[opensuse] A feedback on quality of 15.2 after update on a long standing productive system (15.0 - 15.1 now 15.2)
If you are using Kontact and Kmail with Akonadi: my sincere advice is to avoid absolutely to upgrade. I my personal experience this system is of low quality, I discover every day bugs that are causing data loss and the whole PIM suite is substantially unusable. As I am writing you I have to wait for the overloaded computer to respond, the last 5 crashes within the last 30 minutes have left already their traces. I hope I will finish this letter without. Indexes are indexing forever, calendar data cannot be read. If Korganizer directory is change of place: total data loss. The situation gets even worse when Firefox uses e.g. a database using rss plugin. But it crashes also without. As for me PIM function is important and these bugs also cause total overheat of the machine and emergency shutdown in some cases, I am meditating to go back to 15.1 in the hope to sit it out until a working version in 8 month or maybe to hop from 15.1 to 15.3 when it will be available. If you work little with akonadi and your data is small and insignificant, you may not experience all these problems. But if you base yourself on a safe and reliable KDE PIM and a working system, you may consider, especially if you are on an "older system" that has been updated in the past, NOT to do the upgrade. YMMV, this is just a warning to make a good backup (which I fortunately have) and to have a lot(!) of patience, as, in my opinion, the quality of this upgrade is insufficient to get your work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 10:28 AM Stakanov <stakanov@disroot.org> wrote:
... As for me PIM function is important and these bugs also cause total overheat of the machine and emergency shutdown in some cases, I am meditating to go back to 15.1 in the hope to sit it out until a working version in 8 month or maybe to hop from 15.1 to 15.3 when it will be available.
I feel for you bro ;p. I know this game in the software industry. Seriously, the past OpenSuse releases always argued and snapped back at the complaining users and bug reporters that they'd only support like direct upgrades from previous suse release to the current, and nothing else. But here in the real world, does a system really only begin its life-cycle on the previous release. And what about the release before? Where did that system actually come from? If I am not totally making things up right now, there were plenty of bug reports that were showing a clean freshly set-up suse release N would not zypper distribupgrade to the release N+1 when it was supposed to. Can't even imagine your troubles when coming from N-1 to N then to N+1 and longer upgrade paths. I have been in deep waters myself a lot of times :(( What I was always lacking to comprehend was that people claimed to simply delete everything but the /home/ partition and start with a fresh OS, how crazy. Mebby Im just too unworthy and not fluent enough in Linucks to make any sense of this approach, and of course I know way too little, this least I know, to master these situations. I always try to learn. At least I pretend so. And I write these posts onto lists and bicker and fuss about. Then again, maybe the software industry always tries to invent endless new features or fix stuff that aint broken just yet. The truth is possibly a mixture in between. Maybe users are left alone in these pretty normal situations such as package upgrades, updates, architectural changes etc, and stuff is not tested thoroughly enough and not given careful consideration of what to do with a users system and what not to. Obviously these are not life and death situations I suppose and I hope, and the world doesn't end from us having problems with a new OpenSuse release, by far. I remember projects such as let's create Linux without /etc/ or without /var/ or even no /usr/ any more or whatever they were and still are and what all those attempts or maybe still ongoing projects are, dont take my word literally but you know all those places and permanent construction sites in all these operating systems and giant software projects. Not even speaking about systemd, wicked and other funny things :) So I do wonder how are the expert creators of Suse or Linux or other knowledgeable people never suffer from the same problems as the average or unworthy user (=me) out here from the bugs and shortcomings people report everywhere all the time? How do they do it and live a happy life without data loss, without need to re configure and re install a lot of their previously normally behaving environments and software tools, et c ? How is not everybody and their brothers not wasting plentiful time with all or any of this. Apparently it's just always "me" or a few out there, but never the people inventing, programming and creating the stuff themselves. Is nobody dogfooding? Or actually using the vanilla procuts, distributions and stuff off the shelf they are providing to everyone else? Wondering. The truth is probably, that they are way more knowledgeable than me, at least. Apparently you are not that knowledgeable that much either..... ;) Otherwise this product wouldn't be declared finished and gold and released and let loose upon the public. But then again, no software creation is ever really much finished and would never be really released after all. But I agree, I have too often experienced real havoc myself too with upgrades, and not just some high level applications on some desktop, but with very basic things. Good luck and keeping fingers crossed to sort out your problems. Don't give up! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 16/07/2020 à 11:57, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 16/07/2020 11.47, cagsm wrote:
What I was always lacking to comprehend was that people claimed to simply delete everything but the/home/ partition and start with a fresh OS, how crazy.
