Ken Schneider wrote:

On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 14:00 -0600, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:

...

How can I find out whether SuSE intends to distribute the upgrade to Gnome shipped with SuSE 10.0?

John Arson is supposed to be working on gnome 2.14 packages here, http://jarpack.com/suse/10.0/RPMS/

* Dennis J. Tuchler [03-25-06 12:07]:

Novell/SuSE has a set of download directories for Gnome set up specifically for SuSE 10.0, but it includes nothing past versions of 2.12. I was wondering whether there will be an upgrade of files in that set of directories, set up specifically for SuSE installations.

As as been said here many times, SUSE (all caps) does *not* normally do version updates on applications contained in distribution packages (ie: gnome 2.12 in SUSE 10.0). You are not new here and should not expect as much. note: I believe that it will not be in 10.1 either, but *may* be in 10.2. note2: I read the list and do not expect you to cc me an additional copy of the list mail you generate! Reply to the LIST! unless specifically requested otherwise. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-03-25 at 14:29 -0500, ken wrote:

I looked at the complete headers in your email and didn't see any Reply-to in it. The From field, on the other hand, was there and contained your email address (not the LIST's).

So isn't this the way the LIST was set up?

You are supposed to use a "list friendly mail client", like kmail, for instance, and use the command "reply to list", which will do the proper thing. If you don't have it (as myself) use "reply to all", but then remove the direct reply from the headers. Or, you can setup a filter to add a reply-to header (as I do) to received mail. You have information about this in this list FAQ (mail to "suse-linux-e-faq@suse...."), regarding the whys and such. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEJaI9tTMYHG2NR9URAm0AAJ94nkpOpGhQViLBbEdnRD3Sf5ZfHQCfVhjw RLjHfZwMjyZQVlivgAY8YWs= =nE7a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-03-27 at 12:54 -0500, ken wrote:

A second, derivative point (pertaining to instructions and documentation on this issue): Isn't it silly to configure the list server so that replies go to the poster and then ask each and every user to run through special instructions and documentation, then change to a different email client and/or change how their client works just to defeat that list configuration?

Not really. Just because a majority (not in linux mail servers, by the way) do it the other way, doesn't make it right :-P Think. An example. Somebody on this list, goes on vacation and set up an autoresponder (I'll be out of the office till...). The list keeps sending him his email, his autoresponder will respond to the list, the list will forward that to him again... we get an endless loop, thousands of emails sent to everybody. But, as there is no reply-to, that will not happen here.

(List users don't have to read special documentation or change their email client or change its behavior. It just works.)

It "just works" with properly designed programs that are list aware and follow the standard, like kmail. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEKDTxtTMYHG2NR9URAgibAJ9pggvq5qtX/9QVuVmy4qBGsC52CwCeLnG4 ooJieW80GjWHLVHSWNkevoE= =54GW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

* ken [03-25-06 14:31]:

Patrick,

I looked at the complete headers in your email and didn't see any Reply-to in it. The From field, on the other hand, was there and contained your email address (not the LIST's).

So isn't this the way the LIST was set up?

see: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

Ken, On Monday 27 March 2006 08:19, ken wrote:

...

...

see: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Insanely weak argument. Because the author mistakenly sent a private email to an entire list, he wants everyone to cripple how lists have worked for decades.

BS. Lame-ass mailing lists have done this and subject-line tagging for far too long. That's all. This list does it right. The fact that it's an exception just means most are doing it wrong. Using the standards and specifications as they're written and for what they're intended is proper. The sloth and ignorance of users or administrators is not a valid reason to misuse a standard.

Nor does that webpage address the issue I brought up. But that's okay. I really wasn't expecting an answer.

Then why did you ask? Randall Schulz

On Monday 27 March 2006 12:21 pm, Felix Miata wrote:
> Most lists are discussion lists, and as such intelligently set the
> default reply-to to the group, which is how discussions are most easily
> kept going. Accidental private sends frequently cause thread delays or
> total breaks when a participant fails to notice his errant reply failed
> to get sent back to him from the list.
Not true. Most lists (at least the ones I both use and run) do NOT set the 
Reply-to. Listserv software, such as Mailman and Majordomo default to not 
setting the reply-to. Over the past 15+ years I have been running lists, we 
have had numerous discussions on this, as we have here. 
There are 2 reasons why setting the reply-to to the list is not desirable:
1. Mail loops. Occasionally when a user sets the vacation switch, with 
reply-to set back to the list, you can get an unending loop of vacation 
messages where the list admin usually needs to remove that user.

