On Tuesday 20 November 2007 09:00:55 am you wrote:

Дана уторак 20 новембар 2007, Ben Kevan је написао(ла):

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On Tuesday 20 November 2007 02:53:15 am Scott Simpson wrote:

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Is anyone using KDE4 on 10.3? I get a desktop that isn't even usable. The start menu just has a big ? in it and it doesn't come up. The desktop is basically unusable. Anyway to fix it?

Hi Scott,

You don't give us enough information to help you. What version of KDE 4 are you running?

Be sure if you are going to test KDE 4 to install from the Build Service. I am using KDE 4 daily on my Dev box (but I don't think it's ready for production (at least Beta 4 is not)).

"Using daily" as in "testing how it works" or really using? I tried it every time I updated build service and built it myself a few times and right now KDE4 seams almost like usable to me. To be precise, most of the apps are quite ok (I had some problems with IMAP, but that is solved now), but the desktop looks strange. I hope that rc1 that should be due in a few days will bring better desktop. Does anyone know how to configure the kicker (for example position, width, height and so on) or how to add/remove applets to/from the kicker? If I want new applets I can always add them to the plasma desktop, but that's not what I would really want.

Hi Filip, I use it daily. When I say use it, I use Amarok, Kmail, Akkregator and many other apps I use to do my work. I just upgraded to 3.96.00 which I thought would have been the desktop RC1, but it seems as though it's still labeled Beta 4 (Strange today was supposed to be Desktop RC1 release, I would have at least expected to see it become Beta 5, maybe this is just a numbering issue). As far as kicker.. I haven't done anything with it or the applets I just use a konsole currently and run what I have to. It does seem that the kicker is still unusable and most applets / plasmoids are worthless and they are actually worse off in 3.96.00 then they were in the later 3.95 builds. The did add some funky box around the plasmoids for moving (which doesn't have an icon mind you) closing and refreshing the plasmoids. I am still wondering when KDM will actually be introduced in a nice format. I am saddened that the background chosen were not in the 3.96.00 release.. Hopefully they are out very shortly. Ben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday, 20. November 2007 18:18:43 Ben Kevan wrote:

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I just upgraded to 3.96.00 which I thought would have been the desktop RC1, but it seems as though it's still labeled Beta 4 (Strange today was

That was an oversight upstream, if it says it's 3.96 then it's "RC 1". If you really care about this single string you can reupdate packages from KDE:KDE4.

"Stephan Binner has announced the availability of KDE Four Live 0.7, an openSUSE-based live CD featuring the newly released KDE 4.0 RC1. One interesting point of the announcement is the author's frustration over the quality of KDE 4, expressing strong doubts about the suitability of KDE 4.0 final for production use" http://distrowatch.com/ Originally a version with limited usability was called alpha, if they now call it release candidate that says a lot. Is buggy software good for business ? Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 November 2007 10:33:19 am Filip Brcic wrote:

Дана среда 21 новембар 2007, Philippe Landau је написао(ла):

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Originally a version with limited usability was called alpha, if they now call it release candidate that says a lot. Is buggy software good for business ?

KDE 4.0 is a complete rewrite of the KDE using Qt4 library. It introduces various improvements (go look techbase.kde.org), but it is still untested. I wouldn't be too hasty with tagging KDE4 as buggy software. I'd say that due to the complete rewrite of the API, KDE4 ought to have much less (serious) bugs than KDE<4. What remains to be done is mostly polishing. Plasma desktop and applets are completely new and they are behind the schedule (let's say plasma is at betaX), but most of the other apps work fine right now and could be considered as rc1.

But unfortunatly what we see is Plasma and the Plasmoids giving us the impression of a very unusable work space. I have been running KDE 4 for a while now on a Dev box for many daily tasks and like you said many of the apps are solid.. but what holds them all (Plamsa) is far from even the "Polishing" stage. KNotes isn't ready (doesn't have the "Fancy" look as it did previously due to differences in QT4), Dolphin Folder icons etc (in Oxygen) are not all scalable. KPercentage is unusable due to font coloring and background coloring. KDESU is broken and they have moved the binary so you have to point to it (they should move it or at least add a symlink so that all users can use it). Oxygen themes menu's are "Floating" when the optoin you clicked should get highlighted. Some of those are more then "Polishing" to me. Ben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

El mié, 21-11-2007 a las 19:02 +0100, Philippe Landau escribió:

Stephan Binner wrote:

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On Tuesday, 20. November 2007 18:18:43 Ben Kevan wrote:

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I just upgraded to 3.96.00 which I thought would have been the desktop RC1, but it seems as though it's still labeled Beta 4 (Strange today was

That was an oversight upstream, if it says it's 3.96 then it's "RC 1". If you really care about this single string you can reupdate packages from KDE:KDE4.

