[SLE] Zmd/zen crap and rant

Doug Currey

4 Jun 2006 4 Jun '06

03:37

This is really getting old. First you can't update because of this ZMD crap and yes it is crap. Now after a test patch applied my drive is running constantly. System is slow as hell. Don't know if its truely related be that was the last thing I did before noticing this. Here is output of top. As you can see its also eating mem and CPU up. How do I get this ZMD stopped it errors out if I rczmd stop. Killing the process it just restarts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tasks: 103 total, 2 running, 101 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie Cpu(s): 89.7% us, 3.0% sy, 0.0% ni, 0.0% id, 6.3% wa, 0.7% hi, 0.3% si Mem: 256736k total, 252500k used, 4236k free, 1800k buffers Swap: 1052216k total, 253864k used, 798352k free, 52684k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND 31639 root 18 0 234m 135m 2264 R 91.2 54.0 3:59.28 update-status 27986 root 15 0 87692 7820 2020 S 1.0 3.0 1:29.66 X 31762 root 16 0 2188 1020 760 R 0.3 0.4 0:00.05 top ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Was this not tested how could such a screwup make it into the final copy? Is Novell trying to get people to use Windows? I think we need 10.11 version released before anything even starts with 10.2. Preferable with the old method of doing updates. 10.1 should never have been released clearly it wasn't ready. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

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Carl Hartung

4 Jun 4 Jun

05:35

On Saturday 03 June 2006 23:37, Doug Currey wrote:

...

... Now after a test patch applied my drive is running constantly. System is slow as hell. Don't know if its truely related be that was the last thing I did before noticing this.

Hi Doug, Have you considered adding some memory to your system? It's slow because of the swapping. Really. I'm running 512MB and, yes, the process drags on a bit at the start here but no swapping. I'm certainly able to use the machine. regards, Carl P.S.: If you've followed the threads on the expanded package management and updating systems difficulties, you know they are already being heavily looked at and are most likely already fixed... or really quite close. I started out with similar problems but I'm set up current here now and it all seems to be working fine. Hope that helps your outlook on things. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Joe Morris (NTM)

07:05

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

Have you considered adding some memory to your system? It's slow because of the swapping. Really. I'm running 512MB and, yes, the process drags on a bit at the start here but no swapping. I'm certainly able to use the machine.

...

P.S.: If you've followed the threads on the expanded package management and updating systems difficulties, you know they are already being heavily looked at and are most likely already fixed... or really quite close. I started out with similar problems but I'm set up current here now and it all seems to be working fine. Hope that helps your outlook on things. Do you leave your machine always on, or boot/shutdown when not in use? Just curious. I am at the point of trying my one update only source and

I'm not sure about his machine, but I have 2GB of Ram, and it does not appear zmd is too heavy on memory but on CPU. It pegs my 3.2 GHz AMD64 for approx 15 minutes EVERY time I boot and login. I am thinking of reducing the sources to ONLY one update source (kind of like Suse watcher, the suse/updates/10.1 tree) to see if that is more acceptable. I am running the latest test, and though it is working much better, the 0% idle CPU on this machine after booting/login in for approx 15 minutes, which heats up the CPU quite a bit, is just not worth it to me. It is the CPU intensity, not memory, that causes me the most concern. then, since I can no longer use YAST for the other package sources since they are tied together, use either smart or apt for everything else. To me, security updates are in a totally different class than a new version of ($name) program. I do not need to know about any other programs via an always running update program. I can update those when I need to or want to check to see what is available. BUT, when a security fix is out, I want to know and install ASAP. For my needs, SuSEwatcher worked very well. Maybe I can work this out, but it is a bit disappointing. I went from 9.3 to 10.1 mostly expecting the changes that took place in 10 (SuSE/openSUSE) to be worked out. I am still hoping this will be resolved to work better than what we lost, but so far Yast had worked so well in 9.3, with the sources I added, I didn't need to use apt. Even my locally built packages were installable via YAST. It is still possible but more hassle. It has been 5 minutes since I clicked on the updater icon, it is still at getting update list, and clicking on the configuration button, which is still loading services. So slow... -- Joe Morris Registered Linux user 231871 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Carl Hartung

13:24

On Sunday 04 June 2006 03:05, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

...

