El 06/05/13 08:38, Anton Aylward escribió: Looks

what's there: pid files.

pid files there may be a leftover, while systemd supports pidfiles, it is not the prefered way to track the process number.. the daemons creating them, 99% of the time do it in a racy fashion; reason being, no standard api to create pidfiles in libc, yay! (freebsd has pidfile_*() api though) so a workaround kicks in, namely an inotify watch is placed on the pidfile for a period of seconds, if the pidfile never appears the service is later marked as "broken". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/06/2013 09:18 PM:

(which is a darn good reason not to move /tmp to being RAM based, as it gets used for large files sometimes, and .. oops. there goes your memory!...;-)

Or NOT as the case may be. First, a tmpfs is mapped to memory in a way that slightly more efficient than a disk based FS. Yes, disk based FSs are mapped to memory, buffers, for reading writing inodes and super-blocks as well as shuffling the B-trees and indexes and more. By comparison a tmps is incredibly light weight. Secondly, Linux uses a demand paged virtual memory so you're never going to run out of memory, for whatever value of 'never' applies. And it does apply here. If that memory is needed by a process it can be paged out to swap. Thirdly, when it can, and that certainly applies for executables, Linux and late model UNIX tries to "Map" a file into memory so the file is actually demand paged - just like above. Yes a programmer can open a file so its not mapped, thinking he's smarter than the system designer and knows better about that is and is not efficient, but I'd be reluctant to hire such people as that reasoning would only apply in special cases such as databases and the like. I think you're worrying about something that isn't a concern. Now if we're talking about my memory starved box from The Closet Of Anxieties ... no, its still a NOT, because I'm not doing anything on such a box that involves big files. Its only a small box... -- The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/06/2013 10:50 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If, for example, gimp needs to store a temporary file of 4 GB in /tmp, in my computer that means it will swap (I have 8GiB ram, and swap is used already). Swap being used that lot means that most of the system applications will be impacted. On the other hand, if /tmp is disk, only gimp is impacted.

Or... I read comments the other day of some one using k3b. It turned out that dvd images were going to /tmp - again, huge usage.

Worse: many people nowdays do not even create swap! They think that computers with 8 GiB are big enough.

Both of those cases are bugs in the applications, they must create those files in /var/tmp instead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 05/06/2013 10:50 PM:

On Monday, 2013-05-06 at 21:50 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Or NOT as the case may be.

...

First, a tmpfs is mapped to memory in a way that slightly more efficient than a disk based FS. Yes, disk based FSs are mapped to memory, buffers, for reading writing inodes and super-blocks as well as shuffling the B-trees and indexes and more. By comparison a tmps is incredibly light weight.

...

Secondly, Linux uses a demand paged virtual memory so you're never going to run out of memory, for whatever value of 'never' applies. And it does apply here. If that memory is needed by a process it can be paged out to swap.

If, for example, gimp needs to store a temporary file of 4 GB in /tmp, in my computer that means it will swap (I have 8GiB ram, and swap is used already). Swap being used that lot means that most of the system applications will be impacted. On the other hand, if /tmp is disk, only gimp is impacted.

Or... I read comments the other day of some one using k3b. It turned out that dvd images were going to /tmp - again, huge usage.

Worse: many people nowdays do not even create swap! They think that computers with 8 GiB are big enough.

No, thanks, I do not want /tmp in RAM.

I did say "as the case may be". I did not address performance. You chose to. "There's more than one way to do it". There are many other cases where the performance boost of a tempfile in memory is a Good Thing. Some programs still hold over from the days before virtual memory and they could not keep their 'arrays' in memory so "overflowed' to disk. Yes, they need to be redesigned so that the arrays are in memory and they rely on the system paging in and out (to swap) as needed rather than explicitly swapping in and out to a temporary file. YMMV. Lets face it, for any context you choose to define you can find a case where it is optimal for one thing and pessimal for another. In general, optimizing for any one thing has a cost elsewhere and a general purpose compromise that is "good enough" for most things is also going to be sub-optimal for all those same things. If you want a system that's optimized for burning DVDs, that's fine. If you want to use the system for detailed photo editing, that's fine. You can optimise for each. The flexibility and ease of such of Linux is one of its great strengths. But please don't bitch that that when you have a general purpose config that it isn't optimal for everything you could throw at it. -- "What we have learned from others becomes our own through reflection". - Ralph Emerson. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

From: Anton Aylward To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: why /var/run and /run these two directories have absolutely the same contents? Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 21:50:37 -0400 Linda Walsh said the following on 05/06/2013 09:18 PM:

(which is a darn good reason not to move /tmp to being RAM based, as it gets used for large files sometimes, and .. oops. there goes your memory!...;-)

Or NOT as the case may be. First, a tmpfs is mapped to memory in a way that slightly more efficient than a disk based FS. Yes, disk based FSs are mapped to memory, buffers, for reading writing inodes and super-blocks as well as shuffling the B-trees and indexes and more. By comparison a tmps is incredibly light weight. Secondly, Linux uses a demand paged virtual memory so you're never going to run out of memory, for whatever value of 'never' applies. And it does apply here. If that memory is needed by a process it can be paged out to swap. -----Original Message----- It makes me wonder if you ever used k3b or kiwi.... Or are you blessed with 32GB unused mem or more at home? Swap? Some systems don't use swap, as it is a perfect way of destroying ssd. (or do you use your mem as swap device ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet said the following on 05/07/2013 03:06 AM:

From: Anton Aylward

-----Original Message-----

Please don't reply to BOTH the list AND me - its not necessary, I do read the list. Isn't there something about that in the guidelines? -- One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's all right not to know anything. That to me is far more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. - Carl Sagan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Linda Walsh [05-07-13 19:34]:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Hans Witvliet said the following on 05/07/2013 03:06 AM:

...

From: Anton Aylward -----Original Message----- Please don't reply to BOTH the list AND me - its not necessary, I do read the list. > Isn't there something about that in the guidelines?

---

That nice for you, you selfish bastard... but it violates normal Internet standards. A reply all is suppose to send something to you and to the list, by default.

My, my, Linda! Please control yourself. It is *you* who has chosen to deviate from the locally accepted and expected standards.

You and others on this list ask them to adapt to your private and selfish behaviors, and create problems by posting this nonsense to the list when you could have just as easily sent it to the person off list.

I suppose you drive on the right side of the road where-ever you are rather than follow the local laws/standards as most of the world does drive on the right side.

The garbage from the whiners is the most offensive thing about those who follow internet rules and post copies to both.

Get a frickin email filter and get a life -- and stop harassing everyone who doesn't know about the special rules for the people on this who are too ignorant to setup filters.

Love ya Anton, but come on! You can filter, it's not hard.

True, one can filter: :0: * ^From:.*suse\@tlinx\.org /dev/null -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 05/07/2013 08:50 PM:

...

I suppose you drive on the right side of the road where-ever you are rather than follow the local laws/standards as most of the world does drive on the right side.

Don't be silly, Patrick, she simply sits in the left hand seat no latter where the steering wheel is.

I mean, is that that what North Americans always do when the visit England?

No. We rent a cab so we don't have to deal with those crazy drivers that drive on the wrong side of the street. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/8/2013 2:42 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:

It's this list that standards that don't follow the internet standards it's not a provincial standard as this list sports. *sigh*

I'm So. Tired. Of. This. Because some people want you to take your shoes off in their house to keep the carpet clean, do you tread on it with muddy boots since it's not a universal standard? It is the standards of *this* list. It is how *this* list does it. It is how *this* list will probably continue to do it. Apparently the majority can figure this out. Instead of trolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllling so damn much, just leave. if you don't like the way the list is doing something, leave. Because I'm tired of threads being hijacked and going off topic over *this* subject over and over and over and over and over and over, did I mention and over. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD wrote:

the person presenting himself here as "Linda Walsh" has proven to be nothing other than one who wishes maintain compatibility with previous suse releases going into the future upgrades.

