[opensuse] Quirks in a new v11.2 system

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[opensuse] openSUSE Weekly News...

Stan Goodman

22 May 2010 22 May '10

10:26

After installing v11.2 system and getting it working reasonably well, yesterday I installed it also on my desktop computer. The installation itself was very easy. The installed system exhibits two (so far) queer behaviors. 1) There is no Main Menu (the chameleon menu) at the left end of the panel. In its place, there is a button for the . I need this menu; the c11.2 installation in the laptop machine has it, although it is labeled "Computer", for some reason (or without reason, with no graphic). How can I get one? 2) After the new system boots, with the desktop already displayed on the screen, the mouse cursor is erratic -- more than twice out of every three boots. It is sometimes invisible, and unresponsive -- if I try to move it, it may either remain where it is or suddenly appear in another position having no connection with the direction in which I tried to move it, or the intended distance, and may then be either visible or not. Sometimes this is cured by time in some minutes, sometimes I need to reboot, but can do that only by pressing the computer's main switch (which fortunately does call up the shutdown menu). I saw such behavior sometimes in one particular installation of v10.3, but this is worse and more frequent. How can I approach this problem? -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.

22 May 22 May

12:28

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 13:26 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

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After installing v11.2 system and getting it working reasonably well, yesterday I installed it also on my desktop computer. The installation itself was very easy. The installed system exhibits two (so far) queer behaviors.

1) There is no Main Menu (the chameleon menu) at the left end of the panel. In its place, there is a button for the . I need this menu; the c11.2 installation in the laptop machine has it, although it is labeled "Computer", for some reason (or without reason, with no graphic). How can I get one?

Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

...

2) After the new system boots, with the desktop already displayed on the screen, the mouse cursor is erratic -- more than twice out of every three boots. It is sometimes invisible, and unresponsive -- if I try to move

Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

...

Sometimes this is cured by time in some minutes, sometimes I need to reboot, but can do that only by pressing the computer's main switch (which fortunately does call up the shutdown menu).

ctrl-alt-f1, then ctrl-alt-supr. --> reboot or halt, depending on how you configure it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkv3zfYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XtBACfVG0tybklUc7gSIjKDKs/vz1i OD8An2viA0iWXqlmwcrmS3c2kVjUl1Lf =gkj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

13:37

At 15:28:36 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 13:26 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

...
After installing v11.2 system and getting it working reasonably well, yesterday I installed it also on my desktop computer. The installation itself was very easy. The installed system exhibits two (so far) queer behaviors.

1) There is no Main Menu (the chameleon menu) at the left end of the panel. In its place, there is a button for the . I need this menu; the c11.2 installation in the laptop machine has it, although it is labeled "Computer", for some reason (or without reason, with no graphic). How can I get one?

Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

Not to be picky, but one would have expected a menu to be installed by default. Thanks for the advice. I will do that later, as I am now using v11.1 to save nerves.

...

...
2) After the new system boots, with the desktop already displayed on the screen, the mouse cursor is erratic -- more than twice out of every three boots. It is sometimes invisible, and unresponsive -- if I try to move

Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

I didn't, but will, thanks again, if I can luck into a sufficiently stable state to work with.

...

...
Sometimes this is cured by time in some minutes, sometimes I need to reboot, but can do that only by pressing the computer's main switch (which fortunately does call up the shutdown menu).

ctrl-alt-f1, then ctrl-alt-supr. --> reboot or halt, depending on how you configure it.

Very helpful.

...

...
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15:21

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 16:37 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

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At 15:28:36 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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graphic). How can I get one?

Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

(I forgot to mention that is gnome; you didn't say which desktop you use, so... I gave the trick for the one I use now)

...

Not to be picky, but one would have expected a menu to be installed by default.

And it is... but things fail sometimes. Are you reusing a previous home, perhaps?

...

Thanks for the advice. I will do that later, as I am now using v11.1 to save nerves.

11.2 is better. Really :-)

...

...
Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

I didn't, but will, thanks again, if I can luck into a sufficiently stable state to work with.

