. It is done by the maintainer but hasn't built yet in our buildsystem. You should find this hylafax-update in a few days on our FTP server.
Sincerely,
Wolfgang Rosenauer
So I can positively say feedback@suse.de works
I am not complaining about the price, I am complaining about the Personal/Professional strategy. It creates a line for bean-counters to count more beans, not to reflect the richness of Linux/GNU distributions.
If you are not then do the ftp and you have the same software except thepay series IIRC no printed manual no support (whih you have defined as worthless ?) So what's the catch I do not get it
The printed manual is very good .. I suggested to Suse, politely, that in all honesty they should define the terms of their support on the Box they sell it in. It is buried in the manual what it is. For example, if you re-compile your kernel, you do not get support.
I agree on the point that it should be in a visible location where the customer can see before buying and opening the package. Yet its implementation depends on the logistics of your box priniting startegy. Maybe in the future releases we may see that it is also defined on the box.
I am quite happy for Suse to so whatever they like. I have a choice to buy it or not, of course. But since I use it I have also the right to comment on their business practises and the misleading marketing. I have paid for that right.
I disagree on that point you have paid to use the ease of packing and interoperatibility of varios packages with additional patches where they have been tested before being provided to the customer. On the other hand you do have to complain, comment suggest about the business practices of a company. However I would not take it as granted someone will listen my comments on the way they run their business on the fact that I am a customer. If it was the case the I was providing a consultation service to the company on their request than again it is up to ther management board to consider the suggestions that I would be making as a consultant. -- Togan Muftuoglu
Hi I am new pretty new to Linux and this mailing list so you will have to excuse me if I have gone against the normal etiquette and offended anyone etc. (no flames please) I use a mixture of machines at home, Clarkconnect(Redhat 6.2) as a gateway/firewall, Win2K on a workstation (I have to co-operate with my work) and SuSE on a server. I can see both sides of this discussion but for me the bottom line is Windows Microsoft Exchange ?1,086.87 Microsoft Office ?399.38. The Blue Screens of Death/The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck are free. Support = the MS Knowledgebase(if you can get through) Linux SuSE Professional & Clarkconnect + Star Office (etc) 60 days support, unlimted on-line help, this group,'000's of people on the Net as support. No BSOD's and runs forever. Cost =?58 For me it is a no brainer. Hopefully the Win2K part will disappear pretty soon Sandy A
Sandy Arnott wrote:
Hi I am new pretty new to Linux and this mailing list so you will have to excuse me if I have gone against the normal etiquette and offended anyone etc. (no flames please)
not a flame per see, just a etiquette sugestion, turn off the "reciept required" option in your email settings -- proud Linux user since kernel 1.1.54 icq#42235604
Sorry I just noticed myself. It's a "work" thing. Turning off now. Thanks for being helpful. Sandy A -----Original Message----- From: donk@suse.com [mailto:donk@suse.com]On Behalf Of Donald G. Knecht Sent: 02 February 2001 15:27 To: Sandy Arnott Cc: SLE Subject: Re: [SLE] Browser war hots up!! Sandy Arnott wrote:
Hi I am new pretty new to Linux and this mailing list so you will have to excuse me if I have gone against the normal etiquette and offended anyone etc. (no flames please)
not a flame per see, just a etiquette sugestion, turn off the "reciept required" option in your email settings -- proud Linux user since kernel 1.1.54 icq#42235604 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:33:49PM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Cliff Sarginson wrote:
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:36:49PM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
- The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
How do you define a worthfull support ?
Answers to questions. Not silence, wrong information, or contradictory information.
In my point of view this is not a definition which is objective. this is a subjective emotional feeling of not getting back what you wanted in your personal expectation
It is not subjective, it is factual. Objectively I either got an answer or did not. Subjectivity implies opinion, it is not my opinion that I got no, wrong or contradictory answers. That happened. I suggest you look up what subjective/objective means.
