-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

I agree totally, a balanced review it is not...

Considering that dep is a SuSE user who AFAIK really likes SuSE, how is it not balanced? -Tim - - -- - - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE84TgSK37Cns9gJ0gRAp72AJ4vxGddLnL59vx0NZSlDL23SejqVQCfcmv9 Q4gqBx2iwSd9idelboMziJU= =Y5X2 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE84YuYK37Cns9gJ0gRAmCZAJ9NNOt44WLqvrr3pu14NXF5IwTCGgCfaS2m JShORK3a1FW87EbtEZ0l4Sk= =ytci -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

* Patrick (tracerb@sprintmail.com) [020513 20:51]: ::Just read it myself too and I have never seen anything so ridiculous in ::all my life! This review belongs in a joke book, not put out as a ::review! I found it difficult to believe that anyone would use the one ::or two brain cells still operative, to waste on writing such drivel. Well, DEP has had problems with SuSE since I first saw him start to visit this list. I wish he would just go find another distribution to show 'tough love' to..this has become annoying after so many years of his pulpit bitching. The thing that bothers me is that he focuses on the install (who cares..it became monkey like easy several releases ago) and he focused on KDE3 and what you could just upgrade on your current system. He neglected to mention the major changes such as /etc/rc.config to /etc/sysconfig and many..many other deep system level changes. Who gives a crap about KDE 3.0 ..it's OPTIONAL.. one could run Gnome 1.4.1 which is included as well..or blackbox. Whatever one wants to do.. It's about time we stop focusing on things that are not part of LINUX such as which Window Manager one uses...I mean there are so many who can count these days...there are like 5 ripoffs of Blackbox alone. DEP has issues..and I think those who have had good experiences ..bad experiences..whatever..should give a talkback. Debate and other such things bring about change. And most of the time change is good. Cheers! -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. -GC --=====-----=====--

don't use the "reply to" it's a spam filter mailto jfweber at bellsouth dot net w/ standard formatting please

afterthought I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

jfweber, I am sorry to write this mail to you and to the list, but please, could you write a better english? I know my english is far from perfect, but it is not my mothertongue. I have been trying to understand your emails a bit, but with no success. This do not happen with everyone else's mail, so I think it is your style which is not understandable (and not even correct I think). Praise

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Travis,

To support those voices against version 8.0, I will say that it is far from perfect. But what is it that you guys want? An A.I. install? You just want to insert the DVD, come back in 30 minutes and log in? Not hardly! Even the beloved Microsoft OSes need user interaction to get them installed, setup, and working (which is kind of a long stretch to say "working").

You seem to be missing the point. It isn't that it needs interaction, it's that it does what it is suppose to do. Generally, speaking, MS OSes install just fine - the end result ain't great, but it *is* click and drool.

The installation is going to have difficulties because every machine is different. I guarantee one could take RedHat, Mandrake, or any other distro and try to install it and get nothing but headaches. (I've done it)

Funny, I ran into way more headaches with SuSE installs then Mandrake installs. And I've actually installed Mandrake on more different types of hardware many more times.

If you really want to talk about the installation, we can do that for a while on another thread, but remember to make sure you've at least read the manual before you tried to install it. Also, if this is a laptop

That shouldn't be necessary. It didn't use to be with SuSE (the last version I've run is 7.1 - 8.0 is in the mail, however), it isn't with Mandrake, nor is it with Windows.

Next someone says what about corrupt software packages on the CDs or DVDs. Well, you could always download them yourself, install and configure them, package them back up, and burn to a CD/DVD to market your own distro of perfection. It isn't enough that you only paid upwards of $80 (US) for this complete OS with more features than the average person could ever use. I think you'd better back off of SuSE for this one too, especially since they have a 7 CD head start.

This is really silly. The majority of a distros job is not programming new software, but packaging up existing software. So if someone complains that important packages are corrupt, isn't that a very valid complaint? Honestly, however, this is something I've seen and heard about for the last three years in the SuSE community. You can't have a such a virtually non-existant beta program and hope to catch bugs. Mandrake, RedHat, Xandros, Microsoft, Apple, etc., don't all have beta programs because the get a kick out of release prerelease software (okay, maybe MS does...).