I'm not sure about his machine, but I have 2GB of Ram, and it does not appear zmd is too heavy on memory but on CPU. It pegs my 3.2 GHz AMD64 for approx 15 minutes EVERY time I boot and login.

Hi Joe, I'm definitely not seeing this behavior. It /does/ take a while to initialize... several minutes, for example, when I click the icon... but the processes launched seem to 'jockey' in 'top' between the low teens and maybe 93% dpu but the desktop remains extremely usable. I'm wondering if you're experiencing a combination of the new system, 'updatedb' (find/sort) and beagle indexing ?

...

Do you leave your machine always on, or boot/shutdown when not in use?

I usually leave the system running, unless I'm booting to 9.3 and 10.0 to update them... about once a week. Then, or during really inclement weather (thunderstorms or heavy snow.) regards, Carl -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Joe Morris (NTM)

14:59

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

It /does/ take a while to initialize... several minutes, for example, when I click the icon... but the processes launched seem to 'jockey' in 'top' between the low teens and maybe 93% dpu but the desktop remains extremely usable. Interesting. Earlier I was IM'ed by my kids just after logging in and sound was spastic because of the load. I'm wondering if you're experiencing a combination of the new system, 'updatedb' (find/sort) and beagle indexing ?

Definitely not. I have sat there and watched top. It is parse-matadata, gpg (which is usually hardest on cpu), update-status, and zmd, and zen-updater. I removed all sources except one for updates. It brought it down to a more manageable 2 minutes after a boot, but of course means I cannot use yast for package management. I tried just adding the DVD source and it went up to approx 4.5 minutes, so I removed it again. I use ksensors and can see in cpu temp when that "system" is running.

...

...
Do you leave your machine always on, or boot/shutdown when not in use?

I usually leave the system running, unless I'm booting to 9.3 and 10.0 to update them... about once a week. Then, or during really inclement weather (thunderstorms or heavy snow.)

Perhaps that makes the problems seem worse for me, as it is hot here (I am in the Philippines), and cooking my CPU at every boot is not what I would choose for my package management system, and hasn't been since yast1 back in 6.2 til now. I used to use apt a lot, til 9.3 where I still had apt installed but could use Yast for everything. Now to have the updater cause minimal problems at boot or click, I will just run with one update source, and use smart or apt/synaptic for package management. Thanks for the info on your system to try to figure out if it is a local problem or not. -- Joe Morris Registered Linux user 231871 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Patrik Dahl

14:57

I have similar problems with a AMD64 3000+ Desktop (Running 32-bit OpenSuSE 10.1) with 2GB of memory, every time I start my computer CPU goes through the roof for 5-10 minutes... //PDa Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

...

Carl Hartung wrote:

...
Have you considered adding some memory to your system? It's slow because of the swapping. Really. I'm running 512MB and, yes, the process drags on a bit at the start here but no swapping. I'm certainly able to use the machine.

I'm not sure about his machine, but I have 2GB of Ram, and it does not appear zmd is too heavy on memory but on CPU. It pegs my 3.2 GHz AMD64 for approx 15 minutes EVERY time I boot and login. I am thinking of reducing the sources to ONLY one update source (kind of like Suse watcher, the suse/updates/10.1 tree) to see if that is more acceptable. I am running the latest test, and though it is working much better, the 0% idle CPU on this machine after booting/login in for approx 15 minutes, which heats up the CPU quite a bit, is just not worth it to me. It is the CPU intensity, not memory, that causes me the most concern.

...
P.S.: If you've followed the threads on the expanded package management and updating systems difficulties, you know they are already being heavily looked at and are most likely already fixed... or really quite close. I started out with similar problems but I'm set up current here now and it all seems to be working fine. Hope that helps your outlook on things.

