[OT] Windows 3.11 transition to SuSE; OK for neophytes?
Greetings Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've come across a situation where I might need the assistance of someone more experienced. I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: 0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest. So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience? TIA and Cheers
expatriate wrote:
0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good.
Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
It's not like Microsoft products are cheap, is it? [ Unless, of course, it's a cracked copy of Windows and Office :-) ]
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
Neophytes will have just as much problems with Windows, as with Linux. Neophytes don't install Windows on their own (like people seem to think this stuff happens), they don't install anything on their own, they always call for somebody else. Yet, if you set up their box with SuSE and don't leave out any detail, they will do their "computing" without worries. If their computer (with internet) will run smoothly, if they will never be affected by stupid Windows viruses and so on, they will never know what good you did them by installing Linux. You need to explain that well to them :-) so they show you respect :-) You absolutely _must_ install (and verify that it's working) an autoupdate script, because their box will be always online, and easy target for script kiddies. http://susefaq.sourceforge.net/you.html#AEN1666 Also read my previous message to the list ("has someone hacked?"); it has some additional information that is needed. In this particular case, I would suggest skipping step 1 and 2. This will ensure a more reliable update, because it will most certainly get a working mirror. It will be slower (the mirror will not be the nearest), but safer in the long run when the box will be without administration. -- Linux/Unix Systems Engineer http://www.genesys.ro Phone +40723-267961
The 03.05.01 at 14:52, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
You absolutely _must_ install (and verify that it's working) an autoupdate script, because their box will be always online, and easy target for script kiddies.
Are you sure that's wise? If it bombs, they won't know a thing about it, just that the machine stops working. On the other hand, firing up YOU manually is not too difficult, with the advantage that if it breaks down they know what they were doing, and can tell the local/remote guru. I wonder... I wonder if Yast or something can be started automatically to check if there are updates and then pop a message or send an email to the users, advising of it. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Thursday 01 May 2003 21:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I wonder... I wonder if Yast or something can be started automatically to check if there are updates and then pop a message or send an email to the users, advising of it.
That's pretty much what SuSEwatcher does in 8.2
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I wonder... I wonder if Yast or something can be started automatically to check if there are updates and then pop a message or send an email to the users, advising of it. On Thursday 01 May 2003 14:31, Carlos E. R. wrote: The 03.05.01 at 14:52, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
You absolutely _must_ install (and verify that it's working) an autoupdate script, because their box will be always online, and easy target for script kiddies.
Are you sure that's wise? If it bombs, they won't know a thing about it, just that the machine stops working. On the other hand, firing up YOU manually is not too difficult, with the advantage that if it breaks down they know what they were doing, and can tell the local/remote guru.
8.2 has this. It sits in the system tray and will tell you when an update installed on the sys comes up. That way you don't have to bring up YOU everytime and then WWWWAAAAIIIITTTT for the db to get updated while it runs through the updates list against your sys configs. I have heard that some have had some ancillary problems with this running in the background. But, since this is a setup for a older couple that has minimal req's (webbrowing, email, word processing) then it should be pretty much a no-brainer. Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sssq7WVLiDrqeksRAmGdAKCFE8DVHG7OLUqL9yLSOH2RzHFGEgCgusQT fA6SK/Pkdi9A9wBmDeLwATE= =0/5J -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
The 03.05.02 at 14:46, Curtis Rey wrote:
8.2 has this. It sits in the system tray and will tell you when an update installed on the sys comes up. That way you don't have to bring up YOU everytime and then WWWWAAAAIIIITTTT for the db to get updated while it runs through the updates list against your sys configs.
