On Sun, 2010-08-08 at 10:49 +0200, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

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- Default nouveau driver can only be removed making a new initrd file. Hmm, I haven't done anything besides adding the nvidia repo. Everything else seemed to have happened automatically. At least I have the nvidia driver running and didn't do anything besides getting the packages installed.

+1 Same here. -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2010 05:35 PM, Malcolm wrote:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:18:26 -0400 Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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On Sun, 2010-08-08 at 10:49 +0200, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

...

- Default nouveau driver can only be removed making a new initrd file.

Hmm, I haven't done anything besides adding the nvidia repo. Everything else seemed to have happened automatically. At least I have the nvidia driver running and didn't do anything besides getting the packages installed.

+1 Same here.

Hi When you install the rpm, it makes the necessary adjustments and runs mkinitrd...

Yes, Idd, I followed previous advice and it works. However, current NVIDIA driver is 256.44, repo still has the 256.35 version. So, under 2.6.34.3 and 2.6.35.1 I just leave the nouveau driver out. Still, the other issues remain but adding a modes line to the xorg.conf file help to solve the resolution changing and 2.6.35(.1) resolves the latency issue. Really, xrandr is a solution for which you need to have at least 3 degrees to make it work (little exaggerating :)). I mean, user friendliness has gone out of the window here. Hm, must have had a false notion picked up along the line that most OSS developers care about the possible normal end users. Sorry, my mistake. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2010 12:05 AM, C wrote:

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 23:44, Frans de Boer wrote:

...

Still, the other issues remain but adding a modes line to the xorg.conf file help to solve the resolution changing and 2.6.35(.1) resolves the latency issue. Really, xrandr is a solution for which you need to have at least 3 degrees to make it work (little exaggerating :)). I mean, user friendliness has gone out of the window here. Hm, must have had a false notion picked up along the line that most OSS developers care about the possible normal end users. Sorry, my mistake.

Generally speaking, the new Xorg works very very well. It's only a very small number of users that are facing issues after the change.

sax2 was a great tool, but it lacked a maintainer going forward. It was brought up, with a request for volunteers.. no one stepped up.. it was dropped. That's the harsh reality of OSS. When new features some in to play, the older and sometimes very reliable methods die off. Look at Beagle and how much effort and pain went into that... it's essentially dead now.

the Xorg auto detect works in more than 99% of the cases. The less than 1% that have special use cases are left to the fall back.. creating their own xorg.conf or tinkering with xrandr. It seems to hit hardest on those using high-end old CRTs at high resolutions. CRTs are really... getting harder to find and subsequently harder to support as Linux evolves. I can understand why someone doing work on image editing or video editing may need the CRT features (more accurate color, higher resolutions, and crisper display)... but those who write the software we use are not typically in that very small user group... thus.. the software they write ends up being more for the majority... those who are using TFT monitors... that provide proper ID info reporting and can be easily autodetected and set up by Xorg.

User friendliness in Xorg has increased a thousand times(or more) for the seething masses (ie users like me)... at the unfortunate expense of the dwindling few such as yourself. :-(

C

I understand your reasoning and appreciate the effort you put in to explain things. First of all: I use two 22" LCD displays - no CRT's anymore. Total pixel area 3360*1050. Using the ctrl+alt+-/+ keys I could switch display resolution on the fly and use panning if needed. Using the xrandr 1.3 utility needs some study to make one or two scripts to implement the same behavior and have a quick response instead to using some arcane cli method for which you seem to have the man page also online because of the many different options. As far as I can see, we are living in a graphical world and cli's are still needed but should be hidden mostly from none technical users. Now, I am technically trained and can find my way. But how am I to recommend this to others if a simple physical display resolution can not even be done anymore. Sorry, this is - in my view - no progress but a step back. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/10/2010 6:41 PM, C wrote:

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 00:29, Frans de Boer wrote:

...

Now, I am technically trained and can find my way. But how am I to recommend this to others if a simple physical display resolution can not even be done anymore. Sorry, this is - in my view - no progress but a step back.

Well.. simple display resolution... is actually quite simple. In KDE4, you go to the Personal Settings> Display and pick it from the list. That's pretty simple in my opinion.. Ok, it doesn't have the I am glad I saw your post. I will have to check it out tonight. I could not find that display setting and I was inclined to agree that this latest development was a big step back. Until I saw your post I thought it was very silly to have to tinker with X settings while the Windows (gasp) world made it easy for years. Thanks.

Damon Register -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2010 07:53 AM, C wrote:

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 13:28, Damon Register wrote:

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...

Well.. simple display resolution... is actually quite simple. In KDE4, you go to the Personal Settings> Display and pick it from the list. That's pretty simple in my opinion.. Ok, it doesn't have the

I am glad I saw your post. I will have to check it out tonight. I could not find that display setting and I was inclined to agree that this latest development was a big step back. Until I saw your post I thought it was very silly to have to tinker with X settings while the Windows (gasp) world made it easy for years. Thanks.

