RE: [opensuse] [OT] spreadsheet data exchange format?
-----Original Message----- From: Bryen [mailto:suseROCKS@bryen.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:19 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] [OT] spreadsheet data exchange format? On Tue, 2007-12-11 at 17:47 -0500, BandiPat wrote:
On Tuesday 11 December 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Tuesday 2007-12-11 at 09:34 -0600, Bryen wrote:
A couple of months later, she called me complaining that OpenOffice was too cumbersome and her daughter was complaining that she didn't understand it because everything she learned in her elementary school computer class taught MS Word. We had a little bit of a heated discussion, and I told her that a) she can't afford MS Office anyway and
That argument doesn't hold in some places, unfortunately. People here are convinced Windows is free, as in beer, and if it doesn't come included free, you just get a "pirate" copy from anybody. In the end, free.
I simply can not convince anybody here to use linux or even OOo with the price argument, I loose. Windows software is free. And, if you are in a business, the boss pays, and as the boss is by definition always rich, so it is of no consequence, it is free. And you can borrow a copy for home, too.
:-(
The rest of the possible arguments are then moot. It is more difficult, it doesn't have all the whistles, it is not serious, it is not compatible (!), etc. The best argument in my armory, freedom and zero license cost being useless to them, the rest is moot.
(Don't argue with me, I'm all for OOo... the problem is "them")
You guys are all missing the point of my anecdote since Carlos snipped out the last part of my original posting. In the end, while my friend disagreed with me that she would ever have to use OpenOffice, one year later, her employer mandated that she and everyone else in her company use OpenOffice. So, the "resistance is futile" quip that Carlos always refers to is quite relevant here. Resistance to OpenOffice is futile. :-) ~~~~~~~ Just wanted add my own experience with OO 2.x. Although I was able to get most of my users to use it, anyone who used the Writer and Impress (which doesn't) for anything with special page details and imbedded graphics were sorely disappointed. Even after saving the document or presentation in any MS format, all the formatting was lost or scrambled when opened in MS Word and/or PowerPoint. In order for OO to be useable for everyone and, hopefully, displace the MS equivalents, OO will need to save in a way that anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty opening and viewing the content. For better or worse, MS is the standard that the corporate user knows and uses as the measuring stick. Once OO can accomplish that, all my users will switch to it. Just my observation. Not trying to start a flame war. Kind regards, ~James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2007-12-11 at 15:57 -0800, James D. Parra wrote:
Just wanted add my own experience with OO 2.x. Although I was able to get most of my users to use it, anyone who used the Writer and Impress (which doesn't) for anything with special page details and imbedded graphics were sorely disappointed. Even after saving the document or presentation in any MS format, all the formatting was lost or scrambled when opened in MS Word and/or PowerPoint.
In order for OO to be useable for everyone and, hopefully, displace the MS equivalents, OO will need to save in a way that anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty opening and viewing the content. For better or worse, MS is the standard that the corporate user knows and uses as the measuring stick. Once OO can accomplish that, all my users will switch to it.
Just my observation. Not trying to start a flame war.
Kind regards,
~James
I have found this problem in the past too when using ooo from openoffice.org. However, I found most, if not all, of these problems went away when I used the Novell version of ooo. Then the formatting problems went away. Even the Windows version. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-12-11 at 15:57 -0800, James D. Parra wrote:
Just wanted add my own experience with OO 2.x. Although I was able to get most of my users to use it, anyone who used the Writer and Impress (which doesn't) for anything with special page details and imbedded graphics were sorely disappointed. Even after saving the document or presentation in any MS format, all the formatting was lost or scrambled when opened in MS Word and/or PowerPoint.
In order for OO to be useable for everyone and, hopefully, displace the MS equivalents, OO will need to save in a way that anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty opening and viewing the content. For better or worse, MS is the standard that the corporate user knows and uses as the measuring stick. Once OO can accomplish that, all my users will switch to it.
Just my observation. Not trying to start a flame war.
No, you are right. I can choose to use OOo, and I do, but I recognize that those incompatibilities are a big obstacle for adoption. OOo needs not only be good, but better than the other; not being able to open documents and render them absolutely the same than MS O... that doesn't win adepts, no matter what the reasons are. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHXzALtTMYHG2NR9URAmaNAJwOhhjceyRBYLELirYwJpGJcTWj7ACfdTMc 5hDsWVyjbG7Dkak32YVjU7M= =WcGM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James D. Parra wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Bryen [mailto:suseROCKS@bryen.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:19 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] [OT] spreadsheet data exchange format?
On Tue, 2007-12-11 at 17:47 -0500, BandiPat wrote:
On Tuesday 11 December 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Tuesday 2007-12-11 at 09:34 -0600, Bryen wrote:
<snip>
Just wanted add my own experience with OO 2.x. Although I was able to get most of my users to use it, anyone who used the Writer and Impress (which doesn't) for anything with special page details and imbedded graphics were sorely disappointed. Even after saving the document or presentation in any MS format, all the formatting was lost or scrambled when opened in MS Word and/or PowerPoint.