Nice :-) But I'm not upgrading 8.1 to 8.2, I don't do it more than once a year unless forced to ;-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Silviu Marin-Caea wrote: | Neophytes will have just as much problems with Windows, as with Linux. | Neophytes don't install Windows on their own (like people seem to think | this stuff happens), they don't install anything on their own, they | always call for somebody else. | My freind Tom and I had long discussions before I went to linux over "ease of use". he had the opinion that if you start off someone who has never used a computer before on the comand line vs gui, it's no more difficult to use than the other. Joe - -- SuSE Linux 8.1 (i386) Kernal: 2.4.19-4GB i686 Posted from: Miverna ~ 9:58pm up 3:28, 2 users, load average: 1.63, 2.31, 3.08 What his attitude -- toward your ownership and use of weapons -- conveys is his real attitude about you. And if he doesn't trust you, then why in the name of John Moses Browning should you trust him? -- L. Neil Smith, concerning private firearms ownership nqs@tmcom.com | Blog: http://tigger.tmcom.com/~nqs/blogger.html GPG key can be found at: http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/ | Geek Code: http://tigger.tmcom.com/~nqs/geek_code.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+s00vojW9aOH101IRAs/4AJ4mTcP+8aGhRuyqJvkX7hMN6JaHAQCggUHV F7j00F4YGL6T1bg08b+deqU= =N4cq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thursday 01 May 2003 07:16, expatriate wrote:
Greetings Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've come across a situation where I might need the assistance of someone more experienced. I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: 0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
TIA and Cheers
I think 8.2 could do this just fine assuming the people you are talking about are reasonably competent computer *users*... i.e. they can usually follow menus and/or find they way through menu and comprehend what the menus are allowing them to do. My wife (she wasn't at the time) switched to SuSE 8.0 from WindowsME overnight with very few problems. Understand, her main use of Windows was email, browsing, and word processing which meant that the switch to Linux was easy to do.... using Kmail, Mozilla, and StarOffice. I would say it took minimal hand-holding to start her off because she was competent with menus and finding things... (and now she's fiddling with her KDE screen savers and background in ways I've never bothered to look into. <g>) On the one hand, there are less people to help with Linux as you suggest, but on the other hand, you (from anywhere) can get into the machine and help with problems (if you set it up for ssh entry) When she did the switch to Linux, she was living 140 miles away from (our eventual house) and so many times when she had a problem, I was not around. In one case, the / partition filled up because some log file took off and filled the disk. I was able to ssh to her machine and find the problem and fix it. I've also put an icon on her desktop remotely, modified her spam settings for email, and many other small fixes all done remotely. Even upgraded moz for her. So... if you set it up right for them and give them some minimal training... I think they could handle it. Depends on how comfortable all of you are with it.
0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
We all know SuSE can do all those things, but... When the ADSL goes wrong, their ISP won't be able to help. That would be down to you, as would securing it. Web browsing and email will probably be OK, until they hit an IE only site. We all know the politics of "any browser", but the web is what it is, in reality. Also, when they want Kazza or IM, you have some work to do. WP and spreadsheets in Openoffice will have to go through conversions if all their contacts use Windows/Office. If the conversions don't work, getting the files readable would be up to you. CD Rom reading/writing would be OK as long as you put one of the GUI CD writers within easy reach. Digital camera might be a problem - a serious one if they get an incompatible one. "Nah, Linux won't drive that - you need to buy a card reader." None of the software which comes with it will work, and the software manual will be useless. Potentially big trouble for you here. As for printing, I expect that printer will work as most HPs are well supported these days. Check first though. And expect problems when they say "my font looks different between the screen and printer". I considered a similar situation when my Dad decided to get a PC. Given he had contacts who use Windows boxes, and was keen to start learning from beginners books and magazines, it was a no brainer. Much as I hated doing it, and much as I wanted to push Linux, he got a Windows box. With 20-20 hindsight, it was undoubtedly the right decision. -- "...our desktop is falling behind stability-wise and feature wise to KDE ...when I went to Mexico in December to the facility where we launched gnome, they had all switched to KDE3." - Miguel de Icaza, March 2003
On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 04:55, Derek Fountain wrote:
Web browsing and email will probably be OK, until they hit an IE only site. We all know the politics of "any browser", but the web is what it is, in
It would probably take minimal training to maybe point out to them how to get Konqueror to trick sites into thinking it's IE. Or use Opera. I wouldn't imagine that would be too tough.
reality. Also, when they want Kazza or IM, you have some work to do.
IM is covered, really. I use MSN, AIM and Yahoo Messenger via Gaim.
Digital camera might be a problem - a serious one if they get an incompatible one. "Nah, Linux won't drive that - you need to buy a card reader." None of the software which comes with it will work, and the software manual will be useless. Potentially big trouble for you here.
Really? I've used 3 or 4 digital cameras with Linux and never had a problem. Like anything else you could check ahead.
I considered a similar situation when my Dad decided to get a PC. Given he had contacts who use Windows boxes, and was keen to start learning from beginners books and magazines, it was a no brainer. Much as I hated doing it, and much as I wanted to push Linux, he got a Windows box. With 20-20 hindsight, it was undoubtedly the right decision.
