Hi, we keep discussing this over and over again with the same arguments. Nothing has changed. We decided and thats how it is. Please make this the end of this thread. Thanks. Henne -- ml-admin http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 02 February 2009 15:13:02 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2009/02/02 14:43 (GMT+0100) Henne Vogelsang composed:

...

we keep discussing this over and over again with the same arguments. Nothing has changed. We decided and thats how it is.

Please make this the end of this thread. Thanks.

This one will inevitably end, but others will inevitably start. It will remain inevitable as long as the general minority status quo is retained.

Both ways have their good and their bad. Why not create an individual setup option that segregates listserver outgoing according to preference, allowing both camps to get what they want?

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

I have a very simple and extremely strong reason to consider the presence of the in-treply-to header a necessity: this is a maling list, thus all replies to messages originating from it are supposed to belong to the list, at least by default. The other behaviour is surely a possibility, but without any doubt it should be considered the exception and not the norm. So, since all traffic is supposed to converge to the list (by default) all clients should be put in the position to behave accordingly (following the protocol). In my humble opinion the http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html "document" is 200% bullshit -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 15:56 +0100, Jan Karjalainen wrote:

...

I have a very simple and extremely strong reason to consider the presence of the in-treply-to header a necessity: this is a maling list, thus all replies to messages originating from it are supposed to belong to the list, at least by default. The other behaviour is surely a possibility, but without any doubt it should be considered the exception and not the norm.

So, since all traffic is supposed to converge to the list (by default) all clients should be put in the position to behave accordingly (following the protocol).

In my humble opinion the http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html "document" is 200% bullshit

Full agreement here. This is the only list I am on that does what it does. If a user cannot be identified by (1) a proper header or (2) information in the e-mail, why should that person be allowed to post to the list? Note the inclusion of "in the message" - so stop the e-mailer inconsistency arguments - ever hear of a signature? If getting a response to you as an individual is so important, say so in your message and be sure the info in your signature is correct. I am still confused about what messages require personal contact that is off-list. Is the list a dating service now? :) Is the argument really that tracking people who cannot be bothered to properly identify themselves is more important than improved list use? Messages belong to the list. Period. They do not belong to the individuals. If you ask a question in the list, expect the answer to be there, not as private correspondence. The list is not a private source of information for anyone. It is a shared resource. The resource is the list. If all answers do not go to the list, then he list suffers. As to the "it has been decided" argument: that is what is always said. I was not aware the list was managed in a closed, non-adaptive fashion. Sure we have all gotten used to the SUSE list reply setup. Just like we get used to sleet and bad lunch food. It does not mean we all like it. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about a large city with all construction finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

This whole list thing is getting a little tedious now it has been done time after time . It is about time it died COMPLETELY All this moaning about cant reply to list i have to do this that or other to reply to the list only means there are a lot of very duff mail clients out there i am on somewhere in the area of 12 or so lists i nr=ever have had a single problem replying to any of them be they suse lists ham lists tropical fish lists motorsport lists they all work why IS this because i use what seems like the best mail client going Kmail it even handle the windBloWs specfic lists without getting it's knickers in a knot To all that have problems with reply to list i would suggest yoo switch to Kmail set it up properly and use it , It may n ot be too good with HTML but this is Email not Web page it is supposed to be PLAIN text not munged up HTML YMMV mine aint gunna Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 16:27 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

Full agreement here. This is the only list I am on that does what it does.

And all the lists I'm on behave like this one. >:-)

list. If all answers do not go to the list, then he list suffers.

I answers would go to the list by default, think about what happens with "vacation" autoresponders, specially the ones sent by outlook. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHGDkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V2KgCdE2lC/eqXw6kJRnsE2pRT2T8O UqUAoJdqjq7u4Sse+FlrlZnvIyOITYx9 =baaI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 17:09 +0100, Nico Sabbi wrote:

what kind of twisted reasoning is it? You can't build an infrastructure centered around the idiocy of bad-behaving users

Actually, we engineers do it all the time. What would safety belts needed for? Let's not have road accidents instead. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHH0kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UUsQCgmEpBo27h2a8CBFfjUuau0MkR kEEAniMUR0MPIaUWYUU2vpVoBTugRO8i =2tSX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I answers would go to the list by default, think about what happens with "vacation" autoresponders, specially the ones sent by outlook.

ban retards who dont act according to certain rules. thats what this discussion is actually all about. if people wouldnt send crap in private, wouldnt unsubscribe themselves in public and would act if they had brains, we wouldnt be having priceless discussions and turmoil like these. to fix the list is just one of the many steps to the solution regarding the general problem that sits in front of the keyboard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 02 February 2009 17:26:39 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

to fix the list is just one of the many steps to the solution regarding the general problem that sits in front of the keyboard.

