[opensuse] looking for portable ssd
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? What is the simplest software to do the job? I'm running on just one partition (not my choice, but openSuse's). The internal drive is multi-boot with Win 10. (I don't care if Windows is backed up.) All information welcome. Thanx--doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/10/2019 01.38, Doug McGarrett wrote:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? What is the simplest software to do the job? I'm running on just one partition (not my choice, but openSuse's). The internal drive is multi-boot with Win 10. (I don't care if Windows is backed up.) All information welcome.
A disk is just a disk, you don't need anything. Format it, use it. Unless you are looking for backup software :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Doug -- ...and then Doug McGarrett said... % % Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows % and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is [snip] Don't worry about that software; it's backup and/or encryption software for each of those platforms, but you don't have to use either to use the device. You basically have three choices: - complete bit-for-bit backup of your disk, suitable both as a second copy and as an alternate/replacement boot device (size should match but could be larger) - full copy plus incremental update copies of your data (size should be bigger) - data sync, likely of both add and delete, of your data (size need only be as large as your data) Once you know what kind of backup you want to accomplish, that will drive what software to use. Fortunately, it's all stock under Linux :-) This is really a basic Linux question rather than a SuSE question, but keep us posted! Have a great evening :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 05.35, David T-G wrote:
Doug --
...and then Doug McGarrett said... % % Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows % and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is [snip]
Don't worry about that software; it's backup and/or encryption software for each of those platforms, but you don't have to use either to use the device.
You basically have three choices:
- complete bit-for-bit backup of your disk, suitable both as a second copy and as an alternate/replacement boot device (size should match but could be larger)
- full copy plus incremental update copies of your data (size should be bigger)
- data sync, likely of both add and delete, of your data (size need only be as large as your data)
I do image backup of the root and boot areas (fast recovery, relatively small partition), and rsync of home and data partitions (typically big). -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync. With enouigh script-foo you can even do incremental backups with rsync... Cheers MH *Mathias Homann* Mathias.Homann@openSUSE:.org[1] irc: [Lemmy] @ freenode, ircnet obs: lemmy04 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy[2] *gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102* -------- [1] mailto:Mathias.Homann@eregion.de [2] https://keybase.io/lemmy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 13.07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd
is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 21/10/2019 à 18:04, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely.
rotating disks also, and I don't know if this is still true with new ones, specially when the technology go to m2 nvme (about which I now very few) my web provider uses only ssd (but may be not the popular ones, no idea) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 18:04:46 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 13.07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd
is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely. Sorry, but this is nonsense. These days entire data centers move from spinning rust to SSD. ( Except storage clusters maybe ). My bet is it will be hard to find a VPS hoster that does still offer spinning rust to run VM's from. Own experience: my own SSDs have outlived my spinning rust easily. The only failure I had was a broken controller. Ordered one from the Far East ( < $10 incl. shipping ) and it has run TW, incl. a couple of databases that are heavily used since then. By now it's 8 years old ( oldest is 10 years old, IIRC $400 for 64GB ). There's also some test on the web where they wrote > 7PB to SSDs before the 1st one died.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 21/10/2019 à 18:43, Knurpht-openSUSE a écrit :
to SSDs before the 1st one died.
they are said to lose data is not powered for a long time, but I dunno if it was true nor if it's still true. SD cards are not that reliable, but this is a hole other technology. and what about nvme m2 pci?? no idea. that said for *archiving* large data (4Tb or more) ssd are too expensive jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 18.43, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 18:04:46 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 13.07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd
is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely. Sorry, but this is nonsense.
Not nonsense, it is what happened to Gumb, thread from yesterday: [opensuse] restoring efi boot / home after failed SSD -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 19:12:40 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 18.43, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 18:04:46 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 13.07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett: > Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows > and > Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is > there > some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find > it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd
is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely.
Sorry, but this is nonsense.
Not nonsense, it is what happened to Gumb, thread from yesterday:
[opensuse] restoring efi boot / home after failed SSD Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 19.16, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 19:12:40 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 18.43, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 18:04:46 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 21/10/2019 13.07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 21/10/2019 à 12:15, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote: > Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug > McGarrett: >> Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w >> for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd >> to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software >> I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? > > you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, > a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
depends of what the OP mean by backup... if it's for a daily backup, why not a ssd
is it's for archiving, better use rotating rust. Much cheaper. As of reliability, I dunno how long an advice is uptodate, giving the fast technology pace
Apparently, ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely.
