I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer. Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting? More info on this subject: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html houghi -- If you give Congress a chance to vote on both sides of an issue, it will always do it. -- Les Aspin, D., Wisconsin
Hi, On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, houghi wrote:
I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer.
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
Yes, very much recommended here. Let anyone ask "why", and I 'll explode. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
houghi schreef:
I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer.
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
More info on this subject: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Please, bottom posting! I've been mailing top-posters off-list for the past few days, because it's driving me nuts. Same goes for HTML by the way. Can this information be included in the list welcome message? Hell, why not automatically bounce (or filter) HTML posts? My € 0.02 -Lode
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change. Top-posting has become almost the norm with most people nowadays. HTML posting (which I probably am, by the way) is also accepted, especially in the US. With over 250 messages in *THIS* inbox (and this is not my main account) every day, having a cable connection is nearly mandatory. I have so many threads that it's nearly impossible for me to read all of them by going through ALL the way, and scrolling to the bottom. There's no way I could or would be on this list on dialup. English is a top-to-bottom language, rather than the other way around. Nettiquette has *CHANGED* in recent years, due to people's actions. If the server filtered HTML and converted to plaintext, and that's what the people at Novell wanted, that would probably be fine. E-mail clients are so sophisticated (and have been for nearly ten years now) that they can accept plaintext AND HTML. My client (Thunderbird) sends out both if set that way. The bottom-posters are the squeakiest wheels. They point to established nettiquette that's been around for twenty years, as people *USED* to be on 300/1200/2400 baud, and it was polite both to bottom post AND TO SNIP. They are the most vocal bunch. In my experience, top-posters like myself look at this and just shrug, and go about it in our usual way. Top-posters don't generally *care* about whether or not it's in HTML either, because 99% of e-mail IS in HTML format. Bandwidth considerations make this almost trivial in the US. I know - there are a few COUNTRIES on the planet (generally extremely small countries) where only dialup exists, and certain countries like Australia have bandwidth caps in most cases, etc., but by and large people in the US are so used to it (and make up a majority in many cases) that it will continue unabated. Not making a statement pro or con, just stating. Unless the list is moderated and top OR bottom posting is specifically enforced, it's banging your head against the wall to try to police the top-posters, as we number in the billions. Remember, people go with what seems *natural* rather than what is dictated in most cases. Top-posting is a product of English (and many languages around the world) starting top-to-bottom, left to right. I know some languages like Hebrew follow different rules, too, but this list seems to be mostly in English. If there were a specific format chosen by Novell, and the list was moderated, it's nearly impossible to force people one way or the other. Just my 2¢. RP Lode Vermeiren wrote:
houghi schreef:
I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer.
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
More info on this subject: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Please, bottom posting! I've been mailing top-posters off-list for the past few days, because it's driving me nuts.
Same goes for HTML by the way. Can this information be included in the list welcome message? Hell, why not automatically bounce (or filter) HTML posts?
