[opensuse] What is the purpose of the systemd journal service?
AFAICT, this was introduced in 12.2 - what is the exact purpose and can I get rid of it? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/15/2012 09:40 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems. If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ed Greshko wrote:
I do want to log, but I've looked at the journal already and didn't see anything that wasn't already in /var/log/messages, /var/log/mail etc. Seems like a duplication of effort and a waste of space in /var/log/journal. (which afaict can just be deleted). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Not all of them no, but I did glance over the journald config file. There's stuff to limit the size and logging rate controls, but there was no "Enable=Yes" setting :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/15/2012 04:58 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
then there is the mask option in man systemctl maybe that is what you want mask [NAME...] Mask one or more unit files, as specified on the command line. This will link these units to /dev/null, making it impossible to start them. This is a stronger version of disable, since it prohibits all kinds of activation of the unit, including manual activation. Use this option with care. Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 15/09/12 11:58, Per Jessen escribió:
It is simple, JUst use SystemMaxUse=nM , where n is an integer used to set the number of megabytes that the journal can use on disk. However it is smart-ass and even if you dont use this limit, it will not use more than 10% of the size of the filesystem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it when it brings me absolutely nothing that I want (the current situation). In openSUSE I think we should have omitted /var/log/journal, but it is easily deleted of course. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Without it, systemd has no way to log anything. If you're going to get rid of journald, you may consider booting your system with sysvinit (deprecated) and eschewing systemd entirely (which you won't be able to do for much longer). -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Christofer C. Bell wrote:
Hmm, how did systemd manage to log anything in openSUSE 12.1 when there was no journald thingie? Also, it doesn't seem to journal anything that isn't already logged to syslog? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 16/09/12 06:49, Per Jessen escribió:
Hmm, how did systemd manage to log anything in openSUSE 12.1 when there was no journald thingie?
It had no centralized logging and the system logger was controlled by the syslog implementation, that is no longer the case since systemd 38. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2012 11:37 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
systemd should work without the journal, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 16/09/12 07:17, Andreas Jaeger escribió:
systemd should work without the journal,
Currently a syslog service is no longer required but the journal is mandatory, what is optional is persistent logging. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 16/09/12 05:22, Per Jessen escribió:
Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it
syslog implementations "hook" over it.. using /run/systemd/journal/syslog socket ... systemd has centralized logging in the journal, nothing else can listen on the system logger anymore. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Wow. That's is pretty invasive stuff I have to say. Well, I guess it's fine as long as the functionality doesn't change for the end user. Do you happen to know if syslog-ng and rsyslog both work with this? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 17/09/12 13:36, Per Jessen escribió:
Yes, all shipped syslog implementations read from the data exported by systemd. This will probably remain in place for a very long time, though in the nearish future we may not install a syslog implementation by default. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Why wouldn't we? I would strongly oppose that change. I don't know about everybody else, but I for one do not need yet another version of the syslog config file. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
I absolutely understand your frustration, but I must say that Linux distributions (including openSUSE) are not intended to be a reference implementation of 1990s UNIX. The reason Linux has become so popular in the enterprise (and distributions like SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and Red Hat Enterprise Linux are able to thrive and take marketshare) is because the Linux is in a constant state of evolution. That evolution is taking us in the direction of systemd. It's a direction I strongly support towards a goal I wish could come even faster (the widespread adoption of systemd). The elimination of the syslog service would be to further that goal and reduce the very redundancy you feel comes with having both a syslog service and systemd's journal. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 17/09/12 15:23, Per Jessen escribió:
If you read what I actually wrote... I said "not installing a syslog implementation by default" that **does not mean** syslog will go away or that we will remove the packages and supporting tools. It means the focus will be shifted to journald etc..but at the moment, no application is able to use it in its full capabilities and that will likely take a long while. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Okay, I (mis)read what you write to mean that systemd would be replacing syslog-ng/rsyslog functionality. If it does not, I don't see a reason to stop including syslog by default? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:45:01 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
A systemd's Journal is replacing syslog functionality. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE... As syslog is needed only on systems that will continue using it for various reasons until it will be replaced, it can and should be removed from default installation, which is essentially desktop. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:30 AM, Togan Muftuoglu <toganm@opensuse.org> wrote:
The default install (what you get if you click "Yes" a dozen times in a row after booting the DVD) is a desktop. It's full of desktop productivity applications, a desktop environment, and doesn't run any services (not even sshd, as that's a non-default install option -- you have to change it yourself). That may not be how *you* (and many others) install it, but if you're deviating from the "click yes over and over until it's done" path, then you're not installing as per the provided defaults. The *default* installation is clearly a desktop and isn't useful for anything other than *being* a desktop until you install other, non-default, software. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Christofer C. Bell wrote:
Bit of silly discussion, imho - what you actually get per default depends a lot on the machine and how you install. When I install and choose all the defaults, I still don't get X configured :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:35:13 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
You use options, not defaults. Defaults are as Christofer explained, and if don't get X configured then it is a bug :) -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rajko wrote:
When you install the NET iso over ssh, X isn't configured. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:44:37 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
When you install the NET iso over ssh, X isn't configured.
