[opensuse] Why is RasPi worth more effort than older PCs? or Macs?
I've always advocated reusing computers & I've been continually frustrated by the Linux community as a whole recently because they keep pushing software that takes more resources. Linux was always held up as the poster child for keeping alive older hardware, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people fall all over themselves to add support for it. For not much more than the cost of a RPi, I can pick up a cheap Pentium 3 laptop off eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have basically a whole computer that's better supported and much faster(I doubt that the armv6 core in the RPi is faster than a P3/500 at most things). As an example, my Thinkpad A30p has a 1.2Ghz P3, 1GB RAM, Radeon 7000/32MB, 320GB HD, DVD Burner. But, with a well known and well supported old graphics chip, even KDE3/TDE is barely usable & KDE4 is like molasses. Granted, the RPi does have a video chip capable of decoding x264, but a 2D desktop like KDE3/TDE should function well on pretty much any hardware. Supporting ARM is a real pain because there are so many different SoC versions, where x86 is a known and well supported standard. I'm not against supporting the RPi, I just don't understand why it, being underpowered is considered "acceptable" where older PC hardware isn't & people are told they should buy newer. Just wondering. Thanx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2014 11:23 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:
I've always advocated reusing computers & I've been continually frustrated by the Linux community as a whole recently because they keep pushing software that takes more resources. Linux was always held up as the poster child for keeping alive older hardware, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people fall all over themselves to add support for it. For not much more than the cost of a RPi, I can pick up a cheap Pentium 3 laptop off eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have basically a whole computer that's better supported and much faster(I doubt that the armv6 core in the RPi is faster than a P3/500 at most things).
As an example, my Thinkpad A30p has a 1.2Ghz P3, 1GB RAM, Radeon 7000/32MB, 320GB HD, DVD Burner. But, with a well known and well supported old graphics chip, even KDE3/TDE is barely usable & KDE4 is like molasses. Granted, the RPi does have a video chip capable of decoding x264, but a 2D desktop like KDE3/TDE should function well on pretty much any hardware.
Supporting ARM is a real pain because there are so many different SoC versions, where x86 is a known and well supported standard. I'm not against supporting the RPi, I just don't understand why it, being underpowered is considered "acceptable" where older PC hardware isn't & people are told they should buy newer.
Just wondering. Thanx
I'm no expert, but I would venture a guess that the Raspberry Pi is so popular for two reasons 1) it's cute and a fad right now. 2) it's small size and easy adaptability make it very functional for adding computer controls to a variety of devices. By the way, know what an "expert" is? An "ex" is a has been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh said the following on 01/06/2014 12:52 PM:
I'm no expert, but I would venture a guess that the Raspberry Pi is so popular for two reasons
1) it's cute and a fad right now.
+1 "A Media Darling"
2) it's small size and easy adaptability make it very functional for adding computer controls to a variety of devices.
As if no-one has ever heard of the Arduino board. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino http://arduino.cc/ Better documented and better supported than the Pi Search for the books and add-ons http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=arduino http://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-Module-Arduino-Board-White/dp/B003B22UR0/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032183&sr=8-13 http://www.amazon.com/365buying-Reader-Module-Socket-Arduino/dp/B008B52QQC/ref=sr_1_64?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032444&sr=8-64 http://www.amazon.com/SunFounder-Modules-Arduino-Mega2560-Mega328/dp/B00E0EXR9I/ref=sr_1_67?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032486&sr=8-67 And if you like robotics http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Drive-Arduino-Robot-Platform/dp/B007JZ2ICW/ref=sr_1_83?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032552&sr=8-83 http://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-HC-SR04-Ranging-Detector-Distance/dp/B004U8TOE6/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032183&sr=8-15 http://www.amazon.com/HC-SR501-Sensor-Module-Pyroelectric-Infrared/dp/B007XQRKD4/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032183&sr=8-11 http://www.amazon.com/Arduino-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transceiver-Module/dp/B0093XAV4U/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032343&sr=8-19 The Arduino is very popular with RC modelers and for quadracopters - read "drones" http://www.amazon.com/Kootek%C2%AE-Arduino-MPU-6050-gyroscope-accelerometer/dp/B008BOPN40/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032343&sr=8-29 Yes you could apart/hack these to use with the Pi, but the point is that they are 'native' to the Arduino and it was there first. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2014 12:31 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Billie Walsh said the following on 01/06/2014 12:52 PM:
I'm no expert, but I would venture a guess that the Raspberry Pi is so popular for two reasons
1) it's cute and a fad right now.