Then someone says, "Why upgrade/switch to SuSE?" I'll tell you why--to support the next version, and it's successor, and so on. Lest you forget, we're not in this to fight RedHat versus SuSE, but rather a

If the logic behind upgrade is because you should support SuSE or Mandrake or [insert company name here], that is a poor excuse for a reason to upgrade. Sure, I want to help Linux companies, but I feel much more charitable when giving money to the Salvation Army, or things like that. If distros want people to upgrade - thinking people, not click-and-drool Microsofties - then you need to provide a real reason to upgrade. Especially any company targetting the much less charitable IT industry.

scale ability, ability to change, and less expensive. If we don't help the one's with a clear direction for Linux's future in the business world (where the real support money comes from) then we'd better not complain when we have trouble getting things to work.

So when things don't work we should just say "Oh well, who cares"? Why is that? I wouldn't spend a hundred bucks on Microsoft Word, and if several key features were corrupted (really corrupted, not buggy, mind you) just say "Oh well, who cares?" I would demand action of Microsoft, so would you, and so would the media. Linux users are naive if they expect special treatment from other users and the media. As a member of the Linux media, I try hard to accentuate the positives of every product I review. However, I won't - read that again - I won't ignore a problem so that I can accomplish some great crusade against Microsoft. It isn't fair to my readers, nor myself. I would like nothing better then to see Penguins rule the world, so to speak, but ignoring problems to do so is just a case of the ends do not justify the means. -Tim - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE84YluK37Cns9gJ0gRAuamAJ44jG0tdzGecxqrFFBO8dZ7sdPd2gCeNdke og81pIbxmkvb7L5bQWICPps= =iqGZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Tor,

That's balony. My Toshiba Satellite 3000-S353 came indeed with a M$ OS. Windows ME to be precise. It came pre-installed, and the reseller hadn't [...] reader. No further applications were installed, and no operating system settings tweaked. In four months the XP rotted and fell apart like yesteryears bread left on the kitchen table... At the same time as I installed XP, I installed SuSE 7.3 alongside it. 7.3 worked beautifully,

Notice I wasn't arguing that Windows was a better product, simply stating that recent Windows installers are very easy and give you what you expect. Personally, I expect trash when Windows finishes being installed, and I can reliably report that I have gotten the same lack of quality after each install. However, it does work. I've never had a corrupted MS Paint or such out of the box - later on isn't worth discussing because it has nothing to do with this discussion (I have had virtually every Windows component break at one point or another).

and kept working, even if I fiddled with it to get the max out of it. When I got 8.0, it flew in, and everything is supported, except the winmodem ( which probably is supported with the correct driver, I just havn't cared yet :).

Same here re: Winmodem.

I really can't for the life of me say that M$ has in any way given me any relief. ( SuSE has )

I agree.

Through my line of work I come across a wide flora of Linux users. The users with least complaints have generally been Debian and SuSE users. The ones with most wireless problems are Mandrake and MacOS-X users. And the

Hmm... odd. You are probably right about Debian, but then again, only the type of people that know how to fix things can even get it installed properly. It's great once you get it going though. :-) One thing I have noticed is that SuSE and Debian users are also fiercely loyal to their distributions. Honestly, I do not see people telling folks to quit complaining about bugs on the Mandrake lists I'm on, but I see it a lot here, and somewhat on debian-user. The concept that it's bad to complain about annoying problems in a commercial product is something that I can't quite grasp.

o Select a distribution that YOU are happy with, and DONT whine

I actually have, I stay on SLE partially out of sentimentality, partly because I'm planning to try 8.0, and partly because I just need to stay informed on different distro fronts. I'm simply jumping in because I think some of the statements made here are very unfair.

Regardless of wether you have a new operating system to install, or a new gadget for your computer, you ALWAYS should read the manual, if only to become aqquainted with the specifics of the software/gadget being installed.