Do you leave your machine always on, or boot/shutdown when not in use? Just curious. I am at the point of trying my one update only source and then, since I can no longer use YAST for the other package sources since they are tied together, use either smart or apt for everything else. To me, security updates are in a totally different class than a new version of ($name) program. I do not need to know about any other programs via an always running update program. I can update those when I need to or want to check to see what is available. BUT, when a security fix is out, I want to know and install ASAP. For my needs, SuSEwatcher worked very well. Maybe I can work this out, but it is a bit disappointing. I went from 9.3 to 10.1 mostly expecting the changes that took place in 10 (SuSE/openSUSE) to be worked out. I am still hoping this will be resolved to work better than what we lost, but so far Yast had worked so well in 9.3, with the sources I added, I didn't need to use apt. Even my locally built packages were installable via YAST. It is still possible but more hassle. It has been 5 minutes since I clicked on the updater icon, it is still at getting update list, and clicking on the configuration button, which is still loading services. So slow...

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Doug Currey

15:35

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 01:35:03 -0400, Carl Hartung wrote

...

Hi Doug,

Have you considered adding some memory to your system? It's slow because of the swapping. Really. I'm running 512MB and, yes, the process drags on a bit at the start here but no swapping. I'm certainly able to use the machine.

After a reboot I did manage to kill the update process and it allowed me to shut zmd down. Now things are running smoothly again. Minus the ability to patch.

...

P.S.: If you've followed the threads on the expanded package management and updating systems difficulties, you know they are already being heavily looked at and are most likely already fixed... or really quite close. I started out with similar problems but I'm set up current here now and it all seems to be working fine. Hope that helps your outlook on things.

Yes I am aware of this. The wild cpu and drive activity didn't start until I tried the test patches. All seemed fine the installed and did some update after completing. A few hours later I noticed the weird behavior. Since it was 24 hours since my last reboot I ignored it figuring it was just doing normal updates/checks/cronjobs. Come back 5 hours later and things slow as hell. I would have to type and wait for computer to catch up. Then it would get a little better still high cpu usage then a few minutes later return to almost useless. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

suse＠rio.vg

18:12

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

P.S.: If you've followed the threads on the expanded package management and updating systems difficulties, you know they are already being heavily looked at and are most likely already fixed... or really quite close. I started out with similar problems but I'm set up current here now and it all seems to be working fine. Hope that helps your outlook on things.

The issue of zmd completely throttling your whole machine every time you boot/login/check for updates has not been fixed. And from the way the developers have posted here and elsewhere, it sounds much more like "We hope to make the next release faster", not "We'll have something next week." I recommend the removal of zen/rug. Use yum or apt, and put one of them in a daily cron to check for updates and send you an e-mail if any are found. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Carl Hartung

18:44

On Sunday 04 June 2006 14:12, suse@rio.vg wrote:

...

The issue of zmd completely throttling your whole machine every time you boot/login/check for updates has not been fixed.

Who is "your" and "you"? Clearly this is not *everybody's* experience. The effects seem to range from serious to only mildly annoying and are different from system to system. No one says it isn't buggy, but to infer it is "throttling" everybody's machine is just plain wrong.

...

And from the way the developers have posted here and elsewhere, it sounds much more like "We hope to make the next release faster", not "We'll have something next week."

Sorry, I excelled in reading comprehension at school and I've got a formidable vocabulary if you provoke it enough. I didn't interpret AJ's posts that way and I suggest you read them again.

...

I recommend the removal of zen/rug. Use yum or apt, and put one of them in a daily cron to check for updates and send you an e-mail if any are found.

You really ought to tack at least *one* disclamer/caveat: YMMV maybe? Carl -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

suse＠rio.vg

19:11

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

On Sunday 04 June 2006 14:12, suse@rio.vg wrote:

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The issue of zmd completely throttling your whole machine every time you boot/login/check for updates has not been fixed.

Who is "your" and "you"? Clearly this is not *everybody's* experience. The effects seem to range from serious to only mildly annoying and are different from system to system. No one says it isn't buggy, but to infer it is "throttling" everybody's machine is just plain wrong.

I've seen it reported here many times. I've installed it on three different machines which all exhibited the same behavior... In fact, I haven't seen anyone mentioned that it _doesn't_ throttle their machine every time they login to a KDE session with zen-updater running. The _only_ people that don't seem to be having the issue are those that leave their machines on 24/7 already logged in. For them, the wrenching update process is done in the dead of night. For everyone else, it's at login. And if you login and logout, it happens again. Joy.

...

...
And from the way the developers have posted here and elsewhere, it sounds much more like "We hope to make the next release faster", not "We'll have something next week."

