actually, if he was the former janitor from m$$, he would be of use as he would be that p$$$d off with all the bug rubbish created he would do all possible to make sure it didn't happen in SuSE my 2 bits scsijon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher D. Reimer" <creimer@rahul.net> To: "Steven Hatfield" <ashari@knightswood.net> Cc: "SLE" <suse-linux-e@suse.com>; "Linux Talk" <lx-talk@big7.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:59 AM Subject: [SLE] Re: SuSE CTO and President Steps Down

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It appears that SuSE is in trouble. Anyone from SuSE care to comment?

What makes you think that SuSE is in trouble? Just because someone is leaving their job after three years doesn't mean that the SuSE is in trouble. I been at my current job for three years and the thoughts of moving on to something fresher keeps coming up. If the next guy happens to be a former janitor from Microsoft, then SuSE is probably in trouble. ;)

Christopher Reimer

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I think the time has come for us to buy our favorite distro (or rather the media, handbook, and support that comes with it) to help secure its future.

M

I couldn't agree with you more! Personally, I view Linux (and all of the associated user space programs, GNU and other) as 5,000 peices of a large puzzle. Putting them together and making something that looks like a complete picture takes time, and time, as they say, is money. That's why I pay for all of my SuSE distributions (I'm on my 3rd), and have convinced many friends into doing the same. ---- I wonder what the net result of the split to two versions was. I did not like the move at the time, and I don't like it now, and here's why: Two levels of release are that much harder to maintain: you need to sets of media, two sets of manuals, retail outlets need to try to stock two different releases, and it creates a little bit of consumer confusion- what's which? Just keep tweaking the installer- right off the bat choose Personal or Pro from within a single release. It smells like the auto industry. I always thought that if all cars had power windows, then the industry would not have to keep track of any parts related to manual windows. Power window replacement parts would be cheaper due to efficiency of scale. "I need a power window motor." "Well, that's all we sell, no problem, here you go." Also, the price jumped. Personal was one price, and pro was another. Pro was expensive enough so that now I skip versions. I went from 6.4 to 7.2. Before that I had 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4. I was also in a store buying 6.4 and I noticed another shopper gazing at Red Hat, and he bought SuSE when I was through with him. I'm in the store less now. It's a tough climate, and I do what little I can. What about the middle market- not quite enterprise? I see lot's of businesses that use Windows/Exchange, but with the proper consulting, could be reliably using a Linux set-up. There, though, you're relying on the consultant to at least charge each client for one copy of SuSE per site install, even though thr consultant could buy one copy of SuSE and use it all year long for many many clients. What's in the pipes for SuSE 7.3? Also, everything has leveled- demand for high-speed, demand for hardware, etc. The phat/easy growth is over, and the Linux model is somewhat flawed because, like Napster, it fosters a "well, everything is free" mentality, when obviously, it costs somebody money to develop and produce releases. Service models like Red Hat and Compaq aren't doing all that hot either. Look at VA Linux.

On Tuesday 28 August 2001 8:22 pm, Daniel Woodard wrote:

Also, the price jumped. Personal was one price, and pro was another. Pro was expensive enough so that now I skip versions. I went from 6.4 to 7.2. Before that I had 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4. I was also in a store buying 6.4 and I noticed another shopper gazing at Red Hat, and he bought SuSE when I was through with him. I'm in the store less now.

Expensive? Pro (update) £30.00UK for 7CDs and a DVD plus 3 manuals and 60 days installation support. I don't think so! I've never seen "update" for sale here in the US, and have never tried to order it from SuSE. I like to pop in retail and just leave with it. So I buy retail Pro for $70US when I can. This list is my e-mail support, so I don't even tax them in that regard. Besides, I can install seemingly fine! It's what happens next that keeps me up at night.

What about the middle market- not quite enterprise? I see lot's of businesses that use Windows/Exchange, but with the proper consulting, could be reliably using a Linux set-up. There, though, you're relying on the consultant to at least charge each client for one copy of SuSE per site install, even though thr consultant could buy one copy of SuSE and use it all year long for many many clients.

Perhaps that's why Caldera are moving toward 'per seat' licensing.

Also, everything has leveled- demand for high-speed, demand for hardware, etc. The phat/easy growth is over, and the Linux model is somewhat flawed because, like Napster, it fosters a "well, everything is free" mentality, when obviously, it costs somebody money to develop and produce releases.

Wrong! Linux/Open Source is not about free (i.e. I don't have to pay for this) software. As Glyn Moody puts it, "it's about what we can achieve when we suspend, even for a moment, the pursuit of personal advantage". The free software moment (GNU, Linux, sendmail, Apache, XFree86, et al) started the information revolution; not Microsoft or other organisations who adopted a closed source model has achieved anything close. No, no. I agree. I meant the "popular perception" is that it's a free-for-all. I'm versed in the history, that's part of what drew me in, but now what? The world is an expensive place. Plus, all I can do is buy a distro. I will never be able to program. The "community" aspect has to merge profitably with the "mass of the population" aspect at some point.

Two levels of release are that much harder to maintain: you need to sets of media, two sets of manuals, retail outlets need to try to stock two different releases, and it creates a little bit of consumer confusion- what's which? Just keep tweaking the installer- right off the bat choose Personal or Pro from within a single release.

