Why does SuSE tweak software so much that it no longer work with other programs?
For long hours now I was trying to get Netbeans 5.5 Enterprise Pack Beta installed on my SuSE 10.1 X64 box. I had problems all over the place. First of all, the Sun Java Application Server does not work under a 64 bit JDK (not SuSE's fault of course) so I removed the 64 bit version and installed the 32 bit. All were SuSE packages. Still no go. The installer would not even recognize the JDK. Something in the SuSE installation makes it non-standard somehow. After struggling with it for a while, I gave up, removed SuSE's version and installed the latest JDK from Sun. I also created an alternative so I can change between versions. Now the application server installs and runs just fine. Problem number 2: Clicking on any link or help from within Netbeans did nothing. Checked the settings for firefox in NB and all looked fine. Again, after struggling with the problem for a while I installed the latest firefox which I downloaded from mozilla and now everything works fine. BTW, I am also running other distributions and they don't have all these problems. So now back to my question. Why does SuSE tweak packages so much that they break interoperability between different programs? Avi
Avi Schwartz wrote:
So now back to my question. Why does SuSE tweak packages so much that they break interoperability between different programs?
I suspect your question is actually off-topic here - if you have a technical problem, you're in the right place, but your question is more of the polemic kind, I would say. Maybe try suse-ot@suse.com ? /Per Jessen, Zurich
Sorry to disagree, but this is a perfectly valid question to be asked in this group. It is NOT off topic and it is not "Polemic". The fact is that SuSE's packaging causes problem with other programs that a user may want to run on their system. As someone that is using SuSE and just spent hours trying to figure out why things don't work, I think I have the right to bring this issues up and if you have a problem with that, well, tough. Avi Per Jessen wrote:
Avi Schwartz wrote:
So now back to my question. Why does SuSE tweak packages so much that they break interoperability between different programs?
I suspect your question is actually off-topic here - if you have a technical problem, you're in the right place, but your question is more of the polemic kind, I would say.
Maybe try suse-ot@suse.com ?
/Per Jessen, Zurich
On Sunday 20 August 2006 08:11, Avi Schwartz wrote:
Sorry to disagree, but this is a perfectly valid question to be asked in this group. It is NOT off topic and it is not "Polemic". The fact is that SuSE's packaging causes problem with other programs that a user may want to run on their system. As someone that is using SuSE and just spent hours trying to figure out why things don't work, I think I have the right to bring this issues up and if you have a problem with that, well, tough.
Avi
Per Jessen wrote:
Avi Schwartz wrote:
So now back to my question. Why does SuSE tweak packages so much that they break interoperability between different programs?
I suspect your question is actually off-topic here - if you have a technical problem, you're in the right place, but your question is more of the polemic kind, I would say.
Maybe try suse-ot@suse.com ?
/Per Jessen, Zurich
I wonder if it is possible to define a filter for the list that automatically cans top posted replies ..
On 20/08/06 02:30, Peter Nikolic wrote:
<snip excess quotes>
I wonder if it is possible to define a filter for the list that automatically cans top posted replies ..
To quote a famous pot of petunias, "Oh no, not again!"
On Sunday 20 August 2006 10:14, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 20/08/06 02:30, Peter Nikolic wrote:
<snip excess quotes>
I wonder if it is possible to define a filter for the list that automatically cans top posted replies ..
To quote a famous pot of petunias, "Oh no, not again!" well it has to be said else how we gonna get the message thru ...
Different mailing lists have a different idea what is "correct" and what is not. I was yelled at in the past in other mailing lists for bottom posting so at this point I decided I will top post in all mailing lists until such a time that there will be a mail program that can be configured to bottom or top post depending on the mailing list. If you don't like this, let me give you a hint: filter my email out. After all you don't seem to be interested in discussing the content of the message any way, you just enjoy playing the role of a cop. Get a life. Avi Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Sunday 20 August 2006 10:14, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 20/08/06 02:30, Peter Nikolic wrote:
<snip excess quotes>
I wonder if it is possible to define a filter for the list that automatically cans top posted replies .. To quote a famous pot of petunias, "Oh no, not again!" well it has to be said else how we gonna get the message thru ...