You should, always. At least, run "you", or "zypper patch". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkv39o4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XS1gCdEvRf7UPt8s5Czs8c4gZqL31o qwYAoIj+i4Kg+jffl0yMPOXdFsHa5n6z =KYeK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

15:57

At 18:21:41 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 16:37 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

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At 15:28:36 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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graphic). How can I get one?

Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

With the erratic mouse cursor, it's hopeless.

...

(I forgot to mention that is gnome; you didn't say which desktop you use, so... I gave the trick for the one I use now)

No, I'm using kde4, not that I like it. The local Linux usergroup, by the way, is starting to write to the powers that be about the vast gap between what kde4 is and what it might be for the benefit of its users. Does know the incantation for kde4 to get back the missing menu?

...

...
Not to be picky, but one would have expected a menu to be installed by default.

And it is... but things fail sometimes. Are you reusing a previous home, perhaps?

It's a clean install, done this morning, which I haven't been able to use because of the mouse cursor.

...

...
Thanks for the advice. I will do that later, as I am now using v11.1 to save nerves.

11.2 is better. Really :-)

That's why I installed it. My problems are with kde4, my opinion of which has only gotten lower since I started to use it on the laptop about a week ago.

...

...
...
Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

Again, I can't get past the mouse cursor problem. I have been trying to find information on the Web about how to do that. I booted to level 3 and tried to guess my way, but without success.

...

...
I didn't, but will, thanks again, if I can luck into a sufficiently stable state to work with.

You should, always. At least, run "you", or "zypper patch".

The desktop is altogether unusable. I can't do that.

...

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark Goldstein

16:09

Stan, On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Stan Goodman wrote:

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Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

Again, I can't get past the mouse cursor problem. I have been trying to find information on the Web about how to do that. I booted to level 3 and tried to guess my way, but without success.

One possible way could be: Ctrl-Alt-F2, getting console login on pseudo-console 2. Login as root Here you can use zypper up or yast2 in which case you'll be running ncurses version of yast2 and will be able to update. (Return to X by pressing Ctrl-Alt-F7). Regards, -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:12

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 18:57 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

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At 18:21:41 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

With the erratic mouse cursor, it's hopeless.

Argh!

...

...
(I forgot to mention that is gnome; you didn't say which desktop you use, so... I gave the trick for the one I use now)

No, I'm using kde4, not that I like it. The local Linux usergroup, by the way, is starting to write to the powers that be about the vast gap between what kde4 is and what it might be for the benefit of its users.

Does know the incantation for kde4 to get back the missing menu?

Dunno. But you have big problems... If it were gnome, I'd think about disabling compiz. Dunno what's the name for the kde equivalent? Desktop effects, perhaps?

...

...
...
...
Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

Again, I can't get past the mouse cursor problem. I have been trying to find information on the Web about how to do that. I booted to level 3 and tried to guess my way, but without success.

Simply run "yast", there is a text mode yast. It has menus and all, looking "a bit" different, but very ussable. No mouse, though.

...

...
You should, always. At least, run "you", or "zypper patch".

The desktop is altogether unusable. I can't do that.

Run "zypper patch" in the console. Or yast. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkv4AoIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XGzACdHtftRHXOD12sp+Hv2TlcdCdh HPkAn1ItzcJGbAHWNB7lirgGFJTQ6Jp+ =umgY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

16:27

At 19:12:47 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On Saturday, 2010-05-22 at 18:57 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:

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At 18:21:41 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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...
...
Right mouse click on the panel bar, "add to panel". Write "menu" in the search box. There is "Main menu" and "traditional main menu". Choose one or have both. I do.

With the erratic mouse cursor, it's hopeless.

Argh!

My very words.

...

...
...
(I forgot to mention that is gnome; you didn't say which desktop you use, so... I gave the trick for the one I use now)

No, I'm using kde4, not that I like it. The local Linux usergroup, by the way, is starting to write to the powers that be about the vast gap between what kde4 is and what it might be for the benefit of its users.

Does know the incantation for kde4 to get back the missing menu?

Dunno. But you have big problems...

