-----Original Message----- From: Clint Tinsley [mailto:cttinsley@qwest.net] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:00 AM To: SuseLinux Subject: Re: [SLE] Easier in?? Was SuSE CTO and President Steps Down

Harrell, Tim wrote:

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I disagree with how much easier it is on windows. I'd say that installs of modern Distros like Suse are significantly easier than on windows. Take a new machine with a virgin (unformatted disk). I can do a default package install of SuSE 7.2 on this in less than half an hour (the IBM disks I have are v.quick). There's no way I can do windows NT/W2K installs in that time (you'd need half an hour on the reboots alone!).

Partitioning/Formating/Installing from a script does not an installation make. Your half hour install must be a server install. A full install of SuSE can take hours, over half a day, even on a fast computer (700 Mhz). And then comes the fun part (SuSE says have fun!): configuring your printing and soundcard; most of the things that are done automatically in Windows. Software installs generally go smoothly, DLL hell now withstanding, but that is nothing compared to the deps and intricacies of installing software on Linux. Then on using Netscape, its nothing but ugly, out of the box. Then one has the issues of SSL support and browser lockups and be sure to add plenty of memory, just like Windows.

No it wasn't a server install. I installed all the desktop, Multimedia, sound and development stuff (ie GTK, sdk-devel, etc). Mostly I use it for multimedia purposes, much of the network-related stuff I didn't bother with. I'd never do a full install (6GB) because that would include thousands of things you don't want or need immediately so it was basically a default install with the extra components I thought I'd need and some unnecessary ones deselected. After the install had finished and I had booted up I tried to access the internet to d/l some custom s/w. My Cablemodem was on and I had very easily set up my (auto-recognised) PCI network card as a DHCP client (if you need to do it manually just select DHCP client in Yast -> System Administration -> Configure Network Card). I couldn't access the internet. I checked that the DHCP client was running and restarted it. Still no joy. I checked that my network module was autoloaded (it was). I checked that the network interface was up and running (yep). I even thought that the ipv6 stuff might be screwing things up. In the end after much headscratching I checked round the back of my machine and realised that I had not put the CAT cable from my CM into the jack of the NIC! As soon as I connected it, my DHCP request was fulfilled and I had a working internet connection! Stupidity like that is independent of Operating Systems.

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Installing a VMWare client for Windows 98 takes longer than installing SuSE from scratch.

So what's the point here?

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Also once you have KDE 2 installed, life can be very simple for even naive users.

I think you would find disagreement here from "naive users" as they stumble over printing, sound card, USB devices/support, setting up their dialup and then to have an upgrade that breaks their system.

Printers can be pigs on any system. On windows I know it's common for people to reinstall because they've stuffed dodgy printer drivers on and can't get back to a stable system. My only experience with Linux was 6.x where I set up an Epson with apsfilter within a couple of minutes and it worked immediately. For my 7.2 system I haven't yet set up a printer as I'm looking to buy a new one and use CUPS with it (with USB support hopefully). Sound cards should work automagically as long as they're PCI and verified in the SuSE CDB (there's a bit more piggery with ISA cards but who cares?). The only problem I had was when I converted a windows system to linux, my wacky Maestro card was not supported in the 2.2 kernel and after checking the SDB I installed the OSS as a package - then it worked. Don't know about USB yet, but the core USB modules are autoloaded on my system and that's one of the things I have on my list as a todo (mental note: requires $$$ for a USB device). Setting up a dialer in KDE involves knowing the phone number and (possibly) the IP address of the DNS. Then you give your login and password. This is no different from setting up a bespoke dialup in windows. I've used over a dozen ISPs (when I still had dialup) and *never* had to do anything other than this (no messing around with Expect sequences or anything like that). Of course the AOL'ers can put in their coasters and it will take them thru all the steps of getting an internet connection setup. The unfortunate side-effect being that viral s/w like this puts all sorts of hooks into the system which a transparent dialup wouldn't (I've had to remove AOL from friend's systems and it's not pretty). Windows users constantly use speed-tweak software and frig about the with the registry etc to try and optimise their dialups (there's a whole industry based around this). The same is true for Cablemodems. In linux it's pretty much optimal to begin with as long as PPP or simple ethernet is concerned. When I switched from Windows to linux I noticed that my pings to a favourite game server went from 270ms to around 120. This was reproducible at will on a dual-boot system (on a reasonably averaged basis). And yet I'd spent many an hour on Windows supposedly speed-tweaking my PPP dialup. Obviously I'd missed something. But then again, TCP/IP in windows always was a crock of S H I T.

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The comparisons are unfair because very few 'naive' users buy windows systems where they have to do the initial partitioning and install themselves. They nearly always buy preloaded systems with all the MS software preinstalled.

Well, you can buy Linux the same way now from Dell, Compaq, IBM and others. Linux is gaining acceptance.

I don't know about Big Blue, but those boxshifters only sell server systems for linux, FWIW. Dell recently pulled out of the desktop market. You want see many of these Linux systems being advertised in CircuitCity, mores the pity (does this sound like the basis of a rap?).

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Also bear in mind that installs from vendors like SuSE have to take the trouble to worry about what windows partition's there may be on there and offer dual-host capability. No Windows install is ever gonna concern itself with non-MS software (ie viral software in the words of BG).

Bear in mind that many dual boot solutions, other than Lilo based, were done for DOS and Windows but supported Linux as well as other "foreign" operating systems. Even Linux vendors (Caldera) bundled in "DOS/Windows" Partition Managers. To enumberate the dual boot systems out there for DOS, etc: Ranish (Freeware), BootMagic, System Commander, System Selector.... And we won't tell about all the times the errant Linux install that was suppose to preserve the Windows installation would destroyed it, only leaving behind the visable but unusable partition.

In some areas windows systems weren't even compatible with each other - ask anyone who tried to setup NTFS root partitions on dual Win9x/NT systems. Vendors like PQ produced s/w to handle multiboot systems but it was nothing done on the part of MS. The reason why dual systems worked so well is because the work was done on the Linux side to allow interoperability, eg windows partitions could be accessed natively in linux as dos, umsdos and vfat (fat32). Though I never had any problems accessing dos partitions from linux, windows could not see any of my linux partitions. The 3rd party (non-ms) boot s/w only had to be able to see the (active) partitions and then loadup the requisite boot sector to begin the real work. By their nature, boot loaders pre-empt the point where a system becomes definably 'linux' or 'windows'.

Not flaming. My home network consists of Windows98SE, RH 6.1, RH 7.0 and SuSE 7.2 Professional all running on their own boxes. Each operating system has it's place and use. I have bought 4 SuSE distros at full retail: 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 7.2 Professional and there is no doubt that it is one of if not the best distro available, especially for the "new user" even with its challenges. Somehow missed 7.1 Pro of which I would love to find a copy....

Clint

You mean you have a *use* for RedHat? ;-)

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