Sorry, I excelled in reading comprehension at school and I've got a formidable vocabulary if you provoke it enough. I didn't interpret AJ's posts that way and I suggest you read them again.

I'm sure your schoolteachers are happy with you, but I've seen no hurry in developer postings about this. I read the thread on the opensuse-factory and opensuse.org pages. As I recall, the speed is talked about as a "usability issue" that is "complex" and to be addressed "in the future". It smells like sometime in the next version, not next week.

...

...
I recommend the removal of zen/rug. Use yum or apt, and put one of them in a daily cron to check for updates and send you an e-mail if any are found.

You really ought to tack at least *one* disclamer/caveat: YMMV maybe?

Why? I've had enough of this and I refuse to mince words to satisfy egoes. Frankly, all I care about is having a good and robust system. rug/zen does not provide this, nor has anyone given a compelling concrete reason why it was forced into 10.1 given it's horrid performance. It does one thing better, but breaks others and is dead last in performance. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Greg Wallace

20:01

On Sunday, June 04, 2006 @ 2:11 PM, suse@rio wrote:

...

Carl Hartung wrote:

...
On Sunday 04 June 2006 14:12, suse@rio.vg wrote:

...
The issue of zmd completely throttling your whole machine every time you boot/login/check for updates has not been fixed.

Who is "your" and "you"? Clearly this is not *everybody's* experience. The effects seem to range from serious to only mildly annoying and are different from system to system. No one says it isn't buggy, but to infer it is "throttling" everybody's machine is just plain wrong.

...

I've seen it reported here many times. I've installed it on three different machines which all exhibited the same behavior... In fact, I haven't seen anyone mentioned that it _doesn't_ throttle their machine every time they login to a KDE session with zen-updater running.

...

The _only_ people that don't seem to be having the issue are those that leave their machines on 24/7 already logged in. For them, the wrenching update process is done in the dead of night. For everyone else, it's at login. And if you login and logout, it happens again. Joy.

...

...
...
And from the way the developers have posted here and elsewhere, it sounds much more like "We hope to make the next release faster", not "We'll have something next week."

Sorry, I excelled in reading comprehension at school and I've got a

I boot my system up daily. I have not removed any of the Zen, rug, etc. packages. I notice no impact whatsoever on my response time after startup/log in. Admittedly, my installation is pretty basic, so maybe it's a case of what software you happen to have installed(?). formidable

...

...
vocabulary if you provoke it enough. I didn't interpret AJ's posts that way and I suggest you read them again.

...

I'm sure your schoolteachers are happy with you, but I've seen no hurry in developer postings about this. I read the thread on the opensuse-factory and opensuse.org pages. As I recall, the speed is talked about as a "usability issue" that is "complex" and to be addressed "in the future". It smells like sometime in the next version, not next week.

...

...
...
I recommend the removal of zen/rug. Use yum or apt, and put one of them in a daily cron to check for updates and send you an e-mail if any are found.

You really ought to tack at least *one* disclamer/caveat: YMMV maybe?

...

Why? I've had enough of this and I refuse to mince words to satisfy egoes. Frankly, all I care about is having a good and robust system. rug/zen does not provide this, nor has anyone given a compelling concrete reason why it was forced into 10.1 given it's horrid performance. It does one thing better, but breaks others and is dead last in performance.

Greg Wallace -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Carl Hartung

21:20

On Sunday 04 June 2006 15:11, suse@rio.vg wrote:

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I've seen it reported here many times.

So what else is new? I've already acknowledged the "effects seem to range from serious to only mildly annoying and are different from system to system. No one says it isn't buggy, but to infer it is "throttling" everybody's machine is just plain wrong." Your distorted view of the situation doesn't change the facts.

...

I've installed it on three different machines which all exhibited the same behavior...

And this proves what? Your procedure is faulty?

...

In fact, I haven't seen anyone mentioned that it _doesn't_ throttle their machine every time they login to a KDE session with zen-updater running.

You're obviously not paying attention. I've said it isn't "throttling" mine. Greg has just posted the same. There have been others, so you must not be paying close attention.

...

The _only_ people that don't seem to be having the issue are those that leave their machines on 24/7 already logged in.