Probably somebody knows how to recover the menu.

...

If it were gnome, I'd think about disabling compiz. Dunno what's the name for the kde equivalent? Desktop effects, perhaps?

...
...
...
...
Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

Again, I can't get past the mouse cursor problem. I have been trying to find information on the Web about how to do that. I booted to level 3 and tried to guess my way, but without success.

Simply run "yast", there is a text mode yast. It has menus and all, looking "a bit" different, but very ussable. No mouse, though.

...
...
You should, always. At least, run "you", or "zypper patch".

The desktop is altogether unusable. I can't do that.

Run "zypper patch" in the console. Or yast.

At once! -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

C

16:17

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 17:57, Stan Goodman wrote:

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11.2 is better. Really :-)

That's why I installed it. My problems are with kde4, my opinion of which has only gotten lower since I started to use it on the laptop about a week ago.

KDE4 is very good now... but only really since the 4.4.x incarnations... the previous versions... were... not so good. The upcoming KDE4.5 is looking very good. Generally speaking, a lot of the annoyances you find with KDE4 are fixed already (that is in 4.4.3 factory) or are targeted for 4.5. It really is worth bumping to KDE4.4.3 if you can on all machines you're running it on C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

16:52

At 19:17:06 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, C wrote:

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On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 17:57, Stan Goodman wrote:

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11.2 is better. Really :-)

That's why I installed it. My problems are with kde4, my opinion of which has only gotten lower since I started to use it on the laptop about a week ago.

KDE4 is very good now... but only really since the 4.4.x incarnations... the previous versions... were... not so good. The upcoming KDE4.5 is looking very good.

Generally speaking, a lot of the annoyances you find with KDE4 are fixed already (that is in 4.4.3 factory) or are targeted for 4.5. It really is worth bumping to KDE4.4.3 if you can on all machines you're running it on

The problems are not only about bugs, but also about foolish (sic!) decisions. To shut down the system or restart now takes twice as many user actions than it did in kde3, without any useful purpose. Many of the application windows are very non-intuitive for example, and "different", but not better in any sense, except to present an additional learning curve. In kde3, one could use .png icons in the panel. I have programs that I want in my second panel, for which I made png icons from the very good .ico icons that I had. Now the panel requires a vector graphic, and I know no way to convert anything into such a format. I can understand that the new arrangement makes it easier to program, because of the requirement for variable size, but it makes it less convenient for users. Whatever the kde team thinks, their product is intended for people to use, not to provide a hobby for programmers no matter how talented. I continue to think that the kde4 project was directed by people who do not care a fig for what users want or need, or for user convenience. And the rationale is "you don't pay for it, so you are at our mercy, take it or leave it", which is shameful, not to mention egotistical. I can understand why there are bugs. The classic case is v1.57 of Borland's Sidekick, a DOS address book and telephone dialer, back in The Year One. It was actually released, and it had only one bug: it didn't know how to dial the telephone. So it happens even in well regulated families. Yes, of course I will update kde, if I can ever get into the one I already have. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

17:29

Stan Goodman said the following on 05/22/2010 12:52 PM:

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The problems are not only about bugs, but also about foolish (sic!) decisions. To shut down the system or restart now takes twice as many user actions than it did in kde3, without any useful purpose.

Your point being what? You will find over the last few centuries of computation and user inter-face design that it is the "inner loop", the often executed activities, that show reward in being improved and speeded up. The infrequent or "only once" don't warrant the effort. In fact if you can speed up the "inner loop" at the cost of the set-up and teardown that's probably beneficial as well. Some of us virtually never shut down our systems; this isn't Microsoft Windows where you have to reboot for every minor application upgrade. Laptops you say? I thought that was what 'suspend' was for. Having once lost a database because the shutdown did *not* say "are you sure ... are you really sure?", I'm not sorry that the extra confirming actions are now required :-)

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Many of the application windows are very non-intuitive for example, and "different", but not better in any sense, except to present an additional learning curve.