+1 "A Media Darling"
2) it's small size and easy adaptability make it very functional for adding computer controls to a variety of devices.
As if no-one has ever heard of the Arduino board. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino http://arduino.cc/ Better documented and better supported than the Pi Search for the books and add-ons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=arduino
And if you like robotics http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Drive-Arduino-Robot-Platform/dp/B007JZ2ICW/ref=sr_1_83?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032552&sr=8-83
The Arduino is very popular with RC modelers and for quadracopters - read "drones" http://www.amazon.com/Kootek%C2%AE-Arduino-MPU-6050-gyroscope-accelerometer/dp/B008BOPN40/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1389032343&sr=8-29
Yes you could apart/hack these to use with the Pi, but the point is that they are 'native' to the Arduino and it was there first.
Raspberry Pi is definitely a cuter name that Arduino. *<]:oD -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh said the following on 01/06/2014 03:41 PM:
Raspberry Pi is definitely a cuter name that Arduino. *<]:oD
Well, yes, there is that. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:
I've always advocated reusing computers & I've been continually frustrated by the Linux community as a whole recently because they keep pushing software that takes more resources. Linux was always held up as the poster child for keeping alive older hardware, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people fall all over themselves to add support for it. For not much more than the cost of a RPi, I can pick up a cheap Pentium 3 laptop off eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have basically a whole computer that's better supported and much faster(I doubt that the armv6 core in the RPi is faster than a P3/500 at most things).
As an example, my Thinkpad A30p has a 1.2Ghz P3, 1GB RAM, Radeon 7000/32MB, 320GB HD, DVD Burner. But, with a well known and well supported old graphics chip, even KDE3/TDE is barely usable & KDE4 is like molasses. Granted, the RPi does have a video chip capable of decoding x264, but a 2D desktop like KDE3/TDE should function well on pretty much any hardware.
Supporting ARM is a real pain because there are so many different SoC versions, where x86 is a known and well supported standard. I'm not against supporting the RPi, I just don't understand why it, being underpowered is considered "acceptable" where older PC hardware isn't & people are told they should buy newer.
Just wondering. Thanx
I'm going to guess power savings, noise reduction, and maintainability. I say that because I put an old laptop into service as a weather station a few years ago. It was surprising how load / hot it was. And when the screen died, I replaced the whole thing with newer tech. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/6/2014 9:23 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:
Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people fall all over themselves to add support for it. For not much more than the cost of a RPi, I can pick up a cheap Pentium 3 laptop off eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have basically a whole computer that's better supported and much faster(I doubt that the armv6 core in the RPi is faster than a P3/500 at most things).
For 35 bucks you get a whole computer with the Pi. For about $65 you get a bunch of auxiliary features like a power supply case, cables etc, that you really don't need. But the $35 price includes every thing you really need, including a fully capable linux distro (three of them actually, as well as BSD). Up and running in 15 minutes, and, sporting the same processor as the Iphone 3Gs, it is no slouch in performance. The Arduino by comparison is bereft of physical ports, even when you buy the $74 dollar version (seemingly always out of stock), dramatically slower, still wide less capable than the Pi by a wide margin. And the distro(s) available for Pi are largely complete, Debian linux, which every interested 7th grader can manage But most importantly it WORKS OUT OF THE BOX. Why? Because it is capable enough to warrant the development. It has all experimental capabilities bolted on AFTER the fact, rather than as the principal raison d'etre. So the kid can blink silly the LEDs on the auxiliary breadboard kits and build the robots etc, but the basic computer is capable all by it self of handling real world loads. And supporting the ARM processor is NOT harder than supporting the multiple versions of Intel concurrently available. Its essentially no harder than a recompile of the distro with different switches. The problem isn't with the PI, its with YOUR expectations. You expect the ThinkPad to handle modern workstation loads and Bloated desktop environments. Why? Well it LOOKS just about like the machines that DO handle that load. But the P3 was releases almost a DECADE prior to the Raspberry PI processor. The Pi? Nobody expects to put KDE on that, they expect to run at the command line (although it has a Graphical User Interface if you want). It has a better chance of running KDE than that your P3. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-01-06 15:09 (GMT-0500) John Andersen composed:
It has a better chance of running KDE than that your P3.