Perhaps you should, but people - frankly - do not. So, you should try to make things either so hard that they must read the manual, or easy enough so that they do not have to. If it's somewhere inbetween, people won't read the manual and will end up messing up.

...

This is really silly. The majority of a distros job is not programming new software, but packaging up existing software. So if someone complains that important packages are corrupt, isn't that a very valid complaint?

Oh ? What on earth do you think SuSE have been doing ? Yast is their own product. Sax is too. They have a programmer writing for the XFree86

Right. I ONLY said that is MOSTLY what they do, not all. If you looked at the amount of code in a distro, the MAJORITY of it has not been created by that distro (with the lone exception of speciality distros like OEone). Regardless of how much code is contributed to projects by a distribution, so long as it is open source code, I can buy the competing distro and still get it. The point is, when I spend $80 on Mandrake, SuSE, or RedHat, I'm spending it mostly for the packages. If I wasn't, I could just go assemble my on distro on top of Tom's Linux floppy distro. I'm not doing that for two key reasons - the setup software and the software packages.

project. They have programmers working on other projects as well. And they are selling services that require quite a lot more than to read other peoples man pages to a customer over the phone. Get a grip.

Well, that's not what we are talking about though. We are talking about distros, not services. :-)

And the corrupt package... gimp ? It's not corrupt on my disks. Gee wonder if the author of the article got a bad CD ? Shame on the CD company. But to bitch SuSE about it ? Shame on him.

Maybe. Okay, so that might not be a valid complaint. What about the rest?

The former generates a lot of noise, and too many false-positives.

The latter generates almost no noise, and a high percentage of true-negatives.

Which do you think catches more bugs ?

I think the an open beta program. Yes it has a lot of false "noise," but it also has a much better chance of finding bugs. Considering that the most popular open source projects develop in the open and not behind closed doors with limited testing says something to me. This the difference between what ESR calls the Cathedral and the Bazaar. Projects like the Linux Kernel and KDE show the Bazaar method not only works well, it works better then the Cathedral method. I would say Debian proves this also (I would say MDK does too, but I doubt you would agree with that one).

...

If distros want people to upgrade - thinking people, not click-and-drool Microsofties - then you need to provide a real reason to upgrade. Especially any company targetting the much less charitable IT industry.

SuSE has already shown in 8.0 a real reason for the upgrade. 8.0 is a transition version to something even greater :-) Prove me wrong.

I don't understand. The real reason to upgrade to 8.0 is because it is a transition to the next version? That doesn't make sense at all.

...

So when things don't work we should just say "Oh well, who cares"? Why is that? I wouldn't spend a hundred bucks on Microsoft Word, and if several key features were corrupted (really corrupted, not buggy, mind you) just say "Oh well, who cares?" I would demand action of Microsoft, so would you, and so would the media. Linux users are naive if they expect special treatment from other users and the media.

Ehm. Where is the line between "buggy" and "corrupted" ? I know that I

Buggy == Microsoft Windows, it works to the extent it can, but doesn't work very well. Corrupted == Something doesn't work as it normally should do to damage during compilation/setup/packaging/etc.

you in your ideas of what you can and cannot do, if you WOULD read the label that has been present on any and all CD cases from SuSE since at least 5.2, it reads ( on 8.0 ) "By breaking the seal you accept the exclusion of warranty." Ths, if you do not accept the exclusion of warranty, you can return your package unopened to the nearest retailer, probably for a full refund.

This makes no sense either. Sure I agree to no warantee if I open a SuSE package (or any other Linux distro). That doesn't mean I'm saying that "Since I have no warantee I promise not to complain if this thing doesn't work as advertised."