So you like KDE3, I gather? Well Ok, then, go get someone who as only ever used Microsoft Windows/95 and stick them in front of a Linux box running KDE3 and listen to them complain, and see how many of the gripes are essentially the same as yours about KDE4. Its about familiarity. People who won't quit making the same mistake over and over are what we call conservatives. - Richard Ford, in his novel Independence Day Lets see ...

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In kde3, one could use .png icons in the panel. I have programs that I want in my second panel, for which I made png icons from the very good .ico icons that I had. Now the panel requires a vector graphic, and I know no way to convert anything into such a format. I can understand that the new arrangement makes it easier to program, because of the requirement for variable size, but it makes it less convenient for users.

NOT! It means the old assumptions are not valid. You want backwards compatibility? You want stirrups and reins on your car because that is what horses had? You obviously see the reason - scalability - but you seem to be making to erroneous assumptions: 1. Because you yourself don't know how, there isn't a way 2. You expect to use the same tools as before. No, there are plenty of vector graphics tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_vector_graphics_software I like Inkscape and Inkscape can import and display bitmap images,so if you can convert your PNG to BMP ... "The truth is out there" Well, the fact are if you go look. Or ask. But so long as you take a negative view people are going to get exasperated with you. Saying that the KDE4 developers "don't care a fig" for users is not going to endear you to them. -- Originality is the art of remembering the quote but forgetting the source. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rares Aioanei

17:54

On 05/22/2010 08:29 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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You will find over the last few centuries of computation and user inter-face design that it is the "inner loop", the often executed activities, that show reward in being improved and speeded up. The infrequent or "only once" don't warrant the effort. In fact if you can speed up the "inner loop" at the cost of the set-up and teardown that's probably beneficial as well.

Hmm, centuries of computing, huh? :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

18:19

Rares Aioanei said the following on 05/22/2010 01:54 PM:

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On 05/22/2010 08:29 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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Hmm, centuries of computing, huh? :)

Yes. Computing existed long before Babbage, and mechanical calculators pre-dated him as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing There's a good case to be made that even programmable machines are over a thousand years old: http://www.historyofscience.com/G2I/timeline/index.php?id=699 See also http://www.historyofscience.com/G2I/timeline/index.php?category=Accounting+%... Astronomy (and astrology) has always been a driver for better computational algorithms. Think "Stonehenge": an astronomical calculator. Hard to modify the algorithm though. The importance of better algorithms and better "inner loops" is that before Babbage even the counting boards, abacuses, and slide rules needed human operators. They were the limiting factor. This is why issues such as "convergence theory" became important. -- "The number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..." - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Regis Matejcik

18:42

On Sat, 2010-05-22 at 20:54 +0300, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On 05/22/2010 08:29 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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You will find over the last few centuries of computation and user inter-face design that it is the "inner loop", the often executed activities, that show reward in being improved and speeded up. The infrequent or "only once" don't warrant the effort. In fact if you can speed up the "inner loop" at the cost of the set-up and teardown that's probably beneficial as well.

Hmm, centuries of computing, huh? :)

It was centuries of "computation" - includes abacus and slide rule and probably a few others. I think the point is still valid about the "inter-face design" and how people relate to it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

21:09

At 20:54:33 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On 05/22/2010 08:29 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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You will find over the last few centuries of computation and user inter-face design that it is the "inner loop", the often executed activities, that show reward in being improved and speeded up. The infrequent or "only once" don't warrant the effort. In fact if you can speed up the "inner loop" at the cost of the set-up and teardown that's probably beneficial as well.

Hmm, centuries of computing, huh? :)

Goes a long way to explain a lot -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Regis Matejcik

18:36

...

You obviously see the reason - scalability - but you seem to be making to erroneous assumptions:

1. Because you yourself don't know how, there isn't a way 2. You expect to use the same tools as before.

No, there are plenty of vector graphics tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_vector_graphics_software I like Inkscape and Inkscape can import and display bitmap images,so if you can convert your PNG to BMP ...

Actually, you can import the png directly to inkscape, hit save, and voila - a vector graphic - (.svg) file. Probably best to adjust the background size before saving though, File -> Document Properties ->Fit Page to Selection. Save.

