[opensuse] Re: Why does this list permit attachments?

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Jim Henderson

24 Apr 2009 24 Apr '09

00:48

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:09:48 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2009/04/23 22:00 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

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I use gmane to read the list

Then you're not actually using an email program, you're using a web browser. Ordinary POP accounts used by people running common email software AFAIK don't allow pre-determining what to download or not.

So out of idle curiosity, I ran some statistics on the composition of this list. In my analysis, I used 8,417 posts pulled from gmane. Since gmane munges sender information and doesn't include source IP information, I have only looked at the percentages by user agent. Of the 8,417 messages analyzed, 70% (nearly 6,000) of them were sent using Thunderbird or KMail. The breakdown is as follows: Thunderbird 2987 35.49% KMail 2888 34.31% Alpine 697 8.28% Mozilla 665 7.90% Mutt 527 6.26% KNode 253 3.01% SquirrelMail 149 1.77% Pan 67 0.80% Gnus 47 0.56% Opera 34 0.40% Turnpike 33 0.39% Wanderlust 27 0.32% Spicebird 14 0.17% Internet_Messaging_Program 8 0.10% Microsoft-Entourage 7 0.08% slrn 5 0.06% Mozilla-Thunderbird 4 0.05% Icedove 2 0.02% RoundCube 2 0.02% Loom 1 0.01% As you can see, Thunderbird & KMail users are at least the most prolific. It's hard to profile what everyone is using to read (so this analysis does leave the lurkers out). But perhaps this can help frame the discussion in more concrete terms rather than making assumptions that attachments are a bad thing. At least based on post traffic, it seems most users of this list who post are using programs that can pull POP headers without pulling the message content. Have to run out for a bit, but when I'm back, maybe I'll see if I can break the senders down it a reasonable analysis. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Felix Miata

24 Apr 24 Apr

01:31

New subject: [opensuse] Why does this list permit attachments?

On 2009/04/24 00:48 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

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The breakdown is as follows:

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Thunderbird 2987 35.49% Mozilla 665 7.90% Spicebird 14 0.17% Mozilla-Thunderbird 4 0.05% Icedove 2 0.02%

I'm guessing Icedove and Spicebird are Debian names for Mozilla products, which is what Mozilla-Thunderbird, Thunderbird, and Mozilla are but without oddball names. So is the conspicuously absent SeaMonkey. Maybe some other source would provide stats that can distinguish among Mozillas. -- "He who works his land will have abundant food, but the one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty." Proverbs 28:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

02:39

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:31:25 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2009/04/24 00:48 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

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The breakdown is as follows:

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Thunderbird 2987 35.49% Mozilla 665 7.90% Spicebird 14 0.17% Mozilla-Thunderbird 4 0.05% Icedove 2 0.02%

I'm guessing Icedove and Spicebird are Debian names for Mozilla products, which is what Mozilla-Thunderbird, Thunderbird, and Mozilla are but without oddball names. So is the conspicuously absent SeaMonkey. Maybe some other source would provide stats that can distinguish among Mozillas.

I stripped the versions out of the headers and that may have removed some of the other variants of the web browsers. Internet Explorer was also notably absent. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

02:55

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:39:45 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:31:25 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2009/04/24 00:48 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

...
The breakdown is as follows:

...
Thunderbird 2987 35.49% Mozilla 665 7.90% Spicebird 14 0.17% Mozilla-Thunderbird 4 0.05% Icedove 2 0.02%

I'm guessing Icedove and Spicebird are Debian names for Mozilla products, which is what Mozilla-Thunderbird, Thunderbird, and Mozilla are but without oddball names. So is the conspicuously absent SeaMonkey. Maybe some other source would provide stats that can distinguish among Mozillas.

I stripped the versions out of the headers and that may have removed some of the other variants of the web browsers. Internet Explorer was also notably absent.

Jim

Looking at the raw data, Seamonkey is universally listed as part of the "Mozilla" numbers. Thunderbird (and Mozilla-Thunderbird) are the only ones that show explicitly for Thunderbird. So those entries are distinctly unique in the above list. Spicebird and Icedove are such a small percentage that even if they are part of the Thunderbird or Mozilla/Seamonkey mix, the effect on the overall percentages is negligible at best. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

03:37

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:48:09 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:09:48 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2009/04/23 22:00 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

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I use gmane to read the list

Then you're not actually using an email program, you're using a web browser. Ordinary POP accounts used by people running common email software AFAIK don't allow pre-determining what to download or not.

So out of idle curiosity, I ran some statistics on the composition of this list.

In my analysis, I used 8,417 posts pulled from gmane. Since gmane munges sender information and doesn't include source IP information, I have only looked at the percentages by user agent.