If you account yourself as a member of the Linux media, then for sure I hope for a dismemberment anytime soon. There are only a few of the

You've jumped to that conclusion only because I've taken a stance you do not like about SuSE. That does not mean I will get some kind of vendetta to attack SuSE at every move, or even if I did, that I couldn't report the 99% of topics that do not relate to SuSE just fine.

userspace on a personal crusade against M$. Most of us have only gotten fed up with their products, and have found something else that we like better. Since you like Microsoft better ( which must be the case if you dislike Linux so much, as all of the problems described in this much too long and washed out thread can be reproduced on any Linux distro, given the (in)correct hardware for each particular distro )

Waaaaiiiitttt a second here. Not only do I not like Microsoft better, I have a fairly well earned dislike for Microsoft. Disliking Microsoft however, does not mean I'm just going to walk lock-step with the Linux crowd if I disagree with something or see a problem. Further more, I'm not interested in Linux being an elitist OS. I want it to be accessable to the average person - the people that use Windows. That is why I say what I say. That is why I think that setup tools should be as easy as possible (with pro options hidden, but available with the right choices). That is why I think it is not commendable if a certain distro doesn't try to support even flaky hardware. And, that is why I think a distro deserves good, honest criticism rather then just ignoring problems out of loyality.

then why don't you just continue to use Windows ? Each too has its userbase, and its means to and end. Maybe Gates serves you better ? Who knows...

Well, that would be a silly assumption since I avoid Windows at every chance I have, I write articles geared toward enterprises looking to move to Linux, and I haven't used Windows as my primary OS for more then a year (and I've used Linux for almost four years). -Tim - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE84az2K37Cns9gJ0gRAjWOAJsEAf6eAQdouzLKtGN8TxGt012hwACePf0L L41FBgHO7NuJUnhdManaF0Y= =qWaB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tuesday 14 May 2002 21:04, Bill Sheehan wrote:

It's not God and country, it's not even the Mystical Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Water Buffalo, it's an OS. It's for fun. Solving problems is part of the fun.

-- Bill

Oh, this was so very well put! The original writer's comments likening our preference and use of Linux to that of a "war" with Microsoft was so absurd. We use an operating system for what - to wage wars with an "evil empire" like Microsoft? No! We use OSs to work - to get things done, to be productive. It's time for a reality check for some folks, I think. -- Using SuSE Linux 7.3

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Timothy R. Butler (miðvikudagur 15. maí 2002 00:33)

Hello Tor,

...

That's balony. My Toshiba Satellite 3000-S353 came indeed with a M$ OS. Windows ME to be precise. It came pre-installed, and the reseller hadn't

[...]

...

reader. No further applications were installed, and no operating system settings tweaked. In four months the XP rotted and fell apart like yesteryears bread left on the kitchen table... At the same time as I installed XP, I installed SuSE 7.3 alongside it. 7.3 worked beautifully,

Notice I wasn't arguing that Windows was a better product, simply stating that recent Windows installers are very easy and give you what you expect. Personally, I expect trash when Windows finishes being installed, and I can reliably report that I have gotten the same lack of quality after each install. However, it does work. I've never had a corrupted MS Paint or such out of the box - later on isn't worth discussing because it has nothing to do with this discussion (I have had virtually every Windows component break at one point or another).

I have had two computers in service which never could finish the w95 installer ( back in the 3.11->w95 era ),

...

and kept working, even if I fiddled with it to get the max out of it. When I got 8.0, it flew in, and everything is supported, except the winmodem ( which probably is supported with the correct driver, I just havn't cared yet :).

Same here re: Winmodem.

...

I really can't for the life of me say that M$ has in any way given me any relief. ( SuSE has )

I agree.

...

Through my line of work I come across a wide flora of Linux users. The users with least complaints have generally been Debian and SuSE users. The ones with most wireless problems are Mandrake and MacOS-X users. And the

Hmm... odd. You are probably right about Debian, but then again, only the type of people that know how to fix things can even get it installed properly. It's great once you get it going though. :-)

One thing I have noticed is that SuSE and Debian users are also fiercely loyal to their distributions. Honestly, I do not see people telling folks to quit complaining about bugs on the Mandrake lists I'm on, but I see it a lot here, and somewhat on debian-user. The concept that it's bad to complain about annoying problems in a commercial product is something that I can't quite grasp.