...

Saying that the KDE4 developers "don't care a fig" for users is not going to endear you to them.

True, for what it's worth, here's at least one vote that says kde4 is outstanding. Really looking forward to 4.5. Hope the balance of the quirks are worked out with the different mouse ! Regis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

21:25

At 21:36:58 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, Regis Matejcik wrote:

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...
You obviously see the reason - scalability - but you seem to be making to erroneous assumptions:

1. Because you yourself don't know how, there isn't a way 2. You expect to use the same tools as before.

No, there are plenty of vector graphics tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_vector_graphics_software I like Inkscape and Inkscape can import and display bitmap images,so if you can convert your PNG to BMP ...

Actually, you can import the png directly to inkscape, hit save, and voila - a vector graphic - (.svg) file. Probably best to adjust the background size before saving though, File -> Document Properties ->Fit Page to Selection. Save.

...
Saying that the KDE4 developers "don't care a fig" for users is not going to endear you to them.

But it's obvious. Did anybody try a user survey about what users actually want? It ought to be obvious that that is necessary in the case of such a great departure from the kde3. Or did they feel their way by means of incremental changes? "Great Leaps Forwark" are a risky way to go. I know for a fact, by the way, that I am very far from being alone in my view of kde4. There is a lot of arrogance in the team.

...

True, for what it's worth, here's at least one vote that says kde4 is outstanding. Really looking forward to 4.5.

I hope it will be a great improvement, i.e. usable. That you are enthusiastic even about the present version illustrates "different strokes for different folks". There is no admission of such a philosophy in Anton's defense; it was more "I know what is best for everybosy".

...

Hope the balance of the quirks are worked out with the different mouse

One way or another, it will. My slogan in this case os "Illegitimus Non Carborundum".

...

Regis

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

23:06

Stan Goodman said the following on 05/22/2010 05:25 PM:

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At 21:36:58 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, Regis Matejcik wrote:

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[...] I hope it will be a great improvement, i.e. usable. That you are enthusiastic even about the present version illustrates "different strokes for different folks". There is no admission of such a philosophy in Anton's defense; it was more "I know what is best for everybosy".

Not so. "Anton's defence" was that as a neophile he is willing to understand that anything new requires debugging. Some have said that KDE4.0 should never have been released. I disagree. If it hadn't then there would have been no feedback and no bug fixes and no development. Can someone illustrate with a FOSS project that has languished for lack of users and hence lack of feedback and fixes? I'm sure you can. The problem with KDE4 was (and still is) the recidivist KDE3 users who moved over too soon. Perhaps if the KDE4 developers had called everything before 4.4 a "pre-" or a "-rc" ... David Rankin keeps suggesting alternate desktops and I keep trying them. I have problems with most of them but I happily try them out and ask David about configuration issues, experiment, download themes and widgets and things, and take a positive approach. All these desktops are different - have different assumptions about the UI. The gap between KDE and Enlightenment is bigger than that between KDE3 and KDE4, but so what? I could still use it effectively even if I couldn't find all the "bits" to dress it up the way I wanted. All good fun. If KDE4 vanished I could change to XFCE, E16, E17 or even FVWM or IceWm. If they all vanished I could even use Gnome. :-) I'm not saying KDE is "best for everybosy" (was that a Freudian slip on your part?) but complaining that it isn't what you want is unfair. No-one is forcing you to use it. -- If you would thoroughly know anything, teach it to others. Tryon Edwards (1809 - 1894) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

23 May 23 May

01:09

On 2010/05/22 19:06 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

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The problem with KDE4 ... No-one is forcing you to use it.

That's debatable. Equipment dies. Replacement required. Replacement not supported by most recently used (familiar) OS &/or DTE version(s). Old DTE was KDE3. New/supported OS no longer offers KDE3, leaving KDE4 as presumptively most similar to familiar KDE3 as compared to IceWM, LXDE, XFCE, Gnome, et al. What to do? Other than giving up computing, KDE4 is the least objectionable option, which amounts to being forced. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

01:23

Felix Miata said the following on 05/22/2010 09:09 PM:

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On 2010/05/22 19:06 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

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The problem with KDE4 ... No-one is forcing you to use it.

