Am Sonntag, 11. Februar 2007 schrieb Billie Erin Walsh:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sunday 11 February 2007 15:11, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

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As far as I know I only use four apps that require Gnome. Firefox, Thunderbird, Gftp and Gramps. Well, maybe five if you include Sunbird. NOW I can't even update my KDE stuff without getting into LONG strings of Gnome conflicts.

Exactly what do you mean by "update my KDE stuff"? Are you installing KDE updates from the build service?

If you are, you should be aware that those are bleeding edge experimental packages, and hardly something you should mess with if you just want your computer to work. Those packages are for people who like to play around with their installs, and aren't afraid of breaking things in the process

Just "update" through the normal SuSE oss/nonoss repos, packman, guru, etc.

and what exactly IS "etc" on your box? post the output of "zypper sl" here, otherwise noone can help you. bye, MH -- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

Mathias Homann wrote:

...

and what exactly IS "etc" on your box? post the output of "zypper sl" here, otherwise noone can help you.

[snip] 8 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070204-092526 | http://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/s... 9 | No | Yes | YaST | 20070113-114820 | http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.2/repo/oss/ 10 | Yes | Yes | YUM | SUSE-Linux-10.2-Updates | http://ftp.ale.org/pub/suse/update/10.2

[snip]

Ummm you have the factory as an installation source. As Anders said, if you are using experimental code you are going to have issues if you are looking for a stable machine. Please read the info on what the factory is for: http://en.opensuse.org/Factory_Distribution 10.2 has been rock solid for me. I would recommend you try again and be more conservative on your installation sources... Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

Mathias Homann wrote:

...

and what exactly IS "etc" on your box? post the output of "zypper sl" here, otherwise noone can help you.

bye, MH

You mean you don't have an "etc" repo in your list. *<[:oD just kidding!!

"zypper sl":

...

linux-etcy:/home/billie0w # zypper sl # | Enabled | Refresh | Type | Name | URI ---+---------+---------+------+----------------------------------------+- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- 1 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070113-133340 | http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/suser-guru/rpm/10.2/RPMS/ 2 | Yes | Yes | YaST | 20070128-213330 | ftp://ftp.skynet.be/%2f/pub/ftp.opensuse.org/opensuse/distribution/10.2/r epo/non-oss/ 3 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070113-132730 | http://packman.iu-bremen.de/suse/10.2/ 4 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070128-210619 | http://download.videolan.org/pub/vlc/SuSE/10.2 5 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070128-211654 | http://www2.ati.com/suse 6 | Yes | Yes | YUM | http://packman.iu-bremen.de/suse/10.2/ | http://packman.iu-bremen.de/suse/10.2/ 7 | Yes | No | YaST | 20070113-052334 | cd:///?devices=/dev/hdc 8 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070204-092526 | http://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-sourc e/suse/ 9 | No | Yes | YaST | 20070113-114820 | http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.2/repo/oss/ 10 | Yes | Yes | YUM | SUSE-Linux-10.2-Updates | http://ftp.ale.org/pub/suse/update/10.2 11 | No | Yes | YaST | 20070113-115505 | http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.2/repo/non-oss/ 12 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070128-211458 | ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/linux/misc/suser-crauch/10.2/ 13 | Yes | Yes | YUM | 20070113-201957 | http://packman.unixheads.com/suse/10.2/ linux-etcy:/home/billie0w #

Half the reason you have time to watch a movie is you have three different packman sources that all have to be cross checked. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:46, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

While I was waiting for the "new" install of 10.2 to set up the Yast update sources I watched an episode and a half of American Hotrod. That's about an hour and a half. Well, actually an hour and forty-five minutes. And that's just the "stock" sources.

Why would suse be released like this? Why don't they fix it? -- ************************************** Powered by Mandriva Linux 2007 KDE 3.5.4 KMail 1.9.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ************************************** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 05:13, J Sloan wrote:

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Why would suse be released like this? Why don't they fix it?

10.2 works quite nicely for the majority of users here, but you can't please everyone - or every environment...

Yep, except that ZMD is still rather painful. At least now you can shake & bake it to make it do things it should, but it's still FAR from being solid. I would be really astonished if SUSE managed to get ZMD into any real life large scale deployment. It's just not ready yet. -- // Janne -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 19:48, Bryan Tyson wrote:

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 19:13 -0800, J Sloan wrote:

...

all systems here are running better than any previous release of linux I've tried.