Its simple! It's just a part of a commercial strategy. Nobody wants a hard and long learning curve, as well as market is divided into 2, with a lot of differences between them. One market is the common user, who wants to play games, use a suite just as the M$ office or ClarisWorks, plays video, music, and not too much, and the other part goes for corporative intranets, or servers, etc, more focused on more pro stuff. Usually, ordinary user is not interested in the pro applications and use of Linux, and Pro users are not interested into games and stuff.. It is the SUSE answer, to give an operative system that they think they can have advantage of. I mean, a sort of not mixing differents attitudes. And of course, you can play Quake with Pro Edition, as well as you can run a server with Personal version... Now there is a market, if you want "Linux Domination", then you have to learn how market works, and convince everybody by using the market rules.. Its more or less as the ancient proverb: " If you want to destroy your enemy, learn from them, then find their weak points to destroy them absolutely" Apply this to no-war and to use linux, and you'll see.. (: SmiLeS :) Luz F:

In general, I think that the Linux/Open Source community is going to see some change in the next twelve months (particularly with Apple MacOS X for the PPC). How long can companies continue providing free (i.e. no charge) software vis-a-vis free (i.e. at liberty) Linux distributions? I think the time has come for us to buy our favorite distro (or rather the media, handbook, and support that comes with it) to help secure its future.

Amen to that. With one exception, I have always gone to Best Buy in the States to buy my favorite distribution. I owe it to them. I know the software is free, but they also have a nice manual and offer support. Even if I am just trying things out, I will pay for Linux. I have purchased every single version of Mandrake since they started and since I installed Suse for a client I went out and bought that too. Funny thing is, for all the distro's I have purchased (Red Hat, Mandrake, Progeny and now waiting for Suse 7.2 to arrive) I can safely say that I STILL have not spent as much money as I had to shell out for Windows 2000 Advanced Server. When you install a decent distro like Suse you have all the server components you need. No need to go and purchase Exchange Server or SQL Server or even the programming languages. They are all there. This is a serious savings for everyone. I don't use Linux because it is free I use it because it is superior in reliability and it has the same high standards I hold for myself and my projects: 0 downtime. I don't want to upset anyone by this email, but can tell you from my point of view that the companies I have worked for would welcome a $70 copy of Suse, would even pay the $200 for Red Hat instead of $4,000 for Advanced Server from MS. And think of it this way, there is still NO product activation! -Scott

You touch on a very important point. Nobody wants to spend the time knowing how the OS works in order to get their job done - they just want to start working and be productive. Nowadays, it is *much* easier to be there on Linux, so that is good, but it is nowhere near as mind-numbingly easy as it is on Windows. Some will argue that is a good thing, however, most of the planet doesn't want or care to know those details - they just want it to work. It is extra effort on my part to be able to work on a Linux platform, even for software development, but I do it because it is valuable in other ways. On Tuesday 28 August 2001 05:10 pm, Daniel Woodard wrote:

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And think of it this way, there is still NO product activation!

I hope Activation has some sort of effect on somebody- read Corporate IS. I won't go near the thing, sticking with W2k forever it looks like (on the Windows side, I also use MacOS as well- each machine it's task).

One thing though, the fatal flaw is Linux on workstations. I've been dorking around with linux for years now, and I still think it's quite hard to do a lot configuration stuff. I could not get my partner to suffer the same learning curve, so I'm the lone Linux guy here.

My primary job is video/graphics/multimedia production and I feel like, even by using Linux on our servers, I'm an exception to the rule. Other people in my position would never go through what I went through to get even "sort of" proficient at Linux.

If you live and breath sys admin, then of course it's easy. If it's the 7th of 10 (time consuming) hats you wear, Linux can be very hard to use. I still "break" things and then have a really hard time getting it to work again. Lib this, permission that, missing this, on and on. Yeah, I love the power, but for me it's an extended hobby/passion of love thing. Like I said, others in my shoes would never go through the learning curve and would opt for a Mac server, or a Windows server.

Example: I bought Cold Fusion 5 and Generator DE for Linux. PHP is hard for me, and while I continue to dick around with it, I'm more productive in CF. Well, CF is very very very easy to install on SuSE. I never did get Generator to install on the same server. I spent days, I recompiled Apache, messed with java implementaion (way over my head) and ended up with no working Generator DE server, and I was worn out. Now Generator is on W2k sitting next to my SuSE/Cold Fusion server. The windows install was a breeze.

OK, I was 1 for 2 there- CF on Linux, Generator on W2k.

Yeah, they could write better installers or whatever, but still, the real world here.

I think most of us are already buying the product. Most of us are not d/l'ing freebie versions. Certainly not those of us who are using it commercially. If the price becomes something in the order of Windows, then I suspect that Linux (except for servers) will disappear. --dm At 20:47 08/28/2001 +0000, Martin Webster wrote:

On Tuesday 28 August 2001 6:44 pm, Steven Hatfield wrote:

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http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/08/28/1422230mode=thread http://www.suse.com/us/suse/news/PressReleases/hohndel.html

It appears that SuSE is in trouble. Anyone from SuSE care to comment?

It's true that SuSE has been downsizing over the past 12 months or so. But this is essentially a 10% reduction in administrative staff; I don't see Dyroff's departure is necessarily anything to do with their restructuring programme though.

SuSE is arguably the World's most popular distribution today. However, SuSE has been more successful in the retail sector and is very popular as a workstation solution. For SuSE to maintain its success they need to make inroads in the corporate sector, i.e. enterprise computing. No doubt there will be new developments in the service area in the near future. That's why I'm not that surprised to see their finance director taking the helm.

In general, I think that the Linux/Open Source community is going to see some change in the next twelve months (particularly with Apple MacOS X for the PPC). How long can companies continue providing free (i.e. no charge) software vis-a-vis free (i.e. at liberty) Linux distributions? I think the time has come for us to buy our favorite distro (or rather the media, handbook, and support that comes with it) to help secure its future.

M