Live USB stick and partitioner
Hello - I keep encountering a problem that has occurred on all the 15.* version of OpenSuSE Live USB sticks, which I think may actually be a bug, but perhaps there is a workaround or a solution that I cannot find by Google. When I run a Live version of OpenSuSE I often want to use the YaST2 partitioner to mount partitions from an installed version of OpenSuSE that is on my hard drives. (I usually am trying to fix a problem that is preventing the disk installation from booting up) Trouble is, the YaST version of the partitioner (on the Live USB stick) complains that there is nothing mounted for the root directory "/" I don't grok this at all because the Live version does have something "mounted" for "/" but whatever is mounted does not show up in the YaST partitioner. Nor does fdisk - l show anything mounted for "/". I have tried mounting some other partition, including the root dir/partition for the disk installation of OpenSuSE, to satisfy this requirement but then I get into trouble because the live version thinks there are two mount points for "/" and often crashes. So my question is, how do I mount partitions from my disk drives when I am using a Live version of OpenSuSE? How do I handle the requirement that the YaST partitioner wants for mounting something as "/"? Thanks in advances for your time and help, Marc -- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
So my question is, how do I mount partitions from my disk drives when I am using a Live version of OpenSuSE?
From the command line, as root:
mount partition mountpoint But I'm sure there must be more to your question ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
by Google. When I run a Live version of OpenSuSE I often want to use the YaST2 partitioner to mount partitions from an installed version of
here there is already a problem; Yast partitionner is aimed at *partition management*, not mounting )
complains that there is nothing mounted for the root directory "/" I
you fail to understand than the usb stick is it's own full openSUSE install, with it's own root :-) so *your* install is an external install
So my question is, how do I mount partitions from my disk drives when I am using a Live version of OpenSuSE?
do *not* use the yast partitonner. If you wants only to mount the partitions to copy files, chances are you can simply use Dolphin to mount them (seen in the left column as various disks). If you want to work on your previous install as root, better run the "rescue" system (full CLI), but you can as well open an xterm or Ctrl Alt Fx, and do what I explain here (both in french and english) http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AccesRootAvecOpensuseRescue jdd -- http://dodin.org http://valeriedodin.com
W dniu 14.03.2022 o 19:02, jdd@dodin.org pisze:
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
by Google. When I run a Live version of OpenSuSE I often want to use the YaST2 partitioner to mount partitions from an installed version of
here there is already a problem; Yast partitionner is aimed at *partition management*, not mounting )
complains that there is nothing mounted for the root directory "/" I
you fail to understand than the usb stick is it's own full openSUSE install, with it's own root :-)
so *your* install is an external install
So my question is, how do I mount partitions from my disk drives when I am using a Live version of OpenSuSE?
do *not* use the yast partitonner.
If you wants only to mount the partitions to copy files, chances are you can simply use Dolphin to mount them (seen in the left column as various disks).
If you want to work on your previous install as root, better run the "rescue" system (full CLI), but you can as well open an xterm or Ctrl Alt Fx, and do what I explain here (both in french and english)
http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AccesRootAvecOpensuseRescue
jdd
1) I agree that YaST Partitioner is not a tool for mounting things. 2) The issue described is on it's own very valid. I once tried to use openSUSE "Rescue LiveCD" with hopes of using YaST Partitioner. I got the same result and ended up using gparted. LiveCD is using some esoteric way of mounting root, so that "findmnt" is not showing any block device behind "/".
On 2022-03-14 20:55, Adam Mizerski wrote:
W dniu 14.03.2022 o 19:02, jdd@dodin.org pisze:
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
...
1) I agree that YaST Partitioner is not a tool for mounting things.
2) The issue described is on it's own very valid. I once tried to use openSUSE "Rescue LiveCD" with hopes of using YaST Partitioner. I got the same result and ended up using gparted. LiveCD is using some esoteric way of mounting root, so that "findmnt" is not showing any block device behind "/".
I don't remember using YaST partitioner on the "Rescue LiveCD" (I very much recommend this image, using XFCE), but I have used gparted a lot. Thus I don't really understand what is the problem with the YaST partitioner :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2022-03-14 20:55, Adam Mizerski wrote:
W dniu 14.03.2022 o 19:02, jdd@dodin.org pisze:
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
...
1) I agree that YaST Partitioner is not a tool for mounting things.
2) The issue described is on it's own very valid. I once tried to use openSUSE "Rescue LiveCD" with hopes of using YaST Partitioner. I got the same result and ended up using gparted. LiveCD is using some esoteric way of mounting root, so that "findmnt" is not showing any block device behind "/".
I don't remember using YaST partitioner on the "Rescue LiveCD" (I very much recommend this image, using XFCE), but I have used gparted a lot. Thus I don't really understand what is the problem with the YaST partitioner :-? Carlos, the problem with the YaST partitioner on a LiveCD or LiveUSB stick is that it does not recognize that there is a "/" root directory
On 3/14/22 13:18, Carlos E. R. wrote: that has been "inherently" designed/built in for the live version. The live versions of OpenSuSE seem to be doing something odd or different with "/" and there is no partition actually associated/mounted for "/". So when you use the YaST partitioner to create, add, or remove partitions and their mount points, it also insists that you define a mount point and a partition for "/". To a Live version of OpenSuSE, if you do define something for "/" in order to satisfy this requirement of the YaST partitioner, then the live OS thinks there are two different definitions for "/" (which in fact there are) and it gets really confused and often that leads to a crash. HTHs Marc...
-- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
On 2022-03-14 23:43, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 2022-03-14 20:55, Adam Mizerski wrote:
W dniu 14.03.2022 o 19:02, jdd@dodin.org pisze:
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
...
1) I agree that YaST Partitioner is not a tool for mounting things.
2) The issue described is on it's own very valid. I once tried to use openSUSE "Rescue LiveCD" with hopes of using YaST Partitioner. I got the same result and ended up using gparted. LiveCD is using some esoteric way of mounting root, so that "findmnt" is not showing any block device behind "/".
I don't remember using YaST partitioner on the "Rescue LiveCD" (I very much recommend this image, using XFCE), but I have used gparted a lot. Thus I don't really understand what is the problem with the YaST partitioner :-? Carlos, the problem with the YaST partitioner on a LiveCD or LiveUSB stick is that it does not recognize that there is a "/" root directory
On 3/14/22 13:18, Carlos E. R. wrote: that has been "inherently" designed/built in for the live version. The live versions of OpenSuSE seem to be doing something odd or different with "/" and there is no partition actually associated/mounted for "/". So when you use the YaST partitioner to create, add, or remove partitions and their mount points, it also insists that you define a mount point and a partition for "/". To a Live version of OpenSuSE, if you do define something for "/" in order to satisfy this requirement of the YaST partitioner, then the live OS thinks there are two different definitions for "/" (which in fact there are) and it gets really confused and often that leads to a crash.
Yes, the live root is indeed different. It is composed of two actual partitions, one read-only, and another r/w. I haven't looked at it in more detail. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
by Google. When I run a Live version of OpenSuSE I often want to use the YaST2 partitioner to mount partitions from an installed version of
here there is already a problem; Yast partitionner is aimed at *partition management*, not mounting ) Please explain this further, I do not understand why mounting is not a
complains that there is nothing mounted for the root directory "/" I
you fail to understand than the usb stick is it's own full openSUSE install, with it's own root :-)
so *your* install is an external install No, I completely understand this distinction. I know I am, and indeed want to, customize my live USB stick to work with a particular installation of OpenSuSE that is installed on my disk drives. In
Hello JDD, Thank you for responding to my queries, like you did I will intersperse my response/question below with your comments - On 3/14/22 11:02, jdd@dodin.org wrote: part of "partition management". The YaST partitioner, as well as the fstab file is clearly designed to make a connection between partitions and where they are mounted. The YaST partitioner also makes it easy to visualize the connections and handles the underlying gory details of identifiers (can you remember all the characters used in a UUID to identify a partitions? I can't, and using the YaST partitioner makes this task so much easier. Yes, I do understand there are other aspects of partition management, such as resizing or moving partitions, but I don't understand why you are wanting to separate mounting from partition management. To me, that seems like an arbitrary decision and a strange model of what a partitioner is. Also, I WANT to set up my live USB stick with what and where I want to mount partitions from my externally installed OpenSuSE system. In other words I want the fstab file on my live USB stick to be set up correctly for the next time I want to use it with that particular external system. How is this any different from the normal usage of the YaST partitioner? particular, the next time I want to use the live USB stick, I want it to boot up with the external partitions already mounted where I configured them to be mounted in the live environment. In other words, I WANT the YaST partitioner running under the live OS to modify (customize) its own version of fstab. And I don't want to have to modify that fstab file by hand either when there is a tool like the YaST partitioner that can make the job of setting up fstab so much easier. Once customized, I don't plan to use that particular USB stick with any other system. I am going to turn your comment around, it is not I who misunderstands that I am using a "live" version, AFAIK it is the YaST partitioner that is failing to understand that it is working in a "live" environment and that the root "/" dir does exist but it is something special and different from a normal "/" mount point and partition.
So my question is, how do I mount partitions from my disk drives when I am using a Live version of OpenSuSE?
do *not* use the yast partitonner.
If I am not suppose to use the YaST partitioner in a live USB environment, then why is it included and enabled to be used on a live USB stick? At the very least the YaST partitioner should state very clearly that it should not be used (which would be a very distasteful decision by the OpenSuSE developers) in a live version of OpenSuSE. Either way this is still a bug that should be fixed I think.... There is nothing that indicates, to me, that I shouldn't use the YaST partitioner in a live version of OpenSuSE.
If you wants only to mount the partitions to copy files, chances are you can simply use Dolphin to mount them (seen in the left column as various disks).
Hmm I hadn't thought about using Dolphin to mount file systems, but I suspect that is not going to be a persistent solution, but I could be wrong and will play around with it. But to your other point, no I simply do not want to copy files, more likely I want to access files on the external OpenSuSE system, edit them, add/delete, use them in Beyond Compare, etc., and even execute them perhaps.