2. Many times replies are intended to the poster and not the list. By not 
setting reply-to, the listserv tends to keep the number of poster specific 
replies down.

Also many email clients are not list-aware so that users can easily reply 
directly back to the list.
-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On Mon, 2006-03-27 at 15:15 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

On 06/03/27 13:06 Jerry Feldman apparently typed:

...

Most lists (at least the ones I both use and run) do NOT set the Reply-to.

I'm on upwards of 40 lists, of which about 6 do not set reply-to to the list.

...

1. Mail loops. Occasionally when a user sets the vacation switch, with reply-to set back to the list, you can get an unending loop of vacation messages where the list admin usually needs to remove that user.

I can't imagine that the listserv software can't be smart enough to prevent these. If I was a list admin, 100% of auto responses would immediately unsubscribe the perpetrator.

...

2. Many times replies are intended to the poster and not the list. By not setting reply-to, the listserv tends to keep the number of poster specific replies down.

If "many times" were to constitute upwards of 50% this would be a justfication. On discussion lists, intent to reply only to sender happens a small fraction of the time. Not setting reply-to to a list here violates the principle of least surprise. It also causes many people to hit reply-all as a counter measure, causing two posts where, as here, only one was warranted. Then why did you do just that, send two replies out. One to the list and one to Jerry.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

* Hylton Conacher(ZR1HPC) [03-29-06 12:51]:

In support of Felix, Probably using the Reply-All feature as I have to each time I reply to a mail. Of course it is quite easy to forget to remove one of the email addresse's

But *your* choice of email client! -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

* Hylton Conacher(ZR1HPC) [04-02-06 04:39]:

The question is, which email clients, and I assume there are many to accomodate the worldwise audience the list has, are available that provide the 'Reply-To' feature/method this list requires.

No, not 'Reply-To', but a List-Reply function that recognizes a mailing list and replies to the 'List'. Mutt, KMail and evolution have this feature (that I know of).

We ALL know that many email clienta are not 'suitable' for this list, but no one has yet supplied a list, to my knowledge, of the ones that do provide this lists 'feature'.

'suitable' may be a poor choice of words. Any email client may be suitable, but require the user to make adjustments to his client's "usual" presentation.

From the previous postings I am so far aware that KMail is compliant to this however backward, correct according to standards list.

Can/would anyone care to provide a list, both for the current OP and which, in my opinion, should be included in the list FAQ/Help?

I perrsonally would be most interested in Mozilla and Thunderbird.

AFAIK, they do not. You must choose the list address. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2006-04-02 at 09:22 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

mailing list and replies to the 'List'.

Mutt, KMail and evolution have this feature (that I know of).

And balsa, but not Pine. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD4DBQFEMGcstTMYHG2NR9URAg46AKCU9+sAW1qL5rEM2KrIrHBbHPwoDwCXRz1f tswLOc2442HOgXw3zESlXQ== =OrOl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Hylton Conacher(ZR1HPC) [04-02-06 04:39]:

...

The question is, which email clients, and I assume there are many to accomodate the worldwise audience the list has, are available that provide the 'Reply-To' feature/method this list requires.

It might be another good idea to notify people who may want to subscribe to this list that probably they'll need to change email clients in order to accommodate how this list is set up. This information would give them warning that they may have to download and probably will have to configure an email client especially for this list. We could also point them to this thread to show them how all this makes sense.

No, not 'Reply-To', but a List-Reply function that recognizes a mailing list and replies to the 'List'.

And we should point them to the place in the the relevant RFCs where it explains this.

Mutt, KMail and evolution have this feature (that I know of).

If someone is using Windows and is considering using suse and wants to use this list to find out about suse, which email client should we tell them to use... one that runs on Windows?