Your attitude proves the point. You don't care. Maybe I do care, which is why I am speaking up.

i've not read all of "Linda's" post

Then you know little about me or my history. I'm sure archives are available. I've been using suse since early 2000's.

but of those that i have, i've not seen _one_ which discovered and presented a single valid bug or in any other way moved this community toward the better product it strives to produce.

You are so full of it. Check the bug DB for 1 For 2, just because I disagree with the direction -- I'm a bad person. You call the apple and walled gardens better. I don't see it that way, but people who give up liberty and choice for the latest game app deserve what they get.

enough already.

I agree. You want to do what you want -- then stop screwing over those people for whom the product already works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/08/2013 08:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Wednesday, 2013-05-08 at 17:23 +0200, DenverD wrote:

...

the person presenting himself here as "Linda Walsh" has proven to be nothing other than one who wishes to disrupt and sow seeds of discord.

i've not read all of "Linda's" post, but of those that i have, i've not seen _one_ which discovered and presented a single valid bug or in any other way moved this community toward the better product it strives to produce.

No, sometimes she points at valid real problems. She spoils the issue by the way she talks and how much she deviates from the "standards" or "customs", but there are some points in what she says.

Which is unfortunate.

as said, i had not followed all 'Linda' rants.. and, yes it is unfortunate there are occasional good points, because i doubt i am the only one here who, due to the modus operandi, just won't bother to read much s/he posts. and avoids all threads 'Linda' originates or hijacks/dominates.. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:10 PM, DenverD wrote:

On 05/08/2013 08:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

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On Wednesday, 2013-05-08 at 17:23 +0200, DenverD wrote:

...

the person presenting himself here as "Linda Walsh" has proven to be nothing other than one who wishes to disrupt and sow seeds of discord.

i've not read all of "Linda's" post, but of those that i have, i've not seen _one_ which discovered and presented a single valid bug or in any other way moved this community toward the better product it strives to produce.

No, sometimes she points at valid real problems. She spoils the issue by the way she talks and how much she deviates from the "standards" or "customs", but there are some points in what she says.

Which is unfortunate.

as said, i had not followed all 'Linda' rants..

and, yes it is unfortunate there are occasional good points, because i doubt i am the only one here who, due to the modus operandi, just won't bother to read much s/he posts.

and avoids all threads 'Linda' originates or hijacks/dominates..

dd

In general I find Linda very knowledgeable. I think the fundamental conflict is she is using lots of customized software, so things start to fall apart for her that don't fall apart for other people. Second, she is not using the openSUSE packaging solution OBS (build.opensuse.org) in anyway. There is nothing wrong with that, but openSUSE is now 100% built via OBS and I suspect OBS/osc is the only building mechanism used to test the openSUSE packages. When she builds without the benefit of that infrastructure, she hits roadblocks that no one else hits and it gets very frustrating for all involved. You start with the above and add in high degree of tenaciousness and I think Linda is the result. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sorry sent this to wrong list... Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 2013-05-08 at 17:23 +0200, DenverD wrote:

...

...

the person presenting himself here as "Linda Walsh" has proven to be nothing other than one who wishes to disrupt and sow seeds of discord.

i've not read all of "Linda's" post, but of those that i have, i've not seen _one_ which discovered and presented a single valid bug or in any other way moved this community toward the better product it strives to produce.

No, sometimes she points at valid real problems. She spoils the issue by the way she talks and how much she deviates from the "standards" or "customs", but there are some points in what she says.

Which is unfortunate.

For that I apologize -- I soften have too much on my plate to not mess things like that up. It's like the double-post -- Usually I don't, but when tired... or beat... I sometimes have. I also tend to not back down just because people order me to. I had a beagle like me, but worse... the other 3 if you swatted them on the butt, they'd back down, but one of them -- always got more violent.. to him, he would die before backing down. I had to figure out a different way to deal with him that wouldn't hurt him Found he didn't like chamomile scented spray... (2-3 drops/pint)...it got so I would only have to reach for the bottle and he'd run off or stop... though sometimes he'd be doing something cute... and just irritating me..... and then he's just throw those puppy dog eyes at me and guilt me out. He one 90% of the arguments we had!...not because he was that strong, but when I didn't back down, and was very firm, he would get deathly depressed. Not want to play, not want to do anything...If I wanted him around, I had to let him 'win' most of the time. I really shouldn't use Shannon as a comparison, as honestly, I'm alot more reasonable. It's when people are unreasonable in my direction -- I tend to respond in kind. But when people are reasonable... I help them work for solutions that work for both of us. I think I also became a bit less tolerant when my last dog died about 15 months ago...still depressing. Beagles bring so much joy with them, its hard to stay upset... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 09:57 PM:

...

I also tend to not back down just because people order me to.

You need to work on a few things, then.

* "Back off and cool down" is not so much an order as "good tactical advice"

Yeah... cool down is always a good one. But back off is usually meant to mean "go away, you bother me"...and it doesn't solve anything -- because those who are "do"ers (*cough*), are still busying working to do the things that are causing problems.

* Going against the mainstream just for the sake of it, are because you feel its important 'not to be one of the herd' can mean you miss out on a lot and waste a lot of energy by being contrarian.

---- Absolutely! (Or should I say, to the contrary ;-)) I much prefer it when I'm closer to the mainstream... Much less buffeting. I strongly try not to be contrarian -- going against the mainstream "for the sake of it" is not being independent -- it's still letting your life be run by your reactions to others

* Saying "you're all wrong" is never useful

Um.... I've said that deliberate sabotage is wrong. I've said that the current design is being forcefully shoved down people's throats -- when it could have been done in a compatible manner. When I have asked why it wasn't -- I get no answers... so I know that it's being done for some reason they feel they have to hide.

* "Because that's the way we've always done it" is not a valid argument against progress, even if the progress is flawed.

---- There's two kinds of progress -- one where you bring the other people along, and the other where you exterminate those who think and believe differently. Guess which is going on here... and guess which I don't like no matter which side of the progress I'm on? I've even said I would like systemd if I could do what they suggest ON THE SYSTEMD PAGE --- to optimize your system, they recommend booting without an INITRD!!! If suse would support what the systemd people suggest, this wouldn't be an issue. It's some people at suse who are set on some incompatible solution... one which they wipe out files and put in dummies to force you into. That's deliberate computer sabotage... Since when is that acceptable.

* "Why don't you try .." isn't an order, but you should try the suggestion rather than taking an academic stance on things won't work. many of here are what amounts to 'engineers' in that we are concerned with building things that work, rather than computer theoreticians.

--- My degree is in engineering. Not math. If it was working, it wouldn't I and others wouldn't be having problems. If *design* things right -- they keep on working for new things and old, and people never know things changed. A badly done change is one that is disruptive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

Ye gads! How much farther off topic are you going to take this?

Off topic? I was following the topic...and even had the good sense to rename/resubject my email as it transitioned... That used to be considered polite behavior. It's not like I started a new post in the middle of one... It's that the conversation drifted that way, though alot more so than I would have intended for my not so seriously meant posting in reply to on-list criticism about following internet rules V list rules... I think the bottom line is not to post such feedback on list because it invites more discussion. You know this thread has gone off topic, so don't follow the thread. You do have a threaded reader don't you? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-05-07 at 23:42 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:

Um... last I heard this list was part of the internet.

It's this list that standards that don't follow the internet standards it's not a provincial standard as this list sports.

All sites have their own set of rules. Please follow and respect the rules and this site and do not argue. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGKa4kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UthACdEr69IEbf/3AL15etcrYkrssK AlsAn1Ugdbw41k6md0JDBNRlbra6t7ya =8la/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On May 08th 2013 Linda Walsh wrote:

...