In order for OO to be useable for everyone and, hopefully, displace the MS equivalents, OO will need to save in a way that anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty opening and viewing the content. For better or worse, MS is the standard that the corporate user knows and uses as the measuring stick. Once OO can accomplish that, all my users will switch to it.
Just my observation. Not trying to start a flame war.
IIRC that this was more than a bit of a problem between different versions of M$ Office Products, ("if M$ cannot get it right what hope for oo" could be an argument here, but I think an attempt to create a market for upgrades was a more likely reason for the issue ) .. I do not think this is specifically an openOffice problem, but something inherent in the way M$ work on this. Is not the Open Document specification business an attempt to get away from the pure bloody murder of trying to find a lowest common denominator between different applications (or versions of an application) so two (or more) people can exchange a usable document? (And are not M$ are trying very hard to put a very large spanner into this process because it may give application suites like openOffice a level playing field to operate on.... ) Not flaming a further observation.. honest guv :-)
Kind regards,
~James
- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHX8FSasN0sSnLmgIRAsYlAKCXHhZFrqD9L7+iVrakIKDOqcgxiACgw0F2 0Hc4N9zcwYbEv2idQeKMCpc= =roq4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 11:09 -0000, G T Smith wrote: ...
IIRC that this was more than a bit of a problem between different versions of M$ Office Products, ("if M$ cannot get it right what hope for oo" could be an argument here, but I think an attempt to create a market for upgrades was a more likely reason for the issue ) .. I do not think this is specifically an openOffice problem, but something inherent in the way M$ work on this.
Is not the Open Document specification business an attempt to get away from the pure bloody murder of trying to find a lowest common denominator between different applications (or versions of an application) so two (or more) people can exchange a usable document?
(And are not M$ are trying very hard to put a very large spanner into this process because it may give application suites like openOffice a level playing field to operate on.... )
Not flaming a further observation.. honest guv :-)
:-) However, regardless of the causes, the fact is that people used to Microsoft office simply will not use OOo while a document created by them or their friends and colleagues doesn't open exactly "right". I know it is so, because that's what they tell me when I try to convince somebody to switch. An anecdote. I took recently a course on a school. They had OOo in the computers, with windows. Some of these computers also had office, but not all. Later I learned that the school installed OOo only, but the students installed themselves bootlegged copies of office, because they did not like OOo. Even the teachers gave us documents written in Word that did not open right in OOo! They also use and teach linux there. I myself used linux during the course, but I was almost the only one. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHX8yitTMYHG2NR9URAmyDAJ4hv9vOgwlowEfUPN9AU6XWqupDYwCfYn/P gpD0Pmu6j+hDhx7Ueg58zOA= =6B+Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 11:09 -0000, G T Smith wrote:
...
IIRC that this was more than a bit of a problem between different versions of M$ Office Products, ("if M$ cannot get it right what hope for oo" could be an argument here, but I think an attempt to create a market for upgrades was a more likely reason for the issue ) .. I do not think this is specifically an openOffice problem, but something inherent in the way M$ work on this.
Is not the Open Document specification business an attempt to get away from the pure bloody murder of trying to find a lowest common denominator between different applications (or versions of an application) so two (or more) people can exchange a usable document?
(And are not M$ are trying very hard to put a very large spanner into this process because it may give application suites like openOffice a level playing field to operate on.... )
Not flaming a further observation.. honest guv :-)
:-)
However, regardless of the causes, the fact is that people used to Microsoft office simply will not use OOo while a document created by them or their friends and colleagues doesn't open exactly "right".
I know it is so, because that's what they tell me when I try to convince somebody to switch.
An anecdote.
I took recently a course on a school. They had OOo in the computers, with windows. Some of these computers also had office, but not all. Later I learned that the school installed OOo only, but the students installed themselves bootlegged copies of office, because they did not like OOo.
Even the teachers gave us documents written in Word that did not open right in OOo!
They also use and teach linux there. I myself used linux during the course, but I was almost the only one. From the sound of it, the problem is not that they run Linux per se, but that they don't have enough sys. admins or they've recruited the wrong people. It's not reasonable to expect teachers to maintain their own systems or resolve any and all IT problems they have. Either they should be teaching or part of their role should explicitly be sys. admin, but only if they have the relevant skills.
Training could be an option, but again the right people need to be sent and using the skills learnt needs to be an explicit part of their job with sufficient hours allocated to it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 15:22 -0000, Russell Jones wrote:
An anecdote.
I took recently a course on a school. They had OOo in the computers, with windows. Some of these computers also had office, but not all. Later I learned that the school installed OOo only, but the students installed themselves bootlegged copies of office, because they did not like OOo.
Even the teachers gave us documents written in Word that did not open right in OOo!
They also use and teach linux there. I myself used linux during the course, but I was almost the only one.
From the sound of it, the problem is not that they run Linux per se, but that they don't have enough sys. admins or they've recruited the wrong people. It's not reasonable to expect teachers to maintain their own systems or resolve any and all IT problems they have. Either they should be teaching or part of their role should explicitly be sys. admin, but only if they have the relevant skills.