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
I have never experienced this. I have made suggestions (in a polite way), I received one response, which was a "we have such good press in germany" type response.
Depends what you have asked or said as the statement or question
I asked for clarifications. I didn't ask them to suggest a name for my cat.
I totally agree if you are complaining here which means in my point of view creating public gossip expecting a result is very unlikely. Try sending it to feedback@suse.de and see what happens ?
here is one I got back
Dear Mr. Muftuoglu,
So I can positively say feedback@suse.de works
In this case fot you. In my case not. So what does it depend on ? The way the wind is blowing ?
I am not complaining about the price, I am complaining about the Personal/Professional strategy. It creates a line for bean-counters to count more beans, not to reflect the richness of Linux/GNU distributions.
If you are not then do the ftp and you have the same software except thepay series IIRC no printed manual no support (whih you have defined as worthless ?) So what's the catch I do not get it
The printed manual is very good .. I suggested to Suse, politely, that in all honesty they should define the terms of their support on the Box they sell it in. It is buried in the manual what it is. For example, if you re-compile your kernel, you do not get support.
I agree on the point that it should be in a visible location where the customer can see before buying and opening the package. Yet its implementation depends on the logistics of your box priniting startegy. Maybe in the future releases we may see that it is also defined on the box.
Errm, logistics dependent ? No it isn't, they pay someone to design the box, all they need to say is, "please make it clear what support we provide within the purchase price."
I am quite happy for Suse to so whatever they like. I have a choice to buy it or not, of course. But since I use it I have also the right to comment on their business practises and the misleading marketing. I have paid for that right.
I disagree on that point you have paid to use the ease of packing and interoperatibility of varios packages with additional patches where they have been tested before being provided to the customer. On the other hand you do have to complain, comment suggest about the business practices of a company. However I would not take it as granted someone will listen my comments on the way they run their business on the fact that I am a customer. If it was the case the I was providing a consultation service to the company on their request than again it is up to ther management board to consider the suggestions that I would be making as a consultant.
I am sorry, I buy something, anything, I have certain expectations that come with any kind of purchase. Those expectations can initially only be based on what the company says about the product. And the packages have not all been tested before, they have been packaged, yes. Actually I don't expect them to test 1500 software packages in every posible combination. That would be unreasonable even for me to demand ! However when I report a problem with a package installation (as I have done) I did not receive a "thank you we will look into it", I got a "we cannot be expected to know every package inside out" type reply. One complainee one this list even said that he got a reply to an enquiry about sendmail from a Suse support person that "he didn't know anything about sendmail". Cliff
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Þann laugardagur 03 febrúar 2001 14:05 skrifaðir þú:
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:36:49PM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
- The installation program defualts to Dutch (no big deal change it) - 60 days worthless support instead of 90
How do you define a worthfull support ?
Answers to questions. Not silence, wrong information, or contradictory information.
They _do_ answer questions, when you ask a question theyr'e obliged to answer, end in most cases they also answer the questions that are outside the scope of "installation support". Having had to contact SuSE on several occations due to bad fortune ( flaky hardware ) while upgrading, I have had a very positive experience with their supportline, although they have not been able to help on all occations. ( being an advanced user, my questions most often fall outside the scope of installation )
I like the Suse distribution, but let's not be romantic about their aspirations. They take no notice of any complaints or suggestions anyway.
Wrong again.. If you send the complaints and suggestions to the correct address, things do happen. I've seen it before, and I'm sure it will happen again.
I have never experienced this. I have made suggestions (in a polite way), I received one response, which was a "we have such good press in germany" type response.
rants... :-Þ
I totally agree if you are complaining here which means in my point of view creating public gossip expecting a result is very unlikely. Try sending it to feedback@suse.de and see what happens ?
I have done. I am reflecting my experience. I actually recommend Suse to people btw.