No serious problems apparent here running KDE3 in 11.4/12.1/12.2/12.3/13.1 on my several functioning Piiis. Slowness wouldn't be the fault of the CPU of 1000MHz or more, but of 100MHz or 133MHz SDRAM and motherboard limited RAM capacity of 512M of which some possibly shared by built-in gfx. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-01-06 21:09, John Andersen wrote:
For 35 bucks you get a whole computer with the Pi. For about $65 you get a bunch of auxiliary features like a power supply case, cables etc, that you really don't need.
But not a hard disk, keyboard, and display, which an old laptop has. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 1/6/2014 1:46 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-01-06 21:09, John Andersen wrote:
For 35 bucks you get a whole computer with the Pi. For about $65 you get a bunch of auxiliary features like a power supply case, cables etc, that you really don't need.
But not a hard disk, keyboard, and display, which an old laptop has.
Right, but these things become a liability for utility machines. They are also the first things to fail on a laptop. You plug the Raspberry into your network and talk to it with ssh. You hang as much USB storage on it as you want, and you can pop out the microsd card containing the OS and pop in a different OS. The Pi is not going to be your desktop machine. But the OP was complaining that even the old laptop is struggling with that role. And he's right about that. Got a few of those kicking around too. - -- _____________________________________ - ---This space for rent--- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlLLSDwACgkQv7M3G5+2DLJlYgCdFU1MDIoJvKUVBSeX5w4980Hx f/MAnj3EZ0lBEu5TRR4dsUb4mxB2XjVe =BQ/C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-01-07 01:20, John Andersen wrote:
On 1/6/2014 1:46 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But the OP was complaining that even the old laptop is struggling with that role. And he's right about that. Got a few of those kicking around too.
Not really. I understands that he complains that Linux is abandoning that target. Not that those laptops can not cope, but that Linux desktops are becoming more and more demanding, needing recent hardware and abandoning older hardware. I also feel the same. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. said the following on 01/06/2014 07:42 PM:
On 2014-01-07 01:20, John Andersen wrote:
On 1/6/2014 1:46 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But the OP was complaining that even the old laptop is struggling with that role. And he's right about that. Got a few of those kicking around too.
Not really. I understands that he complains that Linux is abandoning that target. Not that those laptops can not cope, but that Linux desktops are becoming more and more demanding, needing recent hardware and abandoning older hardware.
I also feel the same.
Surely there are other, minimalist, less demanding distributions and desktops? Surely the OP doesn't have to use KDE or Gnome. Perhaps its that those old laptops came with Windows/98 and a GUI and the OP feels locked in to the GUI world and can't handle a CLI version of Linux. There are many roles where the GUI is not needed. There are many roles where the GUI can be a web service. For a long time I made use of the IPCop firewall. CLI or web interface. Ran on real old hardware too. Perhaps the problem isn't the desktop per se but the layering of the desktop on the Xserver. Perhaps the successor to XORG will be a boon. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-01-06 20:40 (GMT-0500) Anton Aylward composed:
Perhaps the successor to XORG will be a boon.
Or like WinXP to Vista, newer requires more HP and storage for the get it whether you like it or not bling. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-01-07 02:40, Anton Aylward wrote:
Carlos E. R. said the following on 01/06/2014 07:42 PM:
I also feel the same.
Surely there are other, minimalist, less demanding distributions and desktops? Surely the OP doesn't have to use KDE or Gnome.
Well, related to that, there are several people that are coming to the forums with a common interest: they are expatriates from Windows XP (Xp goes out of support in 2014), seeking someway to keep using their same computer with something else. And considering openSUSE. If they can not succeed to make it work, they may go to another distribution, or going back to Windows. We have now an opportunity to win a bunch of new users to us. And years ago, one of Linux advantages was precissely being able to run on older hardware, contrary to Windows requiring hardware upgrades on each version upgrade. Has openSUSE abandoned this goal? Me, I have an old laptop (~10 years?) on the home server role. I use LXDE on it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. said the following on 01/06/2014 09:25 PM:
And years ago, one of Linux advantages was precissely being able to run on older hardware, contrary to Windows requiring hardware upgrades on each version upgrade.
Has openSUSE abandoned this goal?