The difference lies in wether people complain ( with facts to support them ) and have a solution to offer ( or suggest ), or if people bitch for bitchings sake with nothing more than hearsay to support them.

...

o Select a distribution that YOU are happy with, and DONT whine

I actually have, I stay on SLE partially out of sentimentality, partly because I'm planning to try 8.0, and partly because I just need to stay informed on different distro fronts. I'm simply jumping in because I think some of the statements made here are very unfair.

The large userbase of SuSE combined with the fact that people pay for the product ( unlike f.ex. Debian or Slackware ) allways attracts a bitching loud minority. The oldtimers on this list may be a bit jumpy because of that, rather than for some affections sake for SuSE.

...

Regardless of wether you have a new operating system to install, or a new gadget for your computer, you ALWAYS should read the manual, if only to become aqquainted with the specifics of the software/gadget being installed.

Perhaps you should, but people - frankly - do not. So, you should try to make things either so hard that they must read the manual, or easy enough so that they do not have to. If it's somewhere inbetween, people won't read the manual and will end up messing up.

If people don't, they shouldn't use the product, much like if you don't study for their drivers license, they shouldn't be allowed to drive. Remember the fact that in the right situation at the right time, lack of knowledge of what you are using can have devastating consequenses. Also, think useability. If you don't read the manual, you won't know what you have.

...

...

This is really silly. The majority of a distros job is not programming new software, but packaging up existing software. So if someone complains that important packages are corrupt, isn't that a very valid complaint?

Oh ? What on earth do you think SuSE have been doing ? Yast is their own product. Sax is too. They have a programmer writing for the XFree86

Right. I ONLY said that is MOSTLY what they do, not all. If you looked at the amount of code in a distro, the MAJORITY of it has not been created by that distro (with the lone exception of speciality distros like OEone).

Regardless of how much code is contributed to projects by a distribution, so long as it is open source code, I can buy the competing distro and still get it. The point is, when I spend $80 on Mandrake, SuSE, or RedHat, I'm spending it mostly for the packages. If I wasn't, I could just go assemble my on distro on top of Tom's Linux floppy distro. I'm not doing that for two key reasons - the setup software and the software packages.

And as has been shown here, the setup software works in most cases. There are a few exceptions ( few == a small percentage of the total sold units ) where you can have: o serverely incompatible hardware or o bad CDs The same applies to any other vendor. If you compare SuSE with f.ex QNX or BeOS, you'll get a much higher percentage of failing platforms ( with the latter two ).

...

project. They have programmers working on other projects as well. And they are selling services that require quite a lot more than to read other peoples man pages to a customer over the phone. Get a grip.

Well, that's not what we are talking about though. We are talking about distros, not services. :-)

...

And the corrupt package... gimp ? It's not corrupt on my disks. Gee wonder if the author of the article got a bad CD ? Shame on the CD company. But to bitch SuSE about it ? Shame on him.

Maybe. Okay, so that might not be a valid complaint. What about the rest?

The rest works equally well for me, with the sole exception of Mozilla, which I havn't debugged yet. Fortunately, there is konqueror, netscape, netscape6, galeon and a few others to replace it ;)

...

The former generates a lot of noise, and too many false-positives.

The latter generates almost no noise, and a high percentage of true-negatives.

Which do you think catches more bugs ?

I think the an open beta program. Yes it has a lot of false "noise," but it also has a much better chance of finding bugs. Considering that the most popular open source projects develop in the open and not behind closed doors with limited testing says something to me.

Here your'e wrong. The open beta is more likely to find incompatible hardware. That is one area where SuSE are helpless anyhow, since: o You are not likely to send them your hardware o They don't have the resources to rewrite kernel portions or userspace sw One laptop I installed SuSE 8.0 on ( Presario 1200 ) is one of these incompatible beasts. All it needed was not to try to load USB. But for that to happen I had to install in expert mode. There is no way that I would have been allowed to install beta software on that machine, so I wouldn't have caught it in an open beta anyhow, and even if I had, it isn't up to SuSE to fix it, it's the kernel team ( USB maintainer ) that would get the work, and he doesn't work for SuSE...