Right. So, as the list has been fixed this way for years, you'd better fix your mailer instead :-P

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

this means working around problems and keeping them, not solving them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 19:37 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2009/02/02 16:58 (GMT+0100) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

I answers would go to the list by default, think about what happens with "vacation" autoresponders, specially the ones sent by outlook.

Errata: says "I answers" should be "If answers"

I fail to understand how any list admin can justify not auto-unsubscribing any address that subjects a list to an autoreponse.

Not so. Of course the admin will unsubscribe that person, but it means manual intervention, by which time thousands emails may have already been sent round a thousand times, inundating us all. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHpHsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VEmgCglhAg7NmMt8QLVcmrEenCxygz TYcAn3ojekDHY8T0jCCRDH9hg909TzCX =3Kwt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 21:10 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Of course the admin will unsubscribe that person, but it means manual intervention

Why should it? My contention is that any sensible list software ought to be able to recognize all the common auto-reponses, and intercept them, preventing subscribers from receiving them, and also subjecting the sender's mailing address to removal from the list.

No, because with the current method the autoreplies are not sent to the list, but to the OP. The list server does not see them, and doesn't need to be designed designed to remove them; I think. There are no mail loops. If the reply is sent directly by default to the list, then you need to detect loops and autoreplies, because they are a real danger. You can not simply change the reply-to on the server and expect it to work. You also need a different software and set of tools. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHtU0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XmLQCgiItnUkW4dYt21WL0LbG7ZOWr FB0AniZ3tqklC1U6kibjZwVL+gyXgNSz =KLi4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-02-03 at 09:50 +0100, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

I answers would go to the list by default, think about what happens with "vacation" autoresponders, specially the ones sent by outlook.

Errata: says "I answers" should be "If answers"

I think we already had a consensus that Microsoft Outlook should be outlawed, as well as Microsoft Outlook Express? ;-)

Just kidding.

:-)

But seriously, what are the odds that someone on a mailing list devoted to a Linux distribution will use a Microsoft-only MUA? Even if that distro has close ties with Microsoft? There are a few people, but not many.

Curiously, there are quite some of them. If you are subscribed to the opensuse security list, you get those "out of office" emails sent by that "family" on certain epochs. And of all lists, it is peculiar on the security one: It appears that people involved in linux setups subscribe using their business mail... and they may not have a choice of mailer. Many of those with the out of office messages never post on the list - except when they go on holidays, and then we learn that their business (maybe) use linux ;-) If you run some grep on the mailheaders you will find some, but I don't know what exactly to search for. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmIJ3YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UecwCdFAs1qz7/riZiOGnLRHyuoL9P I6AAnj5qUyRaJz52tcwEjIWeZ+ErGgsf =UEf1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-02-03 at 15:23 +0100, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

On Tue, February 3, 2009 12:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

If you run some grep on the mailheaders you will find some, but I don't know what exactly to search for.

Something like this?

amedee@intrepid { ~ }$ find ~/Maildir/.linux.opensuse/cur -type f -print0 | xargs -0 egrep -hi "(User-Agent)|(X-Mailer): " | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head -n 30

Yep. You could try grepmail, too. But not surprisingly, outlook does not create that header, afaik, it has to be deduced. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmIVtQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WgbgCfb9dNAeM8vRT7Aw0UNQ+3frUy udQAoIUDnUbNQekuRaPFfEYETSwbmH5B =d+4w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

amedee@intrepid { ~ }$ find ~/Maildir/.linux.opensuse/cur -type f -print0 | xargs -0 egrep -hi "(User-Agent)|(X-Mailer): " | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | grep -i "Outlook" 5 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512

seems it doesn't always create it - just searched the headers of one of my own posts (after it returned, of course!) - I'm using Outlook 2007 + Exchange 2007, and the only thing there remotely interesting are a couple of X-MS-* headers.. Phil -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

amedee@intrepid { ~ }$ find ~/Maildir/.linux.opensuse/cur -type f -print0 | xargs -0 egrep -hi "(User-Agent)|(X-Mailer): " | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | grep -i "Outlook" 5 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512

seems it doesn't always create it - just searched the headers of one of my own posts (after it returned, of course!) - I'm using Outlook 2007 + Exchange 2007, and the only thing there remotely interesting are a couple of X-MS-* headers..