The machines I pull out of the Closet of Anxieties are old W/98 and W/XP machines with an 800MHz single core CPU and 512M or 1G of memory and a 20G or 40G drive. I test them with Knoppix/KDE Live but all the ones that work and have 1G of memory run openSuse 12.3 and LXDE or XFCE. It loads on a 20G drive. I haven't been able to get it to install with only 512M of memory, but a disk installed on a 'larger' machine will run on a 512M machine. It doesn't do well in GUI mode but if you want a firewall or a DNS/DHCP server or similar, then the 512M model is OK. I've also taken one of the 1G memory models and dropped a half-T drive in it to do NFS/SAMBA and the Windows users on the LAN were quite happy with it as an archive. I'm sure I could use one, or even share one to do same web server, a 'departmental wiki'. I tried a Fedora-19 USB stick in one but there was a problem with the graphics. I didn't waste time trying to find out the reason as it ran openSuse 12.3 OK. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/06/2014 04:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-01-07 01:20, John Andersen wrote:
On 1/6/2014 1:46 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But the OP was complaining that even the old laptop is struggling with that role. And he's right about that. Got a few of those kicking around too. Not really. I understands that he complains that Linux is abandoning that target. Not that those laptops can not cope, but that Linux desktops are becoming more and more demanding, needing recent hardware and abandoning older hardware.
I also feel the same.
This discussion brings to mind the Linux Router Project (LRP) that I used in 1999 or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Router_Project It was a minimalist version of Linux that fit on a 3.5-inch floppy. On my box it booted into and ran out of 128-MB of ram. The desktop had no hard disks and two Ethernet interfaces. LRP had enough capability to function as as dandy router/firewall using IP-Chains. It used BusyBox for the common commands and even had an SSH server and client. The beauty of the thing was if it ever became compromised, just boot off of the write-protected floppy and you're back home again. Of course, it was never compromised. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
For 35 bucks you get a whole computer with the Pi. For about $65 you get a bunch of auxiliary features like a power supply case, cables etc, that you really don't need.
Add in a monitor, keyboard, mouse, storage, etc, & you are way past that.
But the $35 price includes every thing you really need, including a fully capable linux distro (three of them actually, as well as BSD). Up and running in 15 minutes, and, sporting the same processor as the Iphone 3Gs, it is no slouch in performance.
Sure, the 3gs was ok for iOS 4. But that's like saying a Pentium ran Win95 ok. I can install 13.1 on my Thinkpad A30p & be up in running as fast.
And the distro(s) available for Pi are largely complete, Debian linux, which every interested 7th grader can manage
Really? Debian is far from considered user friendly. uBuntu is but not Debian.
And supporting the ARM processor is NOT harder than supporting the multiple versions of Intel concurrently available. Its essentially no harder than a recompile of the distro with different switches. The problem isn't with the PI, its with YOUR expectations. You expect the ThinkPad to handle modern workstation loads and Bloated desktop environments. Why? Well it LOOKS just about like the machines that DO handle that load.
For one thing I fail to see exactly why these new desktops NEED so much more processing power. Eye Candy? Bling? Desktop Search tools that I & the MAJORITY of computer users don't use? I don't NEED a 3D desktop. However, the fact that my A30p has 2 DVD drive bays & that I can put a 1TB SATA in 1 or both and/or a DVD Burner & use it as a mobile server make it VERY useful to ME. No other newer machine has 2 DVD bays that I have found. Plus it's 1600x1200 IPS LCD is much better than most newer 1366x768 displays by far even being 13 years old. But that wasn't the point. My question was why do people fall over themselves for a machine that you can't upgrade the RAM, but people with machines with 512MB are told to upgrade or replace the machine because 13.1 requires 1GB RAM. What are we doing that's so much different from 5 years ago that we NEED twice the RAM? Other than using 50+ tabs in Firefox, I can't find anything in top that shows that much more RAM usage than what I was doing 5 years ago on a Dual P3/500Mhz with 512MB RAM. Sure the extra Ghz is nice for loading some web stuff, but the Pi can't be that good at displaying web pages. Can you run Flashplayer on it to watch youtube videos?(I don't know, I don't have one). That's what my son does on-line more than anything else.
But the P3 was releases almost a DECADE prior to the RaspberryPI processor.
So what? The Tualatin P3 1.4Ghz outperformed the P4 until it was past 2.4Ghz in MANY things. Then, the Pentium M was released based on the Tualatin P3. The current Core i series trace their roots to the P3. Granted my Core2 based T60p is now my main machine(mainly because it's lighter) but I still use the A30p for watching movies and doing onsite backups so it's not like I should throw it away. It works.