Oh, strange.. I have recommended to a very few people to continue using MicroSnot Windows - I don't think that makes me neither a better person nor a worse one. Recommendations on operating systems should be based on need and useability, not on personal preferences and personal experiences with the manufacturer...
In addition I do not understand why people are complaing about the price. I have been using SuSE since 6.3 and when they have switched to the personal/professional/subscription schema my upgrade is 41 Euro (appoximately 20 USD) which was for Suse 7.0 6 CD +1 DVD so what is wrong with the price if you are registered user. It is same for 7.1 41 Euro 7 CD +1 DVD plus the books plus the support
I am not complaining about the price, I am complaining about the Personal/Professional strategy. It creates a line for bean-counters to count more beans, not to reflect the richness of Linux/GNU distributions.
It does not. I support quite a few users that have absolutely no need for the bells and whistles of the professional package. Usually, I find myself spending up to two hours of support time stripping down the professional package to suite their needs, whereas they would have saved a lot of hassle by choosing the personal package to start with. How many basic users ( f.ex. moms, dads, aunties, uncles et al ) do you know, that have requirements for programming languages beyond sh/perl/python ?
If you are not then do the ftp and you have the same software except thepay series IIRC no printed manual no support (whih you have defined as worthless ?) So what's the catch I do not get it
The printed manual is very good .. I suggested to Suse, politely, that in all honesty they should define the terms of their support on the Box they sell it in. It is buried in the manual what it is. For example, if you re-compile your kernel, you do not get support.
If you look at the picture of the SuSE box found on http://www.suse.de/en does it not say in large print "[6,9]0 days of installation support" ? Notice the word "installation". It has the same meaning as when you go out and buy yourself a new car. You get a service contract, but they still won't wash'n'wax your car, nor will they empty your ashtray. All deviation from a basic standard installation path is outside the scope of basic installation support, and thus it requires an extended support contract. This is how you make money on free ( beer ) software, and it's exactly by the 'guidelines'.
I am quite happy for Suse to so whatever they like. I have a choice to buy it or not, of course. But since I use it I have also the right to comment on their business practises and the misleading marketing. I have paid for that right.
Of course you have the right to comment, but by exercising that right, you must also be prepared that others may see things differently, and even be ready to accept that you migh have been wrong. I hope I havn't upset you too much :-) Regards, Tor Sigurdsson
Cliff
- -- ______ /---------------------------------------\ \ | Þór Sigurðsson | Tor Sigurdsson | t | | Netmaður | Network Specialist | o | |-----------------------------------------| s | | tosi@rhi.hi.is | i | \---------------------------------------/_____/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6fBuT6mRH+PEpr2YRAqmuAJ4qcGGH3vXugLM8T1kllCjcP0CW3gCgsz74 t0Df+EP0XdycwEpBq6SsoI4= =N/S5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
They _do_ answer questions, when you ask a question theyr'e obliged to answer, end in most cases they also answer the questions that are outside the scope of "installation support".
Well, i will not repeat myself here. I am reflecting my experience.
I actually recommend Suse to people btw.
Oh, strange.. I have recommended to a very few people to continue using MicroSnot Windows - I don't think that makes me neither a better person nor a worse one. Recommendations on operating systems should be based on need and useability, not on personal preferences and personal experiences with the manufacturer...
Well, to spell it out. I recommend it to people looking for a Linux distribution for a particular reason. Personal experiences with the manafacturer are very important. They are one of the few protections against hyperbolic adverts.
I am not complaining about the price, I am complaining about the Personal/Professional strategy. It creates a line for bean-counters to count more beans, not to reflect the richness of Linux/GNU distributions.
It does not. I support quite a few users that have absolutely no need for the bells and whistles of the professional package. Usually, I find myself spending up to two hours of support time stripping down the professional package to suite their needs, whereas they would have saved a lot of hassle by choosing the personal package to start with.
If you say so.
How many basic users ( f.ex. moms, dads, aunties, uncles et al ) do you know, that have requirements for programming languages beyond sh/perl/python ?