I think it runs just fine. I have no complaints about how it runs. My objection is that to install one measly package takes so long I have to go away and do something else while it scans the repositories. How do you set it up so that packages can be installed in a normal length of time? And why does it not come that way by default?

It does. By default there are no repositories. If you add more, it will take longer to scan them all If you are sure your repos don't change, you can set them to "refresh no" in the config, but odds are if you do that, the online repos will change from under you Use only the minimal number of online repositories, to optimise the package manager for speed -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 11:48, Bryan Tyson wrote:

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 19:13 -0800, J Sloan wrote:

...

all systems here are running better than any previous release of linux I've tried.

I think it runs just fine. I have no complaints about how it runs. My objection is that to install one measly package takes so long I have to go away and do something else while it scans the repositories.

Just for clarity, in 10.2 you can choose from several package management systems. Under YaST->Software Management->Patterns both Enterprise Software Management (ZENworks Linux Management) and openSUSE Software Management are available. The first one is essentially the same as from 10.1 and I agree with you it is still ridiculously slow. However I've found the openSUSE Software Management choice works quite well and is *much* faster than ZEN and friends.

How do you set it up so that packages can be installed in a normal length of time?

I don't know what you consider a normal length of time, but I just fired up YaST -> Software management and it took 36 seconds to scan the repositories and bring up the installation screen (I have 5 listed, one set to refresh). I imagine there is still room for improvement here, but this is by no means a showstopper for me.

And why does it not come that way by default?

Unfortunately the installation defaults to the Enterprise version. From your complaints it sounds like you went with the default. (correct?) I know you've said you've gotten rid of 10.2 for these reasons, but if you like it otherwise, you might to try it again, and avoid ZEN and company. -- Don -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Don Raboud wrote:

On Monday 12 February 2007 11:48, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 19:13 -0800, J Sloan wrote:

...

all systems here are running better than any previous release of linux I've tried.

I think it runs just fine. I have no complaints about how it runs. My objection is that to install one measly package takes so long I have to go away and do something else while it scans the repositories.

Just for clarity, in 10.2 you can choose from several package management systems. Under YaST->Software Management->Patterns both

Enterprise Software Management (ZENworks Linux Management) and openSUSE Software Management

are available. The first one is essentially the same as from 10.1 and I agree with you it is still ridiculously slow.

However I've found the openSUSE Software Management choice works quite well and is *much* faster than ZEN and friends.

...

How do you set it up so that packages can be installed in a normal length of time?

I don't know what you consider a normal length of time, but I just fired up YaST -> Software management and it took 36 seconds to scan the repositories and bring up the installation screen (I have 5 listed, one set to refresh). I imagine there is still room for improvement here, but this is by no means a showstopper for me.

...

And why does it not come that way by default?

Unfortunately the installation defaults to the Enterprise version. From your complaints it sounds like you went with the default. (correct?)

I know you've said you've gotten rid of 10.2 for these reasons, but if you like it otherwise, you might to try it again, and avoid ZEN and company.

So why is ZEN the default? Will it be so in 10.3? Or will ZEN run at a reasonable speed by then (and I don't mean because "computers have got faster" ;-) ) Russell Jones -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 13 February 2007 18:19, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

...

On Monday 12 February 2007 11:48, Bryan Tyson wrote: Just for clarity, in 10.2 you can choose from several package management systems. Under YaST->Software Management->Patterns both

Where do you find "Patterns"? I followed the path as described but see nothing about "Patterns".

YaST -> Software Management ... Opens by default to "Search" in the combo box (just under the Menu items). Use this combo box to select "Patterns" -- Don -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:05, Bryan S. Tyson wrote:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:46, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

While I was waiting for the "new" install of 10.2 to set up the Yast update sources I watched an episode and a half of American Hotrod. That's about an hour and a half. Well, actually an hour and forty-five minutes. And that's just the "stock" sources.

Why would suse be released like this? Why don't they fix it? -- ************************************** Powered by Mandriva Linux 2007 KDE 3.5.4 KMail 1.9.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer

Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net **************************************

Wow, after a million crying replies we come to this LOL.. M$ Products are the same, there are patches for security issues found, and updates to software etc.. Maybe they will start doing "Gold Mastered" versions of all openSuSE versions about 1/2 way through it's lifetime . -- Ben Kevan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon 12 Feb 2007 18:58, Bryan Tyson wrote:

why doesn't OpenSuse have a package system that works.