The Pi? Nobody expects to put KDE on that, they expect to run at the command line (although it has a Graphical User Interface if you want). It has a better chance of running KDE than that your P3.
These guys are: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=22637 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I'm not against the Pi as a learning machine. I just don't understand why it, being so underpowered is ok to play with, but if you want to use a real machine you are told that anything less than a Core2 with 8GB RAM is too underpowered to do any real work on. The Pi is far faster than my Powerbook 3400 with it's 240Mhz G3, but then again, it only gets used occasionally for writing. I have Clasilla on it, which is a continuation of Mozilla for Mac OS 9, & I can go online with it but you can't expect much from it with only 144MB RAM. A programmer once told me that he wrote to use all abvailable resources whether they were needed or not. Back barely 15-20 years ago, there was no choice but to optimize code. Now, it seems like no one is optimizing code but just churning out programs. Why waste time making programs leaner & more stable when we need to add all these new nifty features that most people never use. What was that old saying? 80% of users only user 20% of a programs features. Or something like that. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
For 35 bucks you get a whole computer with the Pi. For about $65 you get a bunch of auxiliary features like a power supply case, cables etc, that you really don't need.
Add in a monitor, keyboard, mouse, storage, etc, & you are way past that.
But the $35 price includes every thing you really need, including a fully capable linux distro (three of them actually, as well as BSD). Up and running in 15 minutes, and, sporting the same processor as the Iphone 3Gs, it is no slouch in performance.
Sure, the 3gs was ok for iOS 4. But that's like saying a Pentium ran Win95 ok. I can install 13.1 on my Thinkpad A30p & be up in running as fast.
And the distro(s) available for Pi are largely complete, Debian linux, which every interested 7th grader can manage
Really? Debian is far from considered user friendly. uBuntu is but not Debian.
And supporting the ARM processor is NOT harder than supporting the multiple versions of Intel concurrently available. Its essentially no harder than a recompile of the distro with different switches. The problem isn't with the PI, its with YOUR expectations. You expect the ThinkPad to handle modern workstation loads and Bloated desktop environments. Why? Well it LOOKS just about like the machines that DO handle that load.
For one thing I fail to see exactly why these new desktops NEED so much more processing power. Eye Candy? Bling? Desktop Search tools that I & the MAJORITY of computer users don't use? I don't NEED a 3D desktop. However, the fact that my A30p has 2 DVD drive bays & that I can put a 1TB SATA in 1 or both and/or a DVD Burner & use it as a mobile server make it VERY useful to ME. No other newer machine has 2 DVD bays that I have found. Plus it's 1600x1200 IPS LCD is much better than most newer 1366x768 displays by far even being 13 years old.
But that wasn't the point. My question was why do people fall over themselves for a machine that you can't upgrade the RAM, but people with machines with 512MB are told to upgrade or replace the machine because 13.1 requires 1GB RAM. What are we doing that's so much different from 5 years ago that we NEED twice the RAM? Other than using 50+ tabs in Firefox, I can't find anything in top that shows that much more RAM usage than what I was doing 5 years ago on a Dual P3/500Mhz with 512MB RAM. Sure the extra Ghz is nice for loading some web stuff, but the Pi can't be that good at displaying web pages. Can you run Flashplayer on it to watch youtube videos?(I don't know, I don't have one). That's what my son does on-line more than anything else.
But the P3 was releases almost a DECADE prior to the RaspberryPI processor.
So what? The Tualatin P3 1.4Ghz outperformed the P4 until it was past 2.4Ghz in MANY things. Then, the Pentium M was released based on the Tualatin P3. The current Core i series trace their roots to the P3. Granted my Core2 based T60p is now my main machine(mainly because it's lighter) but I still use the A30p for watching movies and doing onsite backups so it's not like I should throw it away. It works.
The Pi? Nobody expects to put KDE on that, they expect to run at the command line (although it has a Graphical User Interface if you want). It has a better chance of running KDE than that your P3.