Sorry, but this is nonsense.
Not nonsense, it is what happened to Gumb, thread from yesterday:
[opensuse] restoring efi boot / home after failed SSD Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.: then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 23:28:16 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200
Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly.
Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not? Yeah, we are. Just for fun, my backup strategy:
- Boot from a USB3 Live image - Mount filesystem to be backupped - Backup to 4TB spinning disk - Unmount - Next. This way I'm 100% sure nothing is using the stuff to be backed up. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 23:54:55 CEST schreef Knurpht-openSUSE:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 23:28:16 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200
Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly.
Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not?
Yeah, we are. Just for fun, my backup strategy:
- Boot from a USB3 Live image - Mount filesystem to be backupped - Backup to 4TB spinning disk - Unmount - Next. This way I'm 100% sure nothing is using the stuff to be backed up. Forgot: the USB3 Live image is on a m2 64GB SSD in a casing from China. Total cost ~$25 ( incl. SSD )
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/10/2019 à 00:21, Knurpht-openSUSE a écrit :
Forgot: the USB3 Live image is on a m2 64GB SSD in a casing from China. Total cost ~$25 ( incl. SSD )
probably overkill, a $5 8Gb usb3 pen could suffice :-)) but this imply stopping all the system. I don't do real backup, only archiving (or three redundant usb3 5Tb rotating disks I have two ssd on board, and two installs on the main ssd, so I always can boot I *never* experienced ssd failure, AFAIK never neither main disk failure, but pretty often hard drive failures on the various disks I have here are away, some on brand new disks. Most of my problems come from my own errors I a failure happen, I have an other computer for emergency (the one I use when traveling) and nowaday it's so fast to reinstall openSUSE Leap 15.1 (or the mast available one) of course I have no need of permanent running (else I would have raid system) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/21/2019 05:28 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.: then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not?
Yes. I would not use this on a daily basic--perhaps monthly--perhaps. I know this would be somewhat risky, but I'm too lazy to copy the system on a daily basis. Perhaps I should get two drives, a large one and a small one, and find some kind of software that would update the small one just with new files on a daily basis. Is there such? I don't consider myself competent to write a bash program to do that. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/10/2019 à 01:18, Doug McGarrett a écrit :
one just with new files on a daily basis. Is there such? I don't consider myself competent to write a bash program to do that.
the problem to consider is more complex. for a brief clue: do you need to keep on the backup files removed from the main disk? may be be the error was removing them? if so you need a cumulative backup that may grow fast (think you have virtual machines or dvd images?) if not a "rsync -av --delete source destination" is all what you need. given on recent openSUSE usb disks are always mounted on the same place, I simply recall my line from history when needed... jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/10/2019 23.28, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.: then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not?
Indeed. My computers are now all on SSD, but the backups are all on HDs. Certainly cheaper and bigger, and perhaps safer. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-22-19 04:03]:
On 21/10/2019 23.28, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.: then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not?
Indeed. My computers are now all on SSD, but the backups are all on HDs. Certainly cheaper and bigger, and perhaps safer.
larger and cheaper but definitely not safer. look on the net, consensus is for SSDs. and while your comment about "ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely" is possibly true as we do not have the history available to adequately compare to rust, the effort to recover from rotating rust failure is extensive. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> [10-22-19 08:22]:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-22-19 04:03]:
On 21/10/2019 23.28, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:46 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Oh, yeah. And we've never seen failing HDDs? Come on.
Fewer. All disks die, but apparently, SSD tend to do so suddenly. Guess some of my customers prefer a risky life :D. They spend lots of money to replace spinning disks by SSD, but they must be wrong
Op maandag 21 oktober 2019 22:13:18 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.: then. :D. Admitted, not on their large storage cluster. Which have SAS disks in RAID.
We are specifically talking about disks to use in backups are we not?
