On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:57 AM, C wrote:

Nothing wrong with that.  Lots of people here are using version one or two (or even more)  releases back.

Whatever you decide, there are pros and cons.  One release back has more fixes available/applied, and generally is more stable.  On the other hand the latest release has a more up-to-date software selection, new features/functionality, possibly better hardware support, and a newer kernel.  But... you can set up your repositories to grab the latest version of most apps too... so you're not left behind.

Oh I see.

You use what works for you.  The main risk is if the version you are using is outside the patch/update support window... then you no longer get security patches.  11.4 is still supported, so no probs, just have fun learning....

Ah well, then I remain with what I have....11.4

and when you post a request for help be specific about what version you're working with.

Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest' comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest plus point. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 08:55 AM:

Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate.

Its clear you don't understand what google does and its clear you don't understand how to use it. Google indexes everything it can get at. If you mis-configure google-desktop it will add the contents of your machine to its index. There is no semantics. If you google for "god" and some idiot proclaims he is god, the google will index that that as it will index bible pages and other pages claiming others are god and the pages saying those people are not god. God of the universe or god of Linux or god of a single machine. Its all the same to google. It doesn't care. Its just an indexing engine. You seem to be expecting google to do your thinking for you, somehow read your mind for what you really, really want. * Don't expect your first query to return what you want * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many * Don't expect too get answers without making effort * Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative. * Don't be cynical either. You are no more likely to get authoritative answers here than by using google, not least of all since this list gets archived on the 'net and indexed by google! None of this is different from researching in a library, reading books and published papers. I gather schools and universities don't teach that any more, they expect you somehow have this know-how innately, all evidence to the opposite! More specifically: * The issue about "should I go with the new x.1 release as soon as it comes out" has occurred on this any many other lists many times. Go google. Construct more than one query. Don't just look to Suse. Refine your queries. You could have commented that you searched the list archives and found such-and-such a comment about the problems with 10.1, 11.1 and wondered if there was going to be similar problems with 12.1. Or you could have joined one of the other Suse lists concerned with the development of 12.x and monitored the traffic there. * By definition you *are* an "admin of Suse". Live with it! * Google first. Show evidence you have put some effort in rather than using this forum as a crutch. * Take some initiative to find out. That's one of the differences in attitude between Linux people and Windows-weenies. -- "A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 09:45 -0500, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

* Don't expect your first query to return what you want * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many * Don't expect too get answers without making effort This is really important to keep in mind. And it's not just for Linux, it's in life in general.

+1 Searching the Internet [or "googling" since we are in an unwavering effort to proprietize the Internet] is, IMO, just not a very effective way to find information. You'll find (a) lots of questions with no answers (b) old answers and (c) wrong answers - frequently after wasting a fair amount of time. If you have a question it is *much* better to find an appropriate list / forum, subscribe to that, search it's contents specifically, or post a question. For example - I've been subscribed to the Samba and Samba-Technical lists for years and years. If I have a Samba related problem searching the mail folder where all that gets routed too is much more effective than searching 'the Internet'. I always know the vintage of the information I'm looking at [many websites do a bad job of making that clear] and I have [possibly] and entire thread to look at. Anyway, I plan on going to 12.1 soon [maybe this weekend]. Upgrading versions has almost always worked pretty seamlessly for me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 12:46 PM:

...

...

* Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative.

Oh I see, it may have errors then.... , it could be.. since it also has an option of 'edit'....

From Google's point of view its just another page to index. Just like

I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page. It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered there. In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong. Much of this can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material. However the woman restores the erroneous information. Anyone can edit that page. I could, you could. Wikipedia doesn't care either way. Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous. the pages about "flat earth" and the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". As far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology, Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation, vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and much more. You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate their validity to your situation. This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it. Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't necessarily take your situation into account. ] I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ... Context is Everything Context also means thinking about what risks you can take. Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro. You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which distribution of Linux to use. This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives. Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe and try alternatives. Oh, and the time. To say nothing for the experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail). All this is factored into "risk". And on the befit side, if you are still learning, if you can't yet differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a shortcoming in your experience, where does the benefit to you of something like 12.1 really lie? You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here. Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any software product. In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the industry. -- Never criticise somebody until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, they're a mile away, and you have their shoes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/11/2011 15:35, Michael S. Dunsavage a écrit :

Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'

plain wrong. depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away" example: http://wiki.tldp.org/Partition-Mass-Storage-Dummies-Linux-HOWTO jdd (LDP coordinator) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

A much more hands on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on your merry way, maybe.

I accept the Linux is 100% better than MS, agreeing. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page. It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered there. In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong. Much of this can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material. However the woman restores the erroneous information.

Anyone can edit that page. I could, you could. Wikipedia doesn't care either way. Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous.

Confirmed that wikipedia MAY have errors.

From Google's point of view its just another page to index. Just like the pages about "flat earth" and the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". As far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology, Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation, vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and much more.

Okk.

You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate their validity to your situation.

This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it. Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't necessarily take your situation into account. ]

I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ...