This is Micosoft thinking. We know what is best for you.
The printed manual is very good .. I suggested to Suse, politely, that in all honesty they should define the terms of their support on the Box they sell it in. It is buried in the manual what it is. For example, if you re-compile your kernel, you do not get support.
If you look at the picture of the SuSE box found on http://www.suse.de/en does it not say in large print "[6,9]0 days of installation support" ?
Notice the word "installation". It has the same meaning as when you go out and buy yourself a new car. You get a service contract, but they still won't wash'n'wax your car, nor will they empty your ashtray. All deviation from a basic standard installation path is outside the scope of basic installation support, and thus it requires an extended support contract. This is how you make money on free ( beer ) software, and it's exactly by the 'guidelines'.
Ok and does your uncle, aunt and mummy (to use your example) know what basic installation support means ? The example of buying a car, no, I don't expect them to empty the ashtray, but I do expect to get out of first gear.
I am quite happy for Suse to so whatever they like. I have a choice to buy it or not, of course. But since I use it I have also the right to comment on their business practises and the misleading marketing. I have paid for that right.
Of course you have the right to comment, but by exercising that right, you must also be prepared that others may see things differently, and even be ready to accept that you migh have been wrong.
I hope I havn't upset you too much :-)
You haven't upset me at all. And I am delighted that others have had a more positive experience of Suse at the level we are talking about. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Just consider this, I use Suse as my main desktop machine. So I do have some positive things going for it! This is not rally about the technical merits of Suse distributions. It is about their business practise. Cliff
SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
They are not mis-statements. They are my experience of Suse over the last 2-3 years. I will send a translated version of why the small little company I use in Holland explains why they are not allowed to copy and sell Suse CD's if you like. I have never received a satisfactory answer to any support query. A lot of the time I have received no answer at all. Or on one memorable occasion 2 answers that contradicted each other. These are facts from my experience. I have no reason to make them up. Cliff
Mike wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 13:12, you wrote:
On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:35:30PM -0500, napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
Well, this discussion has emerged here before. Yes I do. The personal/professional bullshit is nothing other than a money spinner. Since 99% of the software on the CD's is open-sourced, or at least on a free-for-personal use license, they are not actually giving you anything at all with the extra money, execpt the cost of a couple of extra CD's, some written material, and an extra 30 days of worthless support. Also they know that a lot of people will buy the "professional" because they are worried they will be missing something. It stinks. As I said before SuSE is out Red-Hatting Redhat, with the difference being you can make copies of Red Hat CD's, you cannot with SuSe's !.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made copies of all the install CD's from SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
I do not think he was speaking technically, but legaly. tThere is some propetary stuff on the CD's, and for that reason you might not make a "legal" copy. As long as you do not care to much about that, it works as well as with any CD that comes over for a visit. Juergen -- =========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann juergen.braukmann@gmx.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu | /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ===========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\
I cannot believe someone called 30 days extra support worthless. I know people who would be using that. To me all those extra free stuff saves me time, therebye saving me money and effort. Thats worth it. Why get so upset with the manuals? They are a veritable Goldmine of information. RH are a lot worse with there distro's, no manuals worth mentioning and there professional version is almost $200. The other big difference is that I see SuSE's name over a lot of configuration files out on the 'net, I like giving over my money over to them because its ending up on excellent projects that are helping Linux increase its market share. Compared to others out there they do a lot and never get the same commendation as RH gets for supporting Open Source projects. Matt On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:21 am, juergen.braukmann@ruhr-west.de wrote:
Mike wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 13:12, you wrote:
On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:35:30PM -0500, napi5 wrote:
Oh also cliff,
You're really that upset with SuSE 7.0? Do you think there're getting that carried away with the $ thing?