You asserted this earlier. Based on what data? My system was running10.0 through last night until I booted to 10.1 early this a.m. The mild level of activity I experienced was just as I've described it previously.

...

For them, the wrenching update process is done in the dead of night.

Again, what evidence do you have to support this unfounded claim?

...

For everyone else, it's at login. And if you login and logout, it happens again. Joy.

This may be *your* experience, but it is *not* everybody's.

...

I'm sure your schoolteachers are happy with you, but I've seen no hurry in developer postings about this. I read the thread on the opensuse-factory and opensuse.org pages. As I recall, the speed is talked about as a "usability issue" that is "complex" and to be addressed "in the future". It smells like sometime in the next version, not next week.

Here's a sampling from the last +/- 24 hours. I haven't saved them all, just the ones I was interested in following up: On Friday 02 June 2006 03:45, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

We're currently pushing out an update to the package/patch management stack and I'm asking for additional testing.

On Friday 02 June 2006 08:45, Brian Blater (BBList) wrote:

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Following the above steps I was able to use the Zen Updater on two 10.1 systems. I only had one issue and that was one of the machines had packman and suser-guru listed as installation sources... The other machine worked without a hitch. ... Thanks for your work. Brian

On Friday 02 June 2006 08:55, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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Yes, this is shouldwork - please add them again and if you get the error file a bugreport at bugzilla.novell.com and attach /var/log/zmd-messages.log and /var/log/zmd-backend.log - we need to investigate why it does not work,

On Friday 02 June 2006 11:24, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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Did you restart it? If not, please create another bugreport for this,

On Friday 02 June 2006 11:46, Marcus Meissner wrote:

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We are actively working on the speed issues and on the bugs. AJ has written parts of those in an e-mail: http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-factory/2006-May/0580.html

On Saturday 03 June 2006 11:08, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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rug patches shows the patches. yast2 online_update - and zen-updater. zen-updater is just a single click after start,

Honestly, where do you get off claiming "It smells like sometime in the next version, not next week." with this kind of communication and activity under way? What a bunch of FUD! Go have a cold one and calm down!

...

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You really ought to tack at least *one* disclamer/caveat: YMMV maybe?

Why? I've had enough of this and I refuse to mince words to satisfy egoes.

So now we arrive at the truth. You're more concerned about not "satisfying egos" than contributing, objectively, to the forward momentum of the tests and eventual resolution of these problems. This is Linux. If you don't like the software, fix it! If you can't, at least have the decency to treat the developers respectfully. Carl -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

suse＠rio.vg

22:03

Carl Hartung wrote:

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*massive snip*

You seem to have a religious affiliation with SuSE. I don't. I use what works. Zen/Rug doesn't work very well. The poster of this thread complained about the same problem I was seeing. I gave him my advice. If you have a problem with that, I don't really care. You'll notice that all those posts are people who got it to simply *WORK*. i.e. the bare minimum of functionality. You'll notice that I didn't even mention that issue. The fact is that they released Zen utterly broken. They've since been patching it so that it works, but it's still a system that is less desirable than the previous and other available tools. If you disagree, that is your prerogative, go ahead and post it here. Let the reader decide.

...

...
...
You really ought to tack at least *one* disclamer/caveat: YMMV maybe? Why? I've had enough of this and I refuse to mince words to satisfy egoes.

So now we arrive at the truth. You're more concerned about not "satisfying egos" than contributing, objectively, to the forward momentum of the tests and eventual resolution of these problems.

You seem to be the one bending over backward to whitewash a disgraceful situation. My response has been objective: Zen/Rug doesn't work very well. Yum/Apt does. Use Yum or Apt. How does this, in your mind, translate into believing I have some sort of vendetta against SuSE?

...

This is Linux. If you don't like the software, fix it!

I did. I installed apt. When other people tell me they have the same issue, I give them the advice that worked for me. You know, there's another maxim in open source: Don't reinvent the wheel. There are already superior update system out there. Why deal with the problems of Zen/Rug?

...

If you can't, at least have the decency to treat the developers respectfully.