Indeed. My computers are now all on SSD, but the backups are all on HDs. Certainly cheaper and bigger, and perhaps safer.
larger and cheaper but definitely not safer. look on the net, consensus is for SSDs. and while your comment about "ssds tend to die suddenly fully and completely" is possibly true as we do not have the history available to adequately compare to rust, the effort to recover from rotating rust failure is extensive.
and SMARTmontools is available for the SSD drives I have. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-22-19 04:03]:
Indeed. My computers are now all on SSD, but the backups are all on HDs. Certainly cheaper and bigger, and perhaps safer.
larger and cheaper but definitely not safer. look on the net, consensus is for SSDs.
For (long(ish) term) backups? No sirreee! Simple physics. A magnetised region will keep its alignment unless disturbed[1][2]. A NAND cell will inevitably lose it's "bitness" over time unless refreshed. So, for cold storage "long-term" backups, rotating rust, or even better rust-on-nylon (aka tapes) or so is the way to go. And those you mention later going for SSDs, they are not backing data up on those SSD and store those SSD in a safe, are they? They'll keep those SSDs powered(!) (and RAIDed in some fashion) in a backup datacenter or some such scheme. But that's not a scheme for your J Random User, is it? -dnh [1] more or less indefinitely, depending on size and temperature and e.g. cosmic rays hittig, which might flip a magnetic region. A safe and controlled temps will help a lot against the latter and the middle. [2] the earth's magnetic field over the last millions of years has been reconstructed AFAIR from magnetic particles physically (not magnetically) "frozen" in magmatic rock erupted along the mid-oceanic ridges wherein the magnetic particles aligned to the then current magnetic field of the earth while the magma/lava was still fluid, and then (physically) frozen in their then alignment once the rock solidified. And if you get series of particles where e.g. N and S are flipped, followed by a series of chaos, and then todays N-S alignment ... Remember: the rock flows from the ridges, gets transported away ... Prime example is the the Atlantic Rift. -- "Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it." -- Arthur experiences the improbability drive at work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/10/2019 à 15:47, David Haller a écrit :
better rust-on-nylon (aka tapes) or so is the way to go.
tapes are reliable, but tape reader are not. HP tape reader ruined some of my tapes. and at the moment I had no more other reader! Hard drive stored and not used can have many problems to rotate again. Many HDD died on my high school during holidays *nothing* on data computing world like to live long without periodic refresh the only long term safe system is: copy to a new system (probably larger) every some years, two years is a good pace. Keep the old backup as long as room allows, many die, but not all. computers are binary devices: analog devices last long but fade, computer devices last long, but not all and when they fail, they fail hard jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 22.10.19 um 16:03 schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
Le 22/10/2019 à 15:47, David Haller a écrit :
*nothing* on data computing world like to live long without periodic refresh jdd thats not true ;-)) (most) of my c64 5 1/4" disks from 1986-1994 are still ok without errors. i would say from the brand "3M" are still all ok. the cheaper "noname" disks start to loose data.
simoN -- www.becherer.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/10/2019 à 16:23, Simon Becherer a écrit :
Am 22.10.19 um 16:03 schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
Le 22/10/2019 à 15:47, David Haller a écrit :
*nothing* on data computing world like to live long without periodic refresh jdd thats not true ;-)) (most) of my c64 5 1/4" disks from 1986-1994 are still ok without errors. i would say from the brand "3M" are still all ok. the cheaper "noname" disks start to loose data.
simoN
you are lucky, I had many drives at the time, no one is any more alive jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-10-22 12:07 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
you are lucky, I had many drives at the time, no one is any more alive
I have a 3.5" drive in my desktop system. But that's because the case is so old and I haven't bothered to remove it. I also have a USB connected drive that came with a ThinkPad I bought many years ago. I haven't used a floppy in many years. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/10/2019 à 18:12, James Knott a écrit :
On 2019-10-22 12:07 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
you are lucky, I had many drives at the time, no one is any more alive
I have a 3.5" drive in my desktop system. But that's because the case is so old and I haven't bothered to remove it. I also have a USB connected drive that came with a ThinkPad I bought many years ago. I haven't used a floppy in many years.
sure, *some* survive, I have cd and dvd very old, but it's not reliable jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 16:03:43 +0200 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
*nothing* on data computing world like to live long without periodic refresh
I think we should go back to punched cards and paper tape :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2019 06:47 AM, David Haller wrote:
larger and cheaper but definitely not safer. look on the net, consensus is for SSDs. For (long(ish) term) backups? No sirreee! Simple physics. A magnetised region will keep its alignment unless disturbed[1][2]. A NAND cell will inevitably lose it's "bitness" over time unless refreshed.