This the difference between what ESR calls the Cathedral and the Bazaar. Projects like the Linux Kernel and KDE show the Bazaar method not only works well, it works better then the Cathedral method. I would say Debian proves this also (I would say MDK does too, but I doubt you would agree with that one).

...

...

If distros want people to upgrade - thinking people, not click-and-drool Microsofties - then you need to provide a real reason to upgrade. Especially any company targetting the much less charitable IT industry.

SuSE has already shown in 8.0 a real reason for the upgrade. 8.0 is a transition version to something even greater :-) Prove me wrong.

I don't understand. The real reason to upgrade to 8.0 is because it is a transition to the next version? That doesn't make sense at all.

Yes it does. SuSE is changing all of their system ( rc, Yast1 dead, Yast2 the future, LSB compliance, automation etc ). SuSE 8.0 can be considered a transistion phase to get you aqquainted with the new system, so further changes won't catch you off guard in 8.1. If 8.0 would have been postponed six more months, and we would get all changes to be made at once, you'd get one big unhappy userbase.

...

...

So when things don't work we should just say "Oh well, who cares"? Why is that? I wouldn't spend a hundred bucks on Microsoft Word, and if several key features were corrupted (really corrupted, not buggy, mind you) just say "Oh well, who cares?" I would demand action of Microsoft, so would you, and so would the media. Linux users are naive if they expect special treatment from other users and the media.

Ehm. Where is the line between "buggy" and "corrupted" ? I know that I

Buggy == Microsoft Windows, it works to the extent it can, but doesn't work very well.

Corrupted == Something doesn't work as it normally should do to damage during compilation/setup/packaging/etc.

Well, then 8.0 is neither. You said that your'e waiting for your 8.0 package ? Please try it before you comment on it. Otherwise your bitching is unfounded and without grounds.

...

you in your ideas of what you can and cannot do, if you WOULD read the label that has been present on any and all CD cases from SuSE since at least 5.2, it reads ( on 8.0 ) "By breaking the seal you accept the exclusion of warranty." Ths, if you do not accept the exclusion of warranty, you can return your package unopened to the nearest retailer, probably for a full refund.

This makes no sense either. Sure I agree to no warantee if I open a SuSE package (or any other Linux distro). That doesn't mean I'm saying that "Since I have no warantee I promise not to complain if this thing doesn't work as advertised."

Did they work badly for you ?

...

If you account yourself as a member of the Linux media, then for sure I hope for a dismemberment anytime soon. There are only a few of the

You've jumped to that conclusion only because I've taken a stance you do not like about SuSE. That does not mean I will get some kind of vendetta to attack SuSE at every move, or even if I did, that I couldn't report the 99% of topics that do not relate to SuSE just fine.

Actually, no. I say that because I want people to have more than hearsay to work with when complaining.

...

userspace on a personal crusade against M$. Most of us have only gotten fed up with their products, and have found something else that we like better. Since you like Microsoft better ( which must be the case if you dislike Linux so much, as all of the problems described in this much too long and washed out thread can be reproduced on any Linux distro, given the (in)correct hardware for each particular distro )

Waaaaiiiitttt a second here. Not only do I not like Microsoft better, I have a fairly well earned dislike for Microsoft. Disliking Microsoft however, does not mean I'm just going to walk lock-step with the Linux crowd if I disagree with something or see a problem.

Further more, I'm not interested in Linux being an elitist OS. I want it to be accessable to the average person - the people that use Windows. That is why I say what I say. That is why I think that setup tools should be as easy as possible (with pro options hidden, but available with the right choices). That is why I think it is not commendable if a certain distro doesn't try to support even flaky hardware. And, that is why I think a distro deserves good, honest criticism rather then just ignoring problems out of loyality.

As I don't like repeating myself ( I get aggressive when I have to :) I won't. Buy. Try. Then bitch - with concrete facts. Notice the difference.

...

then why don't you just continue to use Windows ? Each too has its userbase, and its means to and end. Maybe Gates serves you better ? Who knows...