If you want to work on your previous install as root, better run the "rescue" system (full CLI), but you can as well open an xterm or Ctrl Alt Fx, and do what I explain here (both in french and english)
I tried the "rescue" system and found it very limited at doing things that I want to be able to do. For example there is no way I could figure out to install and run the Emacs editor which I use 99% of the time. Nor could I run the ncurses version of YaST... The list goes on, at least with a live version of OpenSuSE I have access to (or can get access to) the tools I am familiar with.
http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AccesRootAvecOpensuseRescue
You have some good ideas in this document, and yes that provides a partial solution to the mount issues, but as I said, the rescue system seems very limited and difficult to use for accomplishing some of the tasks or solving some of the problems I encounter.
jdd
HTHs, Marc... -- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
On 2022-03-14 23:24, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Hello JDD, Thank you for responding to my queries, like you did I will intersperse my response/question below with your comments -
Le 14/03/2022 à 18:23, Marc Chamberlin a écrit :
by Google. When I run a Live version of OpenSuSE I often want to use the YaST2 partitioner to mount partitions from an installed version of
here there is already a problem; Yast partitionner is aimed at *partition management*, not mounting ) Please explain this further, I do not understand why mounting is not a
On 3/14/22 11:02, jdd@dodin.org wrote: part of "partition management". The YaST partitioner, as well as the fstab file is clearly designed to make a connection between partitions and where they are mounted. The YaST partitioner also makes it easy to visualize the connections and handles the underlying gory details of identifiers (can you remember all the characters used in a UUID to identify a partitions? I can't, and using the YaST partitioner makes this task so much easier.
Yes, I do understand there are other aspects of partition management, such as resizing or moving partitions, but I don't understand why you are wanting to separate mounting from partition management. To me, that seems like an arbitrary decision and a strange model of what a partitioner is.
To me, yast partition manager is just designed for creation/deletion/modification of partitionings, formatting them, and writing a line to fstab. That's all. NOT mounting partitions. The same goes for other partition managers such as gparted.
Also, I WANT to set up my live USB stick with what and where I want to mount partitions from my externally installed OpenSuSE system. In other words I want the fstab file on my live USB stick to be set up correctly for the next time I want to use it with that particular external system. How is this any different from the normal usage of the YaST partitioner?
Because the live itself is a strange system, not a normal system. And it is not designed to handle it. ...
do *not* use the yast partitonner. If I am not suppose to use the YaST partitioner in a live USB environment, then why is it included and enabled to be used on a live USB stick? At the very least the YaST partitioner should state very clearly that it should not be used (which would be a very distasteful decision by the OpenSuSE developers) in a live version of OpenSuSE. Either way this is still a bug that should be fixed I think.... There is nothing that indicates, to me, that I shouldn't use the YaST partitioner in a live version of OpenSuSE.
The people that created the live are not the same people that created yast ;-) Actually, in the rescue live I would like the yast partitioner not to touch the live at all and work on the disk being rescued instead.
If you wants only to mount the partitions to copy files, chances are you can simply use Dolphin to mount them (seen in the left column as various disks). Hmm I hadn't thought about using Dolphin to mount file systems, but I suspect that is not going to be a persistent solution, but I could be wrong and will play around with it. But to your other point, no I simply do not want to copy files, more likely I want to access files on the external OpenSuSE system, edit them, add/delete, use them in Beyond Compare, etc., and even execute them perhaps.
No, Dolphin doings are not persistent. ... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Yes, I do understand there are other aspects of partition management, such as resizing or moving partitions, but I don't understand why you are wanting to separate mounting from partition management. To me, that seems like an arbitrary decision and a strange model of what a partitioner is. Mounting is something done with filesystems, not partitions, though their names are routinely used coincidently. Partitions without filesystems cannot be mounted. Filesystems need not take up entire partitions, as we have LVM that adds and
Marc Chamberlin composed on 2022-03-14 15:24 (UTC-0700): divides in multiple ways, and RAID that combines. And then there's BTRFS, which does all the above, and more. Partitioning (and filesystem formatting) on my disks is something done before any installer is started, and never changed during installation. The openSUSE/YaST partitioner is used here only for designating which filesystems are to be mounted where. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 3/14/22 15:59, Felix Miata wrote:
Marc Chamberlin composed on 2022-03-14 15:24 (UTC-0700):
Yes, I do understand there are other aspects of partition management, such as resizing or moving partitions, but I don't understand why you are wanting to separate mounting from partition management. To me, that seems like an arbitrary decision and a strange model of what a partitioner is. Mounting is something done with filesystems, not partitions, though their names are routinely used coincidently. Partitions without filesystems cannot be mounted. Filesystems need not take up entire partitions, as we have LVM that adds and divides in multiple ways, and RAID that combines. And then there's BTRFS, which does all the above, and more.