It's this list that standards that don't follow the internet standards it's not a provincial standard as this list sports.

Then show me the RFC that tells so. Replying to the list and private is done by many, but that doesn't make it correct. And just guess why any MUA that's worth it's salt has a 'reply to list' function? Hint: not because this lone ml wishes it to be so.

Philipp

RFC 882 STANDARD FOR THE FORMAT OF ARPA INTERNET TEXT MESSAGES... among other sections there is this one in specific: 4.4.4. AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO For systems which automatically generate address lists for replies to messages, the following recommendations are made: o The "Sender" field mailbox should be sent notices of any problems in transport or delivery of the original messages. If there is no "Sender" field, then the "From" field mailbox should be used. o The "Sender" field mailbox should NEVER be used automatically, in a recipient's reply message. o If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply should go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to the address(es) indicated in the "From" field. August 13, 1982 - 22 - RFC #822 Standard for ARPA Internet Text Messages o If there is a "From" field, but no "Reply-To" field, <<<<< the reply should be sent to the address(es) indicated <<<<< in the "From" field. <<<<<< Sometimes, a recipient may actually wish to communicate with the person that initiated the message transfer. In such cases, it is reasonable to use the "Sender" address. This recommendation is intended only for automated use of <<<<< originator-fields and is not intended to suggest that replies <<<<< may not also be sent to other recipients of messages. It is <<<<< up to the respective mail-handling programs to decide what additional facilities will be provided. Examples are provided in Appendix A. ================== A reply should always be sent to the 'Reply-To' address, and, if it does not exist, then it *must* be sent to the 'From' address. Sending to a list is *optional*. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 10:13 PM:

RFC 882 STANDARD FOR THE FORMAT OF ARPA INTERNET TEXT MESSAGES...

Well 882 has long since been outdated and replaced, but that's beside the point Better to quote http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html"

People still using these two documents to debate the issue are wasting everybody's time. The issue was definitively settled in 2001, and Chip won. .... In April of 2001, the IETF issued af new document, RFC 2822, which obsoletes RFC 822. In this new RFC, the author addresses the Reply-To header field in a few places, but the most relevant to this discussion is the following in section 3.6.2 "Originator fields": When the "Reply-To:" field is present, it indicates the mailbox(es) to which the author of the message suggests that replies be sent. Your list software is not "the author of the message", so it must not set or in any way meddle with the Reply-To header field. That field exists for the author and the author alone. If your list munges it, you are violating the standard. </quote> It then goes on to say <quote> RFC 2369 specifies, in section 3.4, the List-Post header field: The List-Post field describes the method for posting to the list. This is typically the address of the list, but MAY be a moderator, or potentially some other form of submission. For the special case of a list that does not allow posting (e.g., an announcements list), the List-Post field may contain the special value "NO". Modern mail list software sets this header field, or provides some mechanism for the administrator to set it. </quote> And LO! there in the message headers is the List-Post field: Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org List-Help: mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org List-Archive: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/ I think the author of that article put it very nicely when he sys <quote> People want their mail client to be consistent. When they hit "reply" they want it to go to the person who wrote the message. When they hit "reply to all", they want it to also go to everyone who received it. Most people understand this by now, since it's how their mail reader has worked for every email they've ever gotten. Your list shouldn't be any different. </quote> At the very least, viewing the index at the IETF gives 0822 STANDARD FOR THE FORMAT OF ARPA INTERNET TEXT MESSAGES. D. Crocker. August 1982. (Format: TXT=106299 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC0733) (Obsoleted by RFC2822) (Updated by RFC1123, RFC2156, RFC1327, RFC1138, RFC1148) (Also STD0011) (Status: INTERNET STANDARD) Always check for updates to standards! Oh, and check for errata as well <quote src="http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.php"> Published RFCs never change. Although every published RFC has been submitted to careful proofreading by the RFC Editor and the author(s), errors do sometimes go undetected. Use the form on this page to query the errata database for entries related to an RFC. Errata are for the RFCs as available from rfc-editor.org. Search results from the RFC search engine will include hyperlinks to any corresponding errata entries. </quote> And yes, RFC822 has errata. So does RFC2822. -- A generation which ignores history has no past and no future. Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988), The Notebooks of Lazurus Long -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Van Lone said the following on 05/09/2013 09:14 AM:

<snip>

.fantastic post - thank you for sorting through the RFCs to give us a definitive understanding of the current standard

Peter

Much appreciated, but to be fair, it took me longer to type in and cut and paste than to look up. Its not that I know the RFCs by heart, but my Google-FU sometimes hits rich and I do know to look at the RFC indexes first to see revisions and errata, just as some of us are wise (or wizened) enough to do things like read the release notes. To be further fair, some of the RFCs were bombs - in both senses. Some were ideas from vendors that were trying to justify their products and were not about interoperability or the "I tried this and it worked, how about you try it and tell me what you find or if you can refine it" which is the real thread running though the RFCs. The response to a few, thankfully very few, was a "nah, there's a better way, try this instead". So we've moved forward by innovation and openness. And then there are the April First RFCs ... As for "*current* standard": keep watching that space. And do remember, some are classed as "Best Practices". -- You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious, nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave. Sydney Smith -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-05-09 at 00:34 +0930, Rodney Baker wrote:

The right side is the wrong side - the left side is the correct side.

:-)

Why, are you still riding horses on the road, so that you need confront incoming horsemen with the sword hand? >:-P X'-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGKbBMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XzMACfd/rNKG5Qk3hW60enAjXu8nK1 IYkAn3AD1bz5+7EYFwJwtKgkp3oicbUT =0PnF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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However, if I were using gmail, then I would get first the direct copy, and the copy coming from the list would be considered as duplicate and removed by gmail. /That/ is indeed a problem for gmail users, because they may think that they got a private answer and not one on the list.

There are reasons I don't use gmail... gmail sorts your email how google sees fit and uses it for their purposes...I don't even keep my email on an ISP, but locally...(which has minuses as well as pluses). I sort mine how I see fit.

Thus, Linda, the polite thing to do in these lists is to send only a copy to the mail list. This is explained in the rules (they are published).

See previous email... I already know Anton is one step ahead of the game from his email addr. He's not clueless. I wouldn't dare go off on someone if they were... it would just be ....'wrong'...

Also, you are using obsolete mail software, Thunderbird/2.0.0.24. If you use instead a recent version you will see that there is a button to click that replies to the mail list, instead of using "reply to all". It is very easy.

---- Bah....I just got all it's quirks working again (windows had corrupted some db files) -- one of which is "Threadvis" -- which will stop working in TB3 or higher unless you have all your email cached locally. Ug... Just check on the site, and some people are having problems with it working with the latest versions as well... but starting in 3.x he relies on the all-content index kept by thunderbird on it's local store -- which is why they, by default, download all your IMAP mail into your local direct (on windows it's your "roaming user profile(!)"... where it gets uploaded and downloaded on logoff/on and adds bout 4-6G of size to your profile...)... Lame. I'm hoping to get 'X' to run faster and I can run more utils from my server (including tbird and ff).. though even there -- on the same damn server, tbird tries do download all the email from the IMAP server from my home directory into it's own private cache dir in my home dir!!!... ARG!!! ||:0<- banging head

It is your fault if you reply to all and do not delete the private copy, per the list rules. It is also your fault to not use current software with a reply to list button.

reply to list isn't a standard yet, so my emailer isn't really outdated, -- it just runs leaner.

So please, do not get angry if people tell you not to send double mails.

---- Did you really think my response was 'angry'?... I tried to lay enough clues... try mock indignation. It wasn't about me this time, was about someone else, so I felt more free to jump in and speak my mind in a way that I thought would be understood to be less that deadly serious. A calculated risk on the internet...but one I didn't think Anton would take personally. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 03:27 AM:

but one I didn't think Anton would take personally.