That's what I meant. There is also "Thread-Topic:" and "Thread-Index:", which are usually coupled with the absence of "In-Reply-To" - but it is not your case.

So I have nicely formed headers.. perhaps.. and yet after hours of searching, I cannot find any way of having a nice way of replying to the list - seems this is just simply not something M$ think people ever need or want to do.. I'd like to be able to designate a folder as containing a list, which set a few sensible defaults - like indenting (as above) the original text and positioning the cursor at the bottom, and setting the reply address as the list.. alas, I have to do it all manually.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 13:29:14 Carlos E. R. wrote:

Alpine mail list, that its developers use, is also set like this list, replies go to the poster >:-}

Which tell enough what people involved with email find correct way ;-) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 16:16 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hi,

on 02/02/2009 03:13 PM Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2009/02/02 14:43 (GMT+0100) Henne Vogelsang composed:

...

we keep discussing this over and over again with the same arguments. Nothing has changed. We decided and thats how it is.

Both ways have their good and their bad.

True.

...

Why not create an individual setup option that segregates listserver outgoing according to preference, allowing both camps to get what they want?

It is not possible with the software we use. People already posted different ways to achieve this locally why not use those?

I don't think a settable preference is in the right spirit either. The quality of the list is less in the control of the list with the current setup. Do all responses get posted back to the list? Not if one uses the knee-jerk Reply button as opposed to the (in my case SUSE list-only) ReplyToAll button. To get all messages defaulting to the list no matter which button you press requires that all members do 'the right thing' in their mail client. Whereas, I think the list should ensure it's own quality first - no matter which button you press the list gets a copy. Users who want to make their responses private can choose to set THAT up themselves. The default is backwards. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about a large city with all construction finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 10:33 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Felix Miata <mrmazda@ij.net> [02-02-09 09:14]:

...

This one will inevitably end, but others will inevitably start. It will remain inevitable as long as the general minority status quo is retained.

Both ways have their good and their bad. Why not create an individual setup option that segregates listserver outgoing according to preference, allowing both camps to get what they want?

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html

You have so little control over your own system that you are unable to accomplish this at your own box? If so, please ask for a local solution. Many of us can provide you a procmail recipe that will make your desired functionality a reality at your own machine while not imposing any change on the actual list actions or it's software.

Your complaints are but empty air when you have an equitable solution available and refuse to implement it, ie: Bitching just to be Bitching!

Gee, I would say to the list maintainers: not considering an alternative just because you control the thing. I often get the feeling that the sometimes seemingly disconnected discussions I read here are partly due to this awkward default. A message or two were accidentally sent to the originator and not the list. I can't see how anyone could argue that a list should set things up so it is susceptible to this. Or that it should rely on users of unknown levels of expertise to do what the list seems not to want to do for itself: ensure that as many responses as possible get to the list and do not go astray. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about a large city with all construction finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, February 2, 2009 16:47, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Roger Oberholtzer <roger@opq.se> [02-02-09 10:43]:

...

Gee, I would say to the list maintainers: not considering an alternative just because you control the thing.

I often get the feeling that the sometimes seemingly disconnected discussions I read here are partly due to this awkward default. A message or two were accidentally sent to the originator and not the list. I can't see how anyone could argue that a list should set things up so it is susceptible to this. Or that it should rely on users of unknown levels of expertise to do what the list seems not to want to do for itself: ensure that as many responses as possible get to the list and do not go astray.

And EVERYONE should drive on the left side of the road and their email sigs should contain more verbage than the total intelligent content of the post. </end> -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Was that sarcasm? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 16:52 +0100, Nico Sabbi wrote:

are you kidding? the problem should be solved at the root: where the problem lies (the mail server settings), not where the it shows its effects

What problem? >:-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHH50ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UeYACgl0+LM9OZ8Qd//XyYYbKARBtS K3EAoIoZh5+XR5/vNLT8rikXHPEdRYjp =Y0Kl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Roger Oberholtzer <roger@opq.se> wrote:

[Please wait while I edit the To and CC fields in my ReplyToAll on this list... OK. Done. Sorry for the delay...]