These guys are:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=22637 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I think that one of the big reasons folks are trying to use RPIs as computers is they're so incredibly energy efficient. For example, my wife's new 6-core computer with 8GB of memory uses >100W just idling. Why such a beefy machine? She likes to play the Sims, which doesn't work at all on low-power machines. But the fact that an RPI can run from a 5V USB adapter means that it doesn't hurt to leave it on 24x7. It's like Larry just commented - the requirements for software are so ridiculous anymore. I mean, installing Win7 taking up 20GB of hard drive space? Just for the OS? It's really sad - no wonder why things need so many resources and are so hard to troubleshoot when something blows up anymore... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/07/2014 04:35 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:
I just don't understand why it, being so underpowered is ok to play with, but if you want to use a real machine you are told that anything less than a Core2 with 8GB RAM is too underpowered to do any real work on.
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/7/2014 3:46 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun.
Exactly. My OpenSuse Laptop sitting next to me, (a very reliable Inspiron originally sold with Win XP home) is now running 3 time the memory DELL said it would run, A much bigger and faster hard drive, and most days is has at least one and occasionally 3 VMs running (I work on TCP apps). My main desktop machine is the same, sort of setup. Boatload of memory and quad cor processor. I use to do this type of work with a room full of computers. I don't miss them. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/07/2014 06:23 PM, John Andersen wrote:
On 1/7/2014 3:46 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun. Exactly. My OpenSuse Laptop sitting next to me, (a very reliable Inspiron originally sold with Win XP home) is now running 3 time the memory DELL said it would run, A much bigger and faster hard drive, and most days is has at least one and occasionally 3 VMs running (I work on TCP apps).
My main desktop machine is the same, sort of setup. Boatload of memory and quad cor processor.
I use to do this type of work with a room full of computers. I don't miss them.
I removed the mechanical hard drive from my poor old dual core laptop and replaced it with an SSD. I only use it when we travel for e-mail and general browsing. Never for a production machine. Best upgrade I ever did to it. Boots in seconds. Programs load almost before you through clicking on them. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun.
Well sure, in that case throwing more hardware at it makes sense. What I meant was day to day tasks like web browsing, word proc, or email -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/07/2014 07:09 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun. Well sure, in that case throwing more hardware at it makes sense. What I meant was day to day tasks like web browsing, word proc, or email My, one of many, hobby(ies) is doing genealogy and genealogy/history related websites. At any given time I might have two instances of Firefox, regular and Nightly, running with fifteen to twenty tabs on each, Gimp with a couple pictures open, and eight or ten other applications open. And that's an easy day.
Those are my "day to day" tasks. *<]:oD -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14-01-07 08:53 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 01/07/2014 07:09 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
It really depends on what your doing. I edit a lot of television shows so a Quad with a minimum of 12 gig is not to bad. It can be done with a dual core and four gigs if you got loads of time, but anything less that a quad is no fun. Well sure, in that case throwing more hardware at it makes sense. What I meant was day to day tasks like web browsing, word proc, or email My, one of many, hobby(ies) is doing genealogy and genealogy/history related websites. At any given time I might have two instances of Firefox, regular and Nightly, running with fifteen to twenty tabs on each, Gimp with a couple pictures open, and eight or ten other applications open. And that's an easy day.
Those are my "day to day" tasks. *<]:oD
It is precisely the definition of "day to day" task that is critical in this branch of this discussion. Recently, I spend my time developing web applications, and the ideal target is to have my api respond to the client in under a second, though the average, including the round trip to web services my api uses, is more like 6 seconds. While an order of magnitude slower than the ideal, it remains acceptable as my competition typically averages about 20 seconds. I need not explain to most here what factors impinge on improving the responsiveness of a website, but suffice it to say, neither older machines nor entry level current machines will perform adequately IN THIS CONTEXT. I also have programs that handle batch processing of accounting data, and these take a couple days to finish. Again, these are programs you want to run on the fastest machines you can afford. In other contracts, I dealt with risk assessment models related to environmental management. In that area, it is not unusual for a useful model in that discipline to require half a million lines of highly optimized C++ code or more. And then, after many hours of compilation, the model itself may require anywhere from a day or two to a couple weeks, depending on the details of the problem. The day to day tasks of the scientists, engineers and programmers require working with such applications; and their time isn't inexpensive. They are not the kind of staff you want sitting on their thumbs waiting for their computers to finish their task. On the other hand, I have developed embedded software, in what seems like another life, and with the sort of embedded software I worked on, a tiny footprint for the OS and application code is a priority, without sacrificing