[SLE] CNN, SusE, Lousy PR

alphafemale＠radiant.net

5 Mar 2000 5 Mar '00

00:53

Hello, all - OK, I've gone over the CNN article. About a 1/2 dozen times. Dyroff's sanity needs be called into question. Anyone - ANYONE - releasing a top-of-the-line product, and then claiming it's not able to compete in a given market is shooting themselves in the foot... to say nothing of their employees, who create - often painstakingly - that product. As a businessperson, programmer, and consultant, i have to think twice about tossing support behind SuSE. Until now, i've been a staunch supporter. I like the product. It's the most comprehensive distro on the market. It'll do for damned near any purpose conceivable. But CEO's like Dyroff have a tendency to sabotage such good efforts. Who the hell is he working for - M$??? Or Caldera?? Articles like this are a slap in the face to people who are actively promoting SuSE Linux. I'm sure the companies who are investing huge sums of cash to support the Linux effort don't like it much either. I dare Dyroff to tell IBM, Intel and a few other major league players that Linux isn't ready for the desktop market. He'll have a great many people to answer to if he does. Right now, he's not much credit to the company that pays him. Alpha <STRONG>attached mail follows:</STRONG><HR> OK, I've gone over the CNN article. About a 1/2 dozen times. Dyroff's sanity needs be called into question. Anyone - ANYONE - releasing a top-of-the-line product, and then claiming it's not able to compete in a given market is shooting themselves in the foot... to say nothing of their employees, who create - often painstakingly - that product. As a businessperson, programmer, and consultant, this article makes me think twice about tossing support behind SuSE. Until now, i've been a staunch supporter. I like the product. It's the most comprehensive distro on the market. It'll do for damned near any purpose conceivable. But CEO's like Dyroff have a tendency to sabotage such good efforts. Who the hell is Dyroff working for - M$??? Or Caldera?? Articles like this are a slap in the face to people who are actively promoting SuSE Linux. I'm sure the companies who are investing huge sums of cash to support the Linux effort don't like it much either. I dare Dyroff to tell IBM, Intel and a few other major league players that Linux isn't ready for the desktop market. He'll have a great many people to answer to if he does. Right now, he's not much credit to the company that pays him. Alpha -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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steganos1＠home.com

5 Mar 5 Mar

00:08

i agree suse rox.... i think its more than ready for the desktop..i been using it since 61 and i love it its my main operating system... other than a few minor programs not readily available it kicks ass!!!!!!!! they should fire that dude who said all that about suse... i also believe suse is more secure right outta the box than any other distro of linux, im proof of that cause when i was first using it, i was online for 8 1/2 weeks straight 24/7 without a firewall and never been hacked but had scans but no entries... the only reason i had to reboot was becuse of a power outage...and thats what hooked me on suse was the secureness of it cause i was new to linux and didnt know alot about linux security... i was also able to do everything i was used to doing in winders in suse!!!!!! plus more..... i think its more ready for the desktop than winders...i mean who wants to reformat their drive several times a week and reboot everytime they install a program....come on wake up and smell the coffee ya know... later..... On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 16:53:24 -0800, SJ Black wrote:

...

Hello, all -

OK, I've gone over the CNN article. About a 1/2 dozen times.

Dyroff's sanity needs be called into question.

Anyone - ANYONE - releasing a top-of-the-line product, and then claiming it's not able to compete in a given market is shooting themselves in the foot... to say nothing of their employees, who create - often painstakingly - that product.

As a businessperson, programmer, and consultant, i have to think twice about tossing support behind SuSE. Until now, i've been a staunch supporter. I like the product. It's the most comprehensive distro on the market. It'll do for damned near any purpose conceivable. But CEO's like Dyroff have a tendency to sabotage such good efforts. Who the hell is he working for - M$??? Or Caldera??

Articles like this are a slap in the face to people who are actively promoting SuSE Linux. I'm sure the companies who are investing huge sums of cash to support the Linux effort don't like it much either.

I dare Dyroff to tell IBM, Intel and a few other major league players that Linux isn't ready for the desktop market. He'll have a great many people to answer to if he does.

Right now, he's not much credit to the company that pays him.

Alpha

For protecting some of your Privacy while surfing the net put this in front of your url: http://anon.free.anonymizer.com/http://www. (url here) http://www.linux-mandrake.com/lothar it runs on all linux distro`s PGP Public Key Fingerprint: 60ED B3C7 274A D1F7 DFBD 27E3 BD9C CF54 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

avi＠CFFtechnologies.com

04:58

I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up. I love Linux and I use it as my main platform both at home and at work but I have to agree that Linux is not quite ready for the desktop. It is coming close, but it is not there yet. For example, to be ready for the desktop it must have, among other things, the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy. Whether we like it or not, that is what 95% of businesses are using today, and that it what people use at home, since they need to ability to exchange documents between work and home. I am yet to find a program that can handle Office documents with 100% accuracy, or even 75% accuracy. I have tried them all, WP, StarOffice, Applix, Abi Word. Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation. The difference is, that when you buy a computer today, %99.99 of them come pre installed with Windows, not Linux. The users don't have to install anything, which makes Linux by definition harder to install. Instead of crying for Mr. Dyroff's head, we should all thank him for being sincere. We are getting enough lies from Microsoft, we don't need to hear them from the makers of our favorite distribution. By opening our eyes to the weaknesses in Linux, the truth allows us to improve the operating system. Avi SJ Black wrote:

...

Hello, all -

OK, I've gone over the CNN article. About a 1/2 dozen times.

Dyroff's sanity needs be called into question.

Anyone - ANYONE - releasing a top-of-the-line product, and then claiming it's not able to compete in a given market is shooting themselves in the foot... to say nothing of their employees, who create - often painstakingly - that product.

As a businessperson, programmer, and consultant, i have to think twice about tossing support behind SuSE. Until now, i've been a staunch supporter. I like the product. It's the most comprehensive distro on the market. It'll do for damned near any purpose conceivable. But CEO's like Dyroff have a tendency to sabotage such good efforts. Who the hell is he working for - M$??? Or Caldera??

Articles like this are a slap in the face to people who are actively promoting SuSE Linux. I'm sure the companies who are investing huge sums of cash to support the Linux effort don't like it much either.

I dare Dyroff to tell IBM, Intel and a few other major league players that Linux isn't ready for the desktop market. He'll have a great many people to answer to if he does.

Right now, he's not much credit to the company that pays him.

Alpha

alphafemale＠radiant.net

09:08

...