That is trivial to do :-D
yep. There are many reason to do so *when possible* * don't miss useful change :-) * start with a clean install, after installing and removing tons of softs in the mean time * test the new install before going to production level... but!! on some installs, IE servers for example, it's not really possible. but :-) other systems (W or M) are also prone for update problems keeping the same old kernel for several years (see uptime!!) on a server is pretty thrilling :-( so keep cool until you get some free time before updating, and be confident than openSUSE is not the worst in this respect! jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
In data giovedì 16 luglio 2020 12:03:36 CEST, jdd@dodin.org ha scritto:
Le 16/07/2020 à 11:57, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 16/07/2020 11.47, cagsm wrote:
What I was always lacking to comprehend was that people claimed to simply delete everything but the/home/ partition and start with a fresh OS, how crazy.
That is trivial to do :-D
yep. There are many reason to do so *when possible*
* don't miss useful change :-) * start with a clean install, after installing and removing tons of softs in the mean time * test the new install before going to production level...
but!!
on some installs, IE servers for example, it's not really possible.
but :-)
other systems (W or M) are also prone for update problems
keeping the same old kernel for several years (see uptime!!) on a server is pretty thrilling :-(
so keep cool until you get some free time before updating, and be confident than openSUSE is not the worst in this respect!
jdd
To be clear: this is not a rant about opensuse or KDE PIM. I could rant, but this would have no value. Users read if others have problems. They may feel that is important or not. If somebody using for all evolution, Gnome or Thunderbird with KDE or whatever, he may not have any problems. I was quite satisfied with 15.0 although some long standing bugs that were tedious. But manageable, overall. 15.1 at the beginning was somewhat rough, but bearable. Now, this is the first time since the famous disaster of KDE4.0 that I am really loosing data, cannot work anymore. I have opened a bug report on the issues, I cannot complain the assistance is good, I am trying to resist to be able to contribute. So I cannot claim anybody told me "just erase everything but the home partition". But I can go here and publish my current(!) experience, in order to warn less solid users, that are not able to hop around, go back and forth, maybe are even lazy on backups (not so rare after all) and make sure they know that this time, in some occasions (as i told you, my father 93 years old has a PC but uses PIM little, so has small amount of data and does not use organizer. The problem may be there but I did not notice because the issue does not arise. But if people know they do rely on PIM work with KDE and are now quite comfortable with the quality of 15.1, why let them run into an open knife. I would advice to wait 6 to 8 month before update and only if the issues get fixed. Apparently there has been some shortcoming or incident that avoided at least one fix to be included causing one of the bugs. Another bug appearing in the multiple crashes should purportedly be fixed but obviously isn't, so the fact that I am running into it is unpleasant but positive, as this feedback will help to check regressions and incidents. But when I am comparing the last two upgrades, this one, although in theory a real advantage, turn, with me(!) in my situation(!) to be one, not for the faint of heart. So please do not misinterpret this as a discomfort with openSUSE as a whole, but with the current 15.2 that stresses me (I am getting annoyed when something gets difficult, I am getting stressed when major data loss occurs, when programs crash continuously and get unusable. But this is NOT meant as a lack of confidence in the people working for openSUSE or in the distribution as a whole. There is a reason why I am using it since now version 6.0 (and at the time THAT was real horror to learn when coming from NT, believe me, you would open champaign when you just made the install and have it running. Today it is a very modern system, but the state of PIM did surprise me negatively. Which induced the warning. As I said: not working with akonadi: I am quite sure you will not have complain. Having a new install from zero? Also quite confident that all will be gorgeously fine. But if you use KDE with PIM watch out for heavy weather. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, 16 July 2020 19:27:12 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 16/07/2020 11.47, cagsm wrote:
What I was always lacking to comprehend was that people claimed to simply delete everything but the/home/ partition and start with a fresh OS, how crazy.