"Stephan Binner has announced the availability of KDE Four Live 0.7, an openSUSE-based live CD featuring the newly released KDE 4.0 RC1. One interesting point of the announcement is the author's frustration over the quality of KDE 4, expressing strong doubts about the suitability of KDE 4.0 final for production use" http://distrowatch.com/

Originally a version with limited usability was called alpha, if they now call it release candidate that says a lot. Is buggy software good for business ?

Kind regards Philippe

Sorry to bother, but kde4, even fresh RC1 (I suppose) is unable to run. If within two weeks is the final date to release stable and final 4.0, is a very short time to fix this mess. It's my opinion, anyway. Thanks, AOP. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

El mié, 21-11-2007 a las 21:27 +0100, M9. escribió:

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Hudibras schreef:

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El mié, 21-11-2007 a las 19:02 +0100, Philippe Landau escribió:

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On Tuesday, 20. November 2007 18:18:43 Ben Kevan wrote:

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I just upgraded to 3.96.00 which I thought would have been the desktop RC1, but it seems as though it's still labeled Beta 4 (Strange today was That was an oversight upstream, if it says it's 3.96 then it's "RC 1". If you really care about this single string you can reupdate packages from KDE:KDE4. "Stephan Binner has announced the availability of KDE Four Live 0.7, an openSUSE-based live CD featuring the newly released KDE 4.0 RC1. One interesting point of the announcement is the author's frustration over

Stephan Binner wrote: the quality of KDE 4, expressing strong doubts about the suitability of KDE 4.0 final for production use" http://distrowatch.com/

Originally a version with limited usability was called alpha, if they now call it release candidate that says a lot. Is buggy software good for business ?

Kind regards Philippe

Sorry to bother, but kde4, even fresh RC1 (I suppose) is unable to run. If within two weeks is the final date to release stable and final 4.0, is a very short time to fix this mess.

It's my opinion, anyway.

Thanks, AOP.

What you could try is back-up ~/.kde4 to fi ~/.kde4-backup, and let these files renew themselves.. This is what worked for me few weeks ago.. ;-)

- --

Have a nice day,

Thanks for your answer. Yes, indeed. I've done it so many times I can't recall them all... And nothing. It's always the same story. I've even deleted the whole .kde4 directory. What else? Bye, AOP.

M9. Now, is the only time that exists.

OS: Linux 2.6.22.5-31-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) KDE: 3.5.8 "release 21.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thank you to all the list members, you are so considerate and helpful, a great experience that has become rare online and testifies to many great people cultivating kindness over years. Filip Brcic wrote:

KDE 4.0 is a complete rewrite of the KDE using Qt4 library. It introduces various improvements (go look techbase.kde.org), but it is still untested. I wouldn't be too hasty with tagging KDE4 as buggy software. I'd say that due to the complete rewrite of the API, KDE4 ought to have much less (serious) bugs than KDE<4. Great, thanks to all developers.

Will Stephenson wrote:

On Wednesday 21 November 2007 19:02:51 Philippe Landau wrote:

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"Stephan Binner has announced the availability of KDE Four Live 0.7, an openSUSE-based live CD featuring the newly released KDE 4.0 RC1. One interesting point of the announcement is the author's frustration over the quality of KDE 4, expressing strong doubts about the suitability of KDE 4.0 final for production use" http://distrowatch.com/ Originally a version with limited usability was called alpha, I'll assume you are mixing usability with functionality. ? For me an app is usable when i can use it. If the front end is broken that can be hard for simple users.

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if they now call it release candidate that says a lot. Is buggy software good for business ? <short version> You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Right :-) And serving the omelette raw needs labeling to avoid disappointments :-) Even if it can be healthy as you describe:

<long version> Sure, KDE 4.0 is less functional in some areas than KDE 3.5.8. We (the KDE developers as well as the SUSE KDE team) know it's not possible to port to Qt 4, rework all of the foundations of KDE 3, add new technologies, maintain the features and polish of KDE 3.5.8, and release in a reasonable period. It doesn't work out. Look at the last item in that list. If you fulfil every other item, by the time you release would be irrelevant. There are plenty of Free Software projects you can think of as examples of this, but no names, no pack drill. Right :-)

One of the signs of Free Software's success is that people now accept it on the same terms as any other product. They want it to be great, perfect and better in every way, and in time for Christmas. Unfortunately, it is not the same as other products. A large part of the process is getting people out there using it, finding the bugs and being inspired to actively join projects. In this way we gain the manpower needed to make our software great. Unfortunately, to do this you have to release. We've been putting out alphas and betas for several months now, and they have not attracted the mass uptake required to get KDE 4 over the threshold - despite many of the apps being usable. Will, that's not because it lacks the RC label. That's because it was so hard to use for simple users. I'm just one of many, i look forward to KDE4 with great anticipation since months but as long as reviewers report serious problems i refrain from testing it.

