On Wednesday 19 July 2006 03:57, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

It is all about choice, not forcing someone to use someone else's notion of the "ideal". The sooner you get your Windows mentality behind you, the better off you will be using Linux.

Well said....! -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Wednesday 19 July 2006 17:46, Mike McMullin wrote:

Not really. The sooner he gets beyond what he's used to in Windows, the better off he'll be using Linux. If it's an truly ethos thing, which his argument seems to make, then it applies to any other monolithic OS's as well.

Well, linux is actually a monolithic OS :) Now, the hurd, on the other hand..... -- Ut supra post festum sunt obscura -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 19/07/06 01:57, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

Linux is not Windows, it is not like Windows, God forbid it should ever become like Windows.. Linux is all about choice, and if you strip out Gnome in favour of KDE only, you eliminate a great number of applications that many people prefer to use -- and vice versa.

No one is forcing you to use one desktop over another, one mail server over another, one office suite over another, one browser or email client over another -- if you do not like the selections that are suggested to you, simply uncheck those during installation, and select others.

It is all about choice, not forcing someone to use someone else's notion of the "ideal". The sooner you get your Windows mentality behind you, the better off you will be using Linux.

The OP has replied to me privately, writing:

i think the "pattern" is one of great job in opensuse, and this "pattern" already implemented! look at SLED. some distro have done this selection yearly ago: Xandos (kde), ubuntu (gnome), kubuntu (kde), fox, etc. also, in Windows u can install any application, i am using Openoffice and Firefox in WinXP while still using OE for mail. You must not remove your Linux mentality but think about combine it with other positive os including: Windows, Solaris, Unix, etc... to produce better os with great usability and acceptable by users, if not acceptable then it's useless. this selection/pattern make us more productive and focus. again, you can not serve 2 master. that's why opensuse team define: must-have, should-have and may-have package.

A single choice of desktop hardly constitutes a "pattern" called "desktops". A single choice of office suite hardly constitutes a "pattern" called "office suites". If the OP is so bothered about having too much choice in SuSE, then he should pick whichever distro comes closest to his restricted list of personal choices, and switch to that. I hope he will find such a distro that gives him every choice he wants, otherwise he will be bugging that distro's mailing lists to make massive changes to its package selections as he has been doing here. Good luck in finding such a distribution. Personally, I am quite capable of reading a list of choices, selecting those I do want and rejecting those I do not. I am quite comfortable in knowing that I can install Mozilla right from the installation source, while someone else who prefers Opera can do the same. Neither of us has to run off to some third-party source just because the distro developers all think everyone should be using Konqueror. This is what a "pattern" of selections is all about: when I choose the "pattern" called "desktop" I am presented with a *choice* of desktops, and asked which one I prefer to use. I am not presented with a single choice, and told... well, wait... if there is only a single choice of desktop, then we can dispense with this part and just go straight to installing it. Same goes for the browser, email client, office suite, etc.. there's only one of each, if the OP has his way, so why bother even telling the user anything? Just go ahead and install it all. The OP's own words show just how superior the current SuSE approach is: Ubuntu comes with Gnome, which someone didn't like, so he took all the Ubuntu source tree, changed everything over to KDE, and sent it out as Kubuntu. Someone else needs to come along and make a new distro out of all this, for all the people who don't like either Gnome or KDE, preferring fvwm instead. We can have real fun with all this: under the OP's plan, separate distributions are needed for each of the following combinations (pick one and only one from each list, including the possibility of having none at all): a) desktop: Gnome, KDE, fvwm (feel free to add a few of your own) b) office suite: OO, Koffice (add a few here too) c)browser: Mozilla/Seamonkey, Firefox, Opera (delete pattern if using KDE, you already have Konqueror) d) email agent: (delete pattern if using Mozilla/Seamonkey or KDE) mail, mutt, Thunderbird, Sylpheed e) database, with or without any at all: make up your own list (delete pattern if offering an office suite) .... Just think how much more fun we can have by adding in all the possible kernel choices (32 or 64 bit, AMD or Intel, PPC, multiple cores/multiple processors), including 2.4 for those who still have some old hardware that the 2.6 kernels no longer recognize. Given the problems it has caused for some, perhaps separate distributions are also needed for kernels with, and without, ACPI support. Why not just include it all in a single installation source, Mr Spider, and trust that the user has the intelligence needed to choose which he wants, and which he does not? Unless, of course, you feel the average user is not intelligent enough to make such choices. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com