...

We ALL know that many email clienta are not 'suitable' for this list, but no one has yet supplied a list, to my knowledge, of the ones that do provide this lists 'feature'.

'suitable' may be a poor choice of words. Any email client may be suitable, but require the user to make adjustments to his client's "usual" presentation.

Apparently Thunderbird needs to be fixed to work "suitably" on this list. How is this done? Are changes to the source code required?

...

From the previous postings I am so far aware that KMail is compliant to this however backward, correct according to standards list.

Can/would anyone care to provide a list, both for the current OP and which, in my opinion, should be included in the list FAQ/Help?

I perrsonally would be most interested in Mozilla and Thunderbird.

AFAIK, they do not. You must choose the list address.

This is correct-- I mean, that T-bird isn't suse-linux-e@suse.com-compliant. -- "This world ain't big enough for the both of us," said the big noema to the little noema.

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* ken [04-03-06 08:22]:

...

It might be another good idea to notify people who may want to subscribe to this list that probably they'll need to change email clients in order to accommodate how this list is set up.

This is a 'chicken little - the sky is falling' statement. It merely requires that the user understand the operation of his chosen email client and then to use it properly.

...

This information would give them warning that they may have to download and probably will have to configure an email client especially for this list. We could also point them to this thread to show them how all this makes sense.

Completely false.

...

...

No, not 'Reply-To', but a List-Reply function that recognizes a mailing list and replies to the 'List'. And we should point them to the place in the the relevant RFCs where it explains this.

This is not an RFC, but a *feature* offered by particular email clients. Other email clients have features not offered by these particular clients.

Heck, let's call it a "convenience".

...

If someone is using Windows and is considering using suse and wants to use this list to find out about suse, which email client should we tell them to use... one that runs on Windows?

Any that they prefer, they need to understand how to reply to the list rather than the poster.

IOW, not reply to Reply-to.

...

Apparently Thunderbird needs to be fixed to work "suitably" on this list. How is this done? Are changes to the source code required?

It will never be 'suitable' until *you* understand it's operation.

That's a little simplistic. You need to understand how the mail and list servers work also.

...

...

This is correct-- I mean, that T-bird isn't suse-linux-e@suse.com-compliant.

It certainly is, but is feature lacking and it's operator does not want to use it properly or does not understand or refuses to apply it's proper usage.

Perhaps by "proper" you mean "idiosyncratic" or "in the context of this list", certainly not "universally accepted". I would agree with another poster on this topic: we should have another list to discuss how to use this list. If we do that, for the sake of fairness and compliance with standards, maybe it could be set up the other way, so that a reply goes to whatever "Reply-to" says. -- "This world ain't big enough for the both of us," said the big noema to the little noema.

On Monday 03 April 2006 10:17 am, ken wrote:

I would agree with another poster on this topic: we should have another list to discuss how to use this list.  If we do that, for the sake of fairness and compliance with standards, maybe it could be set up the other way, so that a reply goes to whatever "Reply-to" says. This discussion is meaningless unless the list owner participates.

The bottom line is that there are many people on the list who prefer the list to remain as it is, and conversely many people who would prefer to change the Reply-to: field to be set to the list. Personally, my email programs understand listservs and when I want to reply to the list, I press the appropriate button. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On 04/04/06, Felix Miata wrote:

On 06/04/03 10:17 ken apparently typed:

...

I would agree with another poster on this topic: we should have another list to discuss how to use this list.

That's really pointless. Suselinuxusers on yahoogroups already has 1306 subscribers, and IIRC it does as does most of the world's dicussion lists, as is the yahoogroups norm, by setting replies back to the list by default. If everyone subscribing here who disagrees with this list's policy would unsubscribe here and subscribe there, eventually we'd probably be able to see which policy works best simply from the subscriber counts.