I did the same with my parents, also. The really important factor is that if you're putting the computer together yourself you can get Windows XP for $95 OEM. So really in that kind of scenario Windows doesn't cost that much more than SuSE and like you said there are valid reasons why it's just less of a headache to give them Windows. There's a lot to like about giving someone Linux. Remote admin with SSH would be a breeze. You can copy the DVD to the hard drive and you can basically install whatever you want via SSH without needing to be there. But the average user is a stupid user and will inevitably come up against some frustration that some other Windows user will be able to help them with. Kind of depressing. Preston
On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 04:16, expatriate wrote:
Greetings Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've come across a situation where I might need the assistance of someone more experienced. I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: 0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
This is just my opinion, mind you, but based on my experience as a computer "you break 'em we fix 'em" professional (and 100% of my clients use Windows), these people are going to need/want *lots* of support whether you go Windows or Linux. Ideally, you would find them a local shop/person who supports Linux fully, install SuSE, set it up exactly as they need with icons on the desktop for the apps they'll use, and all will be well. Certainly SuSE can do everything they need. The setup will take a lot of time whether the os is Linux or Windows. One problem will be when they want to install a new app - say to make greeting cards or a slide show. They'll go to CompUSA or Best Buy which will of course only have Windows software. If there is no one available who knows Linux well, then I'd say have them go with Windows XP Home. But they will need a lot of help with that, too. If you're around, the support will be *you*. I think Linux will have less problems because once it is setup, it just runs forever. Even though XP is the most stable os MS has made, problems *will* arise with it (this is a good thing for me because the children need shoes ;-) ). So bottom line, I'd see who can give them the support they *will* require and that will determine how you set up their new box. HTH, Malke -- Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com Don't Panic!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 May 2003 05:18 am, Marian Routh wrote: > On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 04:16, expatriate wrote: > > Greetings > > Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've > > come across a situation where I might need the assistance of > > someone more experienced. > > I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to > > the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP > > computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the > > computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of > > chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel > > (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have > > no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just > > send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: Sounds like the hubby wouldn't be much of a problem. The wife may find it a little more dificult as she may be used to saving things using m$ file structure. My wife started w/ mac and was always asking me "where did I save this?" Then she moved to winders and asked "where did I save this?" Somehow she accidentally got ahold of an article/interview with Maddog Hall and said, "I can see the benefit to linux", now she mainly uses linux and asks me "where did I save this?" > > 0) ADSL hardware If they don't surf the web much then this may be overkill (dialup is likely to be alot cheaper if their online hours are not high (this is in the US, I understand that Europeans get much higher prices)" > > 1) Web browsing and email > > 2) Word processing and spread sheets Just make sure the printer is giving the output they want. Cups is getting really good but unfortunately numerous options can be a drawback for non-tech types > > 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) k3b works great for me > > 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so > > his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) > > 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer > > > > My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be > > the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more > > of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I > > leave the country for good. > > Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the > > same time, their budget is modest. > > > > So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes > > with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar > > experience? - ------------snip---------------- > One problem will be when they want to install a new app - say to make > greeting cards or a slide show. They'll go to CompUSA or Best Buy > which will of course only have Windows software. Very good point > available who knows Linux well, then I'd say have them go with > Windows XP Home. But they will need a lot of help with that, too. If > you're around, the support will be *you*. I think Linux will have > less problems because once it is setup, it just runs forever. Even > though XP is the most stable os MS has made, problems *will* arise > with it (this is a good thing for me because the children need shoes > ;-) ). So bottom line, I'd see who can give them the support they > *will* require and that will determine how you set up their new box. - -- dh Don't shop at GoogleGear.com! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sTXoBwgxlylUsJARAl3eAJ0UgZGDkw0fdqzbH0Sha/OgzNz1vwCdFH+W h5ikkFK4YYvxkipzi6RNfPc= =+j6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thursday 01 May 2003 13:16, expatriate wrote:
Greetings Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've come across a situation where I might need the assistance of someone more experienced. I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: 0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
TIA and Cheers