That's debatable. Equipment dies. Replacement required. Replacement not supported by most recently used (familiar) OS &/or DTE version(s). Old DTE was KDE3. New/supported OS no longer offers KDE3, leaving KDE4 as presumptively most similar to familiar KDE3 as compared to IceWM, LXDE, XFCE, Gnome, et al. What to do? Other than giving up computing, KDE4 is the least objectionable option, which amounts to being forced.

:-) Like you are being forced to use Linux ? Well compared to OSX and Windows it is "the least objectionable option". Pardon me for twisting your arm and forcing you against your will :-) -- To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. Elbert Hubbard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - openSUSE

03:17

On 05/22/2010 07:06 PM, Anton Aylward pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

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Stan Goodman said the following on 05/22/2010 05:25 PM:

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At 21:36:58 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, Regis Matejcik wrote:

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[...] I hope it will be a great improvement, i.e. usable. That you are enthusiastic even about the present version illustrates "different strokes for different folks". There is no admission of such a philosophy in Anton's defense; it was more "I know what is best for everybosy".

Not so. "Anton's defence" was that as a neophile he is willing to understand that anything new requires debugging.

Some have said that KDE4.0 should never have been released. I disagree. If it hadn't then there would have been no feedback and no bug fixes and no development.

Many didn't say it shouldn't have been released, what we said is that it should not have been presented as ready for prime time when it should have been offered as beta for testing. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

22 May 22 May

16:35

Stan Goodman said the following on 05/22/2010 11:57 AM:

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With the erratic mouse cursor, it's hopeless.

One might suspect the hardware ... When faced with any oddity I resort to using a LiveCD. I have a number of them, Mint, Mempis, Knoppix, openSuse, Mandriva. Ubuntu and kubuntu. Even openSolaris. Various versions Then there are the forensic toolkits like Backtrack Why? Right now you seem to be 'blaming' openSuse 11.2 and KDE4. Using the LiveCDs I can test out - without committing to hard disk - other distribution; I can test the hardware. Is there a "openSuse 11.2" LiveCD Go look: http://www.livecdlist.com Pick one. Pick many.

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Did you run the update? Yast, etc, update?

Again, I can't get past the mouse cursor problem. I have been trying to find information on the Web about how to do that. I booted to level 3 and tried to guess my way, but without success.

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I didn't, but will, thanks again, if I can luck into a sufficiently stable state to work with.

You should, always. At least, run "you", or "zypper patch".

The desktop is altogether unusable. I can't do that.

You don't need the desktop. You only need the command line. -- Science is nothing but trained and organized common sense, differing from the latter only as a veteran may differ from a raw recruit: and its methods differ from those of common sense only as far as the guardsman's cut and thrust differ from the manner in which a savage wields his club. Thomas H. Huxley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

C

16:13

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 15:37, Stan Goodman wrote:

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1) There is no Main Menu (the chameleon menu) at the left end of the panel. In its place, there is a button for the . I need this menu; the c11.2 installation in the laptop machine has it, although it is labeled "Computer", for some reason (or without reason, with no graphic). How can I get one?

Was this a clean install or an upgrade with an existing /home? Was this a system that was running an earlier version of KDE4 or KDE3? What video card? Intel? I've installed 11.2 about 30 times now on various machines... and a clean install works every single time.

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Not to be picky, but one would have expected a menu to be installed by default.

It is installed by default... something didn't go right during your install. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

16:59

At 19:13:58 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, C wrote:

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On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 15:37, Stan Goodman wrote:

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1) There is no Main Menu (the chameleon menu) at the left end of the panel. In its place, there is a button for the . I need this menu; the c11.2 installation in the laptop machine has it, although it is labeled "Computer", for some reason (or without reason, with no graphic). How can I get one?

Was this a clean install or an upgrade with an existing /home? Was this a system that was running an earlier version of KDE4 or KDE3? What video card? Intel?