A slightly more extreme alternative would be to install factory, subscribe to the opensuse-factory list, and couch all your questions in factory terms to ensure they're on topic there, where replies are set to go automatically back to the list by default. --

Along those lines of thinking, Felix, I wonder just how many subscribers there are to this list? Compared to all those Yahoo Groups subscribers? I don't agree with the set reply policy but I put up with it. It's not really a 'big' deal even though I did what many other have done and will do by asking about it on list. I don't even bother getting involved in the arguments anymore - this mail being an exception to the rule of course :-) -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Xmas may be over but, PLEASE DON'T drink and drive you'll make it to the next one that way. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Il giorno lun, 27/03/2006 alle 13.06 -0500, Jerry Feldman ha scritto:

Over the past 15+ years I have been running lists, we have had numerous discussions on this, as we have here.

I see :-)

There are 2 reasons why setting the reply-to to the list is not desirable: 1. Mail loops. Occasionally when a user sets the vacation switch, with reply-to set back to the list, you can get an unending loop of vacation messages where the list admin usually needs to remove that user.

This, usually, is done with a "work" mail account. And i do think think that here many of us aren't here *for working* reasons {i mean, if i am a SuSE customer i have a real help desk to referr to}. In this 5 years and a half of internet that i've done I've seen _zero_ times the use of such a "responder". And when i've seen this option it was always included in proprietary clients.

2. Many times replies are intended to the poster and not the list. By not setting reply-to, the listserv tends to keep the number of poster specific replies down.

This, also, i see happening rarely. If i'm into a list i want people to read what i have to say. If i want to say "shut this bull***t up" to someone i can do in public AND privately, in second tense (it's a corret way of saying, right?)

Also many email clients are not list-aware so that users can easily reply directly back to the list.

So basically "you" are saying that nearly every on OSS email client aside form Mutt and Sylpheed (IIRC) is badly developed ... I'll see how to fill a bugzilla. And hope someone listens (but hey, Mozilla & co are older that my internet experience, why they did never managed that ?) I am *accepting* how this list {and 3 others i'm subscribed into - over a bunch of 30} is set. But i don't like it, and i do not like the motivation "you" are addresing. Cheers, -n -- nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. losito http://koolinus.wordpress.com http://www.koolinus.net [ITA] powered by SUSE Linux 10.0

Il giorno gio, 30/03/2006 alle 01.21 +0200, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

The Thursday 2006-03-30 at 00:44 +0200, Losito Nicola wrote:

...

In this 5 years and a half of internet that i've done I've seen _zero_ times the use of such a "responder".

And I have seen dozens, in SuSE lists; perhaps I write more than you.

it's probably true, even if i meant "in general" and not in this list ... the point is anyone has his experiences and background so the choise is on the shoulder of the people that are dedicating their time to run the lists here ...

...

So basically "you" are saying that nearly every on OSS email client aside form Mutt and Sylpheed (IIRC) is badly developed ...

Kmail, for instance, has it. Balsa, also evolution if I remember right...

...

I'll see how to fill a bugzilla. And hope someone listens

I don't think so. Did you read this list FAQ? Do so, please, it is explained there.

I'm using Evolution (as you can verify in my headers) and i have just seen that the option is here too, digged into "Message" menu or CTRL+L key combination. So i'll fill a buzilla asking to add a more visible button. That was the kind of bugzilla i was referring to. Anyway i'll search the list FAQ's too, always willing to learn and improve myself. -- nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. losito http://koolinus.wordpress.com http://www.koolinus.net [ITA] powered by SUSE Linux 10.0

On Wednesday 29 March 2006 23:44, Losito Nicola wrote:

Il giorno lun, 27/03/2006 alle 13.06 -0500, Jerry Feldman ha scritto:

...

2. Many times replies are intended to the poster and not the list. By not setting reply-to, the listserv tends to keep the number of poster specific replies down.

This, also, i see happening rarely. If i'm into a list i want people to read what i have to say. If i want to say "shut this bull***t up" to someone i can do in public AND privately, in second tense (it's a corret way of saying, right?)

The point is, you may _not_ be able to send me a private reply, if the list has set the Reply-To header. If my From address goes to an account I can't read, then you need to see _my_ Reply-To header, _not_ the list address, in order to send me a private email. That's why the configuration of this list is correct. -- Bill Gallafent.