I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

OK, if you think this is so, please be specific. I'm curious as to what cannot be done under Linux. I haven't found anything so far. I can read MS Word documents. I can certainly translate them into hypertext with minimal fuss and time, and relay them back to whomever sent them. I can listen to anything, from MP3's to .wav to .mod files. Hell, I can even produce files in all of those formats. I can set up a network, get mail, and do all manner of thing, both in business-related activity, and in programming. I can get shockwave-enabled web pages. To paraphrase the X-Files, the stuff is out there. Mostly, it's free! I have *completely* supported hardware. The only time this was not the case, i was running a winmodem. Easily rectified, even on a tiny budget. I even hear that drivers for winmodems are in the works. Netscape crashes? Under what conditions? Usually, there are dead-easy solutions/ workarounds. Another milestone, another improvement. <snip> the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy. Let me give you an example of why this is *not* the be all and end-all for businesses: Apple. Runs M$ Office stuff well. Reliable. All kinds of apps available for it. Still struggling to get a bigger slice of the pie. Why? It's easier than any PC to run out of the box... Son, the difference is marketing. Who presents what kind of image to the idiot user. Not the availability of apps, not the idiot-proofness of the system. Marketing. And Dyroff is doing really lousy things to SuSE's image by what he's said. Improve the system? Always...ever since '91. That's what differentiates the Open Source gang from the Microsoft gang. Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready. Alpha -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

josephhy＠wsu.edu

11:34

At the risk of starting a flamewar, I completely agree with Miss Black. I reject the idea that Linux can't compete with M$ on the desktop, especially in a corporate environ ment. As for compatibility with M$ apps, I regularly open my papers that I did on Word 6.0 a few years back, print them, and hand them in this semester as my "research project" using WordPerfect 8 for Linux. And the price was right - free as opposed to $300 - $1,000 for M$ Office. :) Works beautifully. I need Money$uck for two things. One of them is watching my DVD movies (I have an ATI Rage Fury DVD-accelerated video card and ATI has been less than forthcoming with Linux support. If anyone can help out here let me know.) The other is doing my homework for my "Programming with Visual BASIC" course. Don't really have a choice there, do I? And as I mentioned earlier, I'm only a couple of notches above a desktop user. I'm not a hacker by any means. I disgree with Miss Black about the Netscape crashes somewhat - Netscape does crash, but it crashes MUCH less often than Internet Exploder. On another note, I think preconfigured, preloaded Linux boxes would be an excellent choice for users like Susan, the secretary at my church. In her words "I only use a comptuer because I have to and I don't give a shit how it works, just make it work!" Which would be a better choice for the Susans of this world - something that flashes up an "EXPLORER.EXE caused a general protection fault in module 0xblahblahblah . . . "? Or a product that can be left running for years without so much as a restart and that is worlds ahead in stability and security? Make no mistake about it. Linux boxes running X Windows are ready for the desktop and more than ready to supplant anything M$ has to offer. Just my $0.02 worth from a poor college student. SJ Black wrote:

...

...
I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

OK, if you think this is so, please be specific. I'm curious as to what cannot be done under Linux. I haven't found anything so far.

I can read MS Word documents. I can certainly translate them into hypertext with minimal fuss and time, and relay them back to whomever sent them. I can listen to anything, from MP3's to .wav to .mod files. Hell, I can even produce files in all of those formats. I can set up a network, get mail, and do all manner of thing, both in business-related activity, and in programming. I can get shockwave-enabled web pages. To paraphrase the X-Files, the stuff is out there. Mostly, it's free!

I have *completely* supported hardware. The only time this was not the case, i was running a winmodem. Easily rectified, even on a tiny budget. I even hear that drivers for winmodems are in the works.

Netscape crashes? Under what conditions? Usually, there are dead-easy solutions/ workarounds. Another milestone, another improvement.

<snip> the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy.

Let me give you an example of why this is *not* the be all and end-all for businesses: Apple. Runs M$ Office stuff well. Reliable. All kinds of apps available for it. Still struggling to get a bigger slice of the pie. Why? It's easier than any PC to run out of the box...

Son, the difference is marketing. Who presents what kind of image to the idiot user. Not the availability of apps, not the idiot-proofness of the system. Marketing. And Dyroff is doing really lousy things to SuSE's image by what he's said.

Improve the system? Always...ever since '91. That's what differentiates the Open Source gang from the Microsoft gang.

Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready.

Alpha

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-- ____________________ Joseph A. Hylkema josephhy@wsu.edu Check out (and laugh at) my first crack at a website at http://seattle.resnet.wsu.edu All-Time Top Five Country Songs: 5. I Still Miss You Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better 4. Get Your Biscuits In The Oven And Your Buns In Bed 3. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well 2. You Done Tore Out My Heart, And Stomped That Sucker Flat The number one country song of all time: I've Got Tears in My Ears From Lying On My Back While I Cry Over You -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

12:51

Joe Hylkema wrote:

...

At the risk of starting a flamewar, I completely agree with Miss Black. I reject the idea that Linux can't compete with M$ on the desktop, especially in a corporate environ ment.

As for compatibility with M$ apps, I regularly open my papers that I did on Word 6.0 a few years back, print them, and hand them in this semester as my "research project" using WordPerfect 8 for Linux. And the price was right - free as opposed to $300 - $1,000 for M$ Office. :) Works beautifully. I need Money$uck for two things. One of them is watching my DVD movies (I have an ATI Rage Fury DVD-accelerated video card and ATI has been less than forthcoming with Linux support. If anyone can help out here let me know.) The other is doing my homework for my "Programming with Visual BASIC" course. Don't really have a choice there, do I? And as I mentioned earlier, I'm only a couple of notches above a desktop user. I'm not a hacker by any means.

I disgree with Miss Black about the Netscape crashes somewhat - Netscape does crash, but it crashes MUCH less often than Internet Exploder.

On another note, I think preconfigured, preloaded Linux boxes would be an excellent choice for users like Susan, the secretary at my church. In her words "I only use a comptuer because I have to and I don't give a shit how it works, just make it work!" Which would be a better choice for the

Your CHURCH secretary uses that kind of language? I'm stunned. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

genz1968＠mtu-net.ru

22:28

Hello, <snip>

...

...
On another note, I think preconfigured, preloaded Linux boxes would be an excellent choice for users like Susan, the secretary at my church. In her words "I only use a comptuer because I have to and I don't give a shit how it works, just make it work!" Which would be a better choice for the

Your CHURCH secretary uses that kind of language? I'm stunned. JLKSuSE Unfortunate. Hope it is not a reflection of the church's spiritual condition as a whole.

George -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

epcraig＠efn.org

6 Mar 6 Mar

15:16

Hmmmm... Taking the Lord's name in vain, God is...? I can't see scatology as profanity. So what religious injunction would she be violating? (Social, yes, but religious?) On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, George Zeigler wrote:

...

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:28:43 +0300 From: George Zeigler To: SuSE Mailing List Subject: Re: [SLE] CNN, SusE, Lousy PR

Hello,

<snip>

...
...
On another note, I think preconfigured, preloaded Linux boxes would be an excellent choice for users like Susan, the secretary at my church. In her words "I only use a comptuer because I have to and I don't give a shit how it works, just make it work!" Which would be a better choice for the

Your CHURCH secretary uses that kind of language? I'm stunned. JLKSuSE Unfortunate. Hope it is not a reflection of the church's spiritual condition as a whole.

George

-- Ed Craig epcraig@efn.org Taxi Linux FreeBSD Think this through with me, let me know your mind... Hunter/Garcia -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

5 Mar 5 Mar

12:48

SJ Black wrote:

...

...
I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

<snip>

...

Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready.