So, a project has to compromise. Some do it by releasing never (see above). Others are equally conservative, but choose to compromise on features and innovation. KDE chooses as a project to accept that KDE 4.0 != KDE 3.5.8 - it's better in many ways, worse in some [very visible] others. Most of us feel that this will see acceptance and create enough momentum to make KDE 4.1 and its successors exceed KDE 3 and establish the basis for the next 10* years of the Free Software desktop. Some don't, but that's ok, KDE is a friendly project and consists of many diverse points of view. Now that is great. Freedom of expression :-) Just the opposite of Ubuntu Canonical's New Age deception where everybody is subjugated to a (facilitated) consensus which imposes the group will (actually the will of the facilitator).

And we're seeing that this strategy works - the volume of downloads of RC1 is several times that of any of the earlier betas and IRC action is up a lot. Great. You see most open source projects i used are very reluctant to fix bugs. Ubuntu for example over years refused to fix a bug where you could not empty the trash when you had write protected items in it. Thunderbird and many others made me give up reporting because they too never fixed important bugs. I understood it as part of a corporate attitude (AOL, Microsoft etc. making more money with buggy and crippled software).

Is the KDE4 desktop also improving rapidly and would you recommend KDE4 RC1 to simple users already ?

The bottom line for the openSUSE user is that you won't be forced into accepting buggy software in the form of KDE 4.0. The next openSUSE release will include a later version, and experience shows that for all the rotten tomatoes 4.0 will get (as well as some praise hopefully) KDE 4 will improve extremely rapidly and the next openSUSE will reflect that. Everyone is welcome to try the packages from KDE:KDE4 in the buildservice and the liveCDs and help us make it great sooner, but if the compromise I described above is unacceptable for you, wait it out, watch and join us at 4.0.x or 4.1.

Oh, and this is my personal opinion, but I think others share it too.

Will

*Actually 11, we started this business on 14 Oct 1996, but 10 flowed better.

Thank you also KDE testers Ben Kevan, Frank Fiene, M9 and Hudibras. Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 22 November 2007 03:53:58 Rajko M. wrote:

The problem with alpha, beta naming is real. People are afraid to install test versions.

You don't "fix" that by calling something "Release Candidate". In the case of 10.3, the Beta releases were imho usable. Most major problems were reported and fixed. Sadly some people started to test only when it was in "Release Candidate" state (note the difference to just calling it that) and expected new reports to get fixed when only blocker fixes were allowed. In the case of KDE 4.0, nobody tested/used it as daily desktop environment (in opposite to runing a single application) during the Beta releases. One observation was that people who participated in the KDE2 or KDE3 beta testing completely missed the KDE4 beta cycle (because it was as desktop environment unusable until recently). Why not just continue to have 2 or 3 months Betas? Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 November 2007 10:31:25 pm Stephan Binner wrote:

On Thursday 22 November 2007 03:53:58 Rajko M. wrote:

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The problem with alpha, beta naming is real. People are afraid to install test versions.

You don't "fix" that by calling something "Release Candidate".

People fears can be fixed, or created with words, that is fact of life. In this particlar case fears are associated to words and uncertainty what they mean. There is no real definition of alpha, beta and RC in openSUSE ie. what developers can and will change in each of stages. It is plain counter productive to test stuff that can break system in Beta stage, and absolutely not good in RC stage. That kind of problems should be solved during Alpha. Having blocker in RC should never happen, unless blocker is consdiered important application (OpenOffice) crash. The effect of blockers in late testing stage we can see now when people don't start massive downloads before GM. Next iteration will be that most of users will wait for remastered media, and after that fails there will be no more users. If somebody think that it will go in different way let me know what observation are used to get to such conslusion. Mine is based on perceived load on servers, users questions and statements in miscellaneous 'suse' related communication media, so not quite accurate.

In the case of 10.3, the Beta releases were imho usable. Most major problems were reported and fixed. Sadly some people started to test only when it was in "Release Candidate" state (note the difference to just calling it that) and expected new reports to get fixed when only blocker fixes were allowed.

Sincerely I had lesser problems with Alphas than later. When RC allows only blocker fixes, instead of polishing product, then development process seems to be upside down.

In the case of KDE 4.0, nobody tested/used it as daily desktop environment (in opposite to runing a single application) during the Beta releases. One observation was that people who participated in the KDE2 or KDE3 beta testing completely missed the KDE4 beta cycle (because it was as desktop environment unusable until recently). Why not just continue to have 2 or 3 months Betas?

Unusable desktop is a problem, but problem is also calling KDE4 RC and than later explaining that base technology and desktop are not at the same development level. For me and proably another 99% of users KDE and KDE4 is a single item. I can't use base technology without desktop, and explanation helps me to stop complaining, but still whole is not in better shape than worse of 2. One major problem for me as a user is that I know about KDE very little comparing to X, kernel and some other stuff. It was just working all the time and now when I have trouble even to start KDE4 session, I'm in the middle of nowhere. Looking on KDE4 site I can't find instructions how it starts and how components interact, and I can't experiment on component level. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org