If i read between the lines, your neighbours aren't really interested in enhanced features of ANY operating system. He uses the computer to play a game of chess and she uses it as an advanced typewriter. If they really wanted to do more with the computer they would have upgraded years ago. And now they want to be able to write (or reply to) an occasional e-mail and maybe use the web to sell or advertise his artwork. My take on this is that it doesn't really matter which OS they are going to use: It 'll be -different-! They probably won't bother installing new applications because they don't know they need it ;-) and it's scary anyway. If you really want to help your neighbours it will cost you a lot of time setting up the system and instructing them on how to use it: 1. only install for desktop use and only the applications they are really going to use (no need for 3 different e-mail clients either). 2. Tune the desktop in a way they can easily understand it (for example: place icons on it that do exactly what they need and give these names they understand, like "check my e-mail", "play chess", "browse E-bay", "start a new document", "browse my photo's", "burn my documents on a CD"). Keep it as simple as possible. 3. Convert old documents to the new format and make sure that the new default format for saving is something that can be read by most other applications/people (i guess this would be MSWord, Excel) 4. Make sure that all documents of all applications are being saved in the same location, so it's easy to find them back again. 5. Printing should only involve clicking the printer icon or clicking "print" in the menu of the used application. Check that the documents print the way your neighbours expect it. 6. Investigate the way they use their current applications and explain how to -exactly- do the same with the new versions. 7. Explain -every- "new" application: How to reply to an e-mail, how to use the addressbook, how to attach a document, how to download the photo's from the camera, how to upload a photo to E-bay, how to use the CD-burning application. Let them do this themselves a few times until they are comfortable with it. 8. Make the system secure. Install a well configured firewall and configure automated updating. Regarding support: If you want to be able to help your neighbours after you've moved, be shure to install remote management software that gets activated automatically at boot and don't shut yourselve out with too secure firewall settings (check!) About the choice between Linux and Windows: I don't think it really matters in terms of ease of use as long as you set it up the way i explained above. You might be right with your assumption that help from others then yourself is easier if the OS is Windows, but i've seen "help" from other Windows users that totally screwed up systems more then i'd like to remember. On the other hand, if you don't want to support them after you've gone elsewhere, who would solve their problems? Costs: Linux/Gnu doesn't cost a dime. If they are going to use Windows they need to pay for at least the OS. The rest can also be done with free software (OpenOffice, VNC, etc.). Are you shure they need ADSL? Of course it makes everything (remote support, updating, making internet connection) a lot easier, but it might be a lot cheaper for them to just use a modem. That's all i can think of right now. Let us know your and your neighbours' decision. regards, Marcel
I thank all of you for your suggestions. I've been summarily well informed. I've decided to try the following: 1) Build a dual-boot machine 2) Set them up with two Linux accounts. Create an easy-to-deal-with environment and test out the OpenOffice<->Word/Excel conversions 3) Use Netscape/Mozilla as the browser. 4) Let them try it out for a few weeks. 5) If they have too much trouble, switch them over to Microsoft and buy MS Office,Anti Virus stuff and whatever else. Wash my hands. I tried to explain in as much detail as needed what the issues were with MS and Linux. I was trying my best to be even handed. I believe they need broadband because they don't want to tie up their line and don't want a second line. At ~£22/month it is a pretty good deal. Also, I believe once he learns about the WWW he'll be surfing regularly. They are not dumb in any way, they are more of the artist types. My wife thinks I'm crazy for not starting them with Windows (she's not a Microsoft lover either and has an MSEE to boot) but I'm thinking ahead with the endless upgrade costs, restrictive licensing issues and the viral issues. I have some further questions: 1) KDE or Gnome? I write software for a living so I'm used to command-line. I personally use Gnome but I find I open terminals all the time anyway. For ease of digital camera IO and dragging and dropping files into a writable CDROM I'd like some advice. 2) Which R/W CDROM ? The motherboard will be ASUS since I already know the beast. TIAA & Cheers Marcel Broekman wrote:
On Thursday 01 May 2003 13:16, expatriate wrote:
Greetings Being the de facto neighbourhood computer expert/admin/geek, I've come across a situation where I might need the assistance of someone more experienced. I've volunteered to facilitate bringing a couple from the 20th to the 21st century. Their current system is a 10+ years old HP computer with a 40MB disk running Windows 3.11. He rarely uses the computer and most of his exposure to it is an occasional game of chess. She does a fair amount of Word (MS Word 6.0) and Excel (didn't check but probably the same vintage). At present, they have no internet connectivity but they feel the pressure ( "can't I just send you an email?"). I've established their needs as follows: 0) ADSL hardware 1) Web browsing and email 2) Word processing and spread sheets 3) CDROM reading/writing (don't have writing abilities at present) 4) Ability to get digital camera pictures into their computer so his artwork can be placed on eBay (have yet to get camera) 5) Printing to an HP 660 printer
My concern is that if I build this for them with Linux, I would be the only local source of help. If I build this with Windows, more of their friends could assist them when I'm not around or when I leave the country for good. Obviously I would prefer not to promote Microsoft products. At the same time, their budget is modest.