Exactly. I've been using SuSE and KDE since 5.3 on my desktop. There wasn't an app I was running on Win95 that I couldn't replace with an equal or better Linux version. Applix is an excellent wp. WP8 is indentical on both versions. SO 5.1a reads and writes 99% of Office output. I paid for my copies of Applix and WP8 (to get the manual). WP8 is what we use at work. Avi, you say Linux is not perfect, but are you implying WinXX is? I hope not. Such a statement would only reflect your lack of experience with WinXX or Linux. I'm a professional developer of WinXX apps and I know what the limits are of both Winxx and apps that run under it. In the more than two years I've been running SuSE I have not had the kernel crash once. During that same period I have lost count of the crashs my Win95 workstation at work has suffered. Anywhere from a couple a week to a couple a day. I've installed WinXX more time that I can remember. I don't have a choice. In fact, I lost 1 1/2 days of work last week because I was finally forced to reinstall Win95 and all my tools just to return to some usable level of stability. And I've had to do that more than once in the last three years. Everything is easy, once you know how but, it is a lot easier to install SuSE on a PC from scratch than it is to install WinXX. None of that constant rebooting is required. Our tech support staff are die-hard WinXX advocates, and very good, but they constantly curse WinXX and Gates. I'm the Linux advocate at work. All I do is smile. They know what it means. (BTW, we have begun installing Linux at work. Stability and cost have forced us to do so. It is my guess that within 3 to 5 years we will be totally linux.) My wife knows NOTHING about computers or how to use them. She runs Netscape and the WPs without any trouble. When my wife can do that then the desktop is ready. She don't have to worry about crashing or rebooting. It just doesn't happen. If Netscape crashes, she clears it with ktop and deletes the lock file and fires it again. THe kernel doesn't crash. KDE doesn't crash. They were made for her. Finally, the price is right. And, it will be that right price that switches the market around to Linux. People are tired of paying ever-rising licensing fees to get buggier software and jacking Gates networth to higher billions. Dyroff needs to go through a series of learning session to bring himself up todate on what SuSE and KDE are capable of, and what the current app software can do. He appears to be a couple of years out of sync, especially when his solution to a samba problem was to install NT, not set up samba correctly. Or, he can quit. Just my $0.02 JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

avi＠CFFtechnologies.com

16:35

Jerry, Had you read my message, you would have noticed the fact that I use Linux both at home and at Work (even though, my company's standard is Win9X, and NT). So what do you think are my thoughts about WinXX? I am too a software developer for the last, lets see, 23 years. Avi Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...

Avi, you say Linux is not perfect, but are you implying WinXX is? I hope not. Such a statement would only reflect your lack of experience with WinXX or Linux. I'm a professional developer of WinXX apps and I know what the limits are of both Winxx and apps that run under it. In the more than two years I've been running SuSE I have not had the kernel crash once. During that same period I have lost count of the crashs my Win95 workstation at work has suffered. Anywhere from a couple a week to a couple a day. I've installed WinXX more time that I can remember. I don't have a choice. In fact, I lost 1 1/2 days of work last week because I was finally forced to reinstall Win95 and all my tools just to return to some usable level of stability. And I've had to do that more than once in the last three years. Everything is easy, once you know how but, it is a lot easier to install SuSE on a PC from scratch than it is to install WinXX. None of that constant rebooting is required. Our tech support staff are die-hard WinXX advocates, and very good, but they constantly curse WinXX and Gates. I'm the Linux advocate at work. All I do is smile. They know what it means. (BTW, we have begun installing Linux at work. Stability and cost have forced us to do so. It is my guess that within 3 to 5 years we will be totally linux.)

My wife knows NOTHING about computers or how to use them. She runs Netscape and the WPs without any trouble. When my wife can do that then the desktop is ready. She don't have to worry about crashing or rebooting. It just doesn't happen. If Netscape crashes, she clears it with ktop and deletes the lock file and fires it again. THe kernel doesn't crash. KDE doesn't crash. They were made for her. Finally, the price is right. And, it will be that right price that switches the market around to Linux. People are tired of paying ever-rising licensing fees to get buggier software and jacking Gates networth to higher billions.

Dyroff needs to go through a series of learning session to bring himself up todate on what SuSE and KDE are capable of, and what the current app software can do. He appears to be a couple of years out of sync, especially when his solution to a samba problem was to install NT, not set up samba correctly. Or, he can quit.

Just my $0.02 JLK

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

20:34

Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Jerry,

Had you read my message, you would have noticed the fact that I use Linux both at home and at Work (even though, my company's standard is Win9X, and NT). So what do you think are my thoughts about WinXX? I am too a software developer for the last, lets see, 23 years.

Avi

I noticed those facts, but it still doesn't change the fact that I disagree with your view point! :-) Differences of opinion are what make the world go around. But, if you are trying to represent and sell a product, and you disparage it, you are doing your competitors work at no expense to them, and your product won't remain on the market for long. That's a DUH! BTW, Which tools do you use to develop? Is your output for internal use or does it hit the retail shelves? Let's me recall..... I started my computer training at the Barnes School of Business in Denver, CO, in 1959. The IBM 402 tabulator was about 4'X4'X7' and weighed several tons, which is where the term 'heavy iron' came from. They were programmed by jumping plugs with cables. Later, in graduate school in 1967, I learned Fortran 64 on a CDC 6600, and later a Honeywell 200. KSR-33 keyboards were state of the art. My interests switched to PCs when I purchased the first AppleII+ sold in the state of Nebraska in 1978. Since that time, I have used Apple BASIC, Forth, Pilot, Prolog, Pascal, REV. & ADV. REV., COBOL, C, PB, VB, VFP and some minor languages during the 15 years I had my own consulting business, which I retired in 1995. Currently, I program for the State of Nebraska and all my output is for inhouse use. mmmm.... programming for fun and profit for 41 years. But mostly I program because it is fun. When it stops being fun I will quit. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

avi＠CFFtechnologies.com

22:42

Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...

BTW, Which tools do you use to develop? Is your output for internal use or does it hit the retail shelves?

I work for a consulting company here in Chicago, IL. My current project involves mostly Java which makes my life a whole lot easier since I can use my Linux laptop for the development. I use JBuilder Foundation as the ide/debugger. My previous project involved C++ and Perl. The fun part was that the client for running they .com business on Linux servers so again, I was able to use instead of Windows.

...

Let's me recall..... I started my computer training at the Barnes School of Business in Denver, CO, in 1959. The IBM 402 tabulator was about 4'X4'X7' and weighed several tons, which is where the term 'heavy iron' came from. They were programmed by jumping plugs with cables. Later, in graduate school in 1967, I learned Fortran 64 on a CDC 6600, and

Oh yeah, I remember the big iron, the IBM 360 and the CDC Cybers. I worked on the CDC for about 6 years, all in Fortran and Compass.

...

later a Honeywell 200. KSR-33 keyboards were state of the art. My interests switched to PCs when I purchased the first AppleII+ sold in the state of Nebraska in 1978. Since that time, I have used Apple BASIC, Forth, Pilot, Prolog, Pascal, REV. & ADV. REV., COBOL, C, PB, VB, VFP and some minor languages during the 15 years I had my own consulting business, which I retired in 1995.

My first PC was an Atari 800, then came the first of a long chain of IBM compatibles. Currently I have 3 desktops and 2 laptops. Luckily I have enough room for all of them. -- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

22:55

Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...
BTW, Which tools do you use to develop? Is your output for internal use or does it hit the retail shelves?

I work for a consulting company here in Chicago, IL. My current project involves mostly Java which makes my life a whole lot easier since I can use my Linux laptop for the development. I use JBuilder Foundation as the ide/debugger.

When the Y2K projects came and we had to rewrite a bunch of legacy mainframe COBOL code we decided to dump the mainframe in favor of Oracle 8i on NT servers. We use JBuilder for our front end stuff. Have you taken a look at IBM's ViasualAge for Java? Nice product!

...

My previous project involved C++ and Perl. The fun part was that the client for running they .com business on Linux servers so again, I was able to use instead of Windows.

I think I followed you there... Have you looked at KDevelop yet? VERY NICE!

...

My first PC was an Atari 800, then came the first of a long chain of IBM compatibles. Currently I have 3 desktops and 2 laptops. Luckily I have enough room for all of them.

Do you network them? -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

avi＠CFFtechnologies.com

23:40

Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...

I think I followed you there... Have you looked at KDevelop yet? VERY NICE!

No I didn't have a chance to check it out yet. Hopefully, next weekend.

...