My € 0.02
-Lode
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards jdd -- pour m'écrire, aller sur: http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.net http://arvamip.free.fr
I understand that, I was *POINTING OUT INFORMATION*. Please read entire post. Also - "standards" are what keep modems in the US at 56K, even though the EXACT SAME WIRING can handle DSL! It's the LAW in the US. As the US goes, so goes the world, otherwise we'd have greater than 56K modems everywhere else. Speeds are *actually* limited to 53K but that's another story. Initially the laws were passed because the telcos were afraid that faster modems would burn up not the wiring but the switching mechanisms. This has been solved with better equipment, but now we are stuck with a *STANDARD* that is motivated by laziness on the part of the US telcos, and it's further perpetuated by everyone else on the planet. In other words, "We do it this way because we've always done it this way." I don't subscribe to it, and neither do a LOT of people. In fact, rebelling against that attitude is why so many people switch to Linux. If enough people lobbied their congressmen about this in the US, the law could be changed. Imagine DSL speeds over regular phone lines, utilizing current POTS. Easy enough - just change a couple of chips in already incredibly inexpensive modems. It could be done easily and it wouldn't be TOO expensive for the ISPs. Not to mention they could charge for it, etc. If the US got 1.5 meg dialup modems, you can bet the rest of the world would follow. So again, I point out the WHY things are the way they are. I understand, not everyone has DSL (or even the faster cable). But people in the US do, and they tend to spend more time online (and posting) than others do. TEND to. Realize that if you continue to be the posting police when there is no official policy from Novell, you're mostly wasting your time, as people WILL continue. And top-posting has ZERO to do with having a 56K dialup connection. It takes LONGER to read messages that are bottom-posted. (Scrolling MANDATORY vs. no scrolling UNLESS you want to see the rest of the context.) Then there are middle-posters, an entirely different animal. Snipping, however, should be taken seriously. That's a bigger waste of bandwidth. As far as servers and space, the world no longer runs mostly on 386s and 486s. I have three 100 gig HDDs in my notebook - they are no longer expensive. Desktop machines under $1000 can EASILY have 300 gig drives, the least expensive Dell I could find was $599, 15" flat panel included, free S/H, and an 80 gig drive. Yes, much larger and greater quantities of e-mail are handled than were 10 years ago. But the handling equipment is larger and faster as well. RP jdd wrote:
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards
jdd
I'm probably feeding trolls here, but here goes..
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards
jdd
In other words, "We do it this way because we've always done it this way." I don't subscribe to it, and neither do a LOT of people. In fact, rebelling against that attitude is why so many people switch to Linux. If enough people lobbied their congressmen about this in the US, the law could be changed. Imagine DSL speeds over regular phone lines, utilizing current POTS. Easy enough - just change a couple of chips in already incredibly inexpensive modems. It could be done easily and it wouldn't be TOO expensive for the ISPs. Not to mention they could charge for it, etc.
Isn't that the whole point of DSL? DSL doesn't 'just' require replacing 'a couple of chips' to magically get higher speeds. It requires DSLAMs, a backbone that is ready for the high speeds (ie., fiber up to the local exchange, and just DSL for the 'last mile'). But that's not really the point of this discussion.
And top-posting has ZERO to do with having a 56K dialup connection. It takes LONGER to read messages that are bottom-posted. (Scrolling MANDATORY vs. no scrolling UNLESS you want to see the rest of the context.)
On a mailing list you are not mailing back and forth with your colleague about what to do for lunch. Context is essential here. If I want to re-read a discussion on a mailing list a few months from now and everybody top posted, I'd get RSI from just scrolling back and forth trying to comprehend the context. If everybody bottom-posted, I can just read from top to bottom. (Because English is a top to bottom language, like you said). Anyway, this argument has been beaten to death, and I haven't seen a single reasonable argument for top posting. If you want to continue your top-posting html mails I can't stop you, but don't expect (m)any more replies from me, and apparantly from lots of other subscribers. L.
On Friday 12 August 2005 9:00 am, jdd wrote:
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards
jdd
Really, I have asdl mysel but can't stand html posts and really don't agree with those who think that top posting has become the norm. Scott -- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.8-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64)
On Friday 12 August 2005 10:35 pm, Scott Leighton wrote:
On Friday 12 August 2005 9:00 am, jdd wrote:
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards
jdd
Really, I have asdl mysel but can't stand html posts and really don't agree with those who think that top posting has become the norm.
I agree. Top posting hasn't become the "norm," as far as I can tell. Intelligent users who've been on the Net. for awhile know better, and common sense SHOULD tell the others to bottom post. There are a number of newsgroups and elists that mandate it, and should. Fred -- Planet Earth - a subsidiary of Microsoft. We have no bugs in our software, Never! We do have undocumented added features, that you will find amusing, at no added cost to you, at this time.
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Friday 12 August 2005 10:35 pm, Scott Leighton wrote:
On Friday 12 August 2005 9:00 am, jdd wrote:
Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change.
not anybody have dsl links. please follow the standards
jdd
Really, I have asdl mysel but can't stand html posts and really don't agree with those who think that top posting has become the norm.
