Thanks. I'll check both of them out. On Wednesday 17 January 2007 23:05, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

Brett I. Holcomb wrote:

...

I need to maintain an existing website. The last time I did this was with Windows and Dreamweaver. However, I'm now running OpenSuse 10.1 snip

Thanks.

My own opinion is, I like Quanta. I use it in text mode, but it does have a rather nice graphical mode also if your so inclined. NVu is another nice editor. It also has text and graphical modes. According to their website you can edit pages right on the website. Haven't ever tried that feature so can't speak from personal experience.

Unlike most graphical editors, neither will add any extraneous html to the page.

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(o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on!

-- Brett I. Holcomb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu. It produces awful markup. It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic). You then end up with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix this you have to go into the markup anyway.

I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so frustrated with "why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told them both to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it up for him. It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so awful. So never again! YMMV, of course.

This is exactly my experience. I used NVU once in the past year... I actually persisted with it for a while too. The nested span thing was a nightmare. Everything is fine-ish if you create the content, and then do the markup just once, but if you change your mind on anything, then the nesting gets out of control, and do it a few times and you webpage starts to do funny things. I ended up dropping back to a plain text editor to clean things up (didn't have access to Linux for this work). On Linux.. I almost always use Quanta+. The ability to chose raw code, or wysiwyg views is really nice.. and it (for me anyway) seamlessly switches back and forth as I need it to. My alternative to Quanta is Bluefish. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 18 January 2007 15:08, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

OpenOffice produces some fairly clean code.

Sorry Ken, I disagree completely and would rather say that OpenOffice's html editor is quite useless. It messes up the code by changing the html just by opening a page, inserts unwanted tags etc. - all without asking and without the possibility to turn this weird behaviour off. I don't know what code quanta produces, but at least quanta is well integrated in KDE which for sure is a plus. And it lets you edit the source as you want (in OO you can also edit and clean up the code, but as soon as you save it, all the mess is back again, no way to get around that). IMO OO can really only be used if you just want a little "me-too-page", but not for anything serious. (I use several windows of kwrite [one for the html, another for the css, maybe one for javascripts] plus a browser window, so I can always see the effects of what I'm doing just after clicking reload in the browser. I'm faster with that than earlier when using Adobe GoLive - and have the code as I want it) Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

...

I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu. It produces awful markup. It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic). You then end up with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix this you have to go into the markup anyway.

I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so frustrated with "why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told them both to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it up for him. It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so awful. So never again! YMMV, of course.

This is exactly my experience. I used NVU once in the past year... I actually persisted with it for a while too. The nested span thing was a nightmare. Everything is fine-ish if you create the content, and then do the markup just once, but if you change your mind on anything, then the nesting gets out of control, and do it a few times and you webpage starts to do funny things.

I've never had any problem like this, and I have used Nvu off and on for a couple years. Were you using the graphic mode? I have to admit that I have never tried it in graphic mode. I've only used the text mode. In windows I use an OLD program called HTMLed. It was originally written for Windows 3 and updated to 95. As far as I know it was never updated again after that. It might be a bit difficult to find, but it is still out there. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Marc Wilson:

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 10:55:03PM -0500, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:

...

I need to maintain an existing website. The last time I did this was with Windows and Dreamweaver.

You can't continue to use Windows and Dreamweaver? What's wrong with Dreamweaver?

It produces crappy HTML/CSS just like all the other draggy/droppy thingies. We all tried Dreamweaver in work, but went back to hand coding. It turns out to be quicker than messing with Dreamweaver and the demoronifying it. It's better than FrontPage, I'll give you that, but that's not saying much. And I'm not usually a macho-type programmer who thinks everything should be done in vi and compiled from a Makefile. Give me a decent IDE any day: but I've not found a decent HTML/CSS generator anywhere. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:

I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

StephenW wrote:

--- Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:

...

I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.

OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing. I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could use. I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not. Seems it is not for beginners (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS) using WinXP. I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage. Unless, you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

Thanks SW

99.9999999% of the WYSIWYG editors are pure trash. They make garbage pages. Taking the time to learn HTML is well worth it. Programs like Quanta+ and, despite what some say, Nvu in text mode are very good. I confess, I have never tried either in WYSIWYG mode. They both have "button" shortcuts to the tags that you need most, thus simplifying the process. For Windows, taking the time to locate HTMLed can be worthwhile. It is primarily a text editor, although it does have a "preview" capability in the pro version. As I said in another post it is an OLD Win3/95 program but still works perfectly in XP. Nvu is also available for Windows as a more modern editor. AFAIAC, all the above are easy to use, but then I did my first pages in Notepad. For those that don't want to learn the tags "easy" is Frontpage and it's trash pages. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Jan 18, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:34, StephenW wrote:

...

--- Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:

...

I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.

OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing. I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could use. I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not. Seems it is not for beginners (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS) using WinXP. I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage. Unless, you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

I was under the impression that Frontpage was no longer being produced or supported. If you want something that is compliant and that quite a few use .. try Dreamweaver. You'll have to get CrossOver to use it. You could always use Quanta which is a KDE program and free. :D -- "We should forgive our enemies. But not before they are hanged." Heinrich Heine -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:34, StephenW wrote:

...

--- Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:

...

I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.

OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing. I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could use. I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not. Seems it is not for beginners (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS) using WinXP. I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage. Unless, you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

Try Visual Studio 2005. I was using it today. Seemed to make nice W3C compliant output.

So, it runs on linux then? If so, I might look at it sometime. But if it's windoze-only, it's a non-starter. Jow -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd StephenW:

Seems it is not for beginners (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS) using WinXP. I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage. Unless, you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

Thanks SW

Aaaargh! The last thing anyone should do (IMHO) is to learn HTML/XHTML/CSS using WYSIWYG tools. All they teach is how to produce bad code. Sorry to be negative, but I'm very much afraid it's true. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Quoting StephenW :

--- Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:

...

I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.

OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing. I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could use. I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not. Seems it is not for beginners (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS) using WinXP. I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage. Unless, you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

Thanks SW

--

Apologies if this mail is out of date but I have blown my processor in two with a faulty fan locking up and are using my isp's webmail. If your tied to windows have a look at html-free, it's out there (twocows.com.au at least) and a darned good WYSIWYG package and as it says it's free. scsijon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org