I've seen SSD's retain data when off-line for a year or so, but I agree that they shouldn't be used for long-term storage.
So, for cold storage "long-term" backups, rotating rust, or even better rust-on-nylon (aka tapes) or so is the way to go.
We've got hundreds of SATA spinning disks that have been off-line for more than six-years and we're going through them to make copies on new, higher capacity drives. So far, we had only one sector error that affected one file. But we were able to recover that from a second backup RAID6 array. But note that modern high-capacity drives are charged with helium to allow the heads to fly closer to the "rust". Now I'm worried about the helium leaking out! The drives are warrantied for 5-years, but that won't save lost data. As for tape, I don't trust it long-term. I remember back in the old "analog" days we recorded data on 1-inch AMPEX instrumentation tape. We tried to play back some acoustic data after the tape was on the shelf for about 10-years and discovered that the data was corrupted by a large amplitude "screeching" noise. We figured out that the iron oxide was coming loose and collecting on the read heads. This made the heads "sticky" which caused the tape to vibrate as it passed the heads. This vibration was the screeching noise. Lots of data lost. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-10-22 11:06 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
But note that modern high-capacity drives are charged with helium to allow the heads to fly closer to the "rust". Now I'm worried about the helium leaking out! The drives are warrantied for 5-years, but that won't save lost data.
Many years ago, I used to maintain some "head per track" hard drives that were helium charged. These drives were used for overlays (this was back before virtual memory) and needed the fast response time that head per track provided. IIRC, these drives were 1 or 2 MB, depending on the model. They were attached to some Data General Eclipse computers we had at work. Part of the maintenance was to check the helium pressure and replace the bottle when it was low. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/10/2019 17.15, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-10-22 11:06 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
But note that modern high-capacity drives are charged with helium to allow the heads to fly closer to the "rust". Now I'm worried about the helium leaking out! The drives are warrantied for 5-years, but that won't save lost data.
Many years ago, I used to maintain some "head per track" hard drives that were helium charged. These drives were used for overlays (this was back before virtual memory) and needed the fast response time that head per track provided. IIRC, these drives were 1 or 2 MB, depending on the model. They were attached to some Data General Eclipse computers we had at work. Part of the maintenance was to check the helium pressure and replace the bottle when it was low.
Ah, so that's what the helium bottles were for! I never knew. Other bottles are/were the fire extinguisher bottles. Halon? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-10-22 12:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Many years ago, I used to maintain some "head per track" hard drives that were helium charged. These drives were used for overlays (this was back before virtual memory) and needed the fast response time that head per track provided. IIRC, these drives were 1 or 2 MB, depending on the model. They were attached to some Data General Eclipse computers we had at work. Part of the maintenance was to check the helium pressure and replace the bottle when it was low. Ah, so that's what the helium bottles were for! I never knew.
Other bottles are/were the fire extinguisher bottles. Halon?
The helium bottles were mounted under the drive and were about the size of a propane torch cylinder. Data centres would have something else for fire control, but my understanding is that halon is falling into disfavour. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 22/10/2019 17.15, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-10-22 11:06 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
But note that modern high-capacity drives are charged with helium to allow the heads to fly closer to the "rust". Now I'm worried about the helium leaking out! The drives are warrantied for 5-years, but that won't save lost data.
Many years ago, I used to maintain some "head per track" hard drives that were helium charged. These drives were used for overlays (this was back before virtual memory) and needed the fast response time that head per track provided. IIRC, these drives were 1 or 2 MB, depending on the model. They were attached to some Data General Eclipse computers we had at work. Part of the maintenance was to check the helium pressure and replace the bottle when it was low.
Ah, so that's what the helium bottles were for! I never knew.
Other bottles are/were the fire extinguisher bottles. Halon?