I agree. Top posting hasn't become the "norm," as far as I can tell. Intelligent users who've been on the Net. for awhile know better, and common sense SHOULD tell the others to bottom post. There are a number of newsgroups and elists that mandate it, and should.
Fred
Don't blame the user. In some case a user might be posting from Outlook or some other Win32 application that does not do bottom posting correctly. Also, a user may not have a choice in the app being used, like some work enviroments. This debate comes up often on our local LUGs mailing list. Personaly, following suite is the best thing to do. If the thread is bottom posted, then post at the bottom. Mike
On Saturday 13 August 2005 1:18 am, Michael Honeyfield wrote: [snip]
I agree. Top posting hasn't become the "norm," as far as I can tell. Intelligent users who've been on the Net. for awhile know better, and common sense SHOULD tell the others to bottom post. There are a number of newsgroups and elists that mandate it, and should.
Fred
Don't blame the user. In some case a user might be posting from Outlook or some other Win32 application that does not do bottom posting correctly. Also, a user may not have a choice in the app being used, like some work enviroments.
MOST mailers can be setup to bottom post by default.
This debate comes up often on our local LUGs mailing list.
'Almost "everywhere" now and then. I'm on one list where it's not the "rule" of the list, but a number of us who are frequent posters ignore top posted mail. All list members were given the reasons for bottom posting and given plenty of time to get used to it. A few are stubborn 'Bloze users who now don't get answers to questions by those who could help them, but they're beginning to "get the idea." ;) The biggest reason we have taken this approach is that most of us simply have too much to do in addition to reading mail, and don't have time to jump all over a long post to follow the conversation. And, since it's NOT normal to read from the bottom to the top, we don't.
Personaly, following suite is the best thing to do. If the thread is bottom posted, then post at the bottom.
'Only way to do it. ;) Fred -- Planet Earth - a subsidiary of Microsoft. We have no bugs in our software, Never! We do have undocumented added features, that you will find amusing, at no added cost to you, at this time.
On 8/13/05, Michael Honeyfield <mhoneyfield@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Don't blame the user. In some case a user might be posting from Outlook or some other Win32 application that does not do bottom posting correctly. Also, a user may not have a choice in the app being used, like some work enviroments.
No, I am blaming the user. People are just lazy and inconsiderate. It is not that much effort to just move your cursor to the end of the part you are replying to. Then use the mouse (all broken email clients are GUI) to highlight the irrelevant stuff and hit the 'DEL' button. I have not seen an email client that forces you to top-post. They all allow you to enter text inside the message. (Except if you have set the stupid thing up to attach old contents of replied mail in an attachment, but that can be changed) I use gmail here and it is also set up to top-post, but I know how to use my mouse and arrow keys on my keyboard. :-) -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
Quoting Andre Truter <andre.truter@gmail.com>:
No, I am blaming the user. People are just lazy and inconsiderate.
I suppose this is somewhat true. Yes, users at times can be idiots. (I have plenty of Windows-using friends whom I can't teach to be security-wise, no matter how many times I go over the lecture. :) ) However, I'd never heard of the difference between top and bottom-posting. I've been on a few lists (I haven't been in Linux that long - almost a year and a half - I'm learning as much as I can), but no one ever made an issue out of the two. It was fine to see the reply and be done with it. I guess for me (and an unknown number of others), it wasn't being "lazy and inconsiderate", but a lack of knowledge of such ettiquete. Armed with this quick (and somewhat testy) discussion, I shall top-post no more.... -Chris
On 8/13/05, robbinsc@email.arizona.edu <robbinsc@email.arizona.edu> wrote:
Quoting Andre Truter <andre.truter@gmail.com>:
No, I am blaming the user. People are just lazy and inconsiderate.
[...]
the difference between top and bottom-posting. I've been on a few lists (I haven't been in Linux that long - almost a year and a half - I'm learning as much as I can), but no one ever made an issue out of the two.