Anton takes very little personally .... a few days later. Linda: you report a lot of technical problems with your own systems to the list. I must admit it makes me wonder why you have these problems and and others, not least of all myself, don't. I re-read your problems with later versions of T'Bird. I've been happily using it since Mozilla calved it off as its own product. As I've commented before, I use fetchmail to download onto a 'server' and access via IMAP from whatever workstation I'm at (which might even be over a ssh tunnel). Yes, I could configure all or specific folders to download from the IMAP server to a local cache but I've chose not to use that configuration option. Note: Its a configuration option. Yes T'Bird in IMAP mode will download the header/envelope information. (And cache it for the next startup) How else can it display that information - subject, date, from, status - and the number of messages in the folders? Please don't confuse downloading headers with downloading body. Does T'Bird download the body? Damn right it does! How else can you read the message! Does it cache that? Apparently so: move up and down the list when you have 3-panel set up or go to another folder then come back. No delay in viewing a message you've already viewed. Does the cache expire? Of course it does. Can you configure it? Of course you can: user_pref("browser.cache.disk.capacity", 358400); user_pref("browser.cache.disk.smart_size_cached_value", 204800); There are other cache settings too - see the documentation. Of course you may not have this capability in old versions such as 2.00.0.24, these are from 17.0.5 Problems? Yes I have lots of them! They all get back to the plugins and extensions, mostly that the developers don't keep up to date. So then, increasingly confused as to your reasoning why you are stuck on 2.0.0.24 when so many of us are on 17.x I see you mention that your X isn't fast enough. That's why you're on 2.0.0.24? You also mentioned the footprint of T'Bird - presumably some of that is caching, but you might be confusing that with indexing. That was where I ROTFLMAO'd. Heck, we've just been discussing 1TB /tmp files and you're worried about T'Bird caching headers! But then you mentioned

I'm hoping to get 'X' to run faster

Well it that's your problem then it isn't really a T'Bird problem. But I don't think so. The crippled box from the Closet of Anxieties has an 800MHz single threaded CPU: $ lscpu Architecture: i686 CPU op-mode(s): 32-bit Byte Order: Little Endian CPU(s): 1 On-line CPU(s) list: 0 Thread(s) per core: 1 Core(s) per socket: 1 Socket(s): 1 Vendor ID: GenuineIntel CPU family: 6 Model: 11 Stepping: 1 CPU MHz: 801.794 BogoMIPS: 1603.58 It has just 1G of memory, uses a crippled SiS video chip on the mobo ... Its running an un-hacked (part from getting the SiS video to work) 12.3 on a 200G disk df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on devtmpfs 479M 32K 478M 1% /dev tmpfs 494M 0 494M 0% /dev/shm tmpfs 494M 3.3M 491M 1% /run /dev/mapper/system-suse--root 5.0G 2.0G 3.1G 40% / tmpfs 494M 0 494M 0% /sys/fs/cgroup /dev/sda1 152M 59M 86M 41% /boot /dev/mapper/system-HOME 1.0G 110M 915M 11% /home /dev/mapper/system-TMP 1.7G 33M 1.6G 2% /tmp /dev/mapper/system-suse--var 2.0G 312M 1.7G 16% /var tmpfs 494M 3.3M 491M 1% /var/run /dev/mapper/system-suse--share 2.0G 1.4G 672M 68% /usr/share tmpfs 494M 3.3M 491M 1% /var/lock But it runs both (current versions) T'Bird and Firefox at the same time both with quite acceptable performance. If you were local I'd cart this box over to you and let you use it to see how good an unmodified opensuse desktop can be and get you over your problems with poor X performance (presumably on much better hardware than this piece of junk) and that T'Bird doesn't need to have the kind of problems you describe that are preventing your moving to an up to date version and hence getting a "reply-to-list" button. Yes, I know this is an old crippled box I'm describing. That's my point. Yes, I know that at my local Best Buy I can get a an Acer or Toshiba or, heavens forbid!, a HP with a 4-core CPU, maybe as much as 6-8G of memory and a 650G to 1TB disk for about $350[1]. Assuming I get that far into the store and haven't been persuaded to spend that on a camera, phone or tablet or large screen TV ... Just for the heck, I took a USB stick in and booted on LiveLinux on one of these machines - no not at Best Buy, at another place where the salesdroids were more tolerant. MY GOD IS 12.3 FAST ON A 4-CORE! Well OK, that high end video helped. So why do I use the stuff from the Closet Of Anxieties? 'Cos its there; 'cos I like running Linux on stuff that can't run Windows just to prove a point; 'cos its more of a challenge than running it on high-end modern stuff. And of course so I can write to you telling you how great 12.3 is unmodified, out of the box and how well T'Bird 17.0.5 runs on it. The bottom line is that I'm not very sympathetic to your reasons for sticking with 2.0.0.24. [1] Which is small fry compared to the new car next month -- Given a choice between patching Windows and breeding cats, I'll take breeding cats. The scars heal and you feel like you're doing something productive and the kittens are so cute an sweet. You can't say any of that about patching Windows. And end users aren't as sweet an cuddly as kittens. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 03:39 PM:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 03:27 AM:

...

but one I didn't think Anton would take personally.

Anton takes very little personally .... a few days later.

Linda: you report a lot of technical problems with your own systems to the list. I must admit it makes me wonder why you have these problems and and others, not least of all myself, don't.

==== 1) I boot from my hard disk 2) I have a separate /usr partition

Therefore work to disable booting from your hard disk directly cause problems on my end as I undo / workaround such.

Work to move files into /usr and leave dangling symlinks on the root partition that point to nothing when /usr is not mounted also cause problems. When I have asked why not move those utils into /bin or /sbin, and put the symlinks in /usr (you'd get the same benefits from /usr based programs' perspectives, I'm pointed ignored.

Oh, I'm sorry, haven't I made it clear why I ignore you when you go on about that? I thought I had. It is because I too have a number of systems set up with separate /usr and /var and /usr/share and /usr/lib/perl5 and /usr/lib/ruby and a few other such splits of /usr/lib because, my gosh, its a big subtree! And, as regular readers will recall, I'm obsessive about using LVM and small partitions and backing up to, if not DVDs, then CDs, and yes I do use K3B, and yes, by gosh, by golly my /tmp is large enough to let that happen, don't you just know, because my /tmp is another LVM partition - but you were expecting that weren't you? What? Yes I do have a system that is just BtrFS, all on one disk, not /boot partition, not /tmp partition. Again, and see previous email, its there just to see if it can be done and it can and it seems to work just fine, by gosh, by golly, showing that openSuse is capable of great things even on crapped out hardware out of the Closet Of Anxieties that isn't even capable of running Windows, so that I'm not trapped into being stuck with Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 and can use the threading mechanisms of 17.0.5, even if they do have a different look-and-feel from the one you are using. But what the heck, Linux has a different look and feel to Windows anyway; I can live with that. The thing is that your 'dangling links' actually don't dangle in real life. Well not for me. As far as I can see "it all works" and that's what counts. Or it works for me, out of the box, without fiddling with any details. All the stuff of systemd uses absolute paths since it isn't using the shell and $PATH. Out of the box my system boots to include /usr (I'm talking about the ones where I use partitions not the BtrFS one). Weren't we talking about disks and systems that were big enough to need a 1TB /tmp? Heck I know, because one such machine has it, that you can put all of openSuse, a few desktops (xfce, e17...) office tools and more, all on just 20G # lsblk NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT sda 8:0 0 19.1G 0 disk ├─sda1 8:1 0 156.9M 0 part /boot └─sda2 8:2 0 19G 0 part ├─system-HOME (dm-0) 253:0 0 1G 0 lvm /home ├─system-SWAP (dm-1) 253:1 0 1.1G 0 lvm [SWAP] ├─system-TMP (dm-2) 253:2 0 1.6G 0 lvm /tmp ├─system-suse--root (dm-3) 253:3 0 5G 0 lvm / ├─system-suse--var (dm-4) 253:4 0 2G 0 lvm /var └─system-suse--usr (dm-5) 253:5 0 2G 0 lvm /usr or an system running BtrFS # lsblk NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT sda 8:0 0 19.1G 0 disk ├─sda1 8:1 0 1.4G 0 part [SWAP] └─sda2 8:2 0 17.7G 0 part Now if you can't spare 20G from your 1TB to put all of / and /usr on the same partition then things are dire. What? Someone is asking how I back up that stuff with just a 1.6G /tmp or the 20G BtrFS. These are the systems from the Closet of Anxieties, scratch - to show it can be done, to show that openSuse can run on machines the Windows world has rejected. Machines that show a lot of what Linda goes on about makes no sense. Oh, and recall the other thread where I mentioned using rsync for backups to another machine... just to show that it could be done and done very simply and easily ...