Avi Schwartz wrote:
Different mailing lists have a different idea what is "correct" and what is not. I was yelled at in the past in other mailing lists for bottom posting so at this point I decided I will top post in all mailing lists until such a time that there will be a mail program that can be configured to bottom or top post depending on the mailing list. If you don't like this, let me give you a hint: filter my email out. After all you don't seem to be interested in discussing the content of the message any way, you just enjoy playing the role of a cop. Get a life.
Avi, if you real want help with your problem, this is not to way to get it - not in user-driven forum. OK, so top-posting is not very welcome here, so maybe for starters you could adapt to that. Secondly, describe your problem and ask technical, not polemic questions. Just a suggestion, you are of course free to choose. /Per Jessen, Zürich
On 20/08/06 14:02, Per Jessen wrote:
<snip> Secondly, describe your problem and ask technical, not polemic questions. Just a suggestion, you are of course free to choose. Per, just what in hell is your problem? Avi asked two *very* specific questions, both of which he had to resolve by removing the SuSE edition of the packages and installing directly from the product developer. What is more specific than that?
Based on this and your original reply to him, I have to suspect that you didn't even bother to read everything he asked, particularly not the middle where the problems are described. You seem to have switched off after reading the subject line and the very last line of the message. For Avi: 10.1 is broken in many respects. Is it possible for you to retrograde your system to 10.0, which seems much better? (At least from other user experience reported here, I am still using 9.3) Otherwise, you should wait until (??? later this year/early next) for a 10.2 release candidate.
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 20/08/06 14:02, Per Jessen wrote:
<snip> Secondly, describe your problem and ask technical, not polemic questions. Just a suggestion, you are of course free to choose. Per, just what in hell is your problem? Avi asked two *very* specific questions, both of which he had to resolve by removing the SuSE edition of the packages and installing directly from the product developer. What is more specific than that?
His main question was "Re: [SLE] Why does SuSE tweak software so much that it no longer work with other programs?" - what "in hell" is more unspecific than that?
Based on this and your original reply to him, I have to suspect that you didn't even bother to read everything he asked, particularly not the middle where the problems are described. You seem to have switched off after reading the subject line and the very last line of the message.
Avis post provided very little in terms of appropriate information needed to diagnose his problem. That combined with his main question is just not conducive to solving his problem. /Per Jessen, Zürich
Original post asked:
First of all, the Sun Java Application Server does not work under a 64 bit JDK (not SuSE's fault of course) so I removed the 64 bit version and installed the 32 bit. All were SuSE packages. Still no go. The installer would not even recognize the JDK. Something in the SuSE installation makes it non-standard somehow. After struggling with it for a while, I gave up, removed SuSE's version and installed the latest JDK from Sun. I also created an alternative so I can change between versions. Now the application server installs and runs just fine.
Problem number 2: Clicking on any link or help from within Netbeans did nothing. Checked the settings for firefox in NB and all looked fine. Again, after struggling with the problem for a while I installed the latest firefox which I downloaded from mozilla and now everything works fine.
BTW, I am also running other distributions and they don't have all these problems.
That's pretty specific, I think.
At 10:26 PM 8/20/2006 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 20/08/06 14:02, Per Jessen wrote:
<snip> Secondly, describe your problem and ask technical, not polemic questions. Just a suggestion, you are of course free to choose. Per, just what in hell is your problem? Avi asked two *very* specific questions, both of which he had to resolve by removing the SuSE edition of the packages and installing directly from the product developer. What is more specific than that?
His main question was "Re: [SLE] Why does SuSE tweak software so much that it no longer work with other programs?" - what "in hell" is more unspecific than that?
Based on this and your original reply to him, I have to suspect that you didn't even bother to read everything he asked, particularly not the middle where the problems are described. You seem to have switched off after reading the subject line and the very last line of the message.