*"Partitioning (and filesystem formatting) on my disks is something done before any installer is started, and never changed during installation. The openSUSE/YaST partitioner is used here only for designating which filesystems are to be mounted where.*"
Felix - Thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Your last paragraph captures yet a different nuance about the purpose of the YaST partitioner. You and I both view it as a tool for defining what filesystems are mounted where. But whereas you seem to be saying that you don't use it to define partitions and for setting them up, others seem to be saying that is the main purpose that the YaST partitioner and only what it should be used for. I view it as doing both (and more) and use it to do both (and more). So my takeaway is that in your eyes you also seem to have yet another different view of the Yast partitioner, from the way others are viewing it. I probably have not expressed myself very succinctly or clearly in my previous postings. Trying to convey ones thoughts in a way that won't cause confusion is always very difficult. Clearly the openSuSE/YaST partitioner is doing multiple tasks, but I really did not want to get into the weeds over semantics. Besides defining and creating partitions, another task that the YaST partitioner is doing is creating lines in fstab. Whether one is editing fstab by hand or is using the YaST partitioner, the result is the same. The user is also defining a relationship between file system mount points and partitions. I don't know of any other tool that defines these relationships or edits and add such definitions to fstab. If there is a separate tool that should be used to define and persist these relationships, please point it out to me. OpenSuSE certainly does not make it easy to find any other such tool that should be used for defining the connections between partitions and mount points! There has been mention of a tool called gparted (which is not supplied as a standard tool nor supplied by default in a fresh OpenSuSE installation. I am not familiar with it since it is not a part of the YaST tool set nor easily discoverable.) but AFAIK it does not edit fstab nor define connections between partitions and mount points either. When I tell the YaST partitioner to commit the changes, that I have made while using it, I also clearly see that the function to actually mount all the defined partitions at their mount points is carried out, before the YaST partitioner terminates. (I suspect by making a call to "mount -all") To my "user" eyes this is also clearly one of the YaST partitioner purposes also, and I don't know how to stop it from doing so. So the YaST partitioner is clearly doing several things, defining partitions, defining the binding between partitions and their mount points, persisting this relationship between partitions and mount points, and actually having the mounts committed and done. To my user oriented eye, that is the model of the YaST partitioner I was referring to in my earlier postings. The YaST partitioner may be misnamed because it in fact IS doing much more than just partitioning "tasks". I have gotten a lot of push-back on this with folks seeming to be saying that the main purpose of the YaST partitioner is just do partitioning tasks and should be used only for that purpose, i.e. to set up and define or redefine partitions, and I strongly disagree! Especially since I don't have or know of any good alternative tool(s) to use! It is also DEFINING the binding of partitions to file system mount points, persisting those relationships, and actually committing (by mounting) those partitions at their mount points. A significant portion of the YaST partitioner's GUI is also defined so as to carry out ALL of these tasks. If the scope of the YaST partitioner's purpose should be limited to just doing partition management (like gparted appears to be) then it is overstepping it's authority because it is actually doing much more. I know this may appear to be nit-picking but clear communication is a two way street and I should not be faulted for thinking that the model behind the YaST partitioner is to do all of these tasks, and therefore it's purpose is to be more than being just a partitioner, because performing all these other tasks IS exactly what the YaST "partitioner" is in fact doing! This underlines the fallacy of the argument to just use the YaST partitioner for partitioning only, (like gparted). If so then what tool should I be using to define and persist the relationship between partitions and mount points? I know that the mount command can define the relationship between a partition and a mount point (not always easily) and mount it, but I scanned the man pages for mount, and found no way to persist newly defined relationships back into the fstab file via the mount command. Therefore my complaint and request for help stands, as a user, I would expect to be able to continue to use the YaST partitioner in a Live OpenSuSE environment in the same way as I use it in an installed disk-based system. Or I need some other tool to easily define and persist the relationship between partitions and mount points. In other words I expect to be able to use it, to EASILY make and persist these same bindings in a live environment. (hand editing fstab is NOT an easy solution and requires a lot of low level detailed knowledge) And I can't, with the YaST partitioner, because of the YaST partitioner's inability to understand the existence of the "/" directory in the live environment. To my eyes, that is inconsistent and therefore a bug that should be addressed and fixed. Someone mentioned that he wanted the Yast partitioner, in a live environment, to only affect a target disk based system. I disagree, but do agree that should be an option. I am exploring some of the alternatives suggested and have not yet reached a conclusion about those other approaches yet. I did find out that one proposed possible solutions, using dolphin, did not meet one of the requirements that I want, in a live environment, that is dolphin's lack of persistence. There may be other tools or parameters that I am not aware of yet, that I need, in regards to using some of the other workarounds, that will make them either a non-starter or a viable solution, and I will let you know. ----- There seems to be some confusion, in this thread, between the "rescue" environment and a "live" environment also. To me, a "rescue" environment is referring to the system that is started by using the menu item found on the installation DVD or USB sticks (2nd menu page) for booting the system up in rescue mode. That is a very limited form of the full "live" version that I downloaded from the openSuSE downloads website. The available tool set of the "rescue" environment is quite limited and unacceptable, not to mention that it too lacks persistence, and doesn't appear to be expandable either by downloading and installing new packages that I need for solving the problems I have been trying to solve in getting OpenSuSE 15.2 upgraded to OpenSuSE 15.3. Carlos mentioned there is something called a "Rescue LiveCD" which I haven't found/tried yet for SuSE15.3, and perhaps that is causing some of the confusion? I remember a while back one could download something called a Rescue LiveCD but I haven't seen that in ages, and there is no mention of an ISO with that name here - https://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.3/live/ The out of the box upgrade, from 15.2 to 15.3 failed on me, it simply hangs in a black screen and the log files did not provide a clue or error message saying why. So I am trying to figure out why, and I'm using an OpenSuSE 15.3 live USB stick which should prove to be very helpful if I can get it to work. And that is what caused me to initiate this discussion. I want to be able to instrument some of the startup scripts, on the disk based system, so that I can better understand what is happening when I try to boot up my upgraded OpenSuSE 15.3 system and find where and how it is failing. (No, log files have not been helpful either, which is why I want to do some more instrumentation.) I plan to do this iteratively which is why I want persistence in setting up the Live USB stick. Therefore I want to be able to mount partitions from my disk based system into my live OpenSuSE 15.3 system on a USB stick. I don't want to have to learn new tools, such as gparted, unless I absolutely have to, and I really don't want to have to understand all the nitty gritty details about partitions, mount processes etc., I got enough things on my plate to learn about! Which is why I want to use the YaST2 partitioner, it makes it easy to define and use mount points without having to understand a lot of underlying details and commands. Again thanks for your time (in reading this rather long post) and help, Marc... -- --... ...-- .----. ... -.. . .-- .- --... .--. -..- .-- -- .- .-. -.-. <b>Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc.<br> His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications.<br> To boldly go where no Marc has gone before!<br></b>
On 15/03/2022 20.18, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 3/14/22 15:59, Felix Miata wrote:
Marc Chamberlin composed on 2022-03-14 15:24 (UTC-0700):
Yes, I do understand there are other aspects of partition management, such as resizing or moving partitions, but I don't understand why you are wanting to separate mounting from partition management. To me, that seems like an arbitrary decision and a strange model of what a partitioner is. Mounting is something done with filesystems, not partitions, though their names are routinely used coincidently. Partitions without filesystems cannot be mounted. Filesystems need not take up entire partitions, as we have LVM that adds and divides in multiple ways, and RAID that combines. And then there's BTRFS, which does all the above, and more.