...
My first PC was an Atari 800, then came the first of a long chain of IBM compatibles. Currently I have 3 desktops and 2 laptops. Luckily I have enough room for all of them.

Do you network them?

Yes, they are all networked. One of them is my firewall (running Linux). One is a Windows only machine, used by my wife when she needs to dial into work. She needs a certain terminal emulator to access their AS/400 + the usual MS Office stuff. The larger of them is a dual CPU machine (running Linux) which is my playground. I use it for testing and learning new technologies/software. It has an Oracle 8i/Linux server as well as a DB2/Linux enterprise edition server on it. In the near future I will also install the Domino Server and WebSphere. The older of my laptops is currently just a backup system. My Inspiron i7K is dual booting between Linux and Win98 (when I need to run programs that are not available for Linux, Like MS Office, Rational Rose, etc.) I also have an Amiga that I plan to pull out of retirement, install Linux on it and connect it to the rest of the network. Probably my next project will be to set up a wireless network, so I can easily move some machines around. Some of the servers I don't need in my office, they can sit in the basement and work silently there. It is just that I don't feel like pulling cables all over the place. Avi -- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

23:54

Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...
I think I followed you there... Have you looked at KDevelop yet? VERY NICE!

No I didn't have a chance to check it out yet. Hopefully, next weekend.

...
...
My first PC was an Atari 800, then came the first of a long chain of IBM compatibles. Currently I have 3 desktops and 2 laptops. Luckily I have enough room for all of them.

Do you network them?

Yes, they are all networked. One of them is my firewall (running Linux). One is a Windows only machine, used by my wife when she needs to dial into work. She needs a certain terminal emulator to access their AS/400 + the usual MS Office stuff. The larger of them is a dual CPU machine (running Linux) which is my playground. I use it for testing and learning new technologies/software. It has an Oracle 8i/Linux server as well as a DB2/Linux enterprise edition server on it. In the near future I will also install the Domino Server and WebSphere. The older of my laptops is currently just a backup system. My Inspiron i7K is dual booting between Linux and Win98 (when I need to run programs that are not available for Linux, Like MS Office, Rational Rose, etc.) I also have an Amiga that I plan to pull out of retirement, install Linux on it and connect it to the rest of the network.

Probably my next project will be to set up a wireless network, so I can easily move some machines around. Some of the servers I don't need in my office, they can sit in the basement and work silently there. It is just that I don't feel like pulling cables all over the place.

Avi -- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux

That's a nice sandbox you have there! Since I retired my business I have given away all my computer but one, my Sony VAIO. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

avi＠CFFtechnologies.com

16:46

Sorry, but the ability to read a document or relay it back is different then doing collaborative work on some very large an complex documents. When I talk about complex documents I am talking about documents with embedded graphics, tables, Visio diagrams, VB macros, etc. Anyone that tells me that StarOffice does a very good job with Word/Excell 97 documents didn't use it in the above mentioned scenarios. Sorry. Whether I like Office or not is immaterial. The fact that all 1300 consultants in the company I work for and 100% of our clients use MS office, makes it the de facto standard. Until 1. the standard changes or 2. Linux will get a MS office (Yeah, right), Linux will be considered second rate citizen on the desktop. Sure, you can find your way around many things, but this is not what most end users are looking for. What they want is the ability to run and use the same software they use at work. Avi SJ Black wrote:

...

...
I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

OK, if you think this is so, please be specific. I'm curious as to what cannot be done under Linux. I haven't found anything so far.

I can read MS Word documents. I can certainly translate them into hypertext with minimal fuss and time, and relay them back to whomever sent them. I can listen to anything, from MP3's to .wav to .mod files. Hell, I can even produce files in all of those formats. I can set up a network, get mail, and do all manner of thing, both in business-related activity, and in programming. I can get shockwave-enabled web pages. To paraphrase the X-Files, the stuff is out there. Mostly, it's free!

I have *completely* supported hardware. The only time this was not the case, i was running a winmodem. Easily rectified, even on a tiny budget. I even hear that drivers for winmodems are in the works.

Netscape crashes? Under what conditions? Usually, there are dead-easy solutions/ workarounds. Another milestone, another improvement.

<snip> the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy.

Let me give you an example of why this is *not* the be all and end-all for businesses: Apple. Runs M$ Office stuff well. Reliable. All kinds of apps available for it. Still struggling to get a bigger slice of the pie. Why? It's easier than any PC to run out of the box...

Son, the difference is marketing. Who presents what kind of image to the idiot user. Not the availability of apps, not the idiot-proofness of the system. Marketing. And Dyroff is doing really lousy things to SuSE's image by what he's said.

Improve the system? Always...ever since '91. That's what differentiates the Open Source gang from the Microsoft gang.

Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready.

Alpha

kmoore＠aa.net

17:33

New subject: [SLE] CNN, SuSE, Lousy PR

My question; Could Dorothy from Kansas use SuSE 6.3 and make a living in the Land of OZ? -- Kirk Moore Renton, Wa Black Holes are created when God divides by zero -----Original Message----- From: avi@CFFtechnologies.com [mailto:avi@CFFtechnologies.com] Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 8:46 AM Cc: Suse Linux Mailing List Subject: Re: [SLE] CNN, SusE, Lousy PR Sorry, but the ability to read a document or relay it back is different then doing collaborative work on some very large an complex documents. When I talk about complex documents I am talking about documents with embedded graphics, tables, Visio diagrams, VB macros, etc. Anyone that tells me that StarOffice does a very good job with Word/Excell 97 documents didn't use it in the above mentioned scenarios. Sorry. Whether I like Office or not is immaterial. The fact that all 1300 consultants in the company I work for and 100% of our clients use MS office, makes it the de facto standard. Until 1. the standard changes or 2. Linux will get a MS office (Yeah, right), Linux will be considered second rate citizen on the desktop. Sure, you can find your way around many things, but this is not what most end users are looking for. What they want is the ability to run and use the same software they use at work. Avi SJ Black wrote:

...

...
I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

OK, if you think this is so, please be specific. I'm curious as to what cannot be done under Linux. I haven't found anything so far.

I can read MS Word documents. I can certainly translate them into hypertext with minimal fuss and time, and relay them back to whomever sent them. I can listen to anything, from MP3's to .wav to .mod files. Hell, I can even produce files in all of those formats. I can set up a network, get mail, and do all manner of thing, both in business-related activity, and in programming. I can get shockwave-enabled web pages. To paraphrase the X-Files, the stuff is out there. Mostly, it's free!

I have *completely* supported hardware. The only time this was not the case, i was running a winmodem. Easily rectified, even on a tiny budget. I even hear that drivers for winmodems are in the works.

Netscape crashes? Under what conditions? Usually, there are dead-easy solutions/ workarounds. Another milestone, another improvement.

<snip> the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy.

Let me give you an example of why this is *not* the be all and end-all for businesses: Apple. Runs M$ Office stuff well. Reliable. All kinds of apps available for it. Still struggling to get a bigger slice of the pie. Why? It's easier than any PC to run out of the box...

Son, the difference is marketing. Who presents what kind of image to the idiot user. Not the availability of apps, not the idiot-proofness of the system. Marketing. And Dyroff is doing really lousy things to SuSE's image by what he's said.

Improve the system? Always...ever since '91. That's what differentiates the Open Source gang from the Microsoft gang.

Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready.

Alpha

-- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

21:00

New subject: [SLE] CNN, SuSE, Lousy PR

Kirk Moore wrote:

...

My question;

Could Dorothy from Kansas use SuSE 6.3 and make a living in the Land of OZ?