- my first impressions of "smart" - Good, Good :) best regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Monday 12 February 2007 11:03, riccardo35@gmail.com wrote:

...

On Mon 12 Feb 2007 18:58, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

why doesn't OpenSuse have a package system that works.

_________

- my first impressions of "smart" - Good, Good :)

SMART rox!

I have it running on three systems and have no complaints.

Agreed smart is pretty nice - but yast has improved enough that it's not so painful on 10.2 in comparison to the situation that existed with10.1. That said, I tend to use YOU for core updates, and smart for the goodies (desktop bling, multimedia etc) Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 21:51, Bryan Tyson wrote:

On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 12:12 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

SMART rox! I have it running on three systems and have no complaints.

Does this mean you use smart instead of yast? Or does it somehow supplement yast?

I should clarify - I haven't found the need to update to 10.2 yet. I'm still on 10.1 on three systems. I use only SMART and haven't touched YAST for software in a few months now. I also have ZEN and its ilk not enabled on the systems. Even the "new and improved" Zen didn't want to correctly perform my updates on one of my desktops, when I gave it a try. I figured SMART works so leave it at that. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

SMART rox!

I have it running on three systems and have no complaints.

Does smart to post-install actions by now? I.e., does it call SuSEconfig and restart servers after updating packages? A few months ago, when I looked last, it didn't. Has this changed in the meantime? (I'm still on 10.0 and apt, which works like a charm; but for the future I need to change probably.) Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue 13 Feb 2007 13:12, Joachim Schrod wrote:

I'm still on 10.0 and apt, which works like a charm

- if you like APT, then, SMART will be familiar & friendly cheers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Coming to you from 10.1 while I try to salvage some downloads from my 10.2 box and decide which method to use on 10.2: 1) Dynamite 2) Shotgun 3) Sledge Hammer Personally, I'm tending towards the dynamite. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:19:14 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> took time to say the following: BEW<>Coming to you from 10.1 while I try to salvage some downloads from my BEW<>10.2 box and decide which method to use on 10.2: BEW<> BEW<>1) Dynamite BEW<>2) Shotgun BEW<>3) Sledge Hammer BEW<> BEW<>Personally, I'm tending towards the dynamite. BEW<> BEW<>-- BEW<>(o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) BEW<>Billie Walsh BEW<>The three best words in the English Language: BEW<>"I LOVE YOU" BEW<>Pass them on! Well, the first two will probably have the police at your door! <grin> Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. -Will Rogers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:59:58 +0000, Dylan <dylan@dylan.me.uk> took time to say the following: <>On Sunday 11 February 2007, Charles R. Buchanan wrote: <>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:19:14 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> <>> took time to say the following: <>> <>> BEW<>Coming to you from 10.1 while I try to salvage some downloads from my <>^^^^^^^^^ <> <>Where, exactly, did you get this quoting scheme from? Are you aware that it <>breaks the quoting scheme making it difficult, not to mention ugly, reading <>threads? <> <>Dylan Just for you I turned the initial off. Happy Now? I'm telling you, people bitch about the silliest things for some reason! Geez! Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. -Will Rogers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:12:25 -0500, Patrick Shanahan <ptilopteri@gmail.com> took time to say the following:

* Charles R. Buchanan <charles@daphatbell.com> [02-11-07 11:09]: [...]

...

Just for you I turned the initial off. Happy Now? I'm telling you, people bitch about the silliest things for some reason! Geez!

well, he's not alone, and '<>' and '(^_^)' also break....

but you do what you want....

-- Patrick Shanahan

Ok, granted, when I re-installed everything early this morning, I had a brain fart and turned the initials on. My Bad. I used the smiley faces to lighten things up because (some) people are just way too serious about stuff that really isn't about life or death. Ok, maybe some will die defending their Linux box, but still, I think people ought to lighten up a little. It wasn't like I was here purposely trying to piss people off, although granted I have my own buttons that people push all the time, which were covered before so not going to re-hash things. :-) Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. -Will Rogers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:07:23 -0600, "Rajko M." <rmatov101@charter.net> took time to say the following:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 10:28, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

I used the smiley faces to lighten things up because (some) people are just way too serious about stuff that really isn't about life or death.

KMail has ability to colorize what comes after quote marker which is by default set to > and that is information for KMail how to format received email. If you set quote marker to something else than reading is somewhat harder, but thanks to huge markers :-) even without colors it is not really hard.