Some people have been promising that it is going to get worse -- nothing will work if you don't boot from a ramdisk or have a separate root. The former likely because the keys to access allow secure boot will be kept on the initrd, so if you boot from the HD, you don't get secure boot -- which may be the only option supported in a few years.

Your point being that most vendors are kow-towing to whatever Microsoft says. I don't know about that. My all-in-one 8G USB stick (only one desktop, few tools) versions of Koppix (yah! boots on anything) Fedora and OpenSuse (I don't need the 16G 32G stick for a minimalist boot) seemed to work on all the machines in the store I tried and that included some with this UEFI thing. No separate root on that stick. So you don't boot from a initrd... how long can you justify that? Or is this really about you simply don't want change and view change as somehow ... nasty.

I'm not a typical end-user -- I'm a computer scientist -- who likes to tinker in every aspect of their computer and run comparison benchmarks and tune it to run as fast and optimally as possible.

Ah, so you're dealing with the source and all the variations between different Linux vendors. All the way up to Linux on a mainframe.

I often try out new computing theories and practices if I can on my home network.

Like I try out new releases on scrappy bits of h/w from the Closet of Anxieties. I've got Mageia and Fedora here too - the Fedora is off line, that disk was in the closet for a reason ... so it goes ...

Having that freedom curtailed to give corporations the keys to my system so they can charge me for apps is not how I want my computers to be taken. Some of the above may sound paranoid, but it's nothing that MS and others haven't already stated that they want to do.

My ISP does that too; they charge extra for a static address if I want a certificate and more if I want to run virtual machines .. Damn It, they want to make a profit.

...

I re-read your problems with later versions of T'Bird. I've been happily using it since Mozilla calved it off as its own product. As I've commented before, I use fetchmail to download onto a 'server' and access via IMAP from whatever workstation I'm at (which might even be over a ssh tunnel). Yes, I could configure all or specific folders to download from the IMAP server to a local cache but I've chose not to use that configuration option. ---- I configure the folders on the IMAP server -- i.e. the filter happens at delivery time, before IMAP sees them. I have over active mailboxes (ones that may have new mail) and near 500 total.

Oh what a coincidence! I have a dedicated mail server that runs fetchmail, pipes though procmail (to do blacklisting and whitelisting more efficiently than spamassassin can), then spamassassin (to do Baysian learning), then procmail again (to sort into the folders). All that, as you say, before the IMAP server (dovecot in my case) sees them. Before Thunderbird sees them. Your point being?

...

Note: Its a configuration option. --- A default configuration option that is difficult to turn off since they really wanted it on -- so they could give you the "one-index' feature of all your email.

I don't see that its difficult to turn off. I do see that you have to explicitly choose to download folders onto your machine. I do see that the size and other things ARE configurable in 17.0.5 (Menu:edit->preferences->advanced-<advanced configuration->enable global search and indexer)(and also the user_prefs editor on the same dialogue box). I can't speak for 2.0.0.24 since I'm not running that, but the capability to control such is there is you choose to move to 17.0.5.

...

Yes T'Bird in IMAP mode will download the header/envelope information. (And cache it for the next startup) How else can it display that information - subject, date, from, status - and the number of messages in the folders? Please don't confuse downloading headers with downloading body.

---- That's not a problem. It's the "download for offline use" setting that went from default 'off' to default 'on' for all folders in 3.x.

Dunno for 3 but there are a few places in 17.0.5 where controls relating to that exist and I haven't changed them and when I look they are either "Off" or "ask me".

...

Does T'Bird download the body? Damn right it does! How else can you read the message! Does it cache that? Apparently so: move up and down the list when you have 3-panel set up or go to another folder then come back. No delay in viewing a message you've already viewed. Does the cache expire? Of course it does. Can you configure it? Of course you can:

user_pref("browser.cache.disk.capacity", 358400); user_pref("browser.cache.disk.smart_size_cached_value", 204800); ---- Um... thats for the browser that is built into to Tbird (but not usually enabled). That is not for the email messages.

Maybe so for 2.0.0.24 but I can clear space on my 17...

You cannot expire the message bodies in your local cache without also deleting them out of your IMAP store (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746350).

Ah, but you finally there mention 'roaming profiles'. I *am* using IMAP. Yes I can delete messages on the server. My windows reflect what the IMAP protocol sees on the server, so a delete in the window deletes on the server. I don't see how you can _not_ delete on the server if you delete what you see in the display. If you want to purge the local cache and force T'Bird to ask for all the headers from the IMAP server that is a different matter.

As it was, the wording was unclear, and I wanted them to make them separate -- but they just fixed the wording. The only way you can recover that space is to manually delete the cache files out of your local profile.

That depends what you mean by 'manually'. Yes you can use a file browser and delete them one by one, or you can use the GUI, built in with 17.0.5 and purge them.

When they get over a few 100MB (that just for index and **read** messages

Eh? You can set the size at which the cache tops out and does it automatic purging.

(I don't read every message that comes in on every list

Neither do I, maybe not for days ... certainly not the "SPAM" tree

-- not to mention > many of my folders are archive folders that won't be read in unless I go search them --

Ditto. I have a complete ARCHIVE tree and by now it has more than the current tree. Good on the capabilities of dovecot for this.

but IMAP can search them without mozilla downloading them. That's not real well supported by Tbird though.

True. Few mail readers can push stuff back from the remote 'reader' into the filter search and index capabilities of dovecot. But none of this is justification for failing to move to a more up to date version of Thunderbird.

...

There are other cache settings too - see the documentation. --- See all my bug reports in the mozilla DB... I've been using firefox/netscape for longer than I've been using suse (or linux for that manner)...it ran on Irix when I was at SGI.

You're not alone; I was using the 'original' back when it was still "Mosaic" (HA HA HA) and could not understand why the version for different platforms had different menu structures.

At this point the problem isn't so much that I can't turn off the downloading -- but if I do my favorite extension (the one that shows the hyperlinked/clickable conversation graph (that can be exported in in SVG!), that I'd lose -- because the author switched to using tbird's indexing service in 3.x -- which only works on the locally downloaded content in the message bodies. If you turn that off, you lose that feature.. He used to do his own indexing and sqlite db storage -- that's the version I still have that works in 2.x -- which is no longer supported in 3.x.

Some of that makes sense. If this tool runs locally and its doing full text indexing of the body to produce these hyperlinks then it need to have the bodies of the messages local to do that. I suppose you could just pour the messages into some external wikifier but that wouldn't have the email interface.

So while I could turn off the full account download -- I'd still lose that extension.

Life like that. It could be worse. Famine, Earthquake, War, Meteor strike, Divorce ....

bummer. There are other reasons...momementum... busy plate...etc...

I can think of other synonyms.

...

Problems? Yes I have lots of them! They all get back to the plugins and extensions, mostly that the developers don't keep up to date.