-- Kirk Moore Renton, Wa

Sure, if she knows her stuff and can sell *herself* she can do anything that man behind the curtian would want her to do! :-) Anyone who has ever earned a living consulting KNOWS that it isn't the tool that your use, it is how well you sell yourself as being able to solve the problem the prospective client is bringing to you! JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

dregiste＠bellsouth.net

21:27

New subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive

I just joined this list and I would like to know if there is a list archive. Perhaps my questions have already been discussed and can be found in the archive. Damon Register -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

nbea＠ecn.ulaval.ca

21:33

New subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive

On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Damon Register wrote: <-]Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:27:36 -0500 <-]From: Damon Register <-]To: suse-linux-e@suse.com <-]Subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive <-] <-]I just joined this list and I would like to know if there is a list <-]archive. Perhaps my questions have already been discussed and can <-]be found in the archive. <-] There's an archive of this list on SuSE's website: www.suse.com Another one is available on www.geocrawler.com ________________ Nicolas Beaulieu Economics Department, Universite Laval Centre de Recherches en Economie et Finances Appliquees (CREFA) Quebec, Canada 418-626-5033 _________________ http://www.penguinpowered.com/~montesquieu mailto:montesquieu@penguinpowered.com ICQ 15933500 ---> http://www.ccfa.org <--- ---> http://www.ccfc.ca <--- _________________ Le Renard: "Voici mon secret. Il est tres simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Le Petit Prince _________________ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

hattons＠CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil

21:58

New subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive

Damon, Click on the FAQ link at the bottom of this mail and you will find an answer to your question. I am somewhat mixed on using the archive verses asking the list. Some lists have a very RTFM culture. Thus far the SuSE list is more RtFM. That is "Read this Fine Manual" with helpful pointers and etc. People tend to help each other in an honest and sincere manner here. If you have a question don't hesitate to look on the archives, but don't feel like you will get flamed if you come right out and ask. It gives us old timers a chance to shine by helping "newbies." Even *I* occasionally have a good answer. Oh, and pay close attention to the return addresses. This list puts the originator and not the list in the *To* field. HTH, Steve Damon Register wrote:

...

I just joined this list and I would like to know if there is a list archive. Perhaps my questions have already been discussed and can be found in the archive.

Damon Register

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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mflores＠uchicago.edu

22:23

New subject: [SLE] Problem Receiving MS Word file attachments through firewall

I still am having problems receiving MS Word file attachments through my firewall. My LAN setup is as follows: NT Server 4.0 server as PDC Windows 98 client computers Linux computer running SuSEfirewall/IPMasquerading/Wvdial.dod (SuSE6.2 kernel 2.2.10) My rc.firewall is simply: FW_START="yes" FW_DEV_WORLD="ppp0" FW_DEV_INT="eth0" FW_ROUTE="yes" FW_MASQUERADE="yes" FW_MASQ_NETS="192.168.1.0/24" FW_MASQ_DEV="$FW_DEV_WORLD" FW_ALLOW_INCOMING_HIGHPORTS_TCP="yes" FW_ALLOW_INCOMING_HIGHPORTS_UDP="yes" FW_MASQ_MODULES="autofw cuseeme ftp irc mfw portfw quake raudio user vdolive" The Linux computer dials the ISP and I am able to send emails, browse the Net, download files (largest was a 15 Mb Netscape install file) in all the Windows computers in the LAN. As a test, I tried sending an email with a 120Kb text file attachment from Win98 computer A to Win98 computer B. Win98 computer B was able to receive the attached file easily. Then, I tried sending another file, this time a 20 Kb MS Word file from Win98 A to Win98 B. However, Win98 B just sits there after downloading about 20% of the Word file. The Win98 computer is no frozen . . . it just seems to be waiting for something . . . Has anybody had the same problems? What's with Word files that my Linux setup (?) does not want or needs? Any help is greatly appreciated. Mac Q. Flores IV LinuxPowered 2.2.10 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

dregiste＠bellsouth.net

11 Mar 11 Mar

13:27

New subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive

"Steven T. Hatton" wrote:

...

answer to your question. I am somewhat mixed on using the archive verses asking the list. Some lists have a very RTFM culture. Thus far I am somewhat mixed on using the list

...

the SuSE list is more RtFM. That is "Read this Fine Manual" with If you get a reply at all

...

on the archives, but don't feel like you will get flamed if you come I am more concerned about getting a useful answer

...

right out and ask. It gives us old timers a chance to shine by helping "newbies." Even *I* occasionally have a good answer. Thanks for the kind words. So far I have not gotten any help on this problem with masquerading in 6.3. except one or two that were rtfm in nature and not really on topic anyway

...

Oh, and pay close attention to the return addresses. This list puts the originator and not the list in the *To* field. I noticed that. I don't understand why we even have to use such an outdated method of communication of this kind of info. There is no excuse for not using a usenet group for this sort of thing

Damon Register -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

abrahams＠valinet.com

17:05

New subject: [SLE] SuSE list archive

Damon Register wrote:

...

...
Oh, and pay close attention to the return addresses. This list puts the originator and not the list in the *To* field. I noticed that. I don't understand why we even have to use such an outdated method of communication of this kind of info. There is no excuse for not using a usenet group for this sort of thing

Usenet groups are all too vulnerable to spam, in two ways. First, the spammers (especially the XXX-Hot-Pics ones) flood the groups with their messages, and since they keep changing their return addresses they aren't easy to filter out. Second, the spammers have an easy time harvesting email addresses from all the posters to the groups. It's too bad that these parasites have ruined what used to be a marvelous thing. Paul Abrahams -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

ethant＠earthlink.net

5 Mar 5 Mar

18:04

On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Sorry, but the ability to read a document or relay it back is different then doing collaborative work on some very large an complex documents. When I talk about complex documents I am talking about documents with embedded graphics, tables, Visio diagrams, VB macros, etc. Anyone that tells me that StarOffice does a very good job with Word/Excell 97 documents didn't use it in the above mentioned scenarios. Sorry.

It seems to me you are saying Linux is not ready for 1) complex electronic publishing scenarios, and 2) it's not ready to interoperate with MS products. It takes a big stretch of the imagination to then say that it is flat out not ready for the desktop. If normal people are using Linux on the desktop then is it not ready for the desktop? I mean, come one, one could easily say that Windows isn't ready for the internet because of it's lack of or poor implementation of common utilities but does that mean nobody is using Windows to access the internet? No. Also, I've worked for small, medium, large, and very large companies in a couple of different industries and at none of them were the documents as complex as you mention above (I'm not saying that they aren't elswhere). Greg -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

