Purple Shirt wrote:

<partially snipped for brevity>

He got it Saturday. (Yes the Best Buy in Okemos, MI has it too so y'all (ya'll?) come down =) He said he spend all Saturday installing and trying it out and he wasn't as happy as I thought he might be.

He first installed it with 2.4 and it wouldn't recognize some hardware of his. He then switched to 2.2 and it recognized all his hardware. He had some trouble with TT fonts.

He made a statement which gives me the creeps. It went something like this. "How can they put on the box 'With new kernel 2.4' if it is not working?"

I'm sure there are many of us who have a certain amount of trepidation towards recommending Linux to folks for fear that they'll have problems and end up becoming Linux opponents.....and we certainly don't need any more of those. If I recommend a new circular saw to a friend and he ends up botching his/her project because he/she doesn't know how to use it properly, does that make it a crappy saw? I'm sorry but I get more and more discouraged when I hear stories like this as it shows that there seem to be more and more people out there that view computers like basic calculators or microwave ovens. They think you should be able to pop in a CD, make a few mouse clicks, and away you go! Okay, back to your original point ;^). I agree to some extent with the 2.4 kernel problem. While I can't relate personally since I'm still waiting for my 7.1 (should be here this morning, WOOHOO!), I also understand that there are jillions of potential PC hardware combinations and it's impossible to test them all. As long as folks are successfully using the SuSE 2.4 kernel in 7.1, we can't say it "is not working" can we? Invariably certain folks are going to encounter difficulty, but I don't see any way around that. Same thing happens from time to time with Windows....

I realize that this person a nice and smart guy has a lot of Windows still in his blood but it also shows something else. Where has Linux come to? It is apparent that marketing is slowly taking over the business. I don't like to see it. It shows that promises you make on the front of a box better be true or people will be disappointed. I think we should scale back on touting the latest greatest.

I was under the impression that 2.2.18 was the default kernel, and people could optionally install 2.4? If this is true then I'd say it is one of the strong points of Linux....give people choices. I haven't read the 7.1 box so I don't know what "promises" were made but if they're not written there as "promises", I'd tell your friend to perhaps not interpret everything on the box as "we promise that you will not have any problems with this." I think that pretty much goes for any software package.....which is why they employ support people.

I did suggest to him before he bought it that he stick with 2.2.18 because it is probably more stable than the latest 2.4. He may have forgotten or accidentally chosen the other. It gave him a bad first impression. We all know how important those are. I know I hated 5.3 when I tried it out and let it sit in my room for two months before touching it again =)

I feel for the many SuSE folks on this list. It must be hard to work so many hours to produce such an awesome product for people, slaving so hard to contribute to the Linux community/earn a living, only to see people bash the product the first time they can't get a kernel to compile or module to load. I guess I come back to my earlier point about the saw. Just because the tools are provided, doesn't mean that the skills to use the tools are....

How did I resolve the issue. I simply said that I myself don't buy or use something simply because the box is pretty or makes promises. I buy it for the content. It was the best way to put it. I am still unsatisfied how Linux attracts more people by 'glamour & shine' and not what is characteristic for Linux, rock solid computing. In the end we have to guess that my colleague bought SuSE Pro simply because I used it successfully for two years, he knew about it and had no trouble believing me.

I have not been around with Linux since it started but I consider myself a user of limited status and I am sad to see that we attract more people but forget to introduce them to the community and its values. It is not enough to have people use open source software if they don't understand what comes with it. The good, the bad and the ugly.

I said that SuSE is trying to appeal to the average user by having a stable release and to the adventurous by including latest kernels like 2.4 and supporting such projects as bringing Linux to the mainframe. I again and again mention that with time he will gain experience and it will allow him to make good judgements of what software is working for him and what he might not deploy because its hot out of the oven and he might burn his hands on.

This is excellent advice to new Linux users. They need to understand that Linux is not Windows and probably (hopefully) never will be. Don't expect Windows! If you want your PC dummied down to the point where you don't, or can't make changes to your systems, then stick with Windows. I'm hoping that people make the choice to try Linux because they're looking to try something different.

Let me finish my ramblings. I enjoy seeing more and more people pick up Linux but I got this bad feeling in my stomach that we lose out on educating them enough about the realm of open source; how users of it have to make a commitment to become active users, instead of button pushers, in exchange for freedom of software use as one sees fit.