Avis post provided very little in terms of appropriate information needed to diagnose his problem. That combined with his main question is just not conducive to solving his problem.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
I think that Avi's post, which _did_ describe problems, was written in justifiable frustration. Perhaps someone from Novell, or wherever SuSE is actually written, reads this list, and will take his complaint to heart. However, I understand there is a bug- reporting system in place, which probably really does get back to Novell and the delvelopers. I'm not sure how this works, since I haven't used it--and would like to, actually--but this is probably where his problems should be sent. Including the complaint about introducing failures where there haven't been any before. As Ann Landers used to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" --doug -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006
His main question was "Re: [SLE] Why does SuSE tweak software so much that it no longer work with other programs?" - what "in hell" is more unspecific than that? Avi is providing you with valuable user feedback... Novell/SuSE does
On Sunday 20 August 2006 15:26, Per Jessen wrote: things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately... which prevents tar-ball installs, installation certain source compiled/installed drivers, etc. Avi just wants to know why?.... and maybe he wants Novell/SuSE to think it over and stop it. A good distro should be a 'base' and should play well in the sandbox with the rest of the Linux community. Avi is having trouble with SuSE... SuSE should think about it. -- Kind regards, Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net
On Sunday 20 August 2006 21:54, Mark H. Harris wrote:
Novell/SuSE does things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately... which prevents tar-ball installs,
What do you mean by that? -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
Novell/SuSE does things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately... which prevents tar-ball installs,
What do you mean by that? Well, as a for instance... SuSE uses modprobe.d, modprobe.conf, and modprobe.conf.local. Some of the rest of the Linux world is still using modules.conf (or conf.modules). I recently had a royal pain trying to install
On Monday 21 August 2006 01:07, John Andersen wrote: the new Alsa drivers (from RealTek, and from the Alsa project) because the instructions (and Makefile) did not match the SuSE distro... so I had to manually tweak everything to get it to work... this is just one example. The configuration etc/sysconfig tree is anther example... completely differnt from RedHat (for instance, not that its totally a bad thing), but basically, when I switched over to SuSE I had to relearn almost everything I had learned about how things are configured maintained in the linux filesystem. Some of what I mean (as well as Avi, I think) is that Novell/SuSE customizes almost everything they touch (I am learning) which is great as long as Yast and YOU work--- but when things have to be done manually, oh boy what a pain. As an example, after installing the Alsa drivers for my Intel HD Audio, now if I start Yast and touch the 'sound' config button Yast crashes... don't know why, and don't know how to fix it... but Yast is definitely not happy with my manual install of the Alsa drivers... which was the only thing I could do to get my sound working on this new HP box (S7400N). That's what I meant .... -- Kind regards, Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net
On Sunday 20 August 2006 22:34, Mark H. Harris wrote:
On Monday 21 August 2006 01:07, John Andersen wrote:
Novell/SuSE does things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately... which prevents tar-ball installs,
What do you mean by that?
Well, as a for instance... SuSE uses modprobe.d, modprobe.conf, and modprobe.conf.local. Some of the rest of the Linux world is still using modules.conf (or conf.modules).
Seems to me those OTHER distros are back level. I was under the impression modprobe.d etc were part and parcel of the later kernels and none of SuSE's doing.
I recently had a royal pain trying to install the new Alsa drivers (from RealTek, and from the Alsa project) because the instructions (and Makefile) did not match the SuSE distro... so I had to manually tweak everything to get it to work... this is just one example. The configuration etc/sysconfig tree is anther example... completely differnt from RedHat (for instance, not that its totally a bad
You want red hat, run red hat! I like having one place to look for command line options etc... It doesn't break anything, because if you install some non-suse pacakge it won't use that area anyway.
thing), but basically, when I switched over to SuSE I had to relearn almost everything I had learned about how things are configured maintained in the linux filesystem.
The Linux Filesystem? Or you had to Unlearn Red Hat?
As an example, after installing the Alsa drivers for my Intel HD Audio, now if I start Yast and touch the 'sound' config button Yast crashes... don't know why, and don't know how to fix it...
Start with Intel's web site. I've build Mplayer, xine, and MythTv from tarball source, including drivers for tha Hauppage tuners and had no particular problem adopting red hat centric directions to SuSE. No more trouble than I would have had adopting them to Ubuntu. I build a lot of stuff from source tar balls, and also install the occasional binary tarball (Vmware etc) with no particular problem. That's why I was surprised that you said you couldn't do tar-ball installs. I do it fairly frequently. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
Mark H. Harris wrote:
On Sunday 20 August 2006 15:26, Per Jessen wrote:
His main question was "Re: [SLE] Why does SuSE tweak software so much that it no longer work with other programs?" - what "in hell" is more unspecific than that? Avi is providing you with valuable user feedback...