-- Regards, Rajko.

Thanks Rajko. Gonna have to try that once I'm back on that side of the world! :-) I use Becky here on Windows because it's the best one I have found, and trust me, over the years, I have tried a LOT of email clients. :-O I use KMail on Linux. I just wish everything I wish to do on Linux wasn't a giant PITA fistfight everytime just to do something simple. <rant> Some might disagree or have a problem with it, but the possibilty of Linux ever replacing Windows in this household is nil. I install the drivers for my video card on XP, re-boot, it works. Don't have to install the drivers, then run a command afterwards and then find out that now after doing all of this, it won't even launch the GUI. I have a 5.1 sound system hooked up. Sounds fantastic under XP, sounds like crap under Linux. No matter what I do with the mixer, or the equalizer on xmms. At least with xmms I can play mp3's. This is why I said awhile back that these things are the reason(s) why Linux isn't ready for primetime. It's not that Linux sucks and the other BS that people like to throw out there, especially against M$. I'm not here defending M$, but until Linux gets to the point where one doesn't have to jump through hoops just to do something that "should" be automatic, it will be hard pressed to win over most people who are using Windows. Competition is ALWAYS good! The BIGGEST advantage over Windows that I like about Linux is, you don't have to re-boot twenty times when installing either the OS itself, or a program. It saves wear and tear on your hardware. So IMHO, in order for Linux to hugely cut into the home user market (which it's trying to do), it has to solve these issues. A lot of people see Linux more as a business type OS. You setup a server using Linux and basically forget it. It usually runs forever, but you have to admit that a lot of software developers aren't jumping on the bandwagon because there's no market for them. Most home users use Windows. Windows isn't free, and in a free market, business aren't in business to NOT make money. So to end this, the market share is out there for the taking, just have to solve these irritants IMO. With that said, SuSe has come the closest to bridging that gap. They just have a ways to go in my opinion. </rant> For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 20:59, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels

I'm curious, what is the source of this quote?

It continues The record shows I took the blows and did it my way My way, as translated by Paul Anka and made famous by Frank Sinatra -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 21:33, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:05:08 +0100, Anders Johansson <andjoh@rydsbo.net> took time to say the following:

...

On Sunday 11 February 2007 20:59, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

...

For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels

I'm curious, what is the source of this quote?

It continues The record shows I took the blows and did it my way

My way, as translated by Paul Anka and made famous by Frank Sinatra

Admit it, you looked that up didn't you? <grin> :-)

Oh please, I have every record Sinatra ever recorded (that were released that is - and a few that weren't, including one from the 70s where he sings disco). I also managed to see him live three times - so no, I didn't have to look it up :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:59:56 -0600, "Peter Van Lone" <petervl@gmail.com> took time to say the following:

On 2/11/07, Charles R. Buchanan <charles@daphatbell.com> wrote:

...

So to end this, the market share is out there for the taking, just have to solve these irritants IMO. With that said, SuSe has come the closest to bridging that gap. They just have a ways to go in my opinion.

I agree, "linux" has a way to go. I also agree that SUSE is getting close. But IMHO the biggest obstacle currently (or the item that would speed progress the most) is to have pre-installation agreements with major hardware vendors.

*MOST* windows users don't interact with installation in anyway ... nor should they have to with linux. If the hardware is explicity supported by the OEM then most issues go away.

having said that, I still think there are a variety of things (some small, some more to do with process, some major like DVD licensing) that need to be addressed. I wish there was a wiki somewhere that a list of these things could be posted/maintained/argued about and where Novell would pay some attention to it. I would think that the "better desktop initiative" would want that kind of involvement.

Granted on one level, it's nice to be able to configure things to ones liking(s), and that's fine and dandy, but for the most part, major things like video drivers and the such, it should be a lot painless than it is.

...

For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels

I'm curious, what is the source of this quote?

peter

Frank Sinatra. (Yes, I know it's a Paul Anka song) :-) In this world of politcally correctness, it's hard to find someone who doesn't kneel! For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Tom Horsley wrote:

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:33:50 -0800 "Charles R. Buchanan" <charles@daphatbell.com> wrote:

...

Granted on one level, it's nice to be able to configure things to ones liking(s), and that's fine and dandy, but for the most part, major things like video drivers and the such, it should be a lot painless than it is.