What client/mail do you use?

Um, the Reply button not returning the message to the list. Surely user interface testers have looked at how people use e-mail clients. What are their expectations about that the pretty little buttons do. How many expect to press a button labeled Reply when they want to reply.

In gmail, which I use for these lists, when I hit reply to all, it has your email in the To: and Cc: to opensuse@opensuse.org for the majority of replies. Now, some manage to just have it To: opensuse. I have no idea why there's a difference. I do know that I get bitched at for sending a private email almost every time I forgot to remove the OP's email. And, I do sometimes hit just reply, which then just shows the OP's email address. I got in the habit of hitting reply to all so that it will at least always go to the list. In gmail, when someone replies to me and the list, it only shows 1 message, but it does show multiple senders in the from area.

I subscribed to the list. Not to each individual on it. When a message arrives, I see it as coming from the list, not from any individual. Sorry folk: on this list we are all just faceless drones :) When I Reply, it is to the thing I subscribed to: the list.

In gmail, it says who it's from. So, I'm not sure why yours works that way. How many different clients/ways are there? If anyone knows how to change gmail so that it will only reply to the list when I click reply to all, I'd be grateful. Not trying to rehash anything that has already been gone over. Would just like to figure out a better way to do this. I like gmail because it threads replies by default, which makes it very easy to keep up with lists. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Ken Schneider <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> wrote:

...

If anyone knows how to change gmail so that it will only reply to the list when I click reply to all, I'd be grateful.

Complain to Google.

I will.

Not actually, it creates its "threads" based on the subject line _not_ the headers which is the proper way to do. Again Google's way. I guess their programmers aren't savvy enough to figure it out.

True. Because an email client that inserts a "re:" will get moved to a new thread. However, that is better than my netscape email(which is now AIM unfortunately, but it's a 10 year old address that I don't wanna lose, and I haven't used an on machine mail client in 15 years, and I'm on too many machines in a day to depend on a client). Trying to keep up with mailing lists on that is a bloody mess. Further, I noticed that I see many times that there are multiple To:s listed and the email is only listed once. There are 2 such in this thread. So, either everyone else's clients are comfigured properly, or they are like me and endeavor to edit out the reply to:s. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

Gmail only keeps the first copy you get, the rest are unceremoniously deleted. Which is also a mistake, you don't even see your own posts in the list, and thus, new users think their post was not posted, and repost and repost.

Actually, it does show it, it just doesn't update the thread until another new message has been received. That's definitely a quirk, but one that doesn't bother me much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

Not really. It shows the one you sent to the list, but not the copy you received from the list. They are different, although they have the same Message-ID.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of when I start a new message. I guess it technically doesn't matter, but I do see your point. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Roger Oberholtzer <roger@opq.se> [02-02-09 16:27]:

Mine says who it is from as well. There is never any doubt that it comes from the list. I use procmail to sort the mails from the list into a specific folder. My point was that I consider the mail as coming from the collective list, not from any specific individual. As such, I expect to reply to the list as well: it is an answer to the collective list, not only to an individual.

----------------------------------------------------------- :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse | /usr/bin/formail -bfi "Reply-To:opensuse@opensuse.org" :0 a: $HOME/Mail/IN-OpenSuse ----------------------------------------------------------- or remove the last two lines of the recipe and insert your own present recipe. This will make *your* email client work the way *you* want/expect it to and not change the way anyone else sees it. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 02 February 2009 15:36:19 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Roger Oberholtzer <roger@opq.se> [02-02-09 16:27]:

...

It also begs the question: if the list behavior is correct, why is everyone banging their chests and saying they can fix it in their latest greatest client?

"banging their chests".... They are *only* offering you an option to achieve *your* desired function. It is *not* a *fix* as the function is already correct in our/their minds.

+1 and: http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

On Tue, 2009-02-03 at 00:51 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.0902030042551.13654@nimrodel.valinor>

On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 22:20 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

Still, asking me which client I use pinpoints the whole issue. The list should not leave it up to the vagaries of e-mail clients and people's willingness to constantly fiddle with them, when an alternative is that the source of the e-mails set things right.