As I told Carlos, it's a clean install. I never overwrite an operationg system to upgrade.

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I've installed 11.2 about 30 times now on various machines... and a clean install works every single time.

=;-)8

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Not to be picky, but one would have expected a menu to be installed by default.

It is installed by default... something didn't go right during your install.

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

16:44

On 2010/05/22 13:26 (GMT+0300) Stan Goodman composed:

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2) After the new system boots, with the desktop already displayed on the screen, the mouse cursor is erratic ... How can I approach this problem?

Possibly until the real problem can be found and corrected, a switch from PS/2 port mouse to USB port mouse or vice versa, or just a different mouse, might help. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

17:38

At 19:44:30 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2010/05/22 13:26 (GMT+0300) Stan Goodman composed:

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2) After the new system boots, with the desktop already displayed on the screen, the mouse cursor is erratic ... How can I approach this problem?

Possibly until the real problem can be found and corrected, a switch from PS/2 port mouse to USB port mouse or vice versa, or just a different mouse, might help.

Worth a try, Felix. Stand by while I reboot. . . I'm back. Surprisingly, there was no problem. I booted three times, to make sure it was not a fluke. The PS/2 mouse is a Kensington trackball. I see no difficulty with the desktop on the v11.1 installation on the same machine. The two OSes are not on the same HD, for what that's worth. It's hard to see what the difference can be. Now I'll try to update with YaST, in the hope I can recover the menu. I should mention, however, that the installation in the laptop machine also has a lack on the panel -- the logout button at the extreme right end was missing, and I replaced it with one of the widgets (applets). So although it omission was a different one, the fact is that the panel was populated differently on two very different machines.

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"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

C

18:33

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 19:38, Stan Goodman wrote:

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Now I'll try to update with YaST, in the hope I can recover the menu.

I should mention, however, that the installation in the laptop machine also has a lack on the panel -- the logout button at the extreme right end was missing, and I replaced it with one of the widgets (applets). So although it omission was a different one, the fact is that the panel was populated differently on two very different machines.

This missing menu and/or missing things on the task bar are not normal.. in every single KDE4 install I've done (and it has been a lot this time around), they are all fine.. all buttons and widgets are there. We need to sort out why your is different. I can say with full confidence, that missing menu buttons etc are not a broken feature of the openSUSE KDE4 install... something is wrong in your setup... your hardware... or your install itself. Have you tried creating a new test user? Your mouse is acting up... use YaST from CLI to add a new user.. log in as that user... KDE4 still broken? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman

20:59

At 21:33:17 on Saturday Saturday 22 May 2010, C wrote:

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On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 19:38, Stan Goodman wrote:

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Now I'll try to update with YaST, in the hope I can recover the menu.

I should mention, however, that the installation in the laptop machine also has a lack on the panel -- the logout button at the extreme right end was missing, and I replaced it with one of the widgets (applets). So although it omission was a different one, the fact is that the panel was populated differently on two very different machines.

This missing menu and/or missing things on the task bar are not normal.. in every single KDE4 install I've done (and it has been a lot this time around), they are all fine.. all buttons and widgets are there. We need to sort out why your is different. I can say with full confidence, that missing menu buttons etc are not a broken feature of the openSUSE KDE4 install... something is wrong in your setup... your hardware... or your install itself.

On two very different machines. What they have in common is the DVD from which they were installed. On the desktop machinen, perhaps there might be a problem with the HD on which the 11.2 was installed. The two OSes are on different HDs. That's an appealing idea, because I think that was the HD on which v10.3 was installed, and it had _occasional _instability of the same kind. I can't do more today, because it is going on midnight and I am pooped. I'll explore both these directions in the coming days. Meantime Thanks to all.

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Have you tried creating a new test user? Your mouse is acting up... use YaST from CLI to add a new user.. log in as that user... KDE4 still broken?

I'll touch that base too, just for completeness... -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (9)

Anton Aylward
C
Carlos E. R.
Felix Miata
Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Mark Goldstein
Rares Aioanei
Regis Matejcik
Stan Goodman