--- bingo... I'd lose half my extensions on any upgrade.. I have over 100.

You mean that there are actually that many extension for Thunderbird? Don't they slow it down? Oh my, I though my half dozen were a lot, and some of them are not of very good quality. Still....

--- Um... nope...its' not the few hundred meg of headers.. it's the 6G of bodies... that is stored in my ***ROAMING PROFILE***... the first time it happened, I didn't know that Tbird had downloaded the whole thing.

So long as you need a full text indexer/hyperlink builder that runs locally its going to need all those bodies locally. YOU made THAT decision, that have that facility and that's a consequence of the decision YOU made. So long as you choose to run that indexer and visualizer you are going to have to download "the whole thing". Are there other ways to do it? You're the "Computer Scientist", you tell us, but I'd betcha the answer is "yes". But the implementation you have runs locally. If you want to get away from that find one or the equivalent that can work entirely on the server. Dovecot does have a full text indexer, perhaps there's something that can make use of its indexing there. HOWEVER ... I think you're being excessive. You did say that you don't read all your folders. I gather that - like me - you have a 'working set' of what is of interest and lot of stuff that doesn't get looked at often or just gets archived. In that case I should thin there can be some kind of accommodation that only the working set needs to be regularly downloaded and updated. The 'archives' can be downloaded, indexed, then cleaned out.

...

But then you mentioned

...

I'm hoping to get 'X' to run faster

Well it that's your problem then it isn't really a T'Bird problem. ---- Well ... yes and no. My old Tbird runs locally so no 'X'.

That makes no sense. My T'Bird runs locally (at my workstation or on my laptop or whatever the keyboard I'm using wherever i'm using it is attached to) but its still running under X. Like right now its running under KDE which is running under X. The laptop uses lightweight xfce to run T'Bird and the xfce runs under X. What's you're saying is that you're running it under windows because you find X isn't fast enough. Gosh! Do you mean that you're running X on Windows and that's not fast enough? Believe me, X on openSuse, even with a crippled SiS card, is FAST!

If 'X' ran at the same speed as the local window manager, I'd be a happy camper.

You man you ARE running X under Windows?

That's gonna be a long haul... The problem is per-packet latency. Since I regularly get over 300MB/s in large transfers -- fastest has been a little over 700, but not reliably. Max theoretical would be 2.5GB/s. That's getting closer to bus speeds of a few-several years ago.

That's why I have hopes of getting my linux desktop to run in near real-time I've even seen GLX/3d stuff run in real time -- where the remote end uses my local Nvidia 590's 3d acceleration -- that's pretty snazzy. But that also doesn't work reliable... though right now, not much does with my libraries being a bit whacked out due to the systemd repairs and workarounds.

Why don't you find your local equivalent to my company's Closet of Anxieties, i.e. where the old discarded equipment lives and modest box and put VANILLA unmodified 12.3 on it. Forget all your arguments about your like and dislikes, and jsut see what VANILLA out of the box 12.3 can do. Either that or explain wtf you're doing that the above is obscurificating 'cos I can't see it. What's local, what's remove what's with this bandwidth what's with this remote?

...

Yes, I know this is an old crippled box I'm describing. That's my point. Yes, I know that at my local Best Buy I can get a an Acer or Toshiba or, heavens forbid!, a HP with a 4-core CPU, maybe as much as 6-8G of memory and a 650G to 1TB disk for about $350[1]. Assuming I get that far into the store and haven't been persuaded to spend that on a camera, phone or tablet or large screen TV ...

---- um... remote? I use the more friendly windows desktop as a primary desktop -- the server in the back room is my "disk space" and network access. The windows box is low on disk space, high on graphics.

Whereas this crippled box out of the Closet of Anxieties is low on disk space, low on memory, low on graphics power. Look, if you don't have a Closet of Anxieties go along to the sally Anne, Goodwill, whatever your local thrift store is. I've seen some good PCs at the Sally Anne for around $20-$25. Forget the monitors, they're not worth it. I picked up a WRT45G for $5 and flashed it, thank you very much. The landfills are overflowing with computer equipment that is being junked. Ask Pooh's friends and relations; they all seem to throw out perfectly usable equipment just because they bought the newest model. Last month I had a stack of thin-line desktops on my desk with a KVM switch, all 20G drives - no, I like there was 40G drive in among them - from the Closet, all bits a pieces getting them to work. 13.3 CAN run in a half G of memory, but I couldn't get it to install in less than 3/4 G - a 512 and a 256. I was short on DVD drives and not all cables worked. Oh fun. But once I got one machine working I could make disks for the others. 12.3 is AMAZINGLY efficient even on this junk. I'll admit finding junked but workable drives is harder than junked chassis. If you have to resort to eBay/Kijiji then, heck, buy new even if it is 0.5 TB, its cheaper :-/ But lack of a dedicated machine, lack of disk space isn't an excuse in these days.

...

Just for the heck, I took a USB stick in and booted on LiveLinux on one of these machines - no not at Best Buy, at another place where the salesdroids were more tolerant. MY GOD IS 12.3 FAST ON A 4-CORE! Well OK, that high end video helped.

So why do I use the stuff from the Closet Of Anxieties? 'Cos its there; 'cos I like running Linux on stuff that can't run Windows just to prove a point; 'cos its more of a challenge than running it on high-end modern stuff. ---- My last server was 10 years old when it died... it was a 2 cpu running 1Gh processors with celeron sized caches (256k).

Oh wow, way ahead of my email server! The BIOS dates that from 2002.

I used linux on it because it gave good server performance for it's age -- but wouldn't have if I'd put windows on it. Was only a 32-bit machine -- had 2GB of main memory.

These machines max out at 1G of memory.

Am familiar with making do with old stuff... after 10 years, it gave up the ghost...

...

The bottom line is that I'm not very sympathetic to your reasons for sticking with 2.0.0.24. --- um....remote? ;-)... Cheers! & thanks for the uplifting understanding...??? ;-)

Remote? I tried VNC between two of these boxes a while back. (See list archives) I had problems understanding the config - suse and fedora and mageia all have their own ways. X on top of X. Ye Gods! the prions the vncserver has! You can optimise for all kinds of hardware and bandwidth in all manner of ways. Performance over the LAN - that was just a 10MHz one - was OK. Mouse was jerky, redraw was more than adequate. I decided to stick with XForwarding over SSH. -- If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 05/08/2013 08:13 PM:

On Wednesday, 2013-05-08 at 12:39 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

1) I boot from my hard disk 2) I have a separate /usr partition

Me too. And a separate /boot partition, and many others. I simply allow the system to create an initrd and it works fine.

And therein, Carlos is the difference between, on the one hand the likes of Thee and Mee, and on the other Linda. Thee and Mee "go with the flow" and when we experiment its not trying to hold back progress. -- He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, And he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere. Ali ibn-Abi-Talib (602 AD - 661 AD), A Hundred Sayings -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Carlos E. R. said the following on 05/08/2013 08:13 PM:

...

You can even use several thunderbird versions each pulling from the same local storage! And keep your extensions.

OMG! I just realized, my laptop still runs 11.4 and some older (but newer than Linda's) version of T'Bird, and like you I run dovecot and don't download.

But can either of you get Threadvis to work on your setup? (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/threadvis/) Where else can you see such a cool graph that spans all folders?? Exportable (w/o the text timeline) in SVG!

Anton Aylward wrote:

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/09/2013 12:28 AM:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. said the following on 05/08/2013 08:13 PM:

...

You can even use several thunderbird versions each pulling from the same local storage! And keep your extensions.

OMG! I just realized, my laptop still runs 11.4 and some older (but newer than Linda's) version of T'Bird, and like you I run dovecot and don't download.

---

But can either of you get Threadvis to work on your setup?