*"Partitioning (and filesystem formatting) on my disks is something done before any installer is started, and never changed during installation. The openSUSE/YaST partitioner is used here only for designating which filesystems are to be mounted where.*"
Felix - Thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Your last paragraph captures yet a different nuance about the purpose of the YaST partitioner. You and I both view it as a tool for defining what filesystems are mounted where. But whereas you seem to be saying that you don't use it to define partitions and for setting them up, others seem to be saying that is the main purpose that the YaST partitioner and only what it should be used for. I view it as doing both (and more) and use it to do both (and more). So my takeaway is that in your eyes you also seem to have yet another different view of the Yast partitioner, from the way others are viewing it. I probably have not expressed myself very succinctly or clearly in my previous postings. Trying to convey ones thoughts in a way that won't cause confusion is always very difficult. Clearly the openSuSE/YaST partitioner is doing multiple tasks, but I really did not want to get into the weeds over semantics.
Besides defining and creating partitions, another task that the YaST partitioner is doing is creating lines in fstab. Whether one is editing fstab by hand or is using the YaST partitioner, the result is the same. The user is also defining a relationship between file system mount points and partitions. I don't know of any other tool that defines these relationships or edits and add such definitions to fstab.
Me neither. And that's the reason I often avoid using the YaST partitioner: I do not want the fstab line created.
If there is a separate tool that should be used to define and persist these relationships, please point it out to me. OpenSuSE certainly does not make it easy to find any other such tool that should be used for defining the connections between partitions and mount points! There has been mention of a tool called gparted (which is not supplied as a standard tool nor supplied by default in a fresh OpenSuSE installation.
But it is trivial to add.
I am not familiar with it since it is not a part of the YaST tool set nor easily discoverable.) but AFAIK it does not edit fstab nor define connections between partitions and mount points either.
No, it doesn't. ...
Therefore my complaint and request for help stands, as a user, I would expect to be able to continue to use the YaST partitioner in a Live OpenSuSE environment in the same way as I use it in an installed disk-based system.
Bugzilla :-)
Or I need some other tool to easily define and persist the relationship between partitions and mount points.
Command line :-) ...
-----
There seems to be some confusion, in this thread, between the "rescue" environment and a "live" environment also. To me, a "rescue" environment is referring to the system that is started by using the menu item found on the installation DVD or USB sticks (2nd menu page) for booting the system up in rescue mode.
No. I refer to an specific image not intended for installation, but for rescue. Download and put on an USB stick. Runs XFCE.
That is a very limited form of the full "live" version that I downloaded from the openSuSE downloads website. The available tool set of the "rescue" environment is quite limited and unacceptable, not to mention that it too lacks persistence, and doesn't appear to be expandable either by downloading and installing new packages that I need for solving the problems I have been trying to solve in getting OpenSuSE 15.2 upgraded to OpenSuSE 15.3. Carlos mentioned there is something called a "Rescue LiveCD" which I haven't found/tried yet for SuSE15.3, and perhaps that is causing some of the confusion? I remember a while back one could download something called a Rescue LiveCD but I haven't seen that in ages, and there is no mention of an ISO with that name here - https://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.3/live/
It is available, nevertheless, on the download site. Grep at that link for xfce or rescue. I see they are different: in the past they were the same.
The out of the box upgrade, from 15.2 to 15.3 failed on me, it simply hangs in a black screen and the log files did not provide a clue or error message saying why. So I am trying to figure out why, and I'm using an OpenSuSE 15.3 live USB stick which should prove to be very helpful if I can get it to work. And that is what caused me to initiate this discussion. I want to be able to instrument some of the startup scripts, on the disk based system, so that I can better understand what is happening when I try to boot up my upgraded OpenSuSE 15.3 system and find where and how it is failing. (No, log files have not been helpful either, which is why I want to do some more instrumentation.) I plan to do this iteratively which is why I want persistence in setting up the Live USB stick. Therefore I want to be able to mount partitions from my disk based system into my live OpenSuSE 15.3 system on a USB stick. I don't want to have to learn new tools, such as gparted, unless I absolutely have to, and I really don't want to have to understand all the nitty gritty details about partitions, mount processes etc., I got enough things on my plate to learn about! Which is why I want to use the YaST2 partitioner, it makes it easy to define and use mount points without having to understand a lot of underlying details and commands.