So I guess the main questions are: Can Suse 8.2 handle neophytes with limited point and click experience? Can anyone share a similar experience?
TIA and Cheers
If i read between the lines, your neighbours aren't really interested in enhanced features of ANY operating system. He uses the computer to play a game of chess and she uses it as an advanced typewriter. If they really wanted to do more with the computer they would have upgraded years ago. And now they want to be able to write (or reply to) an occasional e-mail and maybe use the web to sell or advertise his artwork. My take on this is that it doesn't really matter which OS they are going to use: It 'll be -different-! They probably won't bother installing new applications because they don't know they need it ;-) and it's scary anyway. If you really want to help your neighbours it will cost you a lot of time setting up the system and instructing them on how to use it:
1. only install for desktop use and only the applications they are really going to use (no need for 3 different e-mail clients either). 2. Tune the desktop in a way they can easily understand it (for example: place icons on it that do exactly what they need and give these names they understand, like "check my e-mail", "play chess", "browse E-bay", "start a new document", "browse my photo's", "burn my documents on a CD"). Keep it as simple as possible. 3. Convert old documents to the new format and make sure that the new default format for saving is something that can be read by most other applications/people (i guess this would be MSWord, Excel) 4. Make sure that all documents of all applications are being saved in the same location, so it's easy to find them back again. 5. Printing should only involve clicking the printer icon or clicking "print" in the menu of the used application. Check that the documents print the way your neighbours expect it. 6. Investigate the way they use their current applications and explain how to -exactly- do the same with the new versions. 7. Explain -every- "new" application: How to reply to an e-mail, how to use the addressbook, how to attach a document, how to download the photo's from the camera, how to upload a photo to E-bay, how to use the CD-burning application. Let them do this themselves a few times until they are comfortable with it. 8. Make the system secure. Install a well configured firewall and configure automated updating.
Regarding support: If you want to be able to help your neighbours after you've moved, be shure to install remote management software that gets activated automatically at boot and don't shut yourselve out with too secure firewall settings (check!)
About the choice between Linux and Windows: I don't think it really matters in terms of ease of use as long as you set it up the way i explained above. You might be right with your assumption that help from others then yourself is easier if the OS is Windows, but i've seen "help" from other Windows users that totally screwed up systems more then i'd like to remember. On the other hand, if you don't want to support them after you've gone elsewhere, who would solve their problems?
Costs: Linux/Gnu doesn't cost a dime. If they are going to use Windows they need to pay for at least the OS. The rest can also be done with free software (OpenOffice, VNC, etc.). Are you shure they need ADSL? Of course it makes everything (remote support, updating, making internet connection) a lot easier, but it might be a lot cheaper for them to just use a modem.
That's all i can think of right now. Let us know your and your neighbours' decision.
regards, Marcel
1) KDE or Gnome? I write software for a living so I'm used to command-line. I personally use Gnome but I find I open terminals all the time anyway. For ease of digital camera IO and dragging and dropping files into a writable CDROM I'd like some advice.
KDE. GNOME is still in the "getting there" stage. SuSE provide a decent KDE desktop to start with.
2) Which R/W CDROM ? The motherboard will be ASUS since I already know the beast.
Just about any, I'd have thought! -- "...our desktop is falling behind stability-wise and feature wise to KDE ...when I went to Mexico in December to the facility where we launched gnome, they had all switched to KDE3." - Miguel de Icaza, March 2003
The 03.05.02 at 11:54, expatriate wrote:
I have some further questions: 1) KDE or Gnome?
Both :-) It is simple enough to change from one to the other when login, so... why not? Let them choose. Contrary to windows, you have many environments to choose from, even depending on your mood ;-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Friday 02 May 2003 12:54, expatriate wrote:
I tried to explain in as much detail as needed what the issues were with MS and Linux. I was trying my best to be even handed. I believe they need broadband because they don't want to tie up their line and don't want a second line. At ~£22/month it is a pretty good deal. Also, I believe once he learns about the WWW he'll be surfing regularly. They are not dumb in any way, they are more of the artist types.
I hope you didn't think that i thought they were dumb. I just noted from what you wrote that they just weren't really interested in computers. And let's be honest: there is more in this world then computers (or so i'm told ;-) )
My wife thinks I'm crazy for not starting them with Windows (she's not a Microsoft lover either and has an MSEE to boot) but I'm thinking ahead with the endless upgrade costs, restrictive licensing issues and the viral issues.