It is normally on the technical Linux/UNIX/BSD lists where people make an issue of netiquette. Windows and genral-purpose lists seldom do. I got my first rap on the fingers (and wake-up call) in the previous century when I was still developing on the Windows platform, using Borland C++ Builder. I posted a message to a Borland forum using Netscape and at that stage I thought the HTML mail is "so cool!" Then one of the Borland developers explained to me the errs of my ways and it made me think a bit. I immediately changed all my mail clients to plain text. :-) [...]
see the reply and be done with it. I guess for me (and an unknown number of others), it wasn't being "lazy and inconsiderate", but a lack of knowledge of such ettiquete. Armed with this quick (and somewhat testy) discussion,
Yes, you are correct. Most people just don't know about it and don't think about it unless someone points it out. (Like in my case) The "lazy and inconsiderate" that I mentioned is actually referring to people who have read the mailing list guidelines/rules and someone has already pointed out to them that top-posting is not a good thing, but then they still continue to do it and try to justify it. I did not mean to offend (sorry for that), but I am abit testy about this, as I am subscribed to whole number of lists and this discussion pops up every now and again in most of the lists. (The Ubuntu mailing list also have an active thread on this at the moment) <rant> The thing that really gets me is that people will join a list that has been running for years and then they want to change the rules a month after they joined. They don't even understand what netiquette or lists are about and that a lot of the people on the list do not always have the same advantages (like lots of cheap bandwidth) as they have. This is just plain rude. You don't walk into someone else's house and start to move the furniture around. There might be a perfectly good reason why the couch is in the kitchen. </rant> But I am very glad when people are willing to understand why there is such a thing as netiquette and they are willing to follow it to keep the community running smooth. Thanks :-) -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andre Truter" <andre.truter@gmail.com> To: <opensuse@opensuse.org> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] Question about posting On 8/13/05, Michael Honeyfield <mhoneyfield@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Don't blame the user. In some case a user might be posting from Outlook or some other Win32 application that does not do bottom posting correctly. Also, a user may not have a choice in the app being used, like some work enviroments.
No, I am blaming the user. People are just lazy and inconsiderate. It is not that much effort to just move your cursor to the end of the part you are replying to. Then use the mouse (all broken email clients are GUI) to highlight the irrelevant stuff and hit the 'DEL' button. I have not seen an email client that forces you to top-post. They all allow you to enter text inside the message. (Except if you have set the stupid thing up to attach old contents of replied mail in an attachment, but that can be changed) I use gmail here and it is also set up to top-post, but I know how to use my mouse and arrow keys on my keyboard. :-) -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~ One thing I am very happy I placed the mail subscription on Msn Email since I use this for all emails until I am sure the emails are important then I switch over to my Linux email. As I see it Novell should post as to what they want to be the procedure for posting. This constant bickering is a waste of bandwidth since half the emails from this list are about posting. I belong to a lot of forum email subscriptions and they post both ways according to what the moderator sets up, not to what each individual prefers. Yes, sometimes I prefer bottom posting and sometimes I prefer top posting, but to bottom post on a subject like this that is being repeated so many times is a waste as I hate to have to scroll when I know what everyone is talking about. It is totally inane to be arguing about things like how SuSE is typed as who cares as long as the reader knows what is being talked about. If someone feels hurt that someone types SUSE or Suse so be it but I for one do not look at pity typing as a subject to be in a email forum. Misspelling yes as a lot of words misspelled could mean something else completely but to argue about correct letter capitalization is utterly stupid. Another thing to look at is a lot of individuals are not adept to the English language so they do misspell or arrange sentencing differently but they are SuSE users so just adjust. I would like this to be a TOP forum about Open SuSE not a bunch of arguments pertaining to correct posting or capital lettering. If you do not like the way a person posts delete their email "But word of caution you may miss a important post" because you do not like top or bottom posting. Regards, George Greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensics.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 14. August 2005 02:03 schrieb Greenarrow 1:
I would like this to be a TOP forum about Open SuSE not a bunch of arguments pertaining to correct posting or capital lettering. If you do not like the way a person posts delete their email "But word of caution you may miss a important post" because you do not like top or bottom posting.
