[opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] drop xsane with default KDE installation
Dnia wtorek, 27 kwietnia 2010 o 05:18:04 Ken Schneider - openSUSE napisał(a):
On 04/26/2010 06:42 PM, Mariusz Fik pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Hi,
Do we really need xsane with default KDE installation? skanlite is simple and powerful app and it should be fair enough.
Yes we do, Just because you do not use does not mean no one else does. Does scanlite allow scanning multiple documents into one PDF? And as Donn stated it is DT agnostic.
(by the way Donn, PLEASE stop top posting)
Why do You think I'm not using it? Many _normal_ questions meets same answer: If you don't have to use it, just don't use it but many other users use it. Does any new Linux/KDE user need to scan multiple pages/docs into one pdf? Is it better to multiply programs which offer similar functionality? We don't need a mess in fresh kmenu. Look ie. on ubuntu menu... simple and all kind of programs installed by default. -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards, Mariusz Fik, openSUSE Community Member
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/27/2010 11:15 AM, Mariusz Fik wrote:
Dnia wtorek, 27 kwietnia 2010 o 05:18:04 Ken Schneider - openSUSE napisał(a):
On 04/26/2010 06:42 PM, Mariusz Fik pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Hi,
Do we really need xsane with default KDE installation? skanlite is simple and powerful app and it should be fair enough.
Yes we do, Just because you do not use does not mean no one else does. Does scanlite allow scanning multiple documents into one PDF? And as Donn stated it is DT agnostic.
(by the way Donn, PLEASE stop top posting)
Why do You think I'm not using it? Many _normal_ questions meets same answer: If you don't have to use it, just don't use it but many other users use it. Does any new Linux/KDE user need to scan multiple pages/docs into one pdf? *Is it better to multiply programs which offer similar functionality?* We don't need a mess in fresh kmenu. Look ie. on ubuntu menu... simple and all kind of programs installed by default.
Linux-based distros have offered a variety of different apps with identical or at least similar functionality at least since the first CD distros were published in 1994. It's a tradition. Unfortunately, or fortunately for the anti-choice faction, that tradition is being dropped lately. The reason for the tradition of including multiple apps is simple: Offer users several different apps so they can easily select one that they like. Most users love to have such a selection available to them so they can pick the one they feel works best or simply "feels" best for them. They are happier to have several choices available and on hand than to have a single choice imposed upon them in the way the commercial OS market does. There have always been a few who complain about having "too many choices", and complain that there must be only one app per function per distro. As many people like to say, "free software is about choice", so by extension this is about the users' choice. I'd say to those who hate choice, "sorry, but you're going to have to just live with having too many choices. After all, those who want choices had to live without choice or even a say for a long time. Deal with it. Please. But if you can't, you could produce your own distro... It's so easy a caveman could do it... == jd Fortune's Real-Life Courtroom Quote #32: Q: Do you know how far pregnant you are right now? A: I will be three months November 8th. Q: Apparently then, the date of conception was August 8th? A: Yes. Q: What were you and your husband doing at that time? - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFL10hzhpL3F+HeDrIRAvFaAKCkoxebDSnMjE/QZU/RB+T7AeCocwCdFzFG tUTeR97JIyboeOzctLpv1OE= =zAGa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 22:26, j debert wrote:
Linux-based distros have offered a variety of different apps with identical or at least similar functionality at least since the first CD distros were published in 1994. It's a tradition. Unfortunately, or fortunately for the anti-choice faction, that tradition is being dropped lately. The reason for the tradition of including multiple apps is simple: Offer users several different apps so they can easily select one that they like. Most users love to have such a selection available to them so they can pick the one they feel works best or simply "feels" best for them. They are happier to have several choices available and on hand than to have a single choice imposed upon them in the way the commercial OS market does. There have always been a few who complain about having "too many choices", and complain that there must be only one app per function per distro. As many people like to say, "free software is about choice", so by extension this is about the users' choice. I'd say to those who hate choice, "sorry, but you're going to have to just live with having too many choices. After all, those who want choices had to live without choice or even a say for a long time.
Absolutely :-) I like choice. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXctgACgkQU92UU+smfQUNZQCfVkL5iz7q8mWS6MUpYRu4zO6L ZMAAoIdC+7ZpN5IhrpnfGwcNY9yB8s8A =pc+m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dnia środa, 28 kwietnia 2010 o 01:27:20 Carlos E. R. napisał(a):
On 2010-04-27 22:26, j debert wrote:
Linux-based distros have offered a variety of different apps with identical or at least similar functionality at least since the first CD distros were published in 1994. It's a tradition. Unfortunately, or fortunately for the anti-choice faction, that tradition is being dropped lately. The reason for the tradition of including multiple apps is simple: Offer users several different apps so they can easily select one that they like. Most users love to have such a selection available to them so they can pick the one they feel works best or simply "feels" best for them. They are happier to have several choices available and on hand than to have a single choice imposed upon them in the way the commercial OS market does. There have always been a few who complain about having "too many choices", and complain that there must be only one app per function per distro. As many people like to say, "free software is about choice", so by extension this is about the users' choice. I'd say to those who hate choice, "sorry, but you're going to have to just live with having too many choices. After all, those who want choices had to live without choice or even a say for a long time.