keith＠HaggleWare.com

20:17

These rants remind me of a kid I knew in college who swore on his mother that M$ "operating systems" were "superior" to _any_ variant of UNIX. His reasoning was simply that M$ "operating systems" are, well, simple. Any programmer knows that there are tradeoffs to be made during the course of OS design, one of the most common (when is comes to M$, anyway) being efficiency vs ease of use. However M$ has violated one fundamental principle of OS design: a user level program should not be able to fry the OS. I'm a programmer, and considering I'm a newbie on the market I write a lot of bad code. :) Fortunately the code is written on and for Linux; Lord wouldn't be able to count the number of blue screens I would have seen had the development been taking place on a windoze box. Windoze is a buggy environment that breeds buggy code, and the thing that surprises me the most is the sheer number of people that use it; this number is damn close to the number of people that then go on to _complain_ about the problems that go along with, well, using bugs. I have to give some credit to M$ for making a killing on a pile of shit. Win2000 follows along in the great buggy tradition, having 63,000+ bugs a weekend before its release. (there was a reference; if I can find it I'll pass it on) And once again, how is it possible?? Cuz people like it to be "easy". "Easy" sounds too much like "lazy"; they go hand in hand don't they? If the average Joe used even 2 or 3% more of his brain, perhaps he could tolerate learning how to use the keyboard in front of him. In any case, my poor college friend suffered one too many blue screens and found himself learning the ins and outs of Linux. Linux is vastly more stable than Windoze, but more difficult to use. Correct? Yes, OK, so each has its strong point, on either side of that fundamental principle. And it seems to me right now that people find it easier to reach over and press the reset button when they have to, and do an occassional reinstall, than to charge up a few neurons (understanding Linux isn't rocket science). I'm pretty sure this is the case and it's sad because more and more people _are_ aware that there are other, perhaps _much_ better things to use other than Windows. Are people unwilling to learn, or incapable? Or are they merely brainwashed to the point of being afraid of change? I swear, people put way too much faith into these damn machines. kw /* ** Keith Warno ** Make Us An Offer, Inc. ** Real-Time Online Haggling ** http://www.HaggleWare.com/ */ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

gconron＠hfx.andara.com

21:41

On Sun, 05 Mar 2000, Keith Warno wrote:

...

I'm a programmer, and considering I'm a newbie on the market I write a lot of bad code. :) Fortunately the code is written on and for Linux; Lord wouldn't be able to count the number of blue screens I would have seen had the development been taking place on a windoze box. I have to give some credit to M$ for making a killing on a pile of shit.

Boy do I know this feeling - I'm an Oracle DBA by profession, and for some ungodly, unknown reason, the desktop PC's at $PLACE_OF_WORK use Winxx. I cannot count the number of times I have had to have this POS re-ghosted because it started throwing screaming blue fits at me. And, since it is corporate policy to have all desktops conform, I cannot throw a copy of linux on the box. This I cannot understand, as all I need to admin the db is a copy of sqlplus and I'm off and running. But the standard response is that a non-uniform workplace desktop will cause the company expenses. I suppose they don't realize just how much Winxx is costing them in downtime and lost productivity. If the shrink-wrap EULA is ever proven in court to be unenforcable, I think a class-action suit against MS for the billions they have caused business in lost revenue and man hours should be undertaken. Ok, enough ranting. I'm sure everyone here has a similar story about Windows (NT isn't as bad as Win9x, but it still throws up a pretty blue screen when pushed hard). Cheers, GC -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

22:24

Keith Warno wrote:

...

I swear, people put way too much faith into these damn machines.

And we trust them too much, too. The quality of output is no better than the quality of the input. We all know where the input comes from. Error prone humans. Then we start making predictions 50 years into the future and change our present life-styles based on those worthless numbers. JLK

...

kw

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dsoper＠clipper.net

22:45

On 5 Mar 00, at 15:17, Keith Warno wrote:

...

These rants remind me of a kid I knew in college who swore on his mother that M$ "operating systems" were "superior" to _any_ variant of UNIX. His reasoning was simply that M$ "operating systems" are, well, simple.

So, this kid never had to hack the registry, did he? ;) (snip)

...

Linux is vastly more stable than Windoze, but more difficult to use. Correct? Yes, OK, so each has its strong point, on either side of that fundamental principle.

I might tend to disagree here. Windoze is easier to *learn,* but Linux seems to me to be easier to *use,* except possibly in the realm of printing (and emacs-- flame-proof suit on). RPM makes software easier to install and keep track of-- heck, even building a package from a tarball is usually easier than installing on Windoze. The user can't hose the OS without logging in as root. Not to mention those nasty blue screens-- losing a chunk of your work because Windoze upchucks and having to recreate it isn't exactly easy. Just MHO, Dennis "Custard pies are a sort of esperanto: a universal language." --Noel Godin -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

22:59

Dennis Soper wrote:

...

On 5 Mar 00, at 15:17, Keith Warno wrote:

...
These rants remind me of a kid I knew in college who swore on his mother that M$ "operating systems" were "superior" to _any_ variant of UNIX. His reasoning was simply that M$ "operating systems" are, well, simple.

So, this kid never had to hack the registry, did he? ;)

Or install WinXX from scratch.

...

(snip)

...
Linux is vastly more stable than Windoze, but more difficult to use. Correct? Yes, OK, so each has its strong point, on either side of that fundamental principle.

I might tend to disagree here. Windoze is easier to *learn,* but Linux seems to me to be easier to *use,* except possibly in the realm of printing (and emacs-- flame-proof suit on). RPM makes software easier to install and keep track of-- heck, even building a package from a tarball is usually easier than installing on Windoze. The user can't hose the OS without logging in as root.

Not to mention those nasty blue screens-- losing a chunk of your work because Windoze upchucks and having to recreate it isn't exactly easy.

Then there is the problem of MS, or each vendor, supplying a version of some system dll, like comcntl32.dll, and not making it backward compatable, or just flat messing it up. (Except for when M$ deliberately tries to extend or extinquish a competitor). Something always breaks. Ran into this last week. Ended up reinstalling the whole Win95 OS and all my apps. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

20:57

Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Sorry, but the ability to read a document or relay it back is different then doing collaborative work on some very large an complex documents. When I talk about complex documents I am talking about documents with embedded graphics, tables, Visio diagrams, VB macros, etc. Anyone that tells me that StarOffice does a very good job with Word/Excell 97 documents didn't use it in the above mentioned scenarios. Sorry.

Then I won't tell you. Different strokes for different folks.

...

Whether I like Office or not is immaterial. The fact that all 1300 consultants in the company I work for and 100% of our clients use MS office, makes it the de facto standard. Until 1. the standard changes or 2. Linux will get a MS office (Yeah, right), Linux will be considered second rate citizen on the desktop.

Let me guess... The Minneapolis based headhunter, AIC? (They charge the client $60-120/hour and pay you $35-60/hour plus you cover your own expenses.) Your company may have standardized on MS office but that doesn't make it a standard except for your company. Other companies have standardized on WP8 (where I work) and folks work collaboratively using it. Companies are doing the same with SO 5.1a. It depends on what you are used to and what you can afford. The 'afford' thing is going to loom large when folks realize how expensive in software, licenses and hardware upgrading to Win2000 will be. Also, people have to standardize on the same version of Word because of data structure incompatibilities created by MS to force them to 'upgrade $$$'. So the idea of 'standardization' is not realized in a totally MS shop either, unless you freeze at a version or pay the price. Linux will never get APIs that will allow running MS office on a Linux platform. To be compatible with MS would require that the API's perform the same on both platforms. Who would want to deliberately install buggy APIs in order to reproduce a WinXX environment? That's like putting a Ugo engine in a Saturn.

...

Sure, you can find your way around many things, but this is not what most end users are looking for. What they want is the ability to run and use the same software they use at work.