Training could be an option, but again the right people need to be sent and using the skills learnt needs to be an explicit part of their job with sufficient hours allocated to it.
No, in this school, being a technical school, they do have the skills. They may not have enough time, though. The problem they have is that although they expect students to use OOo, they don't force it, nor do they purge the computers of illegal software - which would be a very difficult task as the students are of the hacker/cracker type :-P I saw a group of students plant spy software on their girlfriends to find out how faithful they are... Or planning to catch another student in a big lie: she was saying she passed the university entry exam top of the list, when she had failed. They snatched her password to get that info and publish it... Do you think the teachers could really keep those computers free of bootlegged software? They don't have enough eyes :-P If you are thinking of the other anecdote I told, of the school where my friend was pushed to admin without real training, yes, you are absolutely right. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHYErDtTMYHG2NR9URAqvKAJ9VaEJUncCrTxYu/mvXgKgZLO2a9QCcDYES JcY5RT0wnh29YWLC9kBj7UA= =EyXz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 11:09 -0000, G T Smith wrote:
...
IIRC that this was more than a bit of a problem between different versions of M$ Office Products, ("if M$ cannot get it right what hope
<snip>
Is not the Open Document specification business an attempt to get away from the pure bloody murder of trying to find a lowest common denominator between different applications (or versions of an application) so two (or more) people can exchange a usable document?
<snip>
However, regardless of the causes, the fact is that people used to Microsoft office simply will not use OOo while a document created by them or their friends and colleagues doesn't open exactly "right".
I know it is so, because that's what they tell me when I try to convince somebody to switch.
I understand M$ in their collective wisdom have already extensively revamped the interface in the lasted version of Office, to the irritation of many business users (more training costs) and users (where has everything gone?).... I think is possibly more accurate to say, that most of the user community when faced with the choice of something complex that they have kind of got know how to work and something complex which they do not know how to work, will not admit that the complexity puts them off the change (i.e say "I am not able to do this"), and are not going point something else (i.e say "This application cannot do this")... Even if the formatting was perfect something else would be found to be at fault for them... I do rather think that by attempting to outdo M$ with features we do miss a point (I think this covers more than OO). Offer users something (apparently) simple to use that does the job (write a letter, a document, or whatever) that does not look as if your taking a space shuttle out on a jaunt with a talking paperclip when all you want to do is write something... KISS (keep it simple stupid) has a lot going for it for a lot of people. OK all the features can be there but they do not have to be in the users face at the beginning. <snip>
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHYAfbasN0sSnLmgIRAjlLAKDOPgShiALUtZhjL4I1j8w6jyd41gCg0+Kg +jXEHuPRxVx8jiNK/X2y1GM= =qkWz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 16:10 -0000, G T Smith wrote:
I know it is so, because that's what they tell me when I try to convince somebody to switch.
...
I understand M$ in their collective wisdom have already extensively revamped the interface in the lasted version of Office, to the irritation of many business users (more training costs) and users (where has everything gone?)....
Didn't know that. ...
I do rather think that by attempting to outdo M$ with features we do miss a point (I think this covers more than OO). Offer users something (apparently) simple to use that does the job (write a letter, a document, or whatever) that does not look as if your taking a space shuttle out on a jaunt with a talking paperclip when all you want to do is write something... KISS (keep it simple stupid) has a lot going for it for a lot of people. OK all the features can be there but they do not have to be in the users face at the beginning.
Yes, for many users that's more than enough. Others want to see the same as "the other". I prefer OOo, even if sometimes I can't convince it to do what I want. For instance, I have trouble placing photos exactly where I want in the text, without them getting to the next page, overlapping another photo, or many other weirdos. LyX got it right, but it has other problems. Sigh... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHYGemtTMYHG2NR9URAsUnAJwNu43siiW83d2+9aBaVpuhOVEY6gCfbdnK Hs4uNuilFtnE6B9gSsSEvF4= =5E4f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, December 12, 2007 12:57 am, James D. Parra wrote:
In order for OO to be useable for everyone and, hopefully, displace the MS equivalents, OO will need to save in a way that anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty opening and viewing the content.
but such a way, by DEFINITION, cannot be anything else than a file format that Microsoft does not and cannot control and change every time the OO filters reach such a quality that "anyone who uses MS will not have any difficulty". That is, OpenDocument. I'm not saying that making politicians and people in the street understand this is easy, but it is simply not realistic to believe that this problem can be solved for good in any other way than demanding OpenDocument support in MS Office (either directly, as MS customers, or asking our governments to not deploy software which doesn't support OpenDocument). A few related articles of mine: Everybody's Guide to OpenDocument www.linuxjournal.com/article/8616 Just Say No to OpenXML www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 Economics Researchers Meet OpenDocument www.linuxjournal.com/article/8727 How much do we all pay for software? http://digifreedom.net/node/45 Marco -- Your own civil rights and the quality of your own life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you: http://digifreedom.net/node/84 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
G T Smith -
James D. Parra -
M. Fioretti -
Russell Jones