That is trivial to do :-D
Assuming, of course, that one had the foresight to create /home as a separate partition... -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rodney, et al -- ...and then Rodney Baker said... % % On Thursday, 16 July 2020 19:27:12 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote: % > On 16/07/2020 11.47, cagsm wrote: % > > simply delete everything but the/home/ partition and start with a ... % > % > That is trivial to do :-D % % Assuming, of course, that one had the foresight to create /home as a separate % partition... ... or can boot from a thumb drive and /bin/rm [A-Z0-9a-gj-z]* .??* in the mounted dir ... :-) % -- % ============================================================== % Rodney Baker VK5ZTV HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/07/2020 19.56, David T-G wrote:
Rodney, et al --
...and then Rodney Baker said... % % On Thursday, 16 July 2020 19:27:12 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote: % > On 16/07/2020 11.47, cagsm wrote: % > > simply delete everything but the/home/ partition and start with a ... % > % > That is trivial to do :-D % % Assuming, of course, that one had the foresight to create /home as a separate % partition...
... or can boot from a thumb drive and
/bin/rm [A-Z0-9a-gj-z]* .??*
in the mounted dir ... :-)
Yes, but that breaks a feature of the install software: it reads some files from the previous system, like fstab or /etc/passwd. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 16/07/2020 10.27, Stakanov wrote: ...
As for me PIM function is important and these bugs also cause total overheat of the machine and emergency shutdown in some cases, I am meditating to go back to 15.1 in the hope to sit it out until a working version in 8 month or maybe to hop from 15.1 to 15.3 when it will be available.
About the overheat: this is a problem with the design of your hardware. The machine should be able to run at full load continuously without panicking. It should have sufficient cooling hardware for it. However, if the machine is not designed to dissipate that heat (it can be a design decision), then the machine must throttle down automatically, to reduce heat production. My little fan-less home server does just that. When it overheats, the CPU throttles down to compensate and keeps running. Slower, but it runs. Now, I do not know if this *should* to be done by the kernel or by the hardware. But I know that the system can do it. By default, I do not know for certain. I think some boards have settings for this in the BIOS. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 16/07/2020 10.27, Stakanov wrote:
...
As for me PIM function is important and these bugs also cause total overheat of the machine and emergency shutdown in some cases, I am meditating to go back to 15.1 in the hope to sit it out until a working version in 8 month or maybe to hop from 15.1 to 15.3 when it will be available.
About the overheat: this is a problem with the design of your hardware.
The machine should be able to run at full load continuously without panicking. It should have sufficient cooling hardware for it.
However, if the machine is not designed to dissipate that heat (it can be a design decision), then the machine must throttle down automatically, to reduce heat production.
My little fan-less home server does just that. When it overheats, the CPU throttles down to compensate and keeps running. Slower, but it runs.
Now, I do not know if this *should* to be done by the kernel or by the hardware. But I know that the system can do it. By default, I do not know for certain.