(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/threadvis/)

Yes, loads, runs, KER THUNK!

I don't see that advantage over the threading I have and I don't see why I have to keep all the messages around - and on my workstation!

Wait -- are you saying you have to keep all the messages around on your workstation in order to get that to work? Because in in 2.X, you only had to have the headers downloaded and threadvis could build it's index from that. That was *part* of the point (though that it works at all in 17.x is good news as some had reported problems). As for advantages, when you look at the threading you already have, does it ignore mailbox boundaries and show you messages in the thread regardless of what mailbox they are in -- as that's what threadvis will do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Linda Walsh [05-07-13 19:34]:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

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Hans Witvliet said the following on 05/07/2013 03:06 AM:

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From: Anton Aylward -----Original Message----- Please don't reply to BOTH the list AND me - its not necessary, I do read the list. > Isn't there something about that in the guidelines?

---

That nice for you, you selfish bastard... but it violates normal Internet standards. A reply all is suppose to send something to you and to the list, by default.

My, my, Linda! Please control yourself. It is *you* who has chosen to deviate from the locally accepted and expected standards.

Sorry internet standards trump local standards except where the local people bully others into submission... sides, "selfish bastard", does anyone take that as a serious insult these days?

...

You and others on this list ask them to adapt to your private and selfish behaviors, and create problems by posting this nonsense to the list when you could have just as easily sent it to the person off list.

I suppose you drive on the right side of the road where-ever you are rather than follow the local laws/standards as most of the world does drive on the right side.

Not sequitur, your logic is flawed. There is no world driving standard.

True, one can filter:

:0: * ^From:.*suse\@tlinx\.org /dev/null

Such a dweeb... can't you see anton and I both have suse/opensuse in our emails addrs I can't speak entirely with certainty for anton, but if he can setup per-list email accounts, you can setup filters... THOUGH.... the "To" addr in this case might not do the trick. Best to filter off the (gotta find a post where it was sent to me and list... a few people do it, I like it)...I get it in 2 different mailboxes -- one where I know immediately that someone has responded to one of my emails (because I'm in the "To/Cc" field)...and the other one in the opensuse list folder That lets me archive or recycle things appropriately -- with list email usually expiring over time, while email sent to me is retained longer as more important. But filtering has multiple ways -- if you use fetchmail it picks off who the original sender was unless they've deliberately obfuscated...(in which case they are likely to end up in spam -- not directly, but due to Bayesian filters that usually find such emails are from spammers). here is an example of 1 message that was sent to me and to this list: This is the one sent to me -- it came first: Had the original poster's From addr at the top, .. but the list email has alot more headers (btw I deleted out much of the uninteresting and redundant stuff).... 1)From original-sender@gmail.com Mon May 6 22:54:24 2013 Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ishtar.hs (8.14.5/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id r475sJfW096616 Received: (qmail 13774 invoked by alias); 7 May 2013 05:53:46 -0000 Delivered-To: suse@tlinx.org Mon, 6 May 2013 22:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) ----------------------- 2)From opensuse+bounces-146356-suse=tlinx.org@opensuse.org Tue May 7 20:00:12 2013 Delivered-To: suse@tlinx.org X-Original-To: opensuse@lists4.opensuse.org Received: from opensuse.site ([94.29.72.160]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 2sm7696571lay.5.2013.05.07.19.59.09 for The second one is listed as coming from a list-reflector -- It has an X-original-to line telling me it went to a list... There was an entire path through other servers... Lists have lots of "flags" so you can detect them. The result being you can split the stuff sent directly to you in to one folder (or if you don't want it you can send it directly to junk) and the other copy goes into a per-list folder ... All sorted before I see it -- when I access it via IMAP->dovecot. This is simple stuff. The script I have was originally written in Perl4 -- that's how old it is. There are now reasonably reliable utils to do the same. Besides the one built into dovecot, there is also procmail among many others, I'm sure. So I hardly think Anton is incapable of filter since he's customized his emailsetup more than the average person already. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 07/05/13 20:50, Patrick Shanahan escribió:

I suppose you drive on the right side of the road where-ever you are rather than follow the local laws/standards as most of the world does drive on the right side.

Here we dont give food to the obvious trolls, no matter in what side of road they are in. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/7/2013 4:32 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Hans Witvliet said the following on 05/07/2013 03:06 AM:

...

From: Anton Aylward -----Original Message----- Please don't reply to BOTH the list AND me - its not necessary, I do read the list. > Isn't there something about that in the guidelines?

---

That nice for you, you selfish bastard... but it violates normal Internet standards. A reply all is suppose to send something to you and to the list, by default.

You and others on this list ask them to adapt to your private and selfish behaviors, and create problems by posting this nonsense to the list when you could have just as easily sent it to the person off list.

The garbage from the whiners is the most offensive thing about those who follow internet rules and post copies to both.

Get a frickin email filter and get a life -- and stop harassing everyone who doesn't know about the special rules for the people on this who are too ignorant to setup filters.

Why should we dumb down the internet to the lowest common denominator?

Love ya Anton, but come on! You can filter, it's not hard. Or just setup your client to put in where you want your replies to go to. By default YOU are telling people to send a copy directly TO YOU!!... your reply-to field, in its current state, says to reply TO YOU, and to the LIST if the topic is list pertinent.

To change that, you can change it by specifically telling people's emailer software where to reply-to by setting the reply-to field to point at the list.

Lists *used* to do that for users (few still do), but some people complained that they didn't get the messages sent to them personally and they didn't always get a chance to read all of the email from every list they were on.

By demanding people not follow the normal standards, you are being incompatible with the standards AND blaming others for it (like calling them "fringe cases"...(which I take as a compliment in most circumstances, but on this list, .... sheesh!)...

Don't hold back Linda, tell us how you really feel. ;-) -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/07/2013 04:10 AM:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/06/2013 09:18 PM:

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(which is a darn good reason not to move /tmp to being RAM based, as it gets used for large files sometimes, and .. oops. there goes your memory!...;-)

Or NOT as the case may be.

Sorry -- its not. a 1TB file still takes 1TB out of the backing store whether it is on disk or memory.

Ah, another fringe case raises its head! To my mind a 1TB temp file tells me something is wrong, perhaps something has run away and is producing prodigious output.. Carlos mentions overloading shared resources as being unsociable (perhaps that's what cgroups are for but that's another matter - obviously you're not using cgroups to limit that runaway process that is generating the 1TB temp file) but I would think that consuming all of /tmp with a runaway -- or is it just poorly designed -- application is unsociable as well. Or are you being ridiculous just for the sake of the argument?

...

Secondly, Linux uses a demand paged virtual memory so you're never going to run out of memory, for whatever value of 'never' applies. And it does apply here. If that memory is needed by a process it can be paged out to swap.

--- As someone else pointed out, it's ridiculous to have much virtual memory these days -- it's a waste of disk space -- the kernel only uses it, *significantly*, in pathological situations just before the OOM-killer is invoked.

I think you have the argument backward. First, swap is there for the cases where VM does overflow. Yes, if you have a well constrained system that isn't doing things which demand memory, and you aren't running so many processes that some have to swap out so others can run, they you can in fact do without swap or end up not using swap. Good luck to you. My little 1G box from the Closet of Anxieties isn't in that fortunate situation :-( So if you have a sort program or similar that is chundling over a large data set, backwards and forward, and needs working tables, with it needs lots of memory or, it uses a temp file as intermediate store. If the latter, its nice if that intermediate store is fast. Unless you're using cgroups to limit things then this is another fringe case. We can always come up with fringe cases. I can optimise for this particular fringe case by giving it more memory; perhaps 'in core' if the design uses in core tables and sort buffers, perhaps as shm if its an old design that uses external files. Either I have enough real memory to accommodate it either way or I don't. If I don't have enough real memory then it doesn't matter whether it is running in core or with a tmpfs temp file - its going to use VM and something is going to hit swap. Any more fringe cases? Perhaps we can optimise by spending money on a high end graphics card rather than memory? Oh right, that's a fringe case as well.