Hum
Again thanks for your time (in reading this rather long post) and help, Marc...
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.3 (Legolas))
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Felix - Thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Your last paragraph captures yet a different nuance about the purpose of the YaST partitioner. You and I both view it as a tool for defining what filesystems are mounted where. But whereas you seem to be saying that you don't use it to define partitions and for setting them up, others seem to be saying that is the main purpose that the YaST partitioner and only what it should be used for.
In the context of doing an installation, that is certainly correct. It will help you partitioning disks, creating file systems and editing fstab.
Besides defining and creating partitions, another task that the YaST partitioner is doing is creating lines in fstab. Whether one is editing fstab by hand or is using the YaST partitioner, the result is the same. The user is also defining a relationship between file system mount points and partitions.
ACK.
I don't know of any other tool that defines these relationships or edits and add such definitions to fstab.
Well, your favourite editor. Not being facetious, but fstab is just a plain text file that is read by 'mount' (amongst others).
If there is a separate tool that should be used to define and persist these relationships, please point it out to me.
There is no such tool. We are really only talking about editing /etc/fstab, according to the syntax as described on the man page for 'mount'.
There has been mention of a tool called gparted (which is not supplied as a standard tool nor supplied by default in a fresh OpenSuSE installation.
IIRC, gparted is a GUI tool - for the command line, there is parted and fdisk (and sfdisk and others too probably). Regardless, they are all for managing partitions on disks.
When I tell the YaST partitioner to commit the changes, that I have made while using it, I also clearly see that the function to actually mount all the defined partitions at their mount points is carried out, before the YaST partitioner terminates. (I suspect by making a call to "mount -all") To my "user" eyes this is also clearly one of the YaST partitioner purposes also, and I don't know how to stop it from doing so.
You can add the mount option 'noauto' to prevent that.
Therefore my complaint and request for help stands, as a user, I would expect to be able to continue to use the YaST partitioner in a Live OpenSuSE environment in the same way as I use it in an installed disk-based system.
I guess there is nothing unreasonable about that, but maybe recall that the Live system images were originally meant to be booted from CD or DVD, the option to use a (writeable) USB stick came later. There was no way of persisting anything to a CD so there is a pretty good chance that YaST does not support that.
Or I need some other tool to easily define and persist the relationship between partitions and mount points.
Your favourite editor. It may not be as easy as with a GUI, but fstab is not that complex.
In other words I expect to be able to use it, to EASILY make and persist these same bindings in a live environment.
Judging by your experience, that is simply not currently supported.
The out of the box upgrade, from 15.2 to 15.3 failed on me, it simply hangs in a black screen and the log files did not provide a clue or error message saying why.
That is almost certainly something we can help you with, here in the list. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.7°C)
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Please explain this further, I do not understand why mounting is not a part of "partition management".
Both Felix and Carlos explained it very well, I probably can't add much of any value. The YaST partitioner helps you manage your diskspace, disk partitions, filesystems plus manage your /etc/fstab which governs automatic mounting of filesystems, e.g. at boot time.
The YaST partitioner, as well as the fstab file is clearly designed to make a connection between partitions and where they are mounted.
That is only a small part of it, managing the fstab file.
The YaST partitioner also makes it easy to visualize the connections and handles the underlying gory details of identifiers (can you remember all the characters used in a UUID to identify a partitions? I can't, and using the YaST partitioner makes this task so much easier.
You don't _have_ to do things by uuid, it is merely one option.
Also, I WANT to set up my live USB stick with what and where I want to mount partitions from my externally installed OpenSuSE system. In other words I want the fstab file on my live USB stick to be set up correctly for the next time I want to use it with that particular external system.
Okay, then all you need to do is edit the fstab, of that live system.
No, I completely understand this distinction. I know I am, and indeed want to, customize my live USB stick to work with a particular installation of OpenSuSE that is installed on my disk drives. In particular, the next time I want to use the live USB stick, I want it to boot up with the external partitions already mounted where I configured them to be mounted in the live environment.
Right, understood.
In other words, I WANT the YaST partitioner running under the live OS to modify (customize) its own version of fstab. And I don't want to have to modify that fstab file by hand either when there is a tool like the YaST partitioner that can make the job of setting up fstab so much easier.
I have the distinct feeling that that simply won't work. The live system is based on a read-only ISO file. Asking YaST to understand this seems to be a bit of a tall order. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C)
On 2022-03-15 09:31, Per Jessen wrote:
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
The YaST partitioner also makes it easy to visualize the connections and handles the underlying gory details of identifiers (can you remember all the characters used in a UUID to identify a partitions? I can't, and using the YaST partitioner makes this task so much easier.
You don't _have_ to do things by uuid, it is merely one option.