Context is Everything

Yeah, correct.

Context also means thinking about what risks you can take.

Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro. You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which distribution of Linux to use.

Yeah.

This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives.

Oh I see. It means that entire mailing lists run on risk/benefit of dealing...

Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe and try alternatives. Oh, and the time. To say nothing for the experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail). All this is factored into "risk".

In fact, even your and mine life is factored into "risk". If you don't ask the questions, what your 'tongue' would do...?

And on the befit side, if you are still learning,

Any person in his entire life cannot learn all the things, so not only I, I guess everybody is learning. However, if you consider only Linux (as a part of life), yes I am starting to learn. So yes I am STILL learning.

if you can't yet differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a shortcoming in your experience,

I can differentiate.

where does the benefit to you of something like 12.1 really lie?

The benefit starts if I were knowing Linux! And after two years, yes I would install the latest version.

You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here.

Of course, that's life's philosophy.

Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any software product. In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the industry.

Oh I see but you can use if you are sure that you have command over Linux, the most worse case is that everything is to be reinstalled! However, its a personal choice.....But yes, now I would not go with it, I am sure. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:

Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do something?

I said 'when I get time, I would'. So I have to bother about it, in fact computers are used in all the ways of life, you can see that... So yes, learning (it could be very slow, though), but is a part of daily activities or at times, weekly activities!

Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock* horror* OSX) get to be like that.

It is your illusion. Why are you living? Since you (or anyone) want to make money and live happily, isn't it? And don't forget that it was Windows who made the money and ruled the world! Yes, it was a time, but it was a fact! So count on earth, how many people still uses Windows? I guess (not sure, since now time has changed) it would be more than Linux users (or a time was there, when it was there....!). Still knowing that Windows is not free.....! Amazing....!

Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads .... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1]. Or a Porche. Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length. All of a sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the machine and how to make it perform.

[1] Or London or ...

Good example.

I'll send you one of mine

When? -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

You were concerned about getting things wrong in partitioning your disk for Linux.

Yes, since it is the first time installation, that's why.

For me there is no risk;

Because you have experience of more than 30 years! Now, how can risk be? But I am sure, when you might have installed for the first time (years back, a history), you must have made the mistake(s)...., however, a guess....

So if someone tells you that they will or won't move to 12.1 soon or later, that's for their reasons and how they perceive the risks and benefits of 12.1.

Yeah.... -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Guys, is this thread spinning out of control? I appreciate the need for judicious LARTing [*] to keep the signal to noise ratio on the list within acceptable limits and nudge Gentle Newbies onto an auspicious path to joining the Linux Elite, but this thread seems to have careered off-topic and is rapidly heading towards a general shouting match for people to indulge their list-Tourettes on. How about letting the thread die before it gallops into the quagmires of KDE vs GNOME, SUSE vs Community, and other forms of dick-swinging-by-proxy and chest-beating? Will [*] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LART -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:

Sigh.

Indeed!

Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'

For some suitable value of expertise ..

along the lines that it will be very hands on.

There is that. Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do something?

You keep throwing around that openSUSE put easy in their policy. Maybe that should be changed if people are getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget.

Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock* horror* OSX) get to be like that. Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads .... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1]. Or a Porche. Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length. All of a sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the machine and how to make it perform. [1] Or London or ...

Perhaps you should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended,

*MANY* TIMES* *!* *!* *!*

to get a better hand on Linux in general.

I'll send you one of mine .... C.O.D. < I'm starting to get the impression that

you're hiding by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other than Windows.

+1

I fear that if you don't start to change your way of thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at all.

+1 -- The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...] The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce endorphins. [...] So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced. With any luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things. -- Pieter Hintjens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about it yet).

Duaine, You probably haven't kept up with the world of virus in MS. People don't write most viruses, computers create them off of a assembly line. Indeed, there are now virus factories on the web. If you want to create your own unique virus, you just log into a virus factory site and tell it what you want. It gives you a nice shiny new virus that no one has ever seen before. I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day! Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day!

Amazing! I guess it is a correct assumption. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linux Tyro said the following on 11/17/2011 12:51 AM:

...

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day! Amazing! I guess it is a correct assumption. No guesswork involved; Its not an assumption, its an observation.

That's an important difference.

Take a break - found this last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=XEZtw1yt8Kc We have to look at 12.1 now; let Tyro work it out by himself like most of us did .... fighting scant insight and self-inflicted ideology is futile. :-) Dreiel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* *11/16/11: Did a Google search on the keywords 'Microsoft' and 'lawsuit' or 'lawsuits' and got 22,850,000 hits. WOW! (12/18/09: was 7,420,000 hits) (06/02/09: was 2,767,000 hits)* -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:55:36 -0600, Linux Tyro wrote:

Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest' comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest plus point.

You are still equating "easy" with "I don't have to research my questions before asking them" - and that's incorrect. As I suggested before, visit the forums; many of our users are novices and ask "entry-level" questions after doing some research. But as in life, any time you want to learn a new skill, you have to do some work to acquire it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org