capability. And on yet another hand, if one has a number of admin assistants, each using only the usual office software, the speed with which they can do their jobs is dependant on the capability of their hardware and software. Making them use older hardware, and less capable software, can slow them down significantly, making them less efficient. I'll leave it to the accounting types out there to compute the cost/benefit tradeoffs between newer, faster, hardware vs a 5% improvement in admin efficiency (it would be as idiotic to put a super computer on each admin's desk as it would be to put an old 8080 PC running DOS there). I am sure there are people out there actually doing that kind of calculation to determine when to replace older computers for businesses of different sizes. The costs associated with staff waiting on their computers can be significant. As an aside, here, I would point ot that to simply describe tasks as "web browsing, word proc, or email" is misleading. The way I browse the web now is very different, demanding a lot more of my system, than I did even 5 years ago and neither the hardware nor the software I used back then would be able to handle what I do now. Similarly, while I do not do a lot of word processing (known, when I was young, as writing), what I do now is significantly different from what I did years ago. I do more with my word processor now, just because I can, and that is just because the software supports it and the hardware is able to run it. And I would point out that what is true of me in my limited writing, is even more true of, say, admin assistants, who are able to do more, more impressively, because the software they're using supports their efforts and creativity. But, in a sense, all this discusson of day to day tasks, and the contexts in which each of us find ourselves, is beside the point. This is open source software, and a portion of the community decided it was interested in developing support for RasPi, and went ahead and did it (or are continuing to do it - I haven't followed that much). If it is true that more effort is being put into supporting RasPi than older computers, that is probably a reflection of the numbers of people who are interested in each. It seems to me that if the question is honest, one is interested in understanding why there are so many more people interested in RasPI than old PCs. If it is not so honest, it carries an implication that those who are more interested in RasPI than old PCs are somehow wrong; and that smells of arrogance. The question of what people are interested in is a value judgement, and I see no basis for passing judgement on value judgements, any more than I would accept an adverse judgement on my taste for rib-eye steak or than I would pass adverse judgement on those who mysteriously prefer salmon. I hate salmon, but if you love it, you can have any salmon allocated to me. ;-) just my $0.05 worth (since the government of Canada has done away with the penny ;-) Cheers ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/7/2014 6:51 PM, Ted Byers wrote: So, precisely, what did you say Ted? It sort of looked like the kind of ramble I can spew after a couple glasses of wine, but I was unable to fathom your point. Hold on, I have a nice Malbec breathing in the kitchen, I'll try that, and then take another read. /jk, of course. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
To me, the RPI (and derivitaves, like the UDOO, Beaglebone Black, etc.) aren't about the computer hardware. They're more about what you can do with them - interact easily with sensors, control outputs, create robotics projects, stuff like that. And then use the "mini computer" side to do stuff like log the results to a mySQL database, display them on the web, etc. without requiring a separate machine. It's basically combining an Arduino and a small computer onto the same board. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/7/2014 2:23 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:
But that wasn't the point. My question was why do people fall over themselves for a machine that you can't upgrade the RAM, but people with machines with 512MB are told to upgrade or replace the machine because 13.1 requires 1GB RAM.
Don't get me wrong, Larry, I too have a collection of machines that really aren't suitable for running Opensuse and KDE. In short, there is a lot of bloat in KDE, and even Gnome. XFCE4 is better but even that is pretty demanding. The kernel itself is also much bigger. But you too lightly dismiss all the things we do differently today. Yes, we do run multi-tabbed browsers and we insist each of those be firewalled and jailed, and we insist they handle protocols that didn't exist 5 years ago and play youtube flawlessly. And we run multiple email accounts, notification agents for chat, and virtual machines, and occasionally fire up a game. I could go on, but you are kidding yourself it you think you aren't doing anything different today than you were in the past. Some of my clunkers will run OpenSuse, barely, some only without a graphical environment, such as you would use for a mail server or a dhcp server, and I could hang some more storage on them I spoze (except for those that are already maxed out). I can/and do run them headless for this, but I still have a power bill, and have to listen to the fans. And some of these functions I can do with a rasbperry pi, all within 512, with 6 gig of flash storage, powered off a usb port or wall charger. And they are cheap enough to do that in a separate box. I have no particular problem running debian. Its not got yast, but still, not a big deal. Grouse as you may about hardware obsolescence being forced by standard kernels and desktops. I'm with you. But it just seems odd to turn around and badmouth the Raspberry in the same post when it is the living proof you can still do many useful things in a small machine. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:22 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
Grouse as you may about hardware obsolescence being forced by standard kernels and desktops. I'm with you.