Well, fair enough - but as just another user, I've got plenty of that :-)
Novell/SuSE does things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately... which prevents tar-ball installs, installation certain source compiled/installed drivers, etc. Avi just wants to know why?
Most of the reasoning has been discussed in bright and vivid detail on this list as well as on the opensuse lists. Btw, I don't think SUSE actually prevents anyone from tar-ball installs, installation certain source compiled/installed drivers, etc. /Per Jessen, Zürich
* Mark H. Harris (harrismh777@earthlink.net) [20060821 09:57]:
Avi is providing you with valuable user feedback... Novell/SuSE does things strikingly different than the rest of the Linux community lately...
But then this isn't the right place to deliver it! There's the feedback web form and there's bugzilla. Very few of the Novell/SUSE employees read this list. Philipp
For Avi: 10.1 is broken in many respects. Is it possible for you to retrograde your system to 10.0, which seems much better? (At least from other user experience reported here, I am still using 9.3) Otherwise, you should wait until (??? later this year/early next) for a 10.2 release candidate. Amen. 10.0 is liveable. 9.3 and 9.2 actually work well out of the box. Two of my necessary boxes are still at 9.2 running like a champ... and not gonna be upgraded any time sooooon. 10.1 has been a fiasco... I am beginning to think that everyone at Novell should back up a few yards and punt... at least think through the
On Sunday 20 August 2006 15:18, Darryl Gregorash wrote: possibility that the SuSE loyalists probably won't forgive another go-around in 10.2. Words to the wise. -- Kind regards, Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net
Avi Schwartz wrote:
Sorry to disagree, but this is a perfectly valid question to be asked in this group. It is NOT off topic and it is not "Polemic".
Well, if not then perhaps you'd care to read up on how to ask smart questions, courtesy of Eric Raymond: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
The fact is that SuSE's packaging causes problem with other programs that a user may want to run on their system.
I don't believe that has been established as a fact.
As someone that is using SuSE and just spent hours trying to figure out why things don't work, I think I have the right to bring this issues up and if you have a problem with that, well, tough.
I don't have a problem with it, I merely suggested a more appropriate forum for your type of question. /Per Jessen, Zürich
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat August 19 2006 23:56, Per Jessen wrote:
Avi Schwartz wrote:
So now back to my question. Why does SuSE tweak packages so much that they break interoperability between different programs?
I suspect your question is actually off-topic here - if you have a technical problem, you're in the right place, but your question is more of the polemic kind, I would say.
Maybe try suse-ot@suse.com ?
/Per Jessen, Zurich
Wrong, The ot list discusses things such as why M$ is putting out a particular kind of FUD about linux or OSS, or why Congress (U.S.) is trying to pass some braindead legislation in favor of one corporation or another, yada, yada (as well as jokes and assorted other things). InterOp in software is an appropriate subject since this list is not the Novell payed for support forum. You'd be more correct in pointing him at the suse-beta list -but they don't usually look at things in retrospect as much, though they will address things in the SuSE Bugzilla accounts. SuSE-linux-e, Interop and non-functioning software would be the more appropriate place for the question "Why does SuSE change standard packages to the extent they do" since this will lead to a more congent solution to his situation than would be addressed on the OT list - trust me - if he posts this on the OT list it will remain falllow and unanswered. Cheers, Curtis. - -- Spammers Beware: Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! "The only problem with capitalism is capitalists, they're so damn greedy!" President Herbert Hoover -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE6A1l7CQBg4DqqCwRAnLHAKDr2S9l7rZBcao0rvfvEA9zb/uFPACeMzYc w4kBDG5CYloa1kiBsfIRUUM= =WMj0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Curtis Rey wrote:
Wrong, The ot list discusses things such as why M$ is putting out a particular kind of FUD about linux or OSS, or why Congress (U.S.) is trying to pass some braindead legislation in favor of one corporation or another, yada, yada (as well as jokes and assorted other things).
Actually, the OT list is most probably for anything that is off-topic here. The way Avi asked his question lead me to think it wasn't a real, well-diagnosed technical issue, therefore mostly polemic. And therefore I maintain it belongs on the OT list. /Per Jessen, Zürich
participants (9)
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Avi Schwartz -
Curtis Rey -
Darryl Gregorash -
Doug McGarrett -
John Andersen -
Mark H. Harris -
Per Jessen -
Peter Nikolic -
Philipp Thomas