Of the 8,417 messages analyzed, 70% (nearly 6,000) of them were sent using Thunderbird or KMail.

The breakdown is as follows:

Thunderbird 2987 35.49% KMail 2888 34.31% Alpine 697 8.28% Mozilla 665 7.90% Mutt 527 6.26% KNode 253 3.01% SquirrelMail 149 1.77% Pan 67 0.80% Gnus 47 0.56% Opera 34 0.40% Turnpike 33 0.39% Wanderlust 27 0.32% Spicebird 14 0.17% Internet_Messaging_Program 8 0.10% Microsoft-Entourage 7 0.08% slrn 5 0.06% Mozilla-Thunderbird 4 0.05% Icedove 2 0.02% RoundCube 2 0.02% Loom 1 0.01%

As you can see, Thunderbird & KMail users are at least the most prolific. It's hard to profile what everyone is using to read (so this analysis does leave the lurkers out).

But perhaps this can help frame the discussion in more concrete terms rather than making assumptions that attachments are a bad thing. At least based on post traffic, it seems most users of this list who post are using programs that can pull POP headers without pulling the message content.

Have to run out for a bit, but when I'm back, maybe I'll see if I can break the senders down it a reasonable analysis.

Using the same data, I counted about 437 unique users (about 30 use two or more programs), and the breakdown looks like this: UA Count Percent Thunderbird 209 44.75% KMail 163 34.90% Mozilla 31 6.64% Mutt 23 4.93% SquirrelMail 7 1.50% Alpine 6 1.28% Opera 6 1.28% KNode 4 0.86% Wanderlust 3 0.64% Gnus 2 0.43% Internet_Messaging_Program 2 0.43% RoundCube 2 0.43% slrn 2 0.43% Icedove 1 0.21% Loom 1 0.21% Microsoft-Entourage 1 0.21% Mozilla-Thunderbird 1 0.21% Pan 1 0.21% Spicebird 1 0.21% Turnpike 1 0.21% So even based on user preferences (based on the same headers), based on posting, Thunderbird and KMail are still the primarly clients used by the majority of the posting members of the list. What does this mean? Assuming they're using POP access, the majority of the active participants on this list (nearly 80%) have the ability to control whether or not a message is downloaded by their client. At least 9 of us use Newsreaders and gmane. Those who don't want to be burdened with downloading every message that may have an attachment has several options to avoid doing this if they so desire. Another option might be to use the digest version of the list (I don't know if attachments are sent through the digests or not, I would hope not). Let's think about your argument for a minute, Felix. You're contending that everyone shouldn't be forced to download attachments that are sent to the list (we'll ignore for the moment that nobody's forced to download any attachment unless they choose to use software that doesn't give them the option). The total line count in those 8417 messages is is roughly (without the headers) 343,171, with the shortest message being 1 line and the longest being 4660, but only 16 messages of that total having more than 1000 lines. Assume each message as it comes through the gmane gateway has an average line length of 75 characters. That works out to about 24-25 MB of data for over 8400 messages (excluding attachments). The oldest message in the data set is dated July 17, 2008. So not quite a year's worth of messages from this list. If people want to cut down on the amount of data transferred, there are several options: 1. Use a program that doesn't require you download all messages you read. 2. Trim your quoting to a reasonable length. That means (among other things) don't quote a 1000 line message to add "I agree" at the end. 3. If you have something to say, make sure it's relevant to the list and on topic - and be succinct. (Yeah, I know, "succinct" is not something I'm particularly good at myself ;-) ) 4. If you're really concerned about bandwidth usage, use a news reader and gmane (news.gmane.org). 5. (Not generally a big deal on this list but maybe worth mentioning) Don't send HTML messages to the list. 6. If you're posting a log file or other attachment, look at the size first and if it seems like a lot of data, trim it to relevant dates/times at a minimum, and if it still seems too big, ask for help determining what is relevant before sending it. I think you'll find that most if not all of these points are already covered in the general list etiquette already. One of the challenges people who are posting logs to the list have is knowing what's relevant. If, as someone who is helping out, you need a logfile from someone who's asking a question, help them determine what's relevant and what isn't and tell them what to include. Don't just say "give me your zmd-messages log file". If that file's 200 MB there are going to be many upset users on the list. Unless you know the person you're helping out *really* well, assume they don't know what's relevant and tell them. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

04:02

Nice breakdown Jim. I did that once before for Usenet, it came out similar conclusion that despite complains, whole 10 years of all groups is not all that much hard disk space, specially if compressed. Thinking about quality of posts. Breakdown can be automated to some extent and posted every now and then, just as reminder where we are. -- Regards, Rajko Visit http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

05:25

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:02:21 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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Nice breakdown Jim.