AFAIK, halon is not used anymore (CFC gas?), but they would have very clearly marked. There would also have been breathing apparatus available as well as mandatory instruction in its use (for anyone with access). The halon bottles I have seem, in the 80s and 90s, were huge. Maybe 2 meters tall, I'm not sure. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.5°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/19 9:35 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
Other bottles are/were the fire extinguisher bottles. Halon? AFAIK, halon is not used anymore (CFC gas?), but they would have very clearly marked. There would also have been breathing apparatus available as well as mandatory instruction in its use (for anyone with access). The halon bottles I have seem, in the 80s and 90s, were huge. Maybe 2 meters tall, I'm not sure.
Halon is a CFC gas that is alleged to destroy the ozone layer, thusly giving cancer to polar bears and penguins. It also was an excellent fire extinguisher that had the benefit of not being poisonous to breathe. CO2, on the other hand, will kill both you and the fire. I've seen halon bottles in boat engine rooms, but no more. What do they use now in computer centers? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-10-22 02:30 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Halon is a CFC gas that is alleged to destroy the ozone layer, thusly giving cancer to polar bears and penguins. It also was an excellent fire extinguisher that had the benefit of not being poisonous to breathe. CO2, on the other hand, will kill both you and the fire. I've seen halon bottles in boat engine rooms, but no more. What do they use now in computer centers?
Halon may not be poisonous, but it will suffocate, just as nitrogen will. At least with CO2, you have a warning, long before it becomes lethal. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:06:33 -0700 Lew Wolfgang <wolfgang@sweet-haven.com> wrote:
As for tape, I don't trust it long-term. I remember back in the old "analog" days we recorded data on 1-inch AMPEX instrumentation tape. We tried to play back some acoustic data after the tape was on the shelf for about 10-years and discovered that the data was corrupted by a large amplitude "screeching" noise. We figured out that the iron oxide was coming loose and collecting on the read heads. This made the heads "sticky" which caused the tape to vibrate as it passed the heads. This vibration was the screeching noise. Lots of data lost.
Mag tapes need rewinding every now and again to prevent 'print-through', long before they age enough for the oxide to fall off. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2019 09:47 AM, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
/snip/
So, for cold storage "long-term" backups, rotating rust, or even better rust-on-nylon (aka tapes) or so is the way to go.
I have some old audio tapes which are unplayable. The magnetic "bits" migrate from one layer of the wound-up tape to adjacent portions of the tape over time. --doug
And those you mention later going for SSDs, they are not backing data up on those SSD and store those SSD in a safe, are they? They'll keep those SSDs powered(!) (and RAIDed in some fashion) in a backup datacenter or some such scheme. But that's not a scheme for your J Random User, is it?
-dnh
/snip -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-21-19 06:17]:
On 21/10/2019 07.31, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it?
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
I rather prefer rotating rust for the backup. More reliable/durable.
no longer so. SSD is now considered longer life and more durable, but more expensive. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/21/2019 12:31 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
With enouigh script-foo you can even do incremental backups with rsync...
+1 Amen... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:21:59 -0500 "David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 10/21/2019 12:31 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2019, 01:38:53 CEST schrieb Doug McGarrett:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
With enouigh script-foo you can even do incremental backups with rsync...
+1 Amen...
I'm somewhat conflicted. I still use dirvish for incremental backups, which is the mother of all scripts. But I tear my hair out at the idiosyncrasy of the coding :( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-10-21 01:31 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
you need an empty USB3 case, a SSD drive of your choice, a screwdriver, and rsync.
You should use tar to back up to 9 track tapes, as the computer gods intended! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/10/19 10:38 am, Doug McGarrett wrote:
Saw a Samsung portable 500G ssd, but it spoke about s/w for Windows and Mac. I'd like to have a removable ssd to backup my TW system. Is there some kind of software I need to do this, and if so, where do I find it? What is the simplest software to do the job? I'm running on just one partition (not my choice, but openSuse's). The internal drive is multi-boot with Win 10. (I don't care if Windows is backed up.) All information welcome. Thanx--doug
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-external-hard-drive-ssd,5987.html BC -- chestnuts n.- An embarrassing and painful male condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
David Haller -
David T-G -
Doug McGarrett -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Lew Wolfgang -
Mathias Homann -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Simon Becherer