Nop. The list leaves you the freedom of:

- reply to the original poster - reply to all - reply to the list

A proper mail client should make any of the three options easy, and I believe evolution has such a setting.

[...]

In fact, I have just set up evolution for a new user on my system, sent there a copy of this very thread, and tried. If you hit "ctrl-L" evolution opens a reply to the list in the proper manner, so I don't know why you are complaining.

Ctrl-L in evolution openSUSE 11.1 does nothing. At least, not out of the box. I don't want/need a tutorial here. Wanting to provide one misses my whole point. I really wonder why the basic complaint that is being made is not understood. I know damned well that there is a button in Evolution to (1) reply to the poster and not the list [Reply], or (2) reply to the list and cc the poster [ReplyToAll]. My point is that for every single other e-mail or list I reply to, I need only press [Reply] to get the mail where it should go. In the case of the list, it is, well, to the list that I expect replies to want to go to by default. Only for SUSE must I press a different key. I have been doing this for years and am still alive. I can handle it. I am a techy sort of guy. It is not an ability issue. It is a question of why this list insists on a default that decreases the chance that responses go to the list and increases the chance that they only go to the original poster. Raise you hands: how many have accidentally pressed a button to answer a message, and it only went to the list, and not the poster. I suspect there will be very few, if any, posters. Now, raise your hands if you answered, but it accidentally only went to the poster and not the list. I expect there will be many more hands raised. Even if you raised your hand the first time, the message you sent was seen by all, including the original poster who, one assumes subscribes to the list.

Evolution even has a context menu for mailing lists, offering subscribe, unsubscribe, contact the owner... etc. All automatically!

Back to my point: if the list is set up correct, why are you suggesting I need to fiddle with my mail settings to get a simple reply to go to the list? I agree that this thread is dead. I really do have a job to get back to. It has been fun. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about a large city with all construction finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 12:10:00 Steve Jeppesen wrote:

can you all take this somewhere else - enough.

Why? No one obliges you to read the thread. If there are more arguments to discuss why should we stop only because you are annoyed? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 12:16:30 Steve Jeppesen wrote:

On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:15:14 +0100

Nico Sabbi <Nicola.Sabbi@poste.it> wrote:

...

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 12:10:00 Steve Jeppesen wrote:

...

can you all take this somewhere else - enough.

Why? No one obliges you to read the thread. If there are more arguments to discuss why should we stop only because you are annoyed?

darn filter list getting bigger everyday,

enjoy yourself in the trash bin.

If this is how you usually behave I'm sure I'll find much better mates in your filter bin than under your eyes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-02-03 at 09:35 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

Ctrl-L in evolution openSUSE 11.1 does nothing. At least, not out of the box.

Report it in Bugzilla. In 11.0 it does have it out of the box.

list that I expect replies to want to go to by default. Only for SUSE must I press a different key.

All the lists I'm susbscribed to behave like this one. The exception is one yahoogroups.

I have been doing this for years and am still alive. I can handle it. I am a techy sort of guy. It is not an ability issue. It is a question of why this list insists on a default that decreases the chance that responses go to the list and increases the chance that they only go to the original poster.

The whys have been already explained. Ok, you don't agree, fine :-)

Raise you hands: how many have accidentally pressed a button to answer a message, and it only went to the list, and not the poster. I suspect there will be very few, if any, posters. Now, raise your hands if you answered, but it accidentally only went to the poster and not the list. I expect there will be many more hands raised.

Even if you raised your hand the first time, the message you sent was seen by all, including the original poster who, one assumes subscribes to the list.

Chances are that one is a very private message that would ashame the poster if seen in public. I prefer the chances to send a private mail by mistake than a public one by mistake.

...

Evolution even has a context menu for mailing lists, offering subscribe, unsubscribe, contact the owner... etc. All automatically!

Back to my point: if the list is set up correct, why are you suggesting I need to fiddle with my mail settings to get a simple reply to go to the list?

That's not fidling. It's using one's MUA interface.

I agree that this thread is dead. I really do have a job to get back to. It has been fun.

Ok. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmIKdQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UpzgCeM5MHnLWhWM2hmUTVz2jrBnwT JagAnjni8Hvr3Wm9/B6NAWSdm4ipmj8G =14wE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 17:50 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Monday, 2009-02-02 at 16:52 +0100, Nico Sabbi wrote:

...

are you kidding? the problem should be solved at the root: where the problem lies (the mail server settings), not where the it shows its effects

What problem? >:-P

[Please wait while I edit the To and CC fields in my ReplyToAll on this list... OK. Done. Sorry for the delay...]