For instance, I mount by label. You define the labels, so it is very easy to know which is which. YaST can prepare this, I normally do so. I also use this concoction to see the relationships between partitions, uuid, labels...: lsblk --output NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT | less -S (single line) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.3 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Please explain this further, I do not understand why mounting is not a part of "partition management". Both Felix and Carlos explained it very well, I probably can't add much of any value. Thanks Per for your response. I just posted a new response before I saw yours... I think I see where some of this push-back is coming from and apparently I took this comment about "partition management" a bit out of context or at least without properly framing it. My complaint was about
The YaST partitioner helps you manage your diskspace, disk partitions, filesystems plus manage your /etc/fstab which governs automatic mounting of filesystems, e.g. at boot time. Agreed and that is exactly what I have been saying all along, although apparently misunderstood... The YaST partitioner is doing much more than simply managing partitions themselves.
The YaST partitioner, as well as the fstab file is clearly designed to make a connection between partitions and where they are mounted. That is only a small part of it, managing the fstab file. Maybe small, but nonetheless critical for us users without extensive knowledge of the underlying data structures, tools, configuration requirements etc., of the mechanics of disk partitioning, mount definitions, and their associated sets of parameters!
The YaST partitioner also makes it easy to visualize the connections and handles the underlying gory details of identifiers (can you remember all the characters used in a UUID to identify a partitions? I can't, and using the YaST partitioner makes this task so much easier. You don't _have_ to do things by uuid, it is merely one option. Yeah, I am gathering the fact that there is a large number of very confusing ways to refer to a disk partition! I just learned for example
On 3/15/22 01:31, Per Jessen wrote: the usage of the YaST partitioner and I was responding in that context. I took "partition management" to mean partition management in the context of what the YaST partitioner was doing not in the more limited scope of say what gparted does. And mounting is part of what the YaST partitioner does.... that the old fashion way of referring to partitions via say /dev/sda1 is no longer approved of, because the order of assignment of these labels can change. It seems to be far more messy than I had imagined with lots of different algorithms for naming and using partitions. I guess I am going to have to study more about them (ugh!), to see if they can make things more manageable for me. I have just been going by what's in my fstab files, to see examples of how the connection between disk partitions and mount points is done. I typically use a "monkey see, monkey do" when first approaching new (for me) things, and IMHO UUIDs are "God AWFUL" and scared me away from wanting to edit fstab by hand.
Also, I WANT to set up my live USB stick with what and where I want to mount partitions from my externally installed OpenSuSE system. In other words I want the fstab file on my live USB stick to be set up correctly for the next time I want to use it with that particular external system. Okay, then all you need to do is edit the fstab, of that live system.
Which I have been trying to avoid, like the plague! See above... My feeling is that this is easier said than done...
No, I completely understand this distinction. I know I am, and indeed want to, customize my live USB stick to work with a particular installation of OpenSuSE that is installed on my disk drives. In particular, the next time I want to use the live USB stick, I want it to boot up with the external partitions already mounted where I configured them to be mounted in the live environment. Right, understood.
In other words, I WANT the YaST partitioner running under the live OS to modify (customize) its own version of fstab. And I don't want to have to modify that fstab file by hand either when there is a tool like the YaST partitioner that can make the job of setting up fstab so much easier. I have the distinct feeling that that simply won't work. The live system is based on a read-only ISO file. Asking YaST to understand this seems to be a bit of a tall order.
A USB stick is writable once a live system is installed on it. Not like the old CD's and DVD's that we once used for live systems. So I don't understand why modifying files on it won't work. I have noticed that a live USB stick is certainly willing to get and install updates and do other write/self modifying tasks, so why wouldn't the YaST partitioner also work? Other than the fact that IMHO it has a bug in regards to how the root "/" directory is being handled. Marc...
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On 15/03/2022 21.39, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 3/15/22 01:31, Per Jessen wrote:
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
You don't _have_ to do things by uuid, it is merely one option. Yeah, I am gathering the fact that there is a large number of very confusing ways to refer to a disk partition! I just learned for example that the old fashion way of referring to partitions via say /dev/sda1 is no longer approved of, because the order of assignment of these labels can change. It seems to be far more messy than I had imagined with lots of different algorithms for naming and using partitions. I guess I am going to have to study more about them (ugh!), to see if they can make things more manageable for me. I have just been going by what's in my fstab files, to see examples of how the connection between disk partitions and mount points is done. I typically use a "monkey see, monkey do" when first approaching new (for me) things, and IMHO UUIDs are "God AWFUL" and scared me away from wanting to edit fstab by hand.
There are two basic lines you can use: LABEL=Aux /Other ext4 defaults 0 1 UUID=CE88-C933 /boot/efi vfat defaults 0 0 The UUID already exists, the label is blank unless you manually create it. YaST can create it, gparted too. To see it all: lsblk --output NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT in one line.
In other words, I WANT the YaST partitioner running under the live OS to modify (customize) its own version of fstab. And I don't want to have to modify that fstab file by hand either when there is a tool like the YaST partitioner that can make the job of setting up fstab so much easier. I have the distinct feeling that that simply won't work. The live system is based on a read-only ISO file. Asking YaST to understand this seems to be a bit of a tall order.
A USB stick is writable once a live system is installed on it. Not like the old CD's and DVD's that we once used for live systems. So I don't understand why modifying files on it won't work.