Absolutely :-)
I like choice.
But easy access to all other programs via package manager is _choice_ too... Isn't it for You? Making a choice? Even during install You need to choose: KDE, Gnome, other DE, no X... Still not enough? How many apps is in default system for Office Productivity? 1. OpenOffice.org How many audioplayers? 1. Amarok/Banshee Videoplayer? 1. Kaffeine/Totem And where is Your choice on this stage? I answer for You. Package Manager & software repositories. -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards, Mariusz Fik, openSUSE Community Member
On Wednesday 28 Apr 2010 00:44:04 Mariusz Fik wrote:
Dnia środa, 28 kwietnia 2010 o 01:27:20 Carlos E. R. napisał(a):
On 2010-04-27 22:26, j debert wrote:
Linux-based distros have offered a variety of different apps with identical or at least similar functionality at least since the first CD distros were published in 1994. It's a tradition. Unfortunately, or fortunately for the anti-choice faction, that tradition is being dropped lately. The reason for the tradition of including multiple apps is simple: Offer users several different apps so they can easily select one that they like. Most users love to have such a selection available to them so they can pick the one they feel works best or simply "feels" best for them. They are happier to have several choices available and on hand than to have a single choice imposed upon them in the way the commercial OS market does. There have always been a few who complain about having "too many choices", and complain that there must be only one app per function per distro. As many people like to say, "free software is about choice", so by extension this is about the users' choice. I'd say to those who hate choice, "sorry, but you're going to have to just live with having too many choices. After all, those who want choices had to live without choice or even a say for a long time.
Absolutely :-)
I like choice.
But easy access to all other programs via package manager is _choice_ too... Isn't it for You? Package managers that frell up way to many times WHY do you not like the ability to choose are you a windows draconian type people will use what i say and nothing else or something along those lines
Making a choice? Even during install You need to choose: KDE, Gnome, other DE, no X... Still not enough?
How many apps is in default system for Office Productivity? 1. OpenOffice.org And your point IS ?
How many audioplayers? 1. Amarok/Banshee Simple in fact nowhere near enough choice here
Videoplayer? 1. Kaffeine/Totem As Above
And where is Your choice on this stage? I answer for You. Package Manager & software repositories.
Too many people involved in Opensuse are far far far to busy trying to do a windows on Opensuse this is what we say you will run like it or lump it this is NOT a good culture to continue . It is all very well saying the stuff is out there BUT there are a surprisingly large number of people out here in the Real world that have very IFFY slow and downright internet connections , what this has to do with the argument IS the those people NEED the choices ON the DISC not on the other end of some connection that may or may not complete the transaction without barfing the systems up for you so the long and the short of it all is WE NEED CHOICE item ,the more the better Pete -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 07:51 up 5 days 19:33, 4 users, load average: 0.01, 0.10, 0.07
Peter Nikolic skrev:
It is all very well saying the stuff is out there BUT there are a surprisingly large number of people out here in the Real world that have very IFFY slow and downright internet connections , what this has to do with the argument IS the those people NEED the choices ON the DISC not on the other end of some connection that may or may not complete the transaction without barfing the systems up for you so the long and the short of it all is WE NEED CHOICE item ,the more the better
Amen to that. I've been in enough situations where the distro would simply not have worked at all if I hadn't had different choices. I've been in enough situations where even the fairly large amount of apps to choose from in a distro like openSUSE wasn't enough to make it work. Just start with the none in the selection of wireless network drivers already on the disk not working, in a place where there is nowhere to plug a network cable (or simply no Internet available at all)... One might say we don't need more choice, but better alternatives. Those better alternatives will simply not substantiate without an ecosystem of many different partly or even completely overlapping apps reaching the public. BR, Gudmund @ still waiting for wireless to *always* work out of the box and open source scanner software that supports my sheet feeders and *decent* OCR, and... -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-04-28 at 09:55 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
Peter Nikolic skrev:
It is all very well saying the stuff is out there BUT there are a surprisingly large number of people out here in the Real world that have very IFFY slow and downright internet connections , what this has to do with the argument IS the those people NEED the choices ON the DISC not on the other end of some connection that may or may not complete the transaction without barfing the systems up for you so the long and the short of it all is WE NEED CHOICE item ,the more the better Amen to that. I've been in enough situations where the distro would simply not have worked at all if I hadn't had different choices.
