On 09/07/2013 08:41 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 07/09/13 23:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

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Hi,

Years ago I remember that hard disks had to be positioned horizontally, printed board facing down. The documentation said so. If you wanted to place them vertically, the documentation also specified which face had to look down, but warned that the wear would be worse.

So I always put them horizontally, without thinking.

But I'm about to place one vertically, and I don't see any mention of this in the documentation. Have things changed, or have I missed something in the docs?

I'm using seagate:

Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 (AF) Device Model: ST500DM002-1BD142

Put the HDD vertically - either side to the side, makes no difference.

The read/write head rides on a cushion of air so it makes no difference if the HDD is horizontal or vetical. What applies to the old floppy disks applies to HDDs.

BC

I have one computer that the only place you can put the drive is vertical, unless you put the computer on it's side. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/09/13 09:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Saturday, 2013-09-07 at 23:41 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

The read/write head rides on a cushion of air so it makes no difference if the HDD is horizontal or vetical.

I was thinking about the bearings.

Are the wheel bearings on your bicycle or your car horizontal or vertical? :-) BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3, KDE 4.11.1 & kernel 3.11.0-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2013-09-08 at 11:32 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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I was thinking about the bearings.

Are the wheel bearings on your bicycle or your car horizontal or vertical? :-)

I have seen machinery stop when changed position. It depends what they are designed to do. I remember a project I was involved with, a rotating and tilting platform, that moved easily when horizontal, and stuck when reached about 30 degrees. We had to buy motors 10 times bigger than designed, and step motors had a size limit. Not even the manufacturer was aware of the problem, because that machinery was designed for heavy motors: if the torque increased, they just slowed down. For us, too much torque and the step motors started loosing steps. Disastrous. (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:10inchRotaryTable.jpg) I just wanted confirmation that my recolection of "vertical HD = no" is unfounded nowdays. Just in case :-) Maybe, just maybe, a disk designed for 20000 hours would last 15000 if placed vertical. Or maybe 25000. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIsZt8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X91ACeLAHrJxQGdNlX1wsI2Ms6a+VV GAgAoJVS8Ba60FU793ArnRkDrY20+GGO =2oXq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2013-09-08 at 15:03 +0200, jdd wrote:

speaking of Hard drives, did you notice that "USB *docks" have vertical disks, connectors in the bottom

Yep. I have one.

no problem at all (I have two in front of me)

No proof. I use it only temporarily. I'm the type of engineer that always thinks how things will surely go bad. >:-P (not only "may". Those "may" loom big ahead for me O:-) )

and about gyroscopic effect what can be seen is difficulty to rotate the box. If the disk spins and you try to rotate it (try with small usb ones), it may "resist". However I do not notice such thing in my own (probably to light)

Yes, the force is weak. Although they spin fast... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIu/DUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Xy5gCfY8T6FlSfdGml3F60hGWZt9Kg pX8Ani5GgnyG7S9UhGDz4sD6DdNWoeQV =oBU6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-09-10 at 15:58 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:

If you pick up a spinning 3 1/2 drive and try to rotate, you will feel the gyroscopic force. It's not overwhelming, but it is a surprise the first time it happens to you.

I don't know that it is a bad idea to trigger that opposing force, but it sure feels like you're doing something wrong when it happens.

It should be OK, doing it few times. It surely stresses the bearings, it is like having the laptop running in a train or car: there are accelerations. Repetitive stressing should diminish life. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIvlBsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XpeACeOu0/CJ92qNAJdZySRy4jeU16 E4YAn1ISCJwAkfiFSTxGrB6+Yv8/ZIa3 =jyap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dylan wrote:

Just don't change the axis while they're spinning...

Dx

Easier said than done with laptops. If a laptop is running and I have to move it I try to keep the main body flat. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Dylan To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Hard disks in vertical position? Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 14:52:57 +0100 On 07/09/13 14:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Hi,

Years ago I remember that hard disks had to be positioned horizontally, printed board facing down. The documentation said so. If you wanted to place them vertically, the documentation also specified which face had to look down, but warned that the wear would be worse.

So I always put them horizontally, without thinking.

But I'm about to place one vertically, and I don't see any mention of this in the documentation. Have things changed, or have I missed something in the docs?

It doesn't matter how they're oriented so long as the drive spindle is horizontal OR vertical - gyroscopic effects will ensure the platters spin true and the heads ride on an air cushion (thanks to Bernoulli). In fact, they would probably be fine at skew angles too, but I'm not going to make a definitive comment on that. Just don't change the axis while they're spinning... -----Original Message----- Last decade hard drives did became more robust. Even when moving along with a spinning drive is not advisable, it is hardly to avoid with laptops. Regarding desktop/servers, its position is less relevant than other options: - enough cool air - avoiding trembling (resonance) caused by other disks - stable enough PSU hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, September 07, 2013 07:17:14 PM Istvan Gabor wrote:

2013. szeptember 7. 15:11 napon "Carlos E. R." írta:

...

Years ago I remember that hard disks had to be positioned horizontally, printed board facing down. The documentation said so. If you wanted to place them vertically, the documentation also specified which face had to look down, but warned that the wear would be worse.

So I always put them horizontally, without thinking.

But I'm about to place one vertically, and I don't see any mention of this in the documentation. Have things changed, or have I missed something in the docs?

I'm using seagate:

Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 (AF) Device Model: ST500DM002-1BD142

Hello:

HP Proliant microserver has slots for hard disk in vertical position. Therefore I think either horizontal or vertical position is OK.