Your posting is a perfect example for very bad quoting, which is very difficult to read because you never know who was writing this or this line. The first paragraph without quotemarks seems to be written by you, but isnt. The second also. Where starts your answer? And how can i be sure, that there is nor paragraph from some other post inbetween? And this is the standard behaviour of Outlook, and it is changeable. Why do you think you are not responsible for the postings you _are_ sending to this list? And if you want that your postings will be answered, _you_ have to write in a way which makes it easier to read for other persons. Its more this way: "But word of caution you may miss an answer you are waiting for, because the one who could answer didnt read your posting". How would you like my message, if i would write without spaces? Thismakesmypostingveryreadableornot?Anddoyouhavefunreadingit?Thenyouforsurewillunderstandthatallcommunityisstandingontopofcompromisesfrombothsides. So, if it wasnt easy to read, you will maybe understand that your message are also not so easy to read. Please think about it. regards, Jens
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 08:49 -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote:
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change. Top-posting has become almost the norm with most people nowadays.
HTML posting (which I probably am, by the way) is also accepted, especially in the US. With over 250 messages in *THIS* inbox (and this is not my main account) every day, having a cable connection is nearly mandatory. I have so many threads that it's nearly impossible for me to read all of them by going through ALL the way, and scrolling to the bottom. There's no way I could or would be on this list on dialup.
Which is the whole point, many people on this list are on dial-up. Should we then exclude people from this list because they still have metered dial-up connections?
English is a top-to-bottom language, rather than the other way around.
Which is why the preferred way on this list is bottom posting. If the list admin will post a preference that should be how the list is used.
Nettiquette has *CHANGED* in recent years, due to people's actions.
Not all change is for the good.
If the server filtered HTML and converted to plaintext, and that's what the people at Novell wanted, that would probably be fine. E-mail clients are so sophisticated (and have been for nearly ten years now) that they can accept plaintext AND HTML. My client (Thunderbird) sends out both if set that way.
But you need to keep in mind the people on metered dial-up. HTML adds greatly to their cost. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
I agree with Ken. If Novell were using 21st century technology this would be forum software like Social MPN instead of a mailing list. This caters to the lowest common denominator, and allows access to everyone. Not all change is for the good, but that doesn't mean that top-posting is bad. Some people can recall threads and don't need to scroll to the bottom to read - those people top-post. Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking. RP Ken Schneider wrote:
Which is the whole point, many people on this list are on dial-up. Should we then exclude people from this list because they still have metered dial-up connections?
English is a top-to-bottom language, rather than the other way around.
Which is why the preferred way on this list is bottom posting.
If the list admin will post a preference that should be how the list is used.
Nettiquette has *CHANGED* in recent years, due to people's actions.
Not all change is for the good.
If the server filtered HTML and converted to plaintext, and that's what the people at Novell wanted, that would probably be fine. E-mail clients are so sophisticated (and have been for nearly ten years now) that they can accept plaintext AND HTML. My client (Thunderbird) sends out both if set that way.
But you need to keep in mind the people on metered dial-up. HTML adds greatly to their cost.
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 09:44 -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote:
I agree with Ken. If Novell were using 21st century technology this would be forum software like Social MPN instead of a mailing list. This caters to the lowest common denominator, and allows access to everyone.
Not all change is for the good, but that doesn't mean that top-posting is bad. Some people can recall threads and don't need to scroll to the bottom to read - those people top-post.
Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking.
RP
I know of a few, not many perhaps, but a few from Spain and India that still are forced to use metered dial-up. I have a couple friends here in SW FL that have no cable service available and they are to far from the CO to get DSL and I have gotten them to use SuSE linux and they are very interested in the beta releases. Even in the USA there are still many people in rural areas that need access. We need to be able to support everyone on this list not just the ones fortunate to have broadband service. This is the end of my discussion on this subject. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
Ken Schneider wrote:
Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking.
I know of a few, not many perhaps, but a few from Spain and India
[raises hand] Linux user from India here who's currently on ADSL (500 MB bandwidth per month) but has had his experience with net connections metered by the minute (not just hour). Except in big towns or cities, DSL is not an option here. -- Shriramana Sharma http://samvit.org
On Friday 12 August 2005 10:44 am, Renegade Penguin wrote:
This caters to the lowest common denominator, and allows access to everyone.