Well, that would be a silly assumption since I avoid Windows at every chance I have, I write articles geared toward enterprises looking to move to Linux, and I haven't used Windows as my primary OS for more then a year (and I've used Linux for almost four years).

-Tim

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On Wednesday 15 May 2002 02.33, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

Notice I wasn't arguing that Windows was a better product, simply stating that recent Windows installers are very easy and give you what you expect.

Have you ever attempted to install windows - any version - on hardware where you didn't have the CD that came with the hardware? Linux - any version - is incredibly much better at installing these days. The only caveat is when you have hardware so new that they haven't had time to do a linux driver for it yet. But windows does not support hardware! Let me just repeat that for clarity: WINDOWS DOES NOT SUPPORT HARDWARE! It is supported by the driver CDs that came with the hardware. Without that you, and the hardware, is fscked!

Personally, I expect trash when Windows finishes being installed, and I can reliably report that I have gotten the same lack of quality after each install. However, it does work. I've never had a corrupted MS Paint or such

Completely irrelevant. How many times will xclock fail you after an install? Or hangman (from bsd-games.rpm)? Please compare apples with apples. If you don't get X to work then xclock won't run, that's true, but if you don't have the graphics driver CD for windows, then MS Paint won't run either. Sure, you get a basic 320x200, but you can do that in X too. My point is: linux installers at this point in time are BETTER, not equal. <rest of three-mile-mail snipped> Anders

On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 11:56, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

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Have you ever attempted to install windows - any version - on hardware where you didn't have the CD that came with the hardware? Linux - any

Yes. Windows 98, Windows 2k, and *choke* Windows XP RC 1. They worked most of the time, especially Windows 2k and XP.

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It is supported by the driver CDs that came with the hardware. Without that you, and the hardware, is fscked!

If you think that's the case, you really need to install a copy of Windows. When I say this, I am not saying it because I like Windows, just that thinking this is the case will get us no where. If you take a one or two year old PC, the type I usually am installing Linux on, and install Windows 2000 or Windows XP on it - it will most likely run without the need of ANY extra drivers.

I have tried to install NT,2K and Xp on machines that had hardware on the MS HCL and they would not work without driver CD's. I have had the install complete only to give me the BSOD upon reboot with MS drivers. You may have had better luck than me and the others that I was working with. :-)

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Completely irrelevant. How many times will xclock fail you after an install? Or hangman (from bsd-games.rpm)? Please compare apples with apples. If you don't get X to work then xclock won't run, that's true, but if you don't have the graphics driver CD for windows, then MS Paint won't run either.

I was just making a have hearted comparison. Better example - Internet Explorer has always worked when Windows finished installing (whether that is good or bad, I'll leave up to you. ;-)).

Hmmmm....Jury is out on this one.

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Sure, you get a basic 320x200, but you can do that in X too. My point is: linux installers at this point in time are BETTER, not equal.

For the most part I agree, you'll notice I was not arguing about that. I was arguing that if a piece of hardware does not work on one distro but works on the other distro, that that is a Bad Thing. (tm) This is something that was questioned a few miles back in this thread.

So true. Points of interjection. You stated about the public not wanting to read the manuals. This is true however, THEY NEED TO!!! Linux ix different than MS and the manuals are there to help the user along to at least get up to speed with Linux to at least a beginners level. If not, then they are going to get frustrated and not want to use it or bad mouth it. You want to keep comparing Linux to Windows and they are 2 different creatures! Yes if there is any problems with the distro, then let the developer know! They do not have all the anwsers either. Bugs and other issues are the reason why this group exists! So you can get help with the problem that is at hand. There are many talanted people here that will try and assisst anyone who asks nicely from newbie to power geek. I am personally glad that you found a distro that works well for you. Even though I cannot get my Voodoo 4 to work correctly, I'm still going to keep asking for help until I get it to work. Marshall Heartley A+,Network+ "Nothing is impossible, We just do not have all the anwsers yet to make the impossible possible"

-Tim

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