But it just seems odd to turn around and badmouth the Raspberry in the same post when it is the living proof you can still do many useful things in a small machine.
My intention wasn't to badmouth the RPi. It was to ask why something so underpowered gets so much attention when there are perfectly capable machines out there that really should be more usable other than the demands of the newest versions of everything. Quite honestly, the only reason I have a 6core Phenom II in my desktop/server is for video encoding. I don't play games, edit video or anything else. Other than web browsing & checking email(which I do in webapps & have for 15+years) I don't really do anything different now than I did 10 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I used to run OS/2 & would run win16 programs in their own session so yes, that takes more resources. I also have Virtualbox installed on both my Thinkpads & my server. Until recently the P3 had win200 but now it has XP, & it works fine for what I need it to do. Sure the Core2 is more responsive but after dealing with slow computers for 30 years, having to wait isn't an issue for me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Larry -- ...and then Larry Stotler said... % ... % % Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people ... % eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only % came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have ... % As an example, my Thinkpad A30p has a 1.2Ghz P3, 1GB RAM, Radeon % 7000/32MB, 320GB HD, DVD Burner. But, with a well known and well ... % against supporting the RPi, I just don't understand why it, being % underpowered is considered "acceptable" where older PC hardware isn't % & people are told they should buy newer. BECOZ ITZ KY00T! I can has Piz now? Seriously, though, I think that its tiny form factor is a big plus and helps set the expectations of those who want to play with it. I'd love to have a bunch of them in air ducts controlling flow, running around on spider legs patrolling the house and playing with the cats, and so on. Try putting legs on a laptop and see how it goes ;-) On the other hand, if you're after a compute server farm and need RAM for processing and crunching, a stack of old laptops goes a long way for that purpose. And if you want a storage farm, a single 14-bay tower and big power supply goes a long way for *that* purpose. It's all about setting expectations, and in addition to being new and cute and fun, the Pi's small form, low power draw, open structure, and simplicity help it fill a lot of niches. Speaking personally, I would be most interested in something that can interface wirelessly with keyboard, mouse, and screen (remote display on an Android tablet, maybe?) via Bluetooth and has WiFi & RFID, whether it has removable uSD storage or some permanent store on board. Build me one that's about 1" x 2" x .5" and runs for a day on a flat battery such as in a cell phone and I'll finally be ready to cough up my own money :-) Happy New Year :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 12:23:52 -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:
I've always advocated reusing computers & I've been continually frustrated by the Linux community as a whole recently because they keep pushing software that takes more resources. Linux was always held up as the poster child for keeping alive older hardware, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Depends on what you want and need. If you don't want/need all the fancy UI elements that KDE or GNOME provide, then it actually runs pretty well. I'm speaking as someone who's running both openELEC and openSUSE 13.1 on a RPi.
Then something like the underpowered Raspberry Pi comes out & people fall all over themselves to add support for it. For not much more than the cost of a RPi, I can pick up a cheap Pentium 3 laptop off eBay, which would have same as or more RAM(The RPi originally only came with 26MB, but 512MB is now standard), better expansion & have basically a whole computer that's better supported and much faster(I doubt that the armv6 core in the RPi is faster than a P3/500 at most things).
Well, if you want to pick up a cheap laptop, do so - the RPi port is a community project, and is something that community members have decided to work on. There's no commercial (read: SUSE) interest in the port at all. I find the current 13.1 image to be pretty snappy, actually. I've got it running e17, and it's quite usable. I paid about $100 for my total kit (including case, power supply, wireless-N adapter, sdcard, breadboard, gpio cable, and a few electronic components). openSUSE is on a 32 GB microsd card that I bought for my tablet to run Cyanogen on, but the card wasn't actually capable (higher power requirement than the tablet provides, apparently), so I got one that was compatible and had this one kicking around. NFS for disk storage on my existing systems. HDMI out connected to the projector in our TV room. Mine runs on a 10' screen, no monitor purchase required. It's not a question of it being worth more effort, it's a question of "this is what a certain group of people are interested in doing, so they're doing it." That's what a community distribution does: People are interested in making it work and are putting the time into it. You want to support an older laptop? Go ahead, nothing's stopping you from organizing like-minded individuals and making it happen. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Anton Aylward -
Billie Walsh -
Carlos E. R. -
Christopher Myers -
David T-G -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
Jim Henderson -
John Andersen -
Larry Stotler -
Lew Wolfgang -
Ted Byers