I didn't perform installation using NET iso for a long time, but last time I did, it was like: * download iso, * burn it on a CD, * drop CD in a tray, * reboot computer, * choose boot media, (vendor and model specific) * tell the repository URL, * and then you can tell yes all the way trough. If all is good and network doesn't fail, the result is desktop installation. I know there are other methods to boot iso image, but they are not default methods. Here default means they are not in focus when creating release, like CD/DVD/USB so they may, and usually do, work, but no one will get gray hair if they don't. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rajko wrote:
Not when you install over ssh. Anyway, like I've already said, it's a silly/pointless discussion as we don't aim for such a narrow default use-case. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Togan Muftuoglu said the following on 09/19/2012 03:30 AM:
Oh worse, much worse than that! In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a variety of reasons that workstations report various things to the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory compliance, not least of all to do with login and access. Yes, "various reasons" for continuing to use it. -- Before all else, we seek, upon our common labor as a nation, the blessings of Almighty God. Dwight D. Eisenhower -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:09:24 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet.
An important part of the syslog functionality is missing and you strive for sysvinit replacement as fast as possible? That's ridiculous if you ask me. The replacement functionality must be present *before* the replacement can take place. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 19 September 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
git-like means it does not work in real time? BTW any stupid or coffee machine or toaster is able to log to syslog since 20 years. That's why it's quasi standard to have a centralized syslog in any corporate environment. Inventing another protocol which works on linux boxes only and only if systemd is running is just waste of time. If systemd needs the journal internally, local-only for whatever reason - fine - but replacing syslog is IMO impossible. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Ruediger Meier <sweet_f_a@gmx.de> wrote:
journald is able to receive messages from syslog over the network. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE... -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
Could you point me to the exact lines where you've read this ...? BTW that text is really funny. First they say "The syslog network protocol is very simple, but also very limited" to have another minus point on the syslog side, Then they give us journald without network support at all and try to sell us "copying files between hosts" as network support. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Ruediger Meier <sweet_f_a@gmx.de> wrote:
Yes, of course, it's this part here: "One of the core ideas of the journal is to unify the various logging technologies we currently have. As such it should be useful as replacement for wtmp, early boot loggers and even the audit logging backend. Data can be generated from a variety of sources: kernel messages generated with printk(), userspace messages generated with syslog(3), userspace entries using the native API, coredumps via /proc/proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern and more." I'm not really sure how to indicate exactly where this is in the document, but "Find" in your browser can probably dig it up. :-) -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
I still can't see where you have read that "journald is able to receive messages from syslog _over_the_network".