This is the same in Gnome too - different menu path of course, but the same effect. Easy resolution adjustment via the Display settings... assuming you don't need rapid repeat resolution changes that the old keyboard shortcut keys used to provide.

This same place is where I go to set up multi-display (on my netbook)... something I also find VERY easy, but seems to cause a lot of grief for a few people on the mailing list... I'm not sire if it's that they don't know of this, or this part of the Display settings simply doesn't work in their case... but I've found it to be pretty robust overall.

On that note... the user preferences.... the whole layout of the user preferences has changed from KDE4.4.4 (default for 11.3) and KDE4.5.0. they've done a major overhaul, consolidating things, and grouping things a lot more intelligently. It's well worth taking a look around in there if you've bumped up to KDE4.5.0... or even if you're still on KDE4.4.4. There is a lot of that "old" functionality that used to be provided via YaST that is there now in the KDE Preferences... and for the most part, it works a lot better now than the way it used to be when it was split between prefs and YaST.. eg setting up keyboards and touchpads. (I still have to try it with digitizer tablets to see how well that works though)

C.

Yes but even the things I can change in DE 4.4 Desktop settings for the monitor does not stick for the next time you boot up they drop back to it's settings not mine such as the resolution, and that should be in a bug report not a feature request -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is Robert Cunningham Sr. Physics Laboratory Coordinator /RSO K -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2010 01:28 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/08/11 00:29 (GMT+0200) Frans de Boer composed:

...

...how am I to recommend this to others if a simple physical display resolution can not even be done anymore. Sorry, this is - in my view - no progress but a step back.

Seems more like 4-5 steps back since randr was conceived. Used to be X could itself perform the functions of cvt, gtf, xmode and/or randr, using a simple expression of desired resolution from xorg.conf to produce the user's preference, but can in many or most cases no longer, instead requiring running in advance any or more of several utilities, and putting their results in some startup script instead of a config file.

In response to your concerns and the reaction of "C" I can say that I do see the advantage of X being self configuring/detecting the hardware. But sacrificing the different resolution possibilities is a design decision and therefor a bug report would be inappropriate. It's no bug, it's a feature (or lack of). By the way, Mac and Windows do support dual displays with different resolutions. However, no panning there - unless the driver supports that natively. Anyhow, we can work around that by changing the xorg.conf file or running xrandr within a script or not. Fact is that the user experience of self configuring X is just one time only and invisible to the user, but the previous goodies are not there anymore for those who use it daily and are not available for future audience anymore making the X experience similar to Mac and Windows - thus not offering any extra. Glad to hear the voice of Felix too, so I am no longer alone in this world ;) So what we actually should do is making a feature request - not a bug report - to restore the previous functionalities with the same easy of control. Or, if that is not honored, to preserve the xorg.conf file functionality in future releases so technical skilled people still can use the required functionality. Also, to get at least on par with Windows and Mac again offer a GUI (intuitive) for xrandr. The display setting experience under X are now static and offer nothing for the normal user to set/change various resolutions. I will look at the xorg site to see where I can drop these requests and concerns. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2010 12:05 AM, C wrote:

...

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 23:44, Frans de Boer wrote:

...

Still, the other issues remain but adding a modes line to the xorg.conf file help to solve the resolution changing and 2.6.35(.1) resolves the latency issue. Really, xrandr is a solution for which you need to have at least 3 degrees to make it work (little exaggerating :)). I mean, user friendliness has gone out of the window here. Hm, must have had a false notion picked up along the line that most OSS developers care about the possible normal end users. Sorry, my mistake.

Generally speaking, the new Xorg works very very well. It's only a very small number of users that are facing issues after the change.

sax2 was a great tool, but it lacked a maintainer going forward. It was brought up, with a request for volunteers.. no one stepped up.. it was dropped. That's the harsh reality of OSS. When new features some in to play, the older and sometimes very reliable methods die off. Look at Beagle and how much effort and pain went into that... it's essentially dead now.

the Xorg auto detect works in more than 99% of the cases. The less than 1% that have special use cases are left to the fall back.. creating their own xorg.conf or tinkering with xrandr. It seems to hit hardest on those using high-end old CRTs at high resolutions. CRTs are really... getting harder to find and subsequently harder to support as Linux evolves. I can understand why someone doing work on image editing or video editing may need the CRT features (more accurate color, higher resolutions, and crisper display)... but those who write the software we use are not typically in that very small user group... thus.. the software they write ends up being more for the majority... those who are using TFT monitors... that provide proper ID info reporting and can be easily autodetected and set up by Xorg.