When you think about it, (avoiding infection from) virusses might be the best reason for these people to use Linux.
I have some further questions: 1) KDE or Gnome? I write software for a living so I'm used to command-line. I personally use Gnome but I find I open terminals all the time anyway. For ease of digital camera IO and dragging and dropping files into a writable CDROM I'd like some advice.
KDE has the best desktop IMO, but maybe also has too many confusing choices, so i wouldn't know what to choose for them.
2) Which R/W CDROM ? The motherboard will be ASUS since I already know the beast.
It doesn't really make a difference for Linux. Read a few tests and see which ones have best price/performance ratio. cheers, Marcel
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If i read between the lines, your neighbours aren't really interested in enhanced features of ANY operating system. He uses the computer to play a game of chess and she uses it as an advanced typewriter. If they really wanted to do more with the computer they would have upgraded years ago. And now they want to be able to write (or reply to) an occasional e-mail and maybe use the web to sell or advertise his artwork. My take on this is that it doesn't really matter which OS they are going to use: It 'll be -different-! They probably won't bother installing new applications because they don't know they need it ;-) and it's scary anyway. If you really want to help your neighbours it will cost you a lot of time setting up the system and instructing them on how to use it:
1. only install for desktop use and only the applications they are really going to use (no need for 3 different e-mail clients either). 2. Tune the desktop in a way they can easily understand it (for example: place icons on it that do exactly what they need and give these names they understand, like "check my e-mail", "play chess", "browse E-bay", "start a new document", "browse my photo's", "burn my documents on a CD"). Keep it as simple as possible.
I totally agree here. Essentially what he's suggesting is exactly what the big OEMs do (read DELL, HP, Gateway, etc..). If you really wanted to do this comprehensively, you could do as Marcel suggests and also include preset things such as setting an icon for Noatun/Xmms and getting it set for both the cd devices and to read saved files (or perhaps not saved). Likewise, since you've not mentioned the particular chess game he uses one might like to see which "chess" game he would perfer by comparing it to the one he uses. Maybe setting up Xboard will be fine, but then again it my be too different for him. Fortunately, SuSE include several, as well as a plethora from sourceforge and freshmeat. You might also set up a symlink/icon to a script that could backup/burn things such as a set of documents, so they just need to put the cd in and click and go (OMG, sounded too much like Lindows :-/ ).
3. Convert old documents to the new format and make sure that the new default format for saving is something that can be read by most other applications/people (i guess this would be MSWord, Excel)
Very important IMHO, My mom has problems with cut and pasting of URL in email using XP, I shutter at the aspect of having her try to figure what doc format to use appropriately in a Linux environment - Ouch, my eyes hurt!
4. Make sure that all documents of all applications are being saved in the same location, so it's easy to find them back again.
5. Printing should only involve clicking the printer icon or clicking "print" in the menu of the used application. Check that the documents print the way your neighbours expect it. 6. Investigate the way they use their current applications and explain how to -exactly- do the same with the new versions. 7. Explain -every- "new" application: How to reply to an e-mail, how to use the addressbook, how to attach a document, how to download the photo's from the camera, how to upload a photo to E-bay, how to use the CD-burning application. Let them do this themselves a few times until they are comfortable with it. 8. Make the system secure. Install a well configured firewall and configure automated updating.
Regarding support: If you want to be able to help your neighbours after you've moved, be shure to install remote management software that gets activated automatically at boot and don't shut yourselve out with too secure firewall settings (check!)
I think Marcels suggestions essentially hit the nail on the head. Basically the best road for you to take IMHO is to act as a quasi-vendor (e.g. DELL et al). I also wonder if creating a partition structure so that there home dirs can be segregated and and then creating an ISO image of the root system wouldn't be another thing to consider. I mean if the system should take a dump than having a quasi "restore" disk wouldn't be bad. The only problem is if, via an automated YOU set up, that crucial updates would be blown out when the ISO of the root system overwrites the partitions. Hmmm! Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+srYm7WVLiDrqeksRAmOhAJ9/kfZaIhCt6ERoMO6Q7axbd208KwCbBKKD pgSp+Px+ZgvSmshRaZnWVP0= =DEUb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (12)
-
Anders Johansson -
Bruce Marshall -
Carlos E. R. -
Curtis Rey -
David Herman -
Derek Fountain -
expatriate -
Joe Dufresne -
Marcel Broekman -
Marian Routh -
Preston Crawford -
Silviu Marin-Caea