-- Chris
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ruediger Meier wrote:
Yeah, all I see is "In the initial version journald’s network support will be very simple: to share journal files across the network, simply copy them to a central host". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Ruediger Meier <sweet_f_a@gmx.de> wrote:
Ah, perhaps I misread it. I interpreted "Data can be generated from a variety of sources: kernel messages generated with printk(), userspace messages generated with syslog(3), userspace entries using the native API, coredumps via /proc/proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern and more." as being the "list of things journald can receive messages from (with syslog(3) being one of them). Along with: "Clustering & Network: Today computers seldom work in isolation. It is crucial that logging caters for that and journal files and utilities are from the ground on developed to support big multi-host installations." But it does sound now like these are being described more in terms of "general requirements overview" and not necessarily currently implementation as indicated by: "In a later version we plan to extend the journal minimally to support live remote logging, in both PUSH and PULL modes always using a local journal as buffer for a store-and-forward logic." That said, this article was written in November of last year (date is at the bottom of the page). It would be interesting to see if current releases of journald have that support implemented. Does anyone else know? -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Christofer C. Bell wrote:
I can't find any config support for it, but I might not be looking in the right place. I was also trying to find out how to change the timestamp format, can't find that either. ATM, a lot of this sounds like classic M$ vapourware - it's difficult to take anyone who talks about replacing syslog with it very seriously. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 20/09/12 13:43, Per Jessen escribió:
You are not looking at the wrong place, just looking for an approach completely contrary to the purpose of the journal. The way the "timestamp format" is stored is inmutable, it is up to the consumer application to display it in the format you want to. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
And how do I make systemd-journal do that? If it cannot, I find your ideas of leaving out syslog from the default install absolutely ludicrous. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 20/09/12 14:16, Per Jessen escribió:
It could be journalctl, or any other custom application written in either C, C++, Ruby, PHP, python etc.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Ah, I wasn't aware you were planning on supplying those too. Sorry, my mistake. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rajko wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE...
I don't see any logic in that at all - syslog is _obviously_ only needed on systems that use it, but as we today use it on all systems, and systemd does not have the equivalent functionality, why would we stop installing syslog by default ??? Second, your assumption about the default system being a desktop is clearly wrong. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/15/2012 10:49 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
I don't have 12.2, my experience with this service is in Fedora where it logs to /run/log/journal/ so as to not take up space on the disk. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ed Greshko wrote:
Right, but on openSUSE we create /var/log/journal at installation time. Anyway, I can just delete that, but what I am still wondering about is whether this journald gives me something I don't already have? I.e. back to $SUBJ. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 05:27:22PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
It is a cryptographically protected (allowing knowing when it was tampered with by potential attackers), strongly typed logfile in comparison to /var/log/messages. Here is the design document: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE... Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 15/09/12 12:27, Per Jessen escribió:
Right, but on openSUSE we create /var/log/journal at installation time. Anyway, I can just delete that,
Yes, you can delete that directory and the journal will not have persistent logging, however it will still be functional. but what I am still wondering about is
whether this journald gives me something I don't already have?
Yes, the ability to know for sure the messages are not being tampered with, faster search... however at this stage there are no apps using its full power.. that will probably come along in future releases. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 15/09/12 11:49, Per Jessen escribió:
It is significantly more powerful than traditional logging: For example journalctl /usr/bin/foo --> get messages from program foo journalctl /dev/sda --> hard-drive problems ? journalctl -p error --> only errors (note that all this 3 are not implemented in openSUSE yet) Currently it is not a full replacement for syslog but I suggest you to check it out. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 15/09/12 09:08, Per Jessen escribió:
AFAICT, this was introduced in 12.2 - what is the exact purpose and can I get rid of it?
The purpose of the journal is documented here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE... Cheers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/15/2012 09:40 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems. If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ed Greshko wrote:
I do want to log, but I've looked at the journal already and didn't see anything that wasn't already in /var/log/messages, /var/log/mail etc. Seems like a duplication of effort and a waste of space in /var/log/journal. (which afaict can just be deleted). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Not all of them no, but I did glance over the journald config file. There's stuff to limit the size and logging rate controls, but there was no "Enable=Yes" setting :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Anton Aylward -
Christofer C. Bell -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Ed Greshko -
Marcus Meissner -
Per Jessen -
Philipp Thomas -
Rajko -
Ruediger Meier -
Togan Muftuoglu