Um, the Reply button not returning the message to the list. Surely user

I see you did not see the sarcasm in my post >:-P But I see you are using evolution, and, if I'm not mistaken, you have a reply-to-list key or function. Just use it. I don't have to even think how to reply-on-list. My local software is set up properly and adds a reply-to locally for each list.

In the long run, whoever has the job of maintaining the list gets to decide...

Right! They did that. :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmHShwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UGLwCfQp6c/Itkbtnc96wF8n0RmkvZ Ib0AnjsrvAT8nZKw2s4GJTj0L5EO639G =TJV9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/02 16:24 (GMT-0800) Jerry Houston composed:

On Monday 02 February 2009 07:52:57 Nico Sabbi wrote:

...

are you kidding? the problem should be solved at the root: where the problem lies (the mail server settings), not where the it shows its effects

You're absolutely right about solving it at the root, but you're sadly mistaken about where the root is.

An email client that treats email headers correctly will send a reply to a list message to the list.

They're available (and have been mentioned here), and they run on your SuSE system. At least one is probably already installed on it. If you insist on using a broken or nonstandard client, don't complain to the list admins about how difficult things are for you.

I think you're overlooking a deeper root. No smaller a problem than list posts not getting sent where intended or technical violation of 2833 (which is not law) is the recurring pollution from threads about the subject. The most effective overall fix would be munging, assuming the list software could not be changed to accommodate a user preference on the issue. Of the many lists I'm on, the complaints about "bad" reply behavior come almost exclusively on lists that do not munge. And, this one is the one where they recur most vehemently and frequently. FWIW, the primary user help list for the most popular Linux distro was munging when I was last subscribed there. -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/02 19:56 (GMT-0600) Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. composed:

On Monday 02 February 2009 18:49:26 Felix Miata wrote:

...

I think you're overlooking a deeper root.

Yes, poorly or wrongly trained users. :P

Of which there are many, as well as non-trained. And there always will be. It's a problem with no hope for direct solution. Munging is a useful workaround.

...

No smaller a problem than list posts not getting sent where intended or technical violation of 2833 (which is not law) is the recurring pollution from threads about the subject.

RFC 2833 may not be law, but standards shouldn't be taken lightly. Standards (*particularly RFCs*) are what allows us to interoperate. They are the foundation of the Internet. E.g. TCP, UDP, and IP are all RFCs.

TCP, UDP & IP RFC violations aren't created by large masses of people unaware of the rules, quite unlike the top posters, full quoters, improper quoters, and reply to everybody because the default list behavior is directly to author mailing list subscribers. The authors of 2833 have taken an ivory tower position. An option for mailing list managers to be treated equivalent to authors would be well justfied if typical list behavior and popular email software realities were substituted for the ivory tower approach.

...

Of the many lists I'm on, the complaints about "bad" reply behavior come almost exclusively on lists that do not munge.

On lists that do not munge, I've never had anyone send a message to the list that was meant for private mail. Regular complainers can be killfiled and missed messages can be resent, but messages to the list can't be unposted.

Mistaken destination sending occurs infrequently and its "offenders" learn quickly, both to be careful in those infrequent cases when a private reply is appropriate, and that an important purpose of most list posting is shared responses, both timely, and in the archives. OTOH, messages that arrive late or never result in more genuine inconvenience than bruised egos, and solutions received too late to help, or never (additionally a killfile product). Oh, and newbies starting threads about defaulting to sender don't happen on munging lists.

...

And, this one is the one where they recur most vehemently and frequently.

Well, then perhaps you aren't subscribed to the Debian mailing lists.

I sampled there some time back, but I was never a Debian fan anyway.

...

FWIW, the primary user help list for the most popular Linux distro was munging when I was last subscribed there.

Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is right.

Often popularity is a good indicator of what is right. -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/02 21:22 (GMT-0600) Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. composed:

On Monday 02 February 2009 20:42:59 Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2009/02/02 19:56 (GMT-0600) Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. composed:

...

...

Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is right.

...

Often popularity is a good indicator of what is right.

I disagree. Often popularity is a good indicator of what is "easy". Usually doing something correctly takes more effort then get "getting it done".