Not necessarily, unless they are doing office work on their PCs at home. Then the question of costs arise again. Does the company pay for two sets of software and licenses so the employee can work at work and at home? Or, does the employee bootleg a copy on her home PC, without without a wink from the boss? Does the company pay for the hardware upgrade on the home PC? Bogus, my friend. I would guesstimate that less than 10% of employees (not counting self-employed consultants) in the public sector are supported at home by their employer. Network connections from home to work are too slow or, if fast, too expense for generalized use. Except for programmers like you and me, few want or will bring their work home at night. When your headhunters see the paradigm ground shift they will change faster than you can say "Linux". BTW, Avi, have you checked out KDevelop 1.0? It is a really sweet C++ GUI RAD tool! JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

hattons＠CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil

23:32

Avi, I am in full agreement with your position here. There are many capabilities that the Linux desktop lacks. I have been running the KDE since it was in Alpha. StarOffice is unstable for me, and it is not as powerful as MS-Office. I personally don't like Word, but there are many powerful things you can do with it. As just one example of what one can do with MS Office which we cannot do with Linux is this: I opened my Datek account in IE and swiped across the table showing my current holdings and their status. I copied this directly to an Excell spreadsheet. Excell accepted the data perfectly, and even colored the fields as they are colored in the Datek page. It is generally much easier to import data into Excell than it is into SO. Microsoft has accomplished many of their powerful functionality using COM, as I understand things. Koffice is building on CORBA which is an open standard counterpart to COM. Another promising development is JB and EJB. This new OO technology may prove to be powerful enough to give MS a run for their money. As regards interoperability, this is an old MS tactic. It is clear to reasonable minds that MS regularly released "upgrades" that prevented interoperablility with other products, e.g., Word verses WordPerfect. I believe many of the forms of data used in internetworking communications should be standardized around something like XML. If someone wants to extend XML for their own needs, there should be a standard way to communicate the extensions to users regardless of platform. My first real experience with computers came in 1980 outside a little town called Ansbach in Bavaria. I was the first soldier in the US Army to field the Hawk IPAR with its new digital signal processor components. I had a total of five years of experience with the Hawk System. After several years of pushing pencils to solve physics problems I returned to computers. Starting in 1992 I have built and installed hundreds of PC workstations, dozens of Novell, NT, and Unix servers, and currently work on a very sophisticated engineering project. I spend about 80 hours a week at a keyboard, or otherwise involved with computers. I have supported hundreds of end users, and I use computers for every aspect of my life except for the three Ss in the morning (Defecating, Showering, and Shaving). I have worked with NT since it was in early beta. For many day-to-day functions Win32 is more convenient and powerful than Linux. There are some very nice things about the Linux Desktop (KDE) that are superior to MS, but the range of functionality supported by MS is superior. Here is another hopeful project for bridging the MS Linux divide: http://www.winehq.com/ As for Roland Dyroff's comments, I think he is doing something that many people in the IT industry don't do; he is telling the truth. Joke: Q: what's the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman? A: A used car salesman knows when he's lying! Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

Sorry, but the ability to read a document or relay it back is different then doing collaborative work on some very large an complex documents. When I talk about complex documents I am talking about documents with embedded graphics, tables, Visio diagrams, VB macros, etc. Anyone that tells me that StarOffice does a very good job with Word/Excell 97 documents didn't use it in the above mentioned scenarios. Sorry.

Whether I like Office or not is immaterial. The fact that all 1300 consultants in the company I work for and 100% of our clients use MS office, makes it the de facto standard. Until 1. the standard changes or 2. Linux will get a MS office (Yeah, right), Linux will be considered second rate citizen on the desktop.

Sure, you can find your way around many things, but this is not what most end users are looking for. What they want is the ability to run and use the same software they use at work.

Avi

SJ Black wrote:

...
...
I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up.

OK, if you think this is so, please be specific. I'm curious as to what cannot be done under Linux. I haven't found anything so far.

I can read MS Word documents. I can certainly translate them into hypertext with minimal fuss and time, and relay them back to whomever sent them. I can listen to anything, from MP3's to .wav to .mod files. Hell, I can even produce files in all of those formats. I can set up a network, get mail, and do all manner of thing, both in business-related activity, and in programming. I can get shockwave-enabled web pages. To paraphrase the X-Files, the stuff is out there. Mostly, it's free!

I have *completely* supported hardware. The only time this was not the case, i was running a winmodem. Easily rectified, even on a tiny budget. I even hear that drivers for winmodems are in the works.

Netscape crashes? Under what conditions? Usually, there are dead-easy solutions/ workarounds. Another milestone, another improvement.

<snip> the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy.

Let me give you an example of why this is *not* the be all and end-all for businesses: Apple. Runs M$ Office stuff well. Reliable. All kinds of apps available for it. Still struggling to get a bigger slice of the pie. Why? It's easier than any PC to run out of the box...

Son, the difference is marketing. Who presents what kind of image to the idiot user. Not the availability of apps, not the idiot-proofness of the system. Marketing. And Dyroff is doing really lousy things to SuSE's image by what he's said.

Improve the system? Always...ever since '91. That's what differentiates the Open Source gang from the Microsoft gang.

Believe it or not, it's ready. Not perfect, but ready.

Alpha

-- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux

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JerryKreps＠alltel.net

23:52

"Steven T. Hatton" wrote:

...

I spend about 80 hours a week at a keyboard, or otherwise involved with computers.

Do you know how long you can burn the candle at both ends? One wick. :-) JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

grtoft＠yahoo.com

13:00

Hi, Avi, Avi Schwartz wrote:

...

I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up. I love Linux and I use it as my main platform both at home and at work but I have to agree that Linux is not quite ready for the desktop. It is coming close, but it is not there yet.

That depends on whose desktop you are referring to. Most corporations have an IT department to configure software and hardware for the users. If a company deploys Linux, they should hire Linux administrators. Likewise, if they deploy NT on the desktop, they usually hire MCP's or MCSE's. What Linux is not ready for is the so-called "power user" who downloads some gee-whiz GUITweeker from download.com, changes to look of his screen and thinks he's a Guru. This individual will try to install Linux and destroy everything (because he knows all about computers and therefore does not need to read anything), and blames Linux for corrupting his data when the readme clearly said to run scandisk and defrag first. My wife doesn't give two hoots about the OS. She can use Linux like a pro because the GUI is similar to Windows and StarOffice works just like MS Office. It prints when she clicks on the printer icon. (The virtual desktops still confuses her, though.)

...

For example, to be ready for the desktop it must have, among other things, the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy. Whether we like it or not, that is what 95% of

With this criteria, Microsoft Word is not ready for the desktop. Have you ever taken a Word 6 file and loaded it into Word 97? Only if it is a simple one-page memo do I get 100% accuracy. I have fewer problems with a StarOffice generated document saved as Word - here I only have to replace the smiley-face bullets with real bullets and it's good to go.

...

businesses are using today, and that it what people use at home, since they need to ability to exchange documents between work and home. I am yet to find a program that can handle Office documents with 100% accuracy, or even 75% accuracy. I have tried them all, WP, StarOffice, Applix, Abi Word.

I write Linux articles for two technical newspapers in Hawaii using StarOffice on Linux. I save them in Word 6 format, and my editors have NEVER once mentioned any problems with the format or the text. I've collaborated with others who used Word 97, and I've been fully functional with StarOffice. Accuracy was not a problem, and this was 18 months ago.

...

Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation. The difference is, that when you buy a computer today, %99.99 of them come pre installed with Windows, not Linux. The users don't have to install anything, which makes Linux by definition harder to install.

Installing Linux is much easier than Windows. I've installed each several dozen times. Installing Linux is about as difficult as installing NT. But you compare apples to oranges. Sit a user in front of a Linux box and a Windows box and ask them which is harder to install? Will they know? No. Give a person a computer with a blank hard drive and a CD-ROM, the Windows 95 disks and a Linux CD, and I'll put money on Linux. Why? Because Windows 95 CD is not bootable, and Microsoft forgot to put the CD-ROM drivers on the floppy. Most Linux CD's are bootable.

...

Instead of crying for Mr. Dyroff's head, we should all thank him for being sincere. We are getting enough lies from Microsoft, we don't need to hear them from the makers of our favorite distribution. By opening our eyes to the weaknesses in Linux, the truth allows us to improve the operating system.