The lowest common technical demoninator, perhaps. Allowing access to everyone is a good thing, especially for a corporation. If you want an exclusive club, starting your own is always on option.
Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking.
There are people with metered phone service and they pay by the minute. So, even if their ISP isn't charging them by the hour, their TelCo is. Plus, I imagine there are people on this list using a curses interface to keep up with the List and they don't read HTML formatting as anything but noise in the channel. So, as a matter of courtesy, to the "lowest common demoninator" and out of a desire for clear communication, please don't use HTML formatted e-mail. While we're on the subject, the common usage of HTML e-mail is responsible for a quite a bit of our virus issues. Just on general principle, I don't use it for anything. -- __________ CorvusE: Linux User #370082 live free. die free. use free software.
So how is it that these people download 4 ISOs if they have per minute charges? It doesn't make much sense. RP CorvusE wrote:
On Friday 12 August 2005 10:44 am, Renegade Penguin wrote:
This caters to the lowest common denominator, and allows access to everyone.
The lowest common technical demoninator, perhaps. Allowing access to everyone is a good thing, especially for a corporation. If you want an exclusive club, starting your own is always on option.
Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking.
There are people with metered phone service and they pay by the minute. So, even if their ISP isn't charging them by the hour, their TelCo is. Plus, I imagine there are people on this list using a curses interface to keep up with the List and they don't read HTML formatting as anything but noise in the channel. So, as a matter of courtesy, to the "lowest common demoninator" and out of a desire for clear communication, please don't use HTML formatted e-mail. While we're on the subject, the common usage of HTML e-mail is responsible for a quite a bit of our virus issues. Just on general principle, I don't use it for anything.
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 12:14:48PM -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote:
So how is it that these people download 4 ISOs if they have per minute charges? It doesn't make much sense. RP CorvusE wrote:
A pictures says a thousand words. With the way you are posting I have NO idea who is posting what. What is a reply andwhere what begins: http://houghi.org/shots/topposting001.png To be sure what you wrote and what was already there I had to go back and compare with the posting you replied to. Perhaps for you that is easy to remember, because you just replied to the posting. For people who look at the archives in 6 months or people who do not remember everery posting that is done, it might be difficult. I even have HTML recognision on, so it does not look like utter crap. Now if people are posting in order and in plaintext, it is extremely easy to follow. Here an exaple in which it is done correctly: http://houghi.org/shots/topposting002.png It still would be nice if one of the maintainers would reply and tell what they think. I see them bottomposting and snipping. houghi -- Machine-Independent, adj.: Does not run on any existing machine.
On 8/12/05, Renegade Penguin <renegadepenguin@comcast.net> wrote:
I agree with Ken. If Novell were using 21st century technology this would be forum software like Social MPN instead of a mailing list. This caters to the lowest common denominator, and allows access to everyone.
If you want to cater and reach the masses, then catering for the lowest common denominator is good.
Not all change is for the good, but that doesn't mean that top-posting is bad. Some people can recall threads and don't need to scroll to the bottom to read - those people top-post.
You have to take into account that this is a mailing list. That means that the mail messages will be read 6 months from now as it is also a technical resource. Top posting makes sense if you have a one-on-one discussion with someone or if everybody is following the thread in real time. But if you read the thread a few months from now, then top posting is very frustrating.
Who is on METERED dial-up? I know about metered broadband, but metered DIALUP? I haven't seen that since about 1996 in the US - so nearly 10 years now. Are there still places that charge by the hour? Honestly asking.