I can't recall having been in such a situation within the last decade.
I've been in enough situations where even the fairly large amount of apps to choose from in a distro like openSUSE wasn't enough to make it work.
Nah, a default installation of GNOME on a desktop provides everything I need, and more, the great majority of the time. Everything else is just a one-click-install (Banshee, Monodevelop; but that is just for more current versions) or "zypper in ..." away. The only app I've had to download a package for manually is RabbitMQ (which included finding the openSUSE erlang repo). But really.... I don't expect an AMQ service to be included by default.
Just start with the none in the selection of wireless network drivers already on the disk not working, in a place where there is nowhere to plug a network cable (or simply no Internet available at all)...
The majority of devices I've installed on, for years, including laptops, have worked out-of-the-box. Including wireless. Thanks openSUSE [you really buy your brown-themed neighbor to shame in that regard; and you have less annoying swagger].
One might say we don't need more choice, but better alternatives. Those
Which has nothing to do with package management.
better alternatives will simply not substantiate without an ecosystem of many different partly or even completely overlapping apps reaching the public.
I see no correlation between "reaching the public" and being "default", or even being installed by "default". If you need a very specific application that implies you have specific knowledge about a specific problem domain - and are capable of looking, or at least asking someone to look for you. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> Whitemice Consulting -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams skrev:
On Wed, 2010-04-28 at 09:55 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
Peter Nikolic skrev:
It is all very well saying the stuff is out there BUT there are a surprisingly large number of people out here in the Real world that have very IFFY slow and downright internet connections , what this has to do with the argument IS the those people NEED the choices ON the DISC not on the other end of some connection that may or may not complete the transaction without barfing the systems up for you so the long and the short of it all is WE NEED CHOICE item ,the more the better Amen to that. I've been in enough situations where the distro would simply not have worked at all if I hadn't had different choices.
I can't recall having been in such a situation within the last decade.
Then your experience is fundamentally different from mine. I had things "just work" back with SuSE 6.3 and 6.4, but after that, it's been going up and down.
I've been in enough situations where even the fairly large amount of apps to choose from in a distro like openSUSE wasn't enough to make it work.
Nah, a default installation of GNOME on a desktop provides everything I need,
I think this is the key to your success: everything *you* need. Mileage does vary, so a lot of others just aren't as lucky.
and more, the great majority of the time. Everything else is just a one-click-install (Banshee, Monodevelop; but that is just for more current versions) or "zypper in ..." away.
With no decent Internet connection at hand, or none at all?
The only app I've had to download a package for manually is RabbitMQ (which included finding the openSUSE erlang repo). But really.... I don't expect an AMQ service to be included by default.
Included as default isn't the same as getting installed as default. As long as there's one alternative that really, truly works in the desktop environment I can work with (KDE in my case), and it's possible to for the user to find it, things are fine. It's when this doesn't happen that things get troublesome.
Just start with the none in the selection of wireless network drivers already on the disk not working, in a place where there is nowhere to plug a network cable (or simply no Internet available at all)...
The majority of devices I've installed on, for years, including laptops, have worked out-of-the-box. Including wireless.
I'd be interested to know what laptops those were, since I have the exactly opposite experience. Laptop with wireless = BIG trouble.
Thanks openSUSE [you really buy your brown-themed neighbor to shame in that regard; and you have less annoying swagger].
Sorry, no idea what you mean.
One might say we don't need more choice, but better alternatives. Those
Which has nothing to do with package management.
I must be missing something here. Too little sleep or too little caffeine, I guess.
better alternatives will simply not substantiate without an ecosystem of many different partly or even completely overlapping apps reaching the public.
I see no correlation between "reaching the public" and being "default", or even being installed by "default". If you need a very specific application that implies you have specific knowledge about a specific problem domain - and are capable of looking, or at least asking someone to look for you.
What I meant was that if the thing you need isn't on the disk, you will have an inordinately hard time finding it, even if you can and do ask people to look for it after you yourself failed (sheet feeder support for HP ScanJet 7450 on Linux + decent OCR, anyone?). So if there isn't a lot of overlapping apps *on the disk*, those apps will not reach the public, since "the public" has typically, in my experience given up on Linux after a few fruitless searches on the Internet and being told off on support lists for not starting off by getting hardware they checked will work with Linux in the first place (often either practically impossible or expensive enough to put make it unpalatable). BR, Gudmund -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Carlos E. R. -
Gudmund Areskoug -
j debert -
Mariusz Fik -
Peter Nikolic