Thanks. :-)

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I did that once before for Usenet, it came out similar conclusion that despite complains, whole 10 years of all groups is not all that much hard disk space, specially if compressed.

The Novell forums (where my history lies) have a complete history of the posts since they were created - all available through NNTP or a user interface. I forget what the size of the spool disk is (but I used to do some of the management of the groups/forums themselves), but the history goes back to 2000 when the servers were first set up.

...

Thinking about quality of posts. Breakdown can be automated to some extent and posted every now and then, just as reminder where we are.

That's true - and might be useful to keep track of. Some of the things that mailman can provide go beyond what can be pulled from gmane headers - like the actual number of subscribers vs. active participants. That would be an interesting statistic. Volume by week/month, time of day/day of week also can be interesting to look at. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

06:03

On Friday 24 April 2009 12:25:53 am Jim Henderson wrote: ...

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That's true - and might be useful to keep track of. Some of the things that mailman can provide go beyond what can be pulled from gmane headers - like the actual number of subscribers vs. active participants. That would be an interesting statistic.

Volume by week/month, time of day/day of week also can be interesting to look at. ...

Try this: http://lists.opensuse.org/ there is some interesting link that can give you the answer :-) -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:08

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:03:05 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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Try this: http://lists.opensuse.org/

there is some interesting link that can give you the answer :-)

That's cool, thanks! Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry

06:47

Rajko M. wrote:

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Nice breakdown Jim.

I did that once before for Usenet, it came out similar conclusion that despite complains, whole 10 years of all groups is not all that much hard disk space, specially if compressed.

It's also utterly insignificant bandwidth. Consider that a single long YouTube video can be longer than the entire year's list messages as determined by Jim. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

L. V. Lammert

14:11

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, John E. Perry wrote:

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Rajko M. wrote:

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Nice breakdown Jim.

I did that once before for Usenet, it came out similar conclusion that despite complains, whole 10 years of all groups is not all that much hard disk space, specially if compressed.

It's also utterly insignificant bandwidth. Consider that a single long YouTube video can be longer than the entire year's list messages as determined by Jim.

You know, who cares! It's totally amazing the amount of mis-direction and tangents a simple comment generates!! The facts of the matter are simple: Contrary to the majority of technical lists, common sense, and good practices (both profesional and security related), opensus@opensuse.org allows attachments. If nobody wants change it, so be it. There has not been a single comment from an admin on the list, so other comments are just meaningless as attachments. Can we please let this thread die? It has already generated more crap traffic than all attchments to date! Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David Bolt

14:24

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, L. V. Lammert wrote:-

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Contrary to the majority of technical lists, common sense, and good practices (both profesional and security related), opensus@opensuse.org allows attachments.

No it doesn't. That they aren't always removed when they are posted doesn't mean that they are actually allowed.

...

If nobody wants change it, so be it. There has not been a single comment from an admin on the list, so other comments are just meaningless as attachments.

Yes there has: URL:http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-04/msg01609.html Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 10.3 32b | openSUSE 11.0 32b | | openSUSE 10.3 64b | openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 10.3 PPC | RISC OS 3.6 | RISC OS 3.11 | TOS 4.02 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

L. V. Lammert

14:32

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, David Bolt wrote:

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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, L. V. Lammert wrote:-

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Contrary to the majority of technical lists, common sense, and good practices (both profesional and security related), opensus@opensuse.org allows attachments.

No it doesn't. That they aren't always removed when they are posted doesn't mean that they are actually allowed.

Sorry, function = reality. This list allows attachments due the fact that it does not filter them.

...

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If nobody wants change it, so be it. There has not been a single comment from an admin on the list, so other comments are just meaningless as attachments.

Yes there has:

URL:http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-04/msg01609.html

I did miss that, my bad. NOW can we please let this thread die, unless Henne wishes to add something? Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

16:12

L. V. Lammert wrote:

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I did miss that, my bad. NOW can we please let this thread die, unless Henne wishes to add something?

I find the topic worth discussing, so that explains why _I'm_ participating in this thread. But what explains your participation if you find it such a dumb thing to talk about? -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

17:59

Brian K. White wrote:

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L. V. Lammert wrote:

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I did miss that, my bad. NOW can we please let this thread die, unless Henne wishes to add something?

I find the topic worth discussing, so that explains why _I'm_ participating in this thread. But what explains your participation if you find it such a dumb thing to talk about?

He has had his say, so its _obviously_ time for the thread to die. I personally appreciate the occasional informative attachment, and I would be very displeased if a few loudmouths managed to harangue the ability out of existence. Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 10:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

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Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege.