For my amusing experiences over on Fedora setting up video, see:

http://home.att.net/~Tom.Horsley/easy-linux.html

Oddly enough, the ease of the suse video driver installation has regressed since the time of 9.3 and before. It used to be that you could simply click on a checkbox in online update that said "install nvidia drivers", and you were good to go. period. no tweaking of configs, no building of drivers, no worrying about reinstalling the driver if the kernel gets updated. IIUC it was pressure from a shrill anti binary driver faction among the kernel devs that led novell to revert to the more awkward manual procedure we now find ourselves with. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:13, Peter Van Lone wrote: ...

I do still think, that much of the answer to this part of the problem is "hardware packaging".

Short of actually pre-installing the OS, If SUSE could for example, make arrangements with HP to provide a "proven to work" set of drivers for several series of desktops and laptops ... and then allow the installation program to be pointed at "resources for this hardware" .... then issues like this would be greatly diminished.

P

Great idea Peter, but HP is quite shy to admit that they have any hardware that works with Linux. The reason, probably their own HP-UX operating system. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2/11/07, Benjamin Rosenberg <red.kryptonite@gmail.com> wrote:

Nah. HP-UX runs on PA-Risc processors. I think they just are still to damn afraid to piss off Microsoft plain and simple.

well I did only use HP as an example, but I think you are right in part (that they are hesitant to piss off microsoft). I think another reason for not pre-installing linux, is that it is costly to setup and maintain the driver verification and system imaging process. And there is real question as to whether there would be a market that would make it profitable to do so. that's why I think that SUSE should change the install process, to enable a "system hardware" cd to be referenced. I don't really see why Novell could not, in partnership with HP, put together the correct drivers/support software for a given set of systems specs. Then HP could make the ISO available to download, or it could be shipped with a system if the customer asked for the SUSE linux option. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:59:58 -0500, Brian J Berrigan <bberrign@renc.igs.net> took time to say the following:

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well? Or are they mind numbed robots? :-D For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:30:18 -0500, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> took time to say the following:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:21, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well?  Or are they mind numbed robots?

Sure they can pick what they want.

1) Pull out wallet 2) Pay the price 3) Put up with the problems 4) Reboot, reboot, reboot ad nauseum

I could rationalize that with Linux as well. With maybe the exception of #4 For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:17, Bruce Marshall wrote:

What did you pay for Opensuse..... Or Ubuntu?

Hours, and hours, and hours of work. Sometimes accompanied by much cursing and swearing! (And $14 for a DVD, since I don't have enough bandwidth :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> [02-11-07 20:36]: [...]

And then there are those like my friend. She used to play DVDs on her computer, but now finds she has to download some software to do so.

Guess you need to build your on box and install xp, then see how you can play dvds or cds. You *still* have to get software and will have to pay $$$s for it. You buy a box with windoz on it and pay for the additional software which the builder or his agent has installed. Most of it crippled in some manner or delivering advertisements for your pleasure. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Mike McMullin <mwmcmlln@mnsi.net> [02-12-07 16:35]:

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 20:41 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Guess you need to build your on box and install xp, then see how you can play dvds or cds. You *still* have to get software and will have to pay $$$s for it.

You buy a box with windoz on it and pay for the additional software which the builder or his agent has installed. Most of it crippled in some manner or delivering advertisements for your pleasure.

Actually my XPHome-sp2 will do both without additional software, but I'm not overly fond of Windows Media player. :/

Ah, but you did buy additional software. xpHome is an upgrade (very loose language here) from xp and costs moooorre $$$$s. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I didn't pay for XP, it was a freebie from my hardware pusher, and still properly >licensed.

Sure you did, the cost was just included in the price of the hardware. I don't think any hardware pusher would pay ms and not in turn charge you. -- John Registered Linux User 263680, get counted at http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:30, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:21, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well?  Or are they mind numbed robots?

Sure they can pick what they want.

1) Pull out wallet 2) Pay the price 3) Put up with the problems

I surely put up with more problems on my Linux boxes than I do with my Mac. And no one I'm aware of is giving away systems capable of serving as Linux desktop or server systems. Nor, in fact, is there any totally cost-free way of acquiring a Linux distribution.

4) Reboot, reboot, reboot ad nauseum

Bullshit. Macs are very reliable, stable and predictable and do better than Linux in certain application areas, such as graphics, publishing and media. True, the best-of-breed applications in some of these areas are far from cheap, but then, the best-of-breed applications are really only needed by professionals and serious students in professional fