Greg Thomas wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Tim Hanson wrote:
I can't figure out why these detractors jump on the price of SuSE Professional, comparing it to M$. Invariably they make the comparison based on the lowly client version of Win98. In truth, they should be comparing it to Windows 2000 Data Center, especially now with the 2.4 kernel. How much does Microsoft charge for unlimited seats on that software, complete with all tools to manage the enterprise? With "Open Licensing?" Let's not forget that the customer is free to put Linux on as many boxes as desired, and burn as many CDs as necessary to accomplish the job, for $79.99. All they can't do is take YaST, recompile it with their own name, and sell the result as their own distribution. That's it.
Except that, one, we're talking home use here,
Last I saw, for home use the price was $30. Home users simply don't need the whole $80 package, at least that was the rationalle at SuSE.
$79.99 is nothing for most businesses but it is for home users 3x per year,
Right. $90/year if one chooses to update all three times. Unlike Microsoft, updates aren't force fed.
and two, this is Linux, as much as it is nice to support a company that does a lot of Linux development one can still go to another vendor, it's just a little less convenient.
Red Hat is still charging $80 for less than one gets in the $30 SuSE Personal package.
Greg
-- Food for thought is no substitute for the real thing. -- Walt Kelly, "Putluck Pogo"
Last I saw, for home use the price was $30. Home users simply don't need the whole $80 package, at least that was the rationalle at SuSE.
I'm both a home user, and a SOHO user on a shoe string budget for OSes. I like the features in the Pro edition (I don't want to give up any thing that was in 6.4!), but I definately can't pay $70 for it 2x or 3x a year.
$79.99 is nothing for most businesses but it is for home users 3x per year,
Right. $90/year if one chooses to update all three times. Unlike Microsoft, updates aren't force fed.
MS updates aren't force fed, where did you get that idea. Until recently my Windows setup was running Windows 98 (first edition)... I only upgraded because I wanted Win2k (so I'd see less BSOD's). I probably won't upgrade again for years.
Red Hat is still charging $80 for less than one gets in the $30 SuSE Personal package.
True, but RH shouldn't be a good comparison. They have been charging way to much for their Linux products for years. Caldera is much more reasonable, along with Mandrake (although Ben Rosenberg sounded like he had some trouble with it, just like I did), and Slackware (which I hear has a new GUI installer - anyone seen it?). -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Christian Web Services Since 1996 tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ============== "If the atheists are right, I'll never know, but if I'm right, they will definitely know!"
On Friday 09 February 2001 15:33, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Last I saw, for home use the price was $30. Home users simply don't need the whole $80 package, at least that was the rationalle at SuSE.
I'm both a home user, and a SOHO user on a shoe string budget for OSes. I like the features in the Pro edition (I don't want to give up any thing that was in 6.4!), but I definately can't pay $70 for it 2x or 3x a year.
$79.99 is nothing for most businesses but it is for home users 3x per year,
Right. $90/year if one chooses to update all three times. Unlike Microsoft, updates aren't force fed.
MS updates aren't force fed, where did you get that idea. Until recently my Windows setup was running Windows 98 (first edition)... I only upgraded because I wanted Win2k (so I'd see less BSOD's). I probably won't upgrade again for years.
You've been reading too many M$ 'white papers'. How long has Win95 been out? M$ announced they will no sell or longer support it. Or was that Win98? That means no one is going to write new software for it or maintain existing software for it. Win95 users are now frozen in time. They are on their own little island. They will NOT be able to add a patch to make the USB more functional, if at all. They won't be able to use the newest and latest features. Their version of Word won't be able to read *.doc files written by the W2K version of Word, so if they are in business and ther customers and sources start sending them W2K docs and email, etc., they won't be able to read them. Then there was Win98, quickly followed by the bug fix Win98SE, followed by WinME, Win2K and the recently announced vaporware, Whistler! When do you think support for Win98 will be dropped, especially if sales of W2K continue moribund. If your computer is only a hobby it probably doesn't matter. If you are feeding your family then it will matter. (Seeing how you said you just upgraded from Win98 FE, you trully are a hobbiest user.) It's interesting to note the recent ads M$ ran. They pointed out the lack of stability and reliability in other OSs to sell the consumer on switching to Win2000. Those other OSs? Win95 and Win98. Truely amazing! Bill Gates has been denying for years that there were any bugs in his software or that they were unstable. Now he's attacking his own software to sell W2K !!! JLK -- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781
Saw that add too, showing a big blue screen with a pair of scissors.... Sad... Matt On Friday 09 February 2001 08:16 pm, Jerry Kreps wrote:
On Friday 09 February 2001 15:33, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Last I saw, for home use the price was $30. Home users simply don't need the whole $80 package, at least that was the rationalle at SuSE.
I'm both a home user, and a SOHO user on a shoe string budget for OSes. I like the features in the Pro edition (I don't want to give up any thing that was in 6.4!), but I definately can't pay $70 for it 2x or 3x a year.
$79.99 is nothing for most businesses but it is for home users 3x per year,
Right. $90/year if one chooses to update all three times. Unlike Microsoft, updates aren't force fed.
MS updates aren't force fed, where did you get that idea. Until recently my Windows setup was running Windows 98 (first edition)... I only upgraded because I wanted Win2k (so I'd see less BSOD's). I probably won't upgrade again for years.
You've been reading too many M$ 'white papers'. How long has Win95 been out? M$ announced they will no sell or longer support it. Or was that Win98? That means no one is going to write new software for it or maintain existing software for it. Win95 users are now frozen in time. They are on their own little island. They will NOT be able to add a patch to make the USB more functional, if at all. They won't be able to use the newest and latest features. Their version of Word won't be able to read *.doc files written by the W2K version of Word, so if they are in business and ther customers and sources start sending them W2K docs and email, etc., they won't be able to read them. Then there was Win98, quickly followed by the bug fix Win98SE, followed by WinME, Win2K and the recently announced vaporware, Whistler! When do you think support for Win98 will be dropped, especially if sales of W2K continue moribund.
If your computer is only a hobby it probably doesn't matter. If you are feeding your family then it will matter. (Seeing how you said you just upgraded from Win98 FE, you trully are a hobbiest user.) It's interesting to note the recent ads M$ ran. They pointed out the lack of stability and reliability in other OSs to sell the consumer on switching to Win2000. Those other OSs? Win95 and Win98. Truely amazing! Bill Gates has been denying for years that there were any bugs in his software or that they were unstable. Now he's attacking his own software to sell W2K !!! JLK
Ya, it is. But, if they will lie in court, under oath, and use rigged tapes in court, then lying to consumers is a walk in the park for them. They are pros at that. The real sadness is that John Q. Public remains so clueless and uninformed. Gates greed will be his undoing, however. His primary business model has switched to suing his cusomters for piracy. Isn't it interesting to note how M$ can sue their customer for "breach" of contract but their customers can't sue M$ for the same offense... THAT is really sad. JLK On Friday 09 February 2001 22:28, Matthew wrote:
Saw that add too, showing a big blue screen with a pair of scissors....
Sad...
Matt
On Friday 09 February 2001 08:16 pm, Jerry Kreps wrote:
On Friday 09 February 2001 15:33, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Last I saw, for home use the price was $30. Home users simply don't need the whole $80 package, at least that was the rationalle at SuSE.
I'm both a home user, and a SOHO user on a shoe string budget for OSes. I like the features in the Pro edition (I don't want to give up any thing that was in 6.4!), but I definately can't pay $70 for it 2x or 3x a year.
$79.99 is nothing for most businesses but it is for home users 3x per year,
Right. $90/year if one chooses to update all three times. Unlike Microsoft, updates aren't force fed.
MS updates aren't force fed, where did you get that idea. Until recently my Windows setup was running Windows 98 (first edition)... I only upgraded because I wanted Win2k (so I'd see less BSOD's). I probably won't upgrade again for years.
You've been reading too many M$ 'white papers'. How long has Win95 been out? M$ announced they will no sell or longer support it. Or was that Win98? That means no one is going to write new software for it or maintain existing software for it. Win95 users are now frozen in time. They are on their own little island. They will NOT be able to add a patch to make the USB more functional, if at all. They won't be able to use the newest and latest features. Their version of Word won't be able to read *.doc files written by the W2K version of Word, so if they are in business and ther customers and sources start sending them W2K docs and email, etc., they won't be able to read them. Then there was Win98, quickly followed by the bug fix Win98SE, followed by WinME, Win2K and the recently announced vaporware, Whistler! When do you think support for Win98 will be dropped, especially if sales of W2K continue moribund.
If your computer is only a hobby it probably doesn't matter. If you are feeding your family then it will matter. (Seeing how you said you just upgraded from Win98 FE, you trully are a hobbiest user.) It's interesting to note the recent ads M$ ran. They pointed out the lack of stability and reliability in other OSs to sell the consumer on switching to Win2000. Those other OSs? Win95 and Win98. Truely amazing! Bill Gates has been denying for years that there were any bugs in his software or that they were unstable. Now he's attacking his own software to sell W2K !!! JLK
-- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781
Hi Jerry,
You've been reading too many M$ 'white papers'. How long has
Never read one, are they good?
Win95 been out? M$ announced they will no sell or longer support it.
True. But you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. BTW, I think you can even still buy Win95 if you are a business.
Or was that Win98?
Not yet - even BestBuy still sells Win98, and Dell still offers it as the OEM OS installed on systems.
That means no one is going to write new software for it or maintain existing software for it. Win95 users are now frozen in time. They are on their own little island. They will NOT be able to add a patch to make the USB more functional, if at all. They won't be able to use the newest
Granted. But, if they were using Win95, most likely they don't use USB on that computer. Their next computer will come with USB and WinME or 2k.
and latest features. Their version of Word won't be able to read *.doc files written by the W2K version of Word, so if they are in business and ther customers and sources start sending them W2K docs and email,
True. Although, I have Word 2k configured to save in 97 format... (although I mainly work in WP format).
etc., they won't be able to read them. Then there was Win98, quickly followed by the bug fix Win98SE, followed by WinME, Win2K and the
Win98SE cost $20 to upgrade to for 98 users, Me was simply $49.
recently announced vaporware, Whistler! When do you think support for Win98 will be dropped, especially if sales of W2K continue moribund.
Maybe.
If your computer is only a hobby it probably doesn't matter. If you are feeding your family then it will matter. (Seeing how you said you just upgraded from Win98 FE, you trully are a hobbiest user.) It's
No I am not. I simply had no reason to (until my Win98 installation bought the farm). When I do all of my real work by e-mail or in a text editor uploading to a Linux server, why waist the money? I don't need to! Exactly the same reason why MS can't get Win2k to sell well.
Those other OSs? Win95 and Win98. Truely amazing! Bill Gates has been denying for years that there were any bugs in his software or that they were unstable. Now he's attacking his own software to sell W2K !!!
Yeah. I like the cut out BSOD they include in each issue of eWeek. -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Christian Web Services Since 1996 tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ============== "If the atheists are right, I'll never know, but if I'm right, they will definitely know!"
Hi Jerry,
You've been reading too many M$ 'white papers'. How long has
Never read one, are they good?
Win95 been out? M$ announced they will no sell or longer support it.
True. But you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. BTW, I think you can even still buy Win95 if you are a business. I remember back in the DOS days that MS would actually cut off the supply of all the previous versions before they released the new ones. Since we were
On Saturday 10 February 2001 23:22, Timothy R. Butler wrote: pushing boxes we needed a license to ship with each. It could really become a PITA. One time it go so bad the only coppies of DOS we could find in the whole DC area were bad counterfeit. Talk about dictating terms to your customer!
That means no one is going to write new software for it or maintain existing software for it. Win95 users are now frozen in time. They are on their own little island. They will NOT be able to add a patch to make the USB more functional, if at all. They won't be able to use the newest
Granted. But, if they were using Win95, most likely they don't use USB on that computer. Their next computer will come with USB and WinME or 2k.
Or Linux!
True. Although, I have Word 2k configured to save in 97 format... (although I mainly work in WP format).
What the world needs is a good _open_ XML office documentation interchange format. To be quite honest, the reason I am not working on problems at that level is because I find there are problems which exist between the kernel and the UI level that deserve (or demand) my attention. For example do an ls /usr/X11R6/bin and tell me what application owns what file in that listing. Talk about a c:\winnt\system32 from hell! How do we maintain such a mess? suppose I want to completely remove _everything_ from my X11 install and start fresh. How do I do this without also messing up all the other installs that have infested the X11 file tree? How can we fix this when so much already relies on the "broken" implementation?
Win98SE cost $20 to upgrade to for 98 users, Me was simply $49.
I agree with you on this one. That is, assuming this is actually an *upgrade*. Why would anybody stay with 7 year old technology when it's easy to keep up with more recent innovations. Heck, I can't stand using last weeks technology. I have limited experience with 95, less than an hour with 98 and I don't know if I've even seen DOS/Windows ME. I have extensive experience with NT from its first beta to W2K. NT 4.6 seems to work better for me than W2K-b2. The latter OS is just plain unstable as a desktop. The only reason I ever boot into W2K (which is on the other side of the boot I am currently using) is to run things such as XMetal or Word. I soon find myself trying to use CYGWin and XEmacs for Win32 as soon as I realize how many limitations there are, and how badly Swing runs in that environment I'm back to Linux.
Those other OSs? Win95 and Win98. Truely amazing! Bill Gates has been denying for years that there were any bugs in his software or that they were unstable. Now he's attacking his own software to sell W2K !!!
Yeah. I like the cut out BSOD they include in each issue of eWeek.
I saw someone else on this list describe their experience installing W2K and getting a BSOD almost immediately. Here too. I have a lot of problems with W2K. I'm not saying this because I don't like MS. I'm saying this because it is true. The OS doesn't work well for me. It just doesn't! But I should not be wasting my time knocking MS. I should be trying to improve Linux to the point where I am happy with it. If that is possible. (I mean for me to be satisfied with any OS) I will say the KDE 2.1 f*n' rocks! This thing is the Metallica of the Desktop! What is most impressive about it is the fact that these folks seem to have made a programming environment that allows for rapid development of slick quality product with all the cool desktop functionality we have come to expect, as well as many features we never expected. I am not easily impressed. This product impresses me very much. Steve
Granted. But, if they were using Win95, most likely they don't use USB on that computer. Their next computer will come with USB and WinME or 2k.
Or Linux!
True that is becoming possible. Especially with companies like Dell offering it right alongside Win2k and WinME on their site. The main problem I see with that, is that Dell still doesn't offer it as an option on all systems - only certain models... but it is real progress.
True. Although, I have Word 2k configured to save in 97 format... (although I mainly work in WP format).
What the world needs is a good _open_ XML office documentation interchange format. To be quite honest, the reason I am not working on
True. Although I'd just be happy if KWord could import and export MS Word and Corel WordPerfect files. KWord looks like it could be a lot more promising than the aging WP8, but it needs filters to succeed.
problems at that level is because I find there are problems which exist between the kernel and the UI level that deserve (or demand) my attention. For example do an ls /usr/X11R6/bin and tell me what application owns what file in that listing. Talk about a c:\winnt\system32 from hell! How do we maintain such a mess? suppose I want to completely remove _everything_ from my X11 install and start fresh. How do I do this without also messing up all the other installs that have infested the X11 file tree? How can we fix this when so much already relies on the "broken" implementation?
I don't know. I must say this seems to me an area where Windows is several steps ahead of UNIX. While the Windows and System directories get messy, most software installs most of it's files into a unique directory in the Program Files folder. It's something that would be nice to see adopted by the file layout standards.
Win98SE cost $20 to upgrade to for 98 users, Me was simply $49.
I agree with you on this one. That is, assuming this is actually an *upgrade*. Why would anybody stay with 7 year old technology when it's easy to keep up with more recent innovations. Heck, I can't stand using last weeks technology.
<grin> Me either.
I have limited experience with 95, less than an hour with 98 and I don't know if I've even seen DOS/Windows ME. I have extensive experience
ME is bloated like Win2k and unstable like Win98 - it's definately a step down except in ease of use.
with NT from its first beta to W2K. NT 4.6 seems to work better for me than W2K-b2. The latter OS is just plain unstable as a desktop. The only reason I
It's definately better than the betas... it's actually very stable (I haven't had a complete system crash yet in about a month of usage). Apps still crash of course.
I will say the KDE 2.1 f*n' rocks! This thing is the Metallica of the Desktop! What is most impressive about it is the fact that these folks seem to have made a programming environment that allows for rapid
Can't wait to try it - I haven't had time to download the 2.1-beta's yet (I'm running 2.0.1 final)... -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
True. Although, I have Word 2k configured to save in 97 format... (although I mainly work in WP format).
What the world needs is a good _open_ XML office documentation
interchange
format.
level is because I find there are problems which exist between the kernel and the UI level that deserve (or demand) my attention. For example do an ls /usr/X11R6/bin and tell me what application owns what file in that
Yes, I believe that would be awesome, I was just thinking about this today. To be quite honest, the reason I am not working on problems at that listing.
Talk about a c:\winnt\system32 from hell! How do we maintain such a mess? suppose I want to completely remove _everything_ from my X11 install and start fresh. How do I do this without also messing up all the other installs that have infested the X11 file tree? How can we fix this when so much already relies on the "broken" implementation?
These are some excellent questions and I believe they are worth working on. However, I don't see any simple answers. I read your other message but still don't think there is a convenient way to solve this issue.
I will say the KDE 2.1 f*n' rocks! This thing is the Metallica of the Desktop!
Metallica, isn't that a insult these days? Greg
On Saturday 10 February 2001 22:22, Timothy R. Butler wrote: <snip> Well, Tim, for a while I did believe you were an M$ raider, and when your email bounced on me I was wondering how you got onto this list. BTW, your still bouncing my replies. But, we work for the same carpenter 8-) and if you are genuine that makes me happy! Let's put this thread to bed. JLK
"If the atheists are right, I'll never know, but if I'm right, they will definitely know!"
-- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781
participants (6)
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Greg Thomas -
Jerry Kreps -
Matthew -
Steven T. Hatton -
Tim Hanson -
Timothy R. Butler