William Gallafent wrote:

On Wednesday 29 March 2006 23:44, Losito Nicola wrote: <snip>

The point is, you may _not_ be able to send me a private reply, if the list has set the Reply-To header. If my From address goes to an account I can't read, then you need to see _my_ Reply-To header, _not_ the list address, in order to send me a private email.

That's why the configuration of this list is correct. Hi William,

I am afraid I have to disagree. The point of the list is not to sent private messages to one another, it is to send the messages to a group of subscribers about a common topic. If subscribers want to sent each other private messages then there is nothing stopping them 'Replying to all' and editing out the mailing list address. Setting the 'Reply to' to the list address keeps those interested in the commin topic informed about each others views/opinions. Should I dislike your opinion, and as this forum is a list and the topic I would like to discuss with you is not relevant to the group, then I can discuss it with you privately via private email. As it stands, unfortunately, we are all using this list without payment for our own enrichment and therefore have to gratfully accept what the list-owner supplies. -- ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Currently using SuSE 9.2 Professional with KDE ========================================================================

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-03-25 at 13:04 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

As as been said here many times, SUSE (all caps) does *not* normally do version updates on applications contained in distribution packages (ie: gnome 2.12 in SUSE 10.0).

But SuSE (sorry, Patrick :-P) has a gnome update repository, the same as it has a kde one, in ".../supplementary/GNOME", which at present is at version 2.12, even for SuSE 9.3, that comes with 2.10 in the dvd. It is not a "supported" version, but it is an official update of sorts. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEJaS/tTMYHG2NR9URAlc9AJ9O3wYnb+EXUgy7NK+SdSRN0crvZACfVEFN IqDkDJqhi0riN+tiZa/ROlc= =2Mun -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-03-25 at 15:18 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <robin1> [03-25-06 15:16]:

...

It is not a "supported" version, but it is an official update of sorts.

no argument, but there are "key words", supported and official.

True, but Dennis did not mention that either ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEJaodtTMYHG2NR9URAksHAJ473eHCr80fj1qwLrY7w37wLVVZvwCdGf64 v/0T/1a8blJR0lXUJZA4VNg= =7Nmn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sat, 2006-03-25 at 18:35 -0500, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Sat, 2006-03-25 at 21:37 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2006-03-25 at 15:18 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <robin1> [03-25-06 15:16]:

...

It is not a "supported" version, but it is an official update of sorts.

no argument, but there are "key words", supported and official.

True, but Dennis did not mention that either ;-)

If the packages are from a third party repo they are neither supported or official, they are use at your own risk.

Also, after searching through the SUSE 10.1 factory listings Gnome 2.12 will be used in 10.1 not 2.14. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On Sat, 2006-03-25 at 21:14 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2006-03-25 at 13:04 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

As as been said here many times, SUSE (all caps) does *not* normally do version updates on applications contained in distribution packages (ie: gnome 2.12 in SUSE 10.0).

But SuSE (sorry, Patrick :-P) has a gnome update repository, the same as it has a kde one, in ".../supplementary/GNOME", which at present is at version 2.12, even for SuSE 9.3, that comes with 2.10 in the dvd. It is not a "supported" version, but it is an official update of sorts.

Except that the evolution there is broken. It uses library versions from previous RPMs that are no longer in the same directory. I have tried to recompile evolution from source, but things are not going my way. I suspect this is why the evolution RPM is also not updated. So, be careful with this repository! -- Roger

On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 23:47 -0700, Marc Benstein wrote:

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 14:00 -0600, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:

...

How can I find out whether SuSE intends to distribute the upgrade to Gnome shipped with SuSE 10.0?

John Arson is supposed to be working on gnome 2.14 packages here, http://jarpack.com/suse/10.0/RPMS/

Anyone have specific instructions on how to revert to the original SUSIE 10.0 GNOME? I have been installing gnome updates from the SUSE supplemental update directory, where things are now broken - especially evolution. I would happily revert. I suspect it is not an easy thing to do... - Roger

On Sun, 2006-03-26 at 17:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Monday 2006-03-27 at 01:00 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

Er... I'd like to know the secret of time travel! What's up tomorrow, any stock exchange tips you can tell me?

Buy Ericsson :) -- Roger