Well, this discussion has emerged here before. Yes I do. The personal/professional bullshit is nothing other than a money spinner. Since 99% of the software on the CD's is open-sourced, or at least on a free-for-personal use license, they are not actually giving you anything at all with the extra money, execpt the cost of a couple of extra CD's, some written material, and an extra 30 days of worthless support. Also they know that a lot of people will buy the "professional" because they are worried they will be missing something. It stinks. As I said before SuSE is out Red-Hatting Redhat, with the difference being you can make copies of Red Hat CD's, you cannot with SuSe's !.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made copies of all the install CD's from SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
I do not think he was speaking technically, but legaly. tThere is some propetary stuff on the CD's, and for that reason you might not make a "legal" copy. As long as you do not care to much about that, it works as well as with any CD that comes over for a visit.
Juergen
On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:53, Mike wrote:
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made copies of all the install CD's from SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
I doubt if Cliff is a troll, Mike. Some folks have a harder time installing Linux (including SuSE) than others. Some have periods of bad luck. At other times hardware problems unknowingly cause problems which are then attributed to SuSE or the app doing the crashing. I've been using SuSE since 5.3 and I've installed every distro that SuSE has released since then. I learned in 5.3 that the most critical part of the setup is the proper choice of x-server and monitor settings. Most problems I've seen on this mail list appear to me to be related to missettings of the x-server or monitor. This is expecially true when users complain of apparent keyboard and mouse lockup and feel the only thing to do is cycle the power. Once they learn about ALT-Fx these problems diminish. If the hung box is part of a net and remote ftp is allowed control is often regained by remote login. But, far and away, the x-server and monitor settings are most critical. Since 5.3 I've NEVER had YaST fail to make a perfect install or ungrade, depending on which route I took at the time. I've had trouble from time to time adding packages from other sources, and some packages, like BibleTime, which used to run fine under KDE1, I can't get to run under KDE2, yet. Also, I need to use OSS sound because of the age of my sound chips. KDevelop worked perfectly under KDE1 but isn't up to snuff in KDE2. Quanta+ worked great under KDE1 but didn't under KDE2 for awhile. It works fine now, except for a bug in the file to website upload code, which prevents uploading. These are all transient problems with specific packages. SuSE, however, has been and is a rock. This is why I stay with SuSE. Jerry -- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781
On Saturday 03 February 2001 16:03, you wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:53, Mike wrote:
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made copies of all the install CD's from SuSE. Not a problem. It works every time. I've done this with 6.3, 6.4, and 7.0 most recently. Either you don't know how or you are trolling. I only do copies of the 1st 2 CD's as they are usually the most used here, and I prefer to keep the originals safe.
I doubt if Cliff is a troll, Mike. Some folks have a harder time installing Linux (including SuSE) than others. Some have periods of bad luck. At other times hardware problems unknowingly cause problems which are then attributed to SuSE or the app doing the crashing.
You will see what I answered to his statement. He simply stated that he couldn't make a copy of the CD. That statement is blatently false. He can make a copy of it. He just can't sell or give it to someone. Then he wanted to send a copy of the reason his small company couldn't make the copies. Hmmm. Wonder why?
I've been using SuSE since 5.3 and I've installed every distro that SuSE has released since then. I learned in 5.3 that the most critical part of the setup is the proper choice of x-server and monitor settings. Most problems I've seen on this mail list appear to me to be related to missettings of the x-server or monitor. This is expecially true when users complain of apparent keyboard and mouse lockup and feel the only thing to do is cycle the power. Once they learn about ALT-Fx these problems diminish. If the hung box is part of a net and remote ftp is allowed control is often regained by remote login. But, far and away, the x-server and monitor settings are most critical.
You aren't the only one. But I also learned during that time, and the machine I'm on now, was built with this in mind. No strange hardware in this one. Although I finally took the plunge and have purchased a different type of video card. From Matrox G200 to a Nvidia based card.. I'm sort of looking forward to the challenge.
Since 5.3 I've NEVER had YaST fail to make a perfect install or ungrade, depending on which route I took at the time.