No? I did. Some samples: 09-02-07 13:21 Ronald Nsubuga (290K) [opensuse] MS-Outlook2007+Wine NOT WORKING on openSuSE 11.1 08-06-21 12:47 Diego Tognola (498K) [opensuse] Install of OpenSUSE 11in VMWare fails on 'creating repositor 08-05-21 15:41 John Andersen (313K) Re: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only) 07-10-11 12:07 Sean (525K) [opensuse] Ricoh 5in1 Card reader problem!! 07-10-23 10:52 Ness, Todd (835K) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-10-23 10:13 Ness, Todd (1.2M) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-08-06 18:20 shuLhan (653K) [opensuse] usb hard disk disconnected when kdetv launched/exit 07-04-05 13:18 Istvan Gabor (390K) [opensuse] non-visible links/menus in seamonkey - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknyKiMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XxGwCgl/XZIpaJkjhNh3YpvGnljy8j KaYAn2rU0HX02TQlOEOFWjb7Q3Hw3l5G =Nm0Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philip Dowie

21:52

...

On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 10:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

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Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege.

No? I did.

Some samples:

09-02-07 13:21 Ronald Nsubuga (290K) [opensuse] MS-Outlook2007+Wine NOT WORKING on openSuSE 11.1 08-06-21 12:47 Diego Tognola (498K) [opensuse] Install of OpenSUSE 11in VMWare fails on 'creating repositor 08-05-21 15:41 John Andersen (313K) Re: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only) 07-10-11 12:07 Sean (525K) [opensuse] Ricoh 5in1 Card reader problem!! 07-10-23 10:52 Ness, Todd (835K) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-10-23 10:13 Ness, Todd (1.2M) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-08-06 18:20 shuLhan (653K) [opensuse] usb hard disk disconnected when kdetv launched/exit 07-04-05 13:18 Istvan Gabor (390K) [opensuse] non-visible links/menus in seamonkey

Judging from that list, it *may* have been a problem in 2007, but really - with thousands of mails per month, I think that the attachment rate is pretty low. Also, no doubt, the attachments weren't gratutious images, MP3s, etc, and were probably related to the list.. As someone else pointed out - we've probably consumed more bandwidth whinging about this issue than the attachments did. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

21:58

Philip Dowie wrote:

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On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 10:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

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Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege. No? I did.

Some samples:

09-02-07 13:21 Ronald Nsubuga (290K) [opensuse] MS-Outlook2007+Wine NOT WORKING on openSuSE 11.1 08-06-21 12:47 Diego Tognola (498K) [opensuse] Install of OpenSUSE 11in VMWare fails on 'creating repositor 08-05-21 15:41 John Andersen (313K) Re: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only) 07-10-11 12:07 Sean (525K) [opensuse] Ricoh 5in1 Card reader problem!! 07-10-23 10:52 Ness, Todd (835K) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-10-23 10:13 Ness, Todd (1.2M) Re: [opensuse] Suspicious Update 07-08-06 18:20 shuLhan (653K) [opensuse] usb hard disk disconnected when kdetv launched/exit 07-04-05 13:18 Istvan Gabor (390K) [opensuse] non-visible links/menus in seamonkey

Judging from that list, it *may* have been a problem in 2007,

I can't even find any of them in the archive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philip Dowie

22:13

...

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Judging from that list, it *may* have been a problem in 2007,

I can't even find any of them in the archive.

I looked in my archives and confirmed the one from Feb this year - didn't bother with the others. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philip Dowie

21:54

On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 10:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

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Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege.

Also, not so long ago, someone sent some code in, in the body of the mail - they were told always to send code as an attachment so it didn't get mangled by various broken mail clients.. Can't eat your cake and have it too.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

21:57

On Friday April 24 2009, Philip Dowie wrote:

...

On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 10:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

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Not one person has been able to cite a single instance of abuse of this privilege.

Also, not so long ago, someone sent some code in, in the body of the mail - they were told always to send code as an attachment so it didn't get mangled by various broken mail clients..

That was probably me (requesting code in an attachment.) The bottom line is that attachments are not bad or wasteful or evil. They're a standardized part of the email protocols and are very useful. They show _not_ be prevented.

...

Can't eat your cake and have it too..

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-04-24 at 14:57 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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That was probably me (requesting code in an attachment.)

The bottom line is that attachments are not bad or wasteful or evil. They're a standardized part of the email protocols and are very useful. They show _not_ be prevented.

Yes, they can be useful, but there should be a size limit, too. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknySbEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WUpwCcCfU8oc18gwGXjuim0Ed4Ivyb G/IAnjLdfe5D1TlsEOYuxsqARRFS6f3C =LkDm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

25 Apr 25 Apr