We use a few chassis where the disks are mounted vertical. These are used in vehicles on roads of varying quality, meaning they have been exposed to various influences all the time. So far we have not had a problem. -- Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer Ramböll RST / Systems Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/09/13 22:42, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Saturday, September 07, 2013 07:17:14 PM Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

2013. szeptember 7. 15:11 napon "Carlos E. R." írta:

...

Years ago I remember that hard disks had to be positioned horizontally, printed board facing down. The documentation said so. If you wanted to place them vertically, the documentation also specified which face had to look down, but warned that the wear would be worse.

So I always put them horizontally, without thinking.

But I'm about to place one vertically, and I don't see any mention of this in the documentation. Have things changed, or have I missed something in the docs?

I'm using seagate:

Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 (AF) Device Model: ST500DM002-1BD142 Hello:

HP Proliant microserver has slots for hard disk in vertical position. Therefore I think either horizontal or vertical position is OK. We use a few chassis where the disks are mounted vertical. These are used in vehicles on roads of varying quality, meaning they have been exposed to

various influences all the time. So far we have not had a problem. Roger,

Do you use normal drives? Or laptop drives?

Laptop drives are designed to take more physical abuse.

Greg

'Laptop drives designed to take more physical abuse'?! What do you actually mean by "physical abuse"? I am looking right now at a Seagate HDD in one of my computers and the label on the HDD states that the warranty on it is void if the HDD is subjected to more than 350Gs of shock! :-) So are you saying that the laptop drives can take even more abuse that this? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3, KDE 4.11.1 & kernel 3.11.1-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/09/2013 15:40, Greg Freemyer a écrit :

It could be that a modern 3 1/2 platter is also robust and able to withstand a low-flying head bouncing off of it every now and then.

very low, then. this is what I found, opening a damged disk, taken from a laptop that was not really visibly damaged: http://dodin.org/piwigo/picture.php?/52841/search/131 http://dodin.org/piwigo/picture.php?/49654/search/131 and the plate is glass (One can see throught it, where the head did erase the magnetic part. And to be sure I broke apart the other plate, it's tempered glass (only one plate was damaged) you can listen to the noise here http://dodin.org/piwigo/picture.php?/55540/search/131 jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/09/13 18:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I "destroyed" a HD on a desktop by banging my fist once on the table. Immediately I had read errors and a region was unreadable.

I "destroyed" a HD in my laptop by banging my fist once on the... laptop. I had read errors though I later managed to zone off the damaged part and still use the drive as external storage with no problems. Following that incident I resolved to banging the table instead of the laptop. Evidently from your post, however, I need to identify a new fist-banging location entirely air-gapped from the laptop. Current frontrunner is my flatmate's face. They already have enough bad sectors that nobody will notice :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/09/13 01:40, Greg Freemyer wrote: <much trimmage>

It could be that a modern 3 1/2 platter is also robust and able to withstand a low-flying head bouncing off of it every now and then. That is why I asked.

I once saw the head-clearance challenge described as not unlike trying to fly a Boeing 747 at 600 knots half-an-inch clear of the ground ... -- Robin K Wellington "Harbour City" New Zealand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

...

I once saw the head-clearance challenge described as not unlike trying to fly a Boeing 747 at 600 knots half-an-inch clear of the ground ...

thery do this each time they land or take off :-)

I doubt you'll see many 747s taking off or landing at 600 knots. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday, September 16, 2013 08:42:18 AM Greg Freemyer wrote:

Roger,

Do you use normal drives? Or laptop drives?

Laptop drives are designed to take more physical abuse.

Standard SATA disk drives. Nothing special. They are mainly writing as they are in data collection systems. -- Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer Ramböll RST / Systems Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2013-09-07 at 14:51 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

On 09/07/2013 06:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Once asked a Hard Disk tech support guy (Hitachi) and he said any orientation except upside down (meaning label side down). This was specific to his drives, and had to do with the type of bearings used.

Makes sense.

This was back in the 90's so it probably doesn't matter these days.

Probably so. Then the note I read about the position of the disk is probably obsolete and applied to that brand and model and not to others. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIrsOMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VWYgCeMzAZmn9kC/8gXpmb0udnZDGx cCoAnjgWMN+tNXX/NJh3Rxz/VOBrXfas =IgTI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2013-09-07 at 19:32 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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Then the note I read about the position of the disk is probably obsolete and applied to that brand and model and not to others.

Dell apparently isn't afraid of selling PCs with HDs installed upside down by design. I have one, an Optiplex GX270 SFF, which when used with optional stand orients the HD and DVD on their sides, otherwise DVD right side up and HD upside down. I have at least two different models of external drive case that induce upside down use as well, with a fan aimed at the bottom of the HD such that few would place the case in use with the fan blocked by the surface on which placed in order to have the HD right side up.

In this case, I can place it both ways, horizontal or vertical. It is an external unit besides a laptop on a table. But vertical has the advantage, besides using less "table", that self cooling is better. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIsZ38ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vx/gCfcHvSrAB+zLQorkDnYK2g7rSz DpkAn3PLmGeVQ8Uh/Ai9pROtZlb+kmoN =eEGq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko wrote:

On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 15:11:34 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

But I'm about to place one vertically, and I don't see any mention of this in the documentation. Have things changed, or have I missed something in the docs?

Last few desktops I had, all had vertical orientation of HDs, with no special hard disks inside. The only thing I haven't seen, are upside down installed HDs.

I think a Sun Fire x4500 has that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org