Because the USB has a copy of the CD, identical. The kernel thinks it is seeing a CD filesystem and will not write to it, can't write to it, it is impossible. The first time you boot the USB, "something" detects it is an USB and not a CD, and creates a writeable partition on it. Only one time. Then it joins the RO root partition to the new writeable partition in some strange hybrid, so that it normally reads from the RO partition, and writes to the RW partition created on the first boot, and next time will read from this hybrid as if it were a single partition. But it is not a single partition, it is a union of two, a strange, special union. So no, the YaST partitioner thinks there is no root partition. It can not handle this concoction. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.3 (Legolas))
On 15/03/2022 21.39, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 3/15/22 01:31, Per Jessen wrote:
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
You don't _have_ to do things by uuid, it is merely one option. Yeah, I am gathering the fact that there is a large number of very confusing ways to refer to a disk partition! I just learned for example that the old fashion way of referring to partitions via say /dev/sda1 is no longer approved of, because the order of assignment of these labels can change. It seems to be far more messy than I had imagined with lots of different algorithms for naming and using partitions. I guess I am going to have to study more about them (ugh!), to see if they can make things more manageable for me. I have just been going by what's in my fstab files, to see examples of how the connection between disk partitions and mount points is done. I typically use a "monkey see, monkey do" when first approaching new (for me) things, and IMHO UUIDs are "God AWFUL" and scared me away from wanting to edit fstab by hand.
There are two basic lines you can use:
LABEL=Aux /Other ext4 defaults 0 1 Hi Carlos, yeah I am kinda digging the idea of creating my own labels for each disk partition and using those labels for binding the partition to a mount point. I didn't know this was a possibility but it sure makes a lot of sense! I don't think this will solve the root "/" directory issue on a live USB stick but it does seem like it will make the task of
On 3/15/22 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote: directly editing and maintaining fstab much easier. I will take a shot at it and set up my partitions up on another system with labels, and see what happens to fstab.
UUID=CE88-C933 /boot/efi vfat defaults 0 0
The UUID already exists, the label is blank unless you manually create it. YaST can create it, gparted too.
To see it all:
lsblk --output NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
in one line.
Wowza! That is an impressive command line, and the output from it is exactly what I have wanted to see for a long time now! I.E. I have wanted to know the equivalence between different types of partition labels, and none of the GUI tools, that I have been using, give that info. Thanks I am going to squirrel that command line away in my toolbox!
In other words, I WANT the YaST partitioner running under the live OS to modify (customize) its own version of fstab. And I don't want to have to modify that fstab file by hand either when there is a tool like the YaST partitioner that can make the job of setting up fstab so much easier. I have the distinct feeling that that simply won't work. The live system is based on a read-only ISO file. Asking YaST to understand this seems to be a bit of a tall order.
A USB stick is writable once a live system is installed on it. Not like the old CD's and DVD's that we once used for live systems. So I don't understand why modifying files on it won't work.
Because the USB has a copy of the CD, identical. The kernel thinks it is seeing a CD filesystem and will not write to it, can't write to it, it is impossible.
The first time you boot the USB, "something" detects it is an USB and not a CD, and creates a writeable partition on it. Only one time. Then it joins the RO root partition to the new writeable partition in some strange hybrid, so that it normally reads from the RO partition, and writes to the RW partition created on the first boot, and next time will read from this hybrid as if it were a single partition. But it is not a single partition, it is a union of two, a strange, special union.
OK, that seems pretty ugly (probably just a hack to get the USB version of a live OS working) and that also explains why the USB stick accepts updates and other things that require the ability to "write" to files that are a part of the live OpenSuSE OS. The file system manager, on a USB live stick, must be doing extra work to make this transparent to processes that are running under the live version. This should give the live version of the YaST Partitioner the ability to "modify" fstab as well.
So no, the YaST partitioner thinks there is no root partition. It can not handle this concoction.
And IMHO that is the definition of a bug, but I want a group consensus before reporting it. The file system management tools should make the root "/" dir transparent to all processes and behave consistently with the way the "/" directory is treated on any other OpenSuSE system, no matter how the root "/" directory is actually implemented. This is a key objective in Object Oriented Programming, and I should hope that Linux is using OOD practices in the design and development of the Linux system, tools, models, and software processes. If not then some serious code refactoring should be going on! IMHO of course! Thanks again for your thoughts and input. Marc... -- *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@marcchamberlin.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like./)
Marc Chamberlin wrote:
On 3/15/22 01:31, Per Jessen wrote:
I have the distinct feeling that that simply won't work. The live system is based on a read-only ISO file. Asking YaST to understand this seems to be a bit of a tall order.
A USB stick is writable once a live system is installed on it. Not like the old CD's and DVD's that we once used for live systems. So I don't understand why modifying files on it won't work.
I have never played much with the Live images, but yesterday I grabbed a 15.3 KDE Live image and stuck it on a USB stick. Looking at that stick now, I see a "LiveOS" folder containing a squashfs filesystem image. That can be mounted: "mount -o ro,loop <img> <mntpt>" - then you will see it contains another filesystem image, a root filesystem on ext4. This can be mounted too: "mount -o ro,loop <rootimg> <mntpt2>" - and there is your live filesystem. It seems quite possible to create an fstab the way you want it, but writing it back to the USB stick for next time is a different matter. I wonder if maybe you could use a JeOS image instead, like we do for Raspberries and other ARM devices, but I don't see one available for x86_64. (except for various virtual hosts). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.0°C)
participants (6)
-
Adam Mizerski -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Marc Chamberlin -
Per Jessen