System designers will all admit, that optimal behavior is decided by the application and its writer.

I'm glad you go to that, Linda. I'm glad you're saying that "optimal" depends on the "application".

Anyfile that can be changed by other processes and rewritten is not one you want to open using memory mapping. Can you imagine the performance penalty if someone or a library tried to do a memory move or 'garbage collection' on something that was mapped to disk? Ouch!

Yes, I'm glad you noticed that I mentioned SPECIFICALLY that mapping was done with executables and libraries. Oh, and yes, we do write to such files quite often. Perhaps you'd care to run a 'zypper ps' after doing a 'zypper up' to see an example of your "ouch".

...

I think you're worrying about something that isn't a concern.

---

It's a major concern. If some idiot steals /tmp for their own selfish purposes, it will kill many apps.

Oh, you mean like creating the 1TB file in /tmp you mentioned above. Yes that would be idiotic, and if you're using a shared system its idiotic not to use something like cgroups of other resource management mechanism to let someone steal that much from /tmp. Because in that and similar cases it really doesn't matter whether /tmp is a disk or a tmpfs. In that case worrying about that chose isn't a concern, like I said. Worrying about idiot or abusing users and resource exhaustion in a shared environment is your concern. Heck, maybe that idiot is creating the 1TB file in /home/idiot/Documents/ rather than /tmp, and worry about the disk/tmpfs choice for /tmp isn't a concern but resource exhaustion still is.

/var/run is for long-lived tmp files -- /tmp is for short lived tmp files... If I am copying files from one system to another and need a tmp dir -- I use the one for short-lived files.

Right. So /tmp is for the short lived intermediate and buffer files for the sort program or the phases of the compiler; and in those fringe cases I can make the case that a tmpfs implementation is quite sensible; get the program to run faster so it completes and removes them faster. When I copy files from one system to another I use rsync - that's another thread, though. Does it use a temp file?

Now can you tell me how /tmp mapped to your swap will handle a 1-2 or 2-3 TB file? Do you really have that much swap allocated?

Are we talking my dinky little 1G memory system running on a 200G drive from the Closet of Anxieties? Hopefully you have a system that is geared for the kind of applications you choose to run on it. How many people have a /tmp file on disk that that can handle your 2-3 TB file? That's the question. Because if you're in the context where such files are the norm then you're going to design a system around that use-case.

...

Now if we're talking about my memory starved box from The Closet Of Anxieties ... no, its still a NOT, because I'm not doing anything on such a box that involves big files. Its only a small box...

---

I wouldn't call a 48G server memory starved, exactly, but the case can always be made for more. yet it tops out at 192G capacity.

That doesn't come close to holding files in the TB range.

I think you're making my point for me, Linda. Recall, my first line was Or NOT as the case may be All the arguments against tmpfs has been specific use cases. If you're not designing and administering your system to address the business use cases then you re failing. Arguing about disk vs tmpfs is so missing the point. You said above

System designers will all admit, that optimal behavior is decided by the application and its writer.

The application is there to meet the business use case. If that necessitates you finding a way to accommodate 2-3 TB temporary, transient files AT AN ACCEPTABLE PERFORMANCE than so be it. If Linux can't hack it then call IBM and ask if they have a machine that can cope with the use case. There's an old Zen teaching about the finger pointing at the moon ... The Enlightened look where the finger is pointing; the novice focuses on the finger. -- Sometimes I think your train of though is carrying a shipment of toxic waste. -- Ozy & Millie, Monday, August 28, 2000 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh said the following on 05/07/2013 07:20 PM:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Ah, another fringe case raises its head!

--- Nope.. another real-life case. But if you only think of yourself, you'll think everyone else is fringe.

Just so: in fact everyone can say that - everyone has their own context and needs.

---------------------

...

Or are you being ridiculous just for the sake of the argument?

---

This is the problem with current openSUSE -- it's being designed for laptops and handhelds.

And workstations - "Desktops". Don't for get the "D in SLED

I'm talking about a server. And while 1TB would be large, 300-400GB would not be -- and that would still overwhelm any memory based tmp system.

I keep saying Context is Everything but you seem to want to take what as say as a Bed for Procrustes. If your use case for the business needs requires a large transient file then yes, you should not be using a tmpfs for /tmp. If you feel that way then get the openSuse developers to make the type of store for /tmp easily configurable. It *IS* configurable right not, but you have to disable a unit and make an entry in /etc/fstab. I could do that in a about 50 seconds. I'm sure its within tour skill set too, Linda. Yes it would be nice to have Yast do it for those who live and die by Yast, but I don't.

SuSE's changes indicate a much stronger leaning toward portables.

Maybe; the media is bemoaning that Ubuntu isn't moving to 'phones and tablets' fast enough.

Most server admins would think nothing of their system using a custom kernel for their HW -- you want the best performance out of it possible.

Its not just the custom kernel, its all the tuning parameters that are available. I've mentioned the virtual memory ones, but there are ones to do with the disk algorithms, the processor scheduling, times-slicing and more. And they interact. Its a "Black Art".

laptops & handhelds, portability is key -- ease of use -- dumbing down interfaces for non-computer users... and locking down the machines so users can't corrupted them with their own software and binaries -- they'll only be able to use stuff they buy from "the app store"...

That's the direction suse's changes are going.

If that's so they're not alone; that's where the market is going. There's a quote from Gandhi: "There goes my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader." -- Teachers open the door. You enter by yourself. Chinese Proverb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Linda Walsh To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse] on speaking up or being a doormat...(was Re: why /var/run and /run these two directories have absolutely the same contents?) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 01:09:29 -0700

...

This is the problem with current openSUSE -- it's being designed for laptops and handhelds.

And workstations - "Desktops". Don't for get the "D in SLED

Is the desktop edition still around? SLES is intended for servers SLED is intented for desktops And yes, it is still around: i got here SLED11SP2 But these are the commercial versions of SuSE. This playground is for openSUSE, which should be for both desktop's AND servers (appliances, notebooks, netbooks, tablets, ...) hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

First, a tmpfs is mapped to memory in a way that slightly more efficient than a disk based FS. Yes, disk based FSs are mapped to memory, buffers, for reading writing inodes and super-blocks as well as shuffling the B-trees and indexes and more. By comparison a tmps is incredibly light weight.

Secondly, Linux uses a demand paged virtual memory so you're never going to run out of memory, for whatever value of 'never' applies. And it does apply here. If that memory is needed by a process it can be paged out to swap.

Now if we're talking about my memory starved box from The Closet Of Anxieties ... no, its still a NOT, because I'm not doing anything on such a box that involves big files.

I beg to differ. My current workstation (a Dell Optiplex) has 8 GB; when I bought it two years ago that seemed to be sufficient. Start two or three VM instances, two Eclipses, have Chrome and Firefox running, and some associated programs, and you want to have the rest of those 8 GB available for filesystem buffering -- and not just for /tmp. Add the tendency of programs to place very large files (several GBs) in /tmp, and then you know why I think it's preferable to have /tmp on disk. Btw, I want to use swapping only in dire circumstances and not on a regular base; it affects all running applications and not just those that have content on /tmp. That's also the reason why I think that any file left over in /tmp by an application after its termination is a bug in that application. Applications should clean up after them and should leave temporary files only after crashing. And then they *should* leave them so that one can analyze the situation better... Just my 0.02 € Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:

The "tmpfs" is mounted on both /run and /var/run -- so it is the same memory based file system mounted at both points.

That's why you see duplicates in both places

Two tmpfs mounts are completely different and separate filesystems. They have different content. Otherwise /run and /dev would be identical too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org