I help run a LUG and I see a lot of folks come in gung-ho about Linux.....and then they come back two months later discouraged because it's too difficult. I usually mark these up as casualties and move on. Linux is almost more a state of mind than just another piece of software, and it seems that people either "have it" or they don't... Just my thoughts. Ken -- "We can build a better product than Linux..." -- Microsoft VP Jim Allchin

When Window 3.1 came out, it took me 6 months of installing, configuring, scrapping it, reading newsgroups/website/magazines, pigeon-holing every new consultant, re-trying each time the quarterly MS developers' CD set arrived to get an upgrade/install with networking that worked. No version of Linux (Slackware 3.3, 3.6, & 4.0, SuSE 6.1 & 7.0, Red Hat 6.2, so far) has ever taken me anywhere near that long. Few people outside of OEMs have ever installed Windows on bare metal. They have upgraded Windows on hardware that was already proven to be compatible with Window version N-1. Linux rewards and demands opening up the hood, RTFM, and getting your hands dirty. When there are network problems on my wife's Windows computer, I usually have to debug/diagnose the problem from one of the Linux boxes because the hood is welded shut on Windows and it costs hundreds of dollars to buy programs to see under the hood. Just my rant, Jeffrey Quoting Purple Shirt :

So it took a co-worker of mine two years to hop onto our train, the Linux ride. He tells me he got sick of the way Windows progresses and how the user has less and less rights with all the restrictions they put into software and hardware(see CPRM) these days.

He knows I've been using SuSE for more than 2 years now successfully. He tells me he will buy 7.1 and I suggest to him he should get Pro because it is worth it as new user and he might appreciate the books in additiona to the wealth packaged on CD.

He got it Saturday. (Yes the Best Buy in Okemos, MI has it too so y'all (ya'll?) come down =) He said he spend all Saturday installing and trying it out and he wasn't as happy as I thought he might be.

He first installed it with 2.4 and it wouldn't recognize some hardware of his. He then switched to 2.2 and it recognized all his hardware. He had some trouble with TT fonts.

He made a statement which gives me the creeps. It went something like this. "How can they put on the box 'With new kernel 2.4' if it is not working?"

I realize that this person a nice and smart guy has a lot of Windows still in his blood but it also shows something else. Where has Linux come to? It is apparent that marketing is slowly taking over the business. I don't like to see it. It shows that promises you make on the front of a box better be true or people will be disappointed. I think we should scale back on touting the latest greatest.

I did suggest to him before he bought it that he stick with 2.2.18 because it is probably more stable than the latest 2.4. He may have forgotten or accidentally chosen the other. It gave him a bad first impression. We all know how important those are. I know I hated 5.3 when I tried it out and let it sit in my room for two months before touching it again =)

How did I resolve the issue. I simply said that I myself don't buy or use something simply because the box is pretty or makes promises. I buy it for the content. It was the best way to put it. I am still unsatisfied how Linux attracts more people by 'glamour & shine' and not what is characteristic for Linux, rock solid computing. In the end we have to guess that my colleague bought SuSE Pro simply because I used it successfully for two years, he knew about it and had no trouble believing me.

I have not been around with Linux since it started but I consider myself a user of limited status and I am sad to see that we attract more people but forget to introduce them to the community and its values. It is not enough to have people use open source software if they don't understand what comes with it. The good, the bad and the ugly.

My colleague basically didn't understand how (in his words) SuSE can ship a non-working instable 2.4. I had to tell him that there was probably nothing wrong with 7.1 (even though I haven't tried it) simply because it allows you to switch to 2.2.18 and that was stable and probably flawless.

I said that SuSE is trying to appeal to the average user by having a stable release and to the adventurous by including latest kernels like 2.4 and supporting such projects as bringing Linux to the mainframe. I again and again mention that with time he will gain experience and it will allow him to make good judgements of what software is working for him and what he might not deploy because its hot out of the oven and he might burn his hands on.

Let me finish my ramblings. I enjoy seeing more and more people pick up Linux but I got this bad feeling in my stomach that we lose out on educating them enough about the realm of open source; how users of it have to make a commitment to become active users, instead of button pushers, in exchange for freedom of software use as one sees fit.

Mark my words =),

mk

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