I think some boards have settings for this in the BIOS. The X201 had always a bit of faint ventilation. I changed over the year 9 times the ventilator, fortunately I am able to unmount every piece of this machine. But this happens here because the thread treated by one CPU does substantially block the whole CPU, you get a load of 106% (which indicates
In data giovedì 16 luglio 2020 12:42:50 CEST, Carlos E. R. ha scritto: that substantially it hangs) and this zombi or blocked process does then overload the machine. I am even using a gamers pad with 30" Ventilator always between my legs and the machine. So if it shuts down something went seriously wrong. With KDE/PIM I had these overheats with the very first version of akonadi years ago. So it surprises me that we are "back to business". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 7/16/20 4:27 AM, Stakanov wrote:
YMMV, this is just a warning to make a good backup (which I fortunately have) and to have a lot(!) of patience, as, in my opinion, the quality of this upgrade is insufficient to get your work done.
FWIW, I use Google GMail, Contacts, Calendar, Tasks, etc. One nice thing is everything is available on my computers, tablet and phone. As long as I have a browser available, I can access that stuff from anywhere, including Windows. I even have the Thunderbird and Seamonkey calendars linked to my Google calendar. Perhaps Kontact's day has passed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
In data giovedì 16 luglio 2020 15:00:15 CEST, James Knott ha scritto:
On 7/16/20 4:27 AM, Stakanov wrote:
YMMV, this is just a warning to make a good backup (which I fortunately have) and to have a lot(!) of patience, as, in my opinion, the quality of this upgrade is insufficient to get your work done.
FWIW, I use Google GMail, Contacts, Calendar, Tasks, etc. One nice thing is everything is available on my computers, tablet and phone. As long as I have a browser available, I can access that stuff from anywhere, including Windows. I even have the Thunderbird and Seamonkey calendars linked to my Google calendar. Perhaps Kontact's day has passed.
I really hope not, as I am not trusting in any way Google or Facebook or Twitter. If I want advertisers to read my private e-mail, I may consider, but I really do not know why Google should know were I go or who I meat. Maybe the days of Google have passed? There is no reason to use "cloud" over the ocean, especially with the times we are all living. YMMV. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 7/16/20 9:08 AM, Stakanov wrote:
If I want advertisers to read my private e-mail, I may consider, but I really do not know why Google should know were I go or who I meat. Maybe the days of Google have passed?
I pay $10 U.S. /year for GSuite, which doesn't have that stuff the way the free GMail does. It also provides my DNS server. Also, I wouldn't bet on a lot of privacy for any email, short of end to end encryption. I'm really not worried, if someone reads my grocery list in Tasks. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-07-16 15:08, Stakanov wrote:
In data giovedì 16 luglio 2020 15:00:15 CEST, James Knott ha scritto:
YMMV, this is just a warning to make a good backup (which I fortunately have) and to have a lot(!) of patience, as, in my opinion, the quality of this upgrade is insufficient to get your work done. FWIW, I use Google GMail, Contacts, Calendar, Tasks, etc. One nice
On 7/16/20 4:27 AM, Stakanov wrote: thing is everything is available on my computers, tablet and phone. As long as I have a browser available, I can access that stuff from anywhere, including Windows. I even have the Thunderbird and Seamonkey calendars linked to my Google calendar. Perhaps Kontact's day has passed. I really hope not, as I am not trusting in any way Google or Facebook or Twitter. If I want advertisers to read my private e-mail, I may consider, but I really do not know why Google should know were I go or who I meat. Maybe the days of Google have passed? There is no reason to use "cloud" over the ocean, especially with the times we are all living. YMMV.
I concur, we Europeans value our privacy and a surveillance state like the USA is not trusted by default. Luckily the European High Court has overturned the Privacy Shield. Now hoping that EU leaders this time have the balls to say no to our "trusted" friend. This is also the reason I do not use social media, because of all the illegal use of personal data. And, yes, my grocery list is a source where bad people can deduct some of my habits and/or view upon live. --- Frans. -- A: Yes, just like that A: Ja, net zo Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt Q: Why is top-posting annoying? Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
cagsm -
Carlos E. R. -
David T-G -
Frans de Boer -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Rodney Baker -
Stakanov