Why? I pay SuSE for a product. You see, I'm not running a desktop or some basement server. My business depends on these machines. I was under the impression that full SuSE releases were supposed to be designed for production machines, not to test things and hope they're eventually sorted out. Besides that, my responses have been respectful of their persons. I have not called them names. I haven't disparaged their ability. What I have disparaged is the disgraceful state of software update/management in SuSE 10.1 and my perception that SuSE isn't serious about fixing it. This is a major issue, and the developers seem to want to sweep it under the rug, if you'll pardon the pun. Something as important as this should be given a frontpage entry on opensuse.org, or at least one level down. Last I looked, you really had to search to get information about it. That gives the impression that they would rather the problem go away than actually fix it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they already have a high-speed beta version of it locked away in Germany. I can only go with the information I have in front of me, and it's not very pretty. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Leendert Meyer

23:37

On Monday 05 June 2006 00:03, suse@rio.vg wrote:

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my perception that SuSE isn't serious about fixing it.

My perception is quite the opposite. Cf. to e.g. "[SLE] Updated Software Management Test Repository for SUSE Linux 10.1", From: Andreas Jaeger , Date: 2006-06-02 09:45. Cheers, Leen -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Mike McMullin

23:54

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 01:37 +0200, Leendert Meyer wrote:

...

On Monday 05 June 2006 00:03, suse@rio.vg wrote:

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my perception that SuSE isn't serious about fixing it.

My perception is quite the opposite. Cf. to e.g. "[SLE] Updated Software Management Test Repository for SUSE Linux 10.1", From: Andreas Jaeger , Date: 2006-06-02 09:45.

Cheers,

I definitely agree with you Leen. I've seen serious traffic from suse.de folks who are serious about supporting 10.1 and getting this to work. Mike -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Per Jessen

5 Jun 5 Jun

19:11

suse@rio.vg wrote:

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You know, there's another maxim in open source: Don't reinvent the wheel.

Perhaps - but it still happens quite frequently. The number of scripting languages seems to be growing almost exponentially :-)

...

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If you can't, at least have the decency to treat the developers respectfully.

Why?

It's an attitude thing. If you don't treat the developers of <pick any OSS product> with decency, don't expect any decency in return.

...

I pay SuSE for a product.

Kind of - you pay for the packaging and the 90day limited support.

...

You see, I'm not running a desktop or some basement server. My business depends on these machines.

So does mine. And 10.1 isn't going on to anything mission critical for a while. That's perfectly normal, I don't like being bleeding edge in production. And I have no need either. For now, 10.1 will go on workstations and desktops, whilst production remains on a mixture of 8.2 and 9.3. There is nothing in 10.1 that is critical to my business. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

suse＠911networks.com

4 Jun 4 Jun

23:16

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

On Friday 02 June 2006 03:45, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
We're currently pushing out an update to the package/patch management stack and I'm asking for additional testing.

Isn't Andreas Jaeger one of the top bananas, and I mean this as a compliment. He is one of the person we need to thank them all for all the hard work they do and that we benefit.

...

This is Linux. If you don't like the software, fix it! If you can't, at least have the decency to treat the developers respectfully.

I am always amazed by how quick the emails can become confrontational, especially on 'non-technical' email. By non-technical I mean: cp ... ~/... I don't think that the people involved would use the same confrontational tone in a one to one verbal exchange. So please, let's have some civility on all sides. We are here on this mailing list because we use, like and support the work done by the SuSE team, which I am very grateful to. -- Thanks http://www.911networks.com When the network has to work -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

ianseeks

11:40

On Sunday 04 June 2006 04:37, Doug Currey wrote:

...

This is really getting old. First you can't update because of this ZMD crap and yes it is crap. Now after a test patch applied my drive is running constantly. System is slow as hell. Don't know if its truely related be that was the last thing I did before noticing this.

I'm with you on this one. But it should get better soon. It just seems a shame that the planning of this integration was never there. It should not have been part of the release until it was ready. Due to this new system it seems i've lost my ability to upgrade my 9.3 system as they don't seem to have released an upgrade for YaST to deal with the new format on the download sites. So its impossible for a user who is not IT literate to upgrade his system anymore. I think its an own goal by Novell. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

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11 participants

participants (11)

Carl Hartung
Doug Currey
Greg Wallace
ianseeks
Joe Morris (NTM)
Leendert Meyer
Mike McMullin
Patrik Dahl
Per Jessen
suse＠911networks.com
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