Yast1 and I are good friends. ;-) I try Yast2 with each new version, and always return to my good friend.
I've had trouble from time to time adding packages from other sources, and some packages, like BibleTime, which used to run fine under KDE1, I can't get to run under KDE2, yet. Also, I need to use OSS sound because of the age of my sound chips. KDevelop worked perfectly under KDE1 but isn't up to snuff in KDE2. Quanta+ worked great under KDE1 but didn't under KDE2 for awhile. It works fine now, except for a bug in the file to website upload code, which prevents uploading.
I do the same thing with sound.. But for a different reason. OSS is simple, and it works. I did try alsa, but had to fight with it. the others I don't use. What I'd really like is for SuSE to keep putting the KDE2 and XF4.0 RPMs for 6.4 on their site.
These are all transient problems with specific packages. SuSE, however, has been and is a rock. This is why I stay with SuSE. Jerry
That's for sure. And I can hardly wait for Cebit up in Hannover this year. SuSE made quite a show last year and I want to see what they come up with this year. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 6.4, Kernel 2.2.14+ For a great linux portal try http://www.freezer-burn.org
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:53:07PM +0100, Mike wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 16:03, you wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:53, Mike wrote: make a copy of it. He just can't sell or give it to someone. Then he wanted to send a copy of the reason his small company couldn't make the copies. Hmmm. Wonder why?
Are you wilfully mis-reading what I say ? It is not my small company. And what do you wonder why ? I would offer to send it as proof that it is disallowed. If you are making some kind of insinuation then say it out loud. Cliff
Hi all, I suggest to stop war ; this browser and suse war. Everybody has had good and bad experience. The only thing is that we often forget the good one. This doesn't mean we shouldn't share experience. Filip. Le Samedi 3 F�vrier 2001 17:15, vous avez �crit :
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:53:07PM +0100, Mike wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 16:03, you wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:53, Mike wrote:
make a copy of it. He just can't sell or give it to someone. Then he wanted to send a copy of the reason his small company couldn't make the copies. Hmmm. Wonder why?
Are you wilfully mis-reading what I say ? It is not my small company. And what do you wonder why ? I would offer to send it as proof that it is disallowed. If you are making some kind of insinuation then say it out loud.
Cliff
Actually, I think the rehashing every few weeks of SuSE's stupid idea of switching to the more expensive and annoying two version system, is a good thing. Perhaps maybe SuSE will eventually realize the serious SuSE users are extremely unhappy with it, and change back to the old way. Or better yet, release the "RedHat PowerPack-style" version I keep advocating - that would be really wonderful. To succeed, SuSE must not go blindly forward in Redmonian style - they must listen to the users. Under stand what the users want, and make a product that fits those demands. Anything else will certainly lead to the continued dominance of Microsoft. -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============
-----Original Message----- From: filip [mailto:vhf@skynet.be] Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 11:04 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Browser war hots up!!
Hi all,
I suggest to stop war ; this browser and suse war. Everybody has had good and bad experience. The only thing is that we often forget the good one. This doesn't mean we shouldn't share experience. Filip.
Le Samedi 3 Fivrier 2001 17:15, vous avez icrit :
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:53:07PM +0100, Mike wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 16:03, you wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2001 06:53, Mike wrote:
make a copy of it. He just can't sell or give it to someone. Then he wanted to send a copy of the reason his small company couldn't make the copies. Hmmm. Wonder why?
Are you wilfully mis-reading what I say ? It is not my small company. And what do you wonder why ? I would offer to send it as proof that it is disallowed. If you are making some kind of insinuation then say it out loud.
Cliff
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participants (14)
-
Cliff Sarginson -
Dana J. Laude -
Donald G. Knecht -
filip -
Jerry Kreps -
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de -
Matthew -
Mike -
napi5 -
Samy Elashmawy -
Sandy Arnott -
Timothy R. Butler -
Togan Muftuoglu -
Tor Sigurdsson