It is not only US people that are subscribed to this mailing lsit. Do yourself a favour and come and live in South Africa for a few months, earning the average wage. We are supposed to be a technically advanced nation, but our (only, monopolistic) telco started punting ISDN about 5 years ago as the latest in internet technology. About 2 years ago they started with ADSL - a whole 512k downstram and 128k upstream at a hefty price. And they limit you to 3GB per month. If you want better than that you need to dish out a lot of money. Most people here still use metered internet over analogue modem. The telco charge you by the minute. Now think about the whole of Africa - that is even worse. Mailing list nettiquette is just good manners. Even if the whole world has lots of cheap bandwidth, bad netiquette still causes unneccessary load on all the systems that it passes through. It is not efficient use of resources. Then we ask why our natural resources are dwindeling and we wonder about things like the ozone problem and greenhouse effect and what not. (I am by far not Green Peace or anything like that ) We don't take the time to think how our actions affect our environment and the environment includes other computers, servers, routers, everything that is affected by each mail you send. You think that your 2kb extra in the mail is nothing, but multiply that my the thousands of people that it get sent to and the paths around the world that it takes. Then multiply that with the number of messages sent on the millions of mailing lists. Just think logically about it. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 12:17:17PM -0400, Ken Schneider wrote:
Nettiquette has *CHANGED* in recent years, due to people's actions.
Not all change is for the good.
Netiquette has not changed. One maker of a certain range of products started this and becuse it is used by force AND people wre not educated it is used that way. rfc1855 is still there. If you use that product, repair it with one of the following fixes: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ houghi -- Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look.
Gentlemen, On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 12:17:17PM -0400, Ken Schneider wrote:
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 08:49 -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote:
HTML posting (which I probably am, by the way) is also accepted, especially in the US.
Which is the whole point, many people on this list are on dial-up.
please, do not feed the troll. Considerateness is not practiced everywhere on this earth, in a lot of places (not only the US!) the only thing that seems to matter is what *you* have got and can do, and never mind other people's limitations. You won't change this by lengthy discussions, which in effect take up more bandwith than full quotes, top posts and HTML mails all together. Ras"procmail filter rules available on request"mus
bottom posted... ---------------------------------------------------------- Le Vendredi 12 Août 2005 11:49, Renegade Penguin a écrit :
I know that old nettiquette *required* bottom posting, but the truth of the matter is that societal conventions can actually change. Top-posting has become almost the norm with most people nowadays.
HTML posting (which I probably am, by the way) is also accepted, especially in the US. With over 250 messages in *THIS* inbox (and this is not my main account) every day, having a cable connection is nearly mandatory. I have so many threads that it's nearly impossible for me to read all of them by going through ALL the way, and scrolling to the bottom. There's no way I could or would be on this list on dialup.
English is a top-to-bottom language, rather than the other way around. Nettiquette has *CHANGED* in recent years, due to people's actions.
If the server filtered HTML and converted to plaintext, and that's what the people at Novell wanted, that would probably be fine. E-mail clients are so sophisticated (and have been for nearly ten years now) that they can accept plaintext AND HTML. My client (Thunderbird) sends out both if set that way.
The bottom-posters are the squeakiest wheels. They point to established nettiquette that's been around for twenty years, as people *USED* to be on 300/1200/2400 baud, and it was polite both to bottom post AND TO SNIP. They are the most vocal bunch. In my experience, top-posters like myself look at this and just shrug, and go about it in our usual way. Top-posters don't generally *care* about whether or not it's in HTML either, because 99% of e-mail IS in HTML format. Bandwidth considerations make this almost trivial in the US. I know - there are a few COUNTRIES on the planet (generally extremely small countries) where only dialup exists, and certain countries like Australia have bandwidth caps in most cases, etc., but by and large people in the US are so used to it (and make up a majority in many cases) that it will continue unabated. Not making a statement pro or con, just stating.
Unless the list is moderated and top OR bottom posting is specifically enforced, it's banging your head against the wall to try to police the top-posters, as we number in the billions. Remember, people go with what seems *natural* rather than what is dictated in most cases. Top-posting is a product of English (and many languages around the world) starting top-to-bottom, left to right. I know some languages like Hebrew follow different rules, too, but this list seems to be mostly in English. If there were a specific format chosen by Novell, and the list was moderated, it's nearly impossible to force people one way or the other.
Just my 2¢. RP
Hi It sounds typicaly like someone thinking (and writing) the "American way of life"... The way that should (must) be the only (and best) way of thinking in the world. God bless them, anyway. Unscribing from this boring list. Bye.
On 8/12/05, houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote:
I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer.