User friendliness in Xorg has increased a thousand times(or more) for the seething masses (ie users like me)... at the unfortunate expense of the dwindling few such as yourself. :-(

C

I understand your reasoning and appreciate the effort you put in to explain things. First of all: I use two 22" LCD displays - no CRT's anymore. Total pixel area 3360*1050. Using the ctrl+alt+-/+ keys I could switch display resolution on the fly and use panning if needed. Using the xrandr 1.3 utility needs some study to make one or two scripts to implement the same behavior and have a quick response instead to using some arcane cli method for which you seem to have the man page also online because of the many different options. As far as I can see, we are living in a graphical world and cli's are still needed but should be hidden mostly from none technical users.

Now, I am technically trained and can find my way. But how am I to recommend this to others if a simple physical display resolution can not even be done anymore. Sorry, this is - in my view - no progress but a step back.

Frans.

I agree with Frans, I have a brand new 24" Samsung and this crappy new way of doing things made it where I could not even use 11.3. The Samsung would turn itself off before I could make any changes. SuSE should not get rid of something that works until the newer thing is working. And this is not. So I'm stuck on 11.2 until something better happens. JIM -- The US was colonized by the religious, political, economic, and criminal rejects of every country in the world. We have been carefully breeding insane, obsessive, fanatic lunatics with each other for over 400 years, resulting in the glorious strain of humanity known as "Americans". You have to expect some... peculiarities. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 21:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2010-08-11 20:58, James Hatridge wrote:

...

I agree with Frans, I have a brand new 24" Samsung and this crappy new way of doing things made it where I could not even use 11.3. The Samsung would turn itself off before I could make any changes. SuSE should not get rid of something that works until the newer thing is working. And this is not. So I'm stuck on 11.2 until something better happens.

It is not suse, it is upstream.

If your monitor is incorrectly detected -> bugzilla

That's what I've been trying to say. :-) It's not a openSUSE decision... it was an Xorg decision. Before anyone yells about sax2 yet again... the package needed a maintainer... not one person stepped up or even responded when the call went out for someone to take over maintenance. No maintainer means... no package. It's the harsh reality of OSS. I'd bet that if someone were to step up even now and resurrect sax2.. fix the bugs in it etc... it could be made available again via the community repos. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 23:34, Greg Freemyer wrote:

But in all this, other than sax2 I don't know what was lost from before if I do 2 simple things:

1) Add "nomodeset" to the grub boot entry.  That keeps the new KMS kernel drivers from being used and instead causes the old frame buffer drivers to be used.  That's what 11.2 and older used as I understand it.

2) From init level 3 run "x --configure" to create a basic xorg.conf file in your home directory.  This file will have the all of the autodetected features in it.  You can then copy it down to /etc/X11/xorg.conf and tweak it to your hearts content.

Admittedly tweaking xorg.conf via sax2 was easier than by hand, but the ability to tweak is not gone aiui.

Exactly... I was just hoping to catch the "why did we loose sax2" argument before it started :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-08-11 23:08, C wrote:

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 21:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I'd bet that if someone were to step up even now and resurrect sax2.. fix the bugs in it etc... it could be made available again via the community repos.

It is actually there, somewhere. But I doubt it would work. First, default video is handled in kernel space, not xorg. I'm not sure of what implications does this have at the time of configuring it via sax2. Can it do it? Then, you have the nomodeset thing, the kms thing, changing initrd, etc. It has to handle that part, and this is new. Then, the input things. mice, keyboard. The handling now is different. udev, hal, whatever, that few people understand. I don't. IIRC, the last mantainers said something about sax not being able to handle these right, or not at all. With all these problems, sax2 is useless as it is! It is sad, but... the truth (AFAIK). There is a version in the buildservice, but I doubt that it has been modified that much. What we need is a sax3 that handles X twinkling for the new age. Not as big as its antecesor, but that does a few basic things, instead of having to read manuals and edit text files >;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxjyWQACgkQU92UU+smfQUjgQCdGS/65OAa7OEpSL5Hxp5QnBcN LywAnAyGl3wj/Cw4cHuRTKeMpn95a5b4 =dXU7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/08/11 00:05 (GMT+0200) C composed:

I can understand why someone doing work on image editing or video editing may need the CRT features (more accurate color, higher resolutions, and crisper display)

Not to forget running as many simultaneous resolutions as one is wont to configure. Here e.g. I normally run 1856x1392 on :0, but test web pages and software on :1 @ 1600x1200 with 1920x1200 panning to emulate a 1920x1200 LCD, 1024x768 with 1280x800 panning to emulate a 1280x800 LCD, or 1920x1440 with 2560x1440 panning to emulate 2560x1440 HDTV, or all at once using also :2 & :3. What LCD (or Windows or Mac) can do that? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

Using Suse since version 7.3 I have seen some versions which should never have seen the light of day. I fear 11.3 is one of them

You need a list of experts as on this list to get 11.3 running. Without this list, my network and I would be stuck with 7.3. 11.3 is not easy and not for first time users. Unless you have access to this list, and I thank you all for giving up your spare time to help me, I've made so much progress I even use it at home to watch videos and listen to music. Without this list I would never have dreamt of thinking Linux was anything other than a firewall. Saludos, Best wishes: L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org