There is a way of being sincere without demoralizing your loyal clientelle and your employees, and this was not it. The leader of any group should show full support for the group and what the group is doing. How many wars were won when the Generals said "We shouldn't be here." Not too many, because like snow, bad morale avalanches as it falls, and these type of comments can seriously demoralize a company, which adversely affects product value and performance. Enough. George -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

dsoper＠clipper.net

19:37

On 5 Mar 00, at 3:00, George Toft wrote:

...

...
Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation.

And then there's Corel Linux. As much as I dislike the distro, you'll have to admit that it's easier to install than DOS. Cheers, Dennis "Custard pies are a sort of esperanto: a universal language." --Noel Godin -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

gconron＠hfx.andara.com

21:36

On Sun, 05 Mar 2000, Dennis Soper wrote:

...

On 5 Mar 00, at 3:00, George Toft wrote:

...
...
Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation.

And then there's Corel Linux. As much as I dislike the distro, you'll have to admit that it's easier to install than DOS.

However, Corel is rapidly proving itself to be a very buggy, seriously unsecure distro. Seems in the last few weeks several major security flaws have presented themselves, and many reports are speaking of the many shortcomings of the distro. Perhaps if Corel had opened the source up during development and beta testing, it would be better than it currently is. Cheers, GC -- Gregory Conron gconron@hfx.andara.com - email (902) 443-4562 - voicemail -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

22:36

Gregory Conron wrote:

...

On Sun, 05 Mar 2000, Dennis Soper wrote:

...
On 5 Mar 00, at 3:00, George Toft wrote:

...
...
Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation.

And then there's Corel Linux. As much as I dislike the distro, you'll have to admit that it's easier to install than DOS.

However, Corel is rapidly proving itself to be a very buggy, seriously unsecure distro. Seems in the last few weeks several major security flaws have presented themselves, and many reports are speaking of the many shortcomings of the distro. Perhaps if Corel had opened the source up during development and beta testing, it would be better than it currently is.

Cheers, GC -- Gregory Conron gconron@hfx.andara.com - email (902) 443-4562 - voicemail

Right, Greg. Probably by 6.4 SuSE will have a graphical install that will exceed Corel's ease and feel. SuSE and Mandrake are the two highest qualitied distros for Linux, IMO. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

genz1968＠mtu-net.ru

21:17

...

I don't understand what the noise is all about. Roland Dyroff is right about every point he brought up. I love Linux and I use it as my main platform both at home and at work but I have to agree that Linux is not quite ready for the desktop. It is coming close, but it is not there yet. For example, to be ready for the desktop it must have, among other things, the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) with 100% accuracy. This is just a ridiculous comment. Must? If 100% accuracy is the necessary absolute, then Linux in your view will never be desktop ready. MS is not going to be this helpful to Linux. If a company has 1,000 computers, I think it is going to be tempting to go Linux, and install Star Office on each computer, free. Especially, if the computers are located in distant locations like hotels and chains such as WalMart, etc. Simply keep Windows on one of the computers in the network,for documents and excell files

...

Whether we like it or not, that is what 95% of businesses are using today, and that it what people use at home, since they need to ability to exchange documents between work and home. You base your premise on the people first, companies second in changing to Linux. Yes this would be a hindrance, as a secretay would have to think twice about using a system at home, which her company does not use. Not to mention, being able to borrow programs for her own

...

I am yet to find a program that can handle Office documents with 100% accuracy, or even 75% accuracy. I have tried them all, WP, StarOffice, Applix, Abi Word. From what I read, you deal with very complicated documents such as

...

Linux installation: I believe that today, with some distributions, the installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation. The difference is, that when you buy a computer today, %99.99 of them come pre installed with Windows, not Linux. The users don't have to install anything, which makes Linux by definition harder to install. True. When I walk into MicroCenter for instance, I like to ask if they have a computer with Linux preinstalled, even though I know the answer is no. I think this day will come, but I'm wondering how stores will handle distro problems. I would want to walk into the store and purchase SuSE preinstalled, not RedHat or Debian, etc. Dell is selling computers with RedHat preinstalled, only to companies at this point I think, not to individuals. Well I would want SuSE

Hello, Sun, 05 Mar 2000, ÷Ù ÎÁÐÉÓÁÌÉ: that just won't open in Star Office. personal install. But companies are converting to Linux, albeit slowly. Once the company converts, the employee is free to follow if he/she so chooses. So this is what blows your premise. Companies go first, employees are free to go second. form documents. These types of companies would have to include in their feasibility studies the cost of recreating form documents all over again in another processor. The nice thing is that this cost can be calculated and understood. And perhaps one day for companies such as yours, the pluses of changing systems willl become to much to ignore. As for me, haven't had a problem yet opening a Word document. But if I do, it can be sent to me in RTF. I can see the point with excell files. If an excel file doesn't open, then what? Solution, keep a computer around with Windows installed. Not a solution for every company, but for some this would work. preinstalled.

...

Instead of crying for Mr. Dyroff's head, we should all thank him for being sincere. To say it's not ready for the desktop is too general. There are companies who need simple word processing and spreadsheet abilities, and can get this with Star Office. And if they have a problem with a Word or Excel file, they can keep Windows on one of their computers for conversion use. Sure this won't work for many companies such as yours and the ones with which you do business, but for some it will work. And some is how Linux keeps moving forward, some after some if you will.

...

We are getting enough lies from Microsoft, we don't need to hear them from the makers of our favorite distribution. First, get this guy out of public relations. He is an idiot for the words he chose in expressing his thoughts. Second, it's not a lie. It is ready for the desktop, just not for every company and individual. But for "some more" it is, and "some more" is more than the year before.

...

By opening our eyes to the weaknesses in Linux, the truth allows us to improve the operating system. You give an all or nothing arguement. To cut and dried.

George

...

Avi

SJ Black wrote:

...
Hello, all -

OK, I've gone over the CNN article. About a 1/2 dozen times.

Dyroff's sanity needs be called into question.

Anyone - ANYONE - releasing a top-of-the-line product, and then claiming it's not able to compete in a given market is shooting themselves in the foot... to say nothing of their employees, who create - often painstakingly - that product.

As a businessperson, programmer, and consultant, i have to think twice about tossing support behind SuSE. Until now, i've been a staunch supporter. I like the product. It's the most comprehensive distro on the market. It'll do for damned near any purpose conceivable. But CEO's like Dyroff have a tendency to sabotage such good efforts. Who the hell is he working for - M$??? Or Caldera??

Articles like this are a slap in the face to people who are actively promoting SuSE Linux. I'm sure the companies who are investing huge sums of cash to support the Linux effort don't like it much either.

I dare Dyroff to tell IBM, Intel and a few other major league players that Linux isn't ready for the desktop market. He'll have a great many people to answer to if he does.

Right now, he's not much credit to the company that pays him.

Alpha

-- Avi Schwartz Get a Life avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux

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abrahams＠valinet.com
alphafemale＠radiant.net
avi＠CFFtechnologies.com
dregiste＠bellsouth.net
dsoper＠clipper.net
epcraig＠efn.org
ethant＠earthlink.net
gconron＠hfx.andara.com
genz1968＠mtu-net.ru
grtoft＠yahoo.com
hattons＠CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil
JerryKreps＠alltel.net
josephhy＠wsu.edu
keith＠HaggleWare.com
kmoore＠aa.net
mflores＠uchicago.edu
nbea＠ecn.ulaval.ca
steganos1＠home.com