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
The best is actually selective posting, where you cut out the stuff that you are not replying to and reply directly below the paragraph you are responding to. Alse remove all old signatures, etc. The general idea is to keep the mail clean and as short as possible. This makes it easier to read and lighter on the different mail servers that your mail goes through. Keep in mind that the one little mail you are sending to a mailing list gest sent to thousands of mail servers all over the world and it takes up resources and bandwidth and disk space on people's machines. If you think about it, it makes sense. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:24:12AM +0200, Andre Truter wrote:
On 8/12/05, houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote: <snip>
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
The best is actually selective posting, where you cut out the stuff that you are not replying to and reply directly below the paragraph you are responding to.
Oh yes, please. And it works like this, BTW. <snip> Good explanation on how and why is give in one of the URL's. It is made for Usenet, but applies just as well as to mailinglists (or even personal email) English : http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html German : http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren/ Dutch : http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ I am however not the maintainer here and I have no say in this matter. I would like to hear what the maintainers think about this. Including some rules in a group that is already as busy as it is now and explaining them in the welcome message would be a good idea. houghi -- "When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if I had any firearms with me. I said, `Well, what do you need?'" -- Steven Wright
I agree that the maintainers ought to weigh in. If they do, then people should abide by that, if they don't, then it's probably going to be a free-for-all. RP P.S. I vote for the sandwiches. I'll take a hot pastrami sub. =) houghi wrote:
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:24:12AM +0200, Andre Truter wrote:
On 8/12/05, houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote:
<snip>
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
The best is actually selective posting, where you cut out the stuff that you are not replying to and reply directly below the paragraph you are responding to.
Oh yes, please. And it works like this, BTW.
<snip> Good explanation on how and why is give in one of the URL's. It is made for Usenet, but applies just as well as to mailinglists (or even personal email)
English : http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html German : http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren/ Dutch : http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/
I am however not the maintainer here and I have no say in this matter. I would like to hear what the maintainers think about this.
Including some rules in a group that is already as busy as it is now and explaining them in the welcome message would be a good idea.
houghi
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 08:51:40AM -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote:
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
Yes. And also no HTML. A lot of people here use Linux, I believe and some of those will use CLI and not GUI. houghi -- Our country has plenty of good five-cent cigars, but the trouble is they charge fifteen cents for them.
I see a lot of top and bottom posting going on. It makes it very hard to read with all the scrolling up and down. First to see what the question was and then back to the answer.
Would it be wise to recommend bottom posting?
I agree its easier to see the subject and later the comment. Maybe Its also a good idea to have a forum with subs in it, so you can work with the that what you want
More info on this subject: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
houghi
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 02:14:48PM +0200, Ben wrote:
Maybe Its also a good idea to have a forum with subs in it,
You want a forum with submarines? Do you prefer the ship or the sandwich variety?
so you can work with the that what you want
I do not understand. Rasmus -- A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay?
Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2005 14:24, schreef Rasmus Plewe:
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 02:14:48PM +0200, Ben wrote:
Maybe Its also a good idea to have a forum with subs in it,
You want a forum with submarines? Do you prefer the ship or the sandwich variety? No i mean just subitems. i dont like submarines. But i think the sandwich is o.k by me
so you can work with the that what you want
So you can work or discuss at one item, then there is lesser e-mail in your inbox.
I do not understand. I hope you understand now ( my english is not perfect. sorry)
Rasmus
Rasmus Plewe wrote:
On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 02:14:48PM +0200, Ben wrote:
Maybe Its also a good idea to have a forum with subs in it, You want a forum with submarines? Do you prefer the ship or the sandwich variety?
ROTFL! :D -- Shriramana Sharma http://samvit.org
participants (18)
-
Andre Truter -
Ben -
CorvusE -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Fred A. Miller -
Greenarrow 1 -
houghi -
jdd -
Jens Nixdorf -
Ken Schneider -
Lode Vermeiren -
Michael Honeyfield -
Patrick Serru -
Rasmus Plewe -
Renegade Penguin -
robbinsc＠email.arizona.edu -
Scott Leighton -
Shriramana Sharma