Often does not equate to usually. Two "often" things in the same universe are not mutually exclusive. Getting it right may or may not "usually" take more effort. I've never seen stats on that subject, but it seems a bit like an application of the words "never" or "always" to me. Consider also Occam's Razor. Popular is something we like to have our favorite distro described as. Is openSUSE the most popular? Not according to stats I've seen. What does the most popular distro, and others that are highly popular do, and does that behavior contribute to their popularity? I would think that email support lists that predictably behave the way most users expect lists to behave would contribute to popularity. These top-10 that I am or have been on munge: *buntu-users, fedora*, mandriva*. I've never been on other top-10 except opensuse*, but my experience is thus 3-1 unweighted in favor of munging. -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

contribute to popularity. These top-10 that I am or have been on munge: <snip> ...................... in favor of munging.

OK, I give, WTF are munge & munging? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> To: "suse" <opensuse@opensuse.org> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [opensuse] There will be no reply-to-muning on this list

Felix Miata wrote:

...

contribute to popularity. These top-10 that I am or have been on munge: <snip> ...................... in favor of munging.

OK,

I give, WTF are munge & munging?

To munge just means to alter or modify. Usually for some good intention, but really the more important thing to think about is that the data was altered, which IMO is just about always more trouble than it's worth. A classic example is ftp. The ftp protocol (or maybe it's just something every ftp daemon or client impliments by convention and isn't really part of the protocol spec itself I don't know) includes a feature to automatically translate the line-endings in plain text data passing from one platform to another when those platforms have diferent line-ending conventions. The most common example is between dos/windows and unix, but mac used to have a different convention too. The idea was to have files that "just worked" from the users point of view on both sides. You have a text file on unix that a user wrote in vi. It looks fine to him. A windows user downloads it via ftp and he expects to look at it in notepad. If the the ftp transfer was done in ascii mode, then all the LF's in the original unix file were replaced with CRLF along the way, and in that case, the file does "just work" and the windows user will see sensible lines in notepad that look the same as what the unix vi user saw. The data was munged by ftp. I personally wish that feature were never incorporated into ftp however, because it has been the result of countless countless "bad downloads" where the ftp client mistakenly decided that some file was plain text and that it was OK to modify the data. I still have to help practically every one of the other developers in my shop any time they have to deal with any EDI transactions that go over ftp. If the people on both sides were simply required to know that there even are such things as different line-endings, at least on our end we can read and write any kind of data just fine. If it has CRLF's and we need to generate data with them, that's fine. It's only trying to hide the difference and trying to automatically translate it using too simple of a rule that has caused no end of head banging by people who don't happen to be sys admins but higher level developers that expect their data to be handled without being modified by the communication layer. sysadmins too. They download a floppy image or a tar file on a windows box because the old sco unix or xenix box at the customer site has no internet, then drive xxx miles out to customer site and the floppy or tar is junk. Notice that the newer invention sftp has no such feature. -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://profile.to/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-02-07 at 01:51 -0500, Brian K. White wrote:

A classic example is ftp. The ftp protocol (or maybe it's just something every ftp daemon or client impliments by convention and isn't really part of the protocol spec itself I don't know) includes a feature to automatically translate the line-endings in plain text data passing from one platform to another when those platforms have diferent line-ending conventions. The most common example is between dos/windows and unix, but mac used to have a different convention too.

Thats "ascii" mode in ftp. Just tell your client to use always "binary" mode. It is your choice :-p Without ascii mode, you can not "read" a text file on the screen of ftp (command less below) if the server is of different line-ending than your machine: cer@nimrodel:~/tmp> ftp localhost Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. 220 "Welcome to nimrodel FTP service." Name (localhost:cer): anonymous 331 Please specify the password. Password: 230 Login successful. Remote system type is UNIX. Using binary mode to transfer files. ftp> ftp> help ascii ascii set ascii transfer type ftp> help binary binary set binary transfer type ftp> help less less view a remote file through your pager ftp> help more more view a remote file through your pager - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmNd8EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W6kwCff96UAVMY/GVMKzYsLuZUnfT7 6+YAn0niUyM2sL1NFaE4GPH+aAHjrOub =Gofv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, February 3, 2009 02:56, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

...

FWIW, the primary user help list for the most popular Linux distro was munging when I was last subscribed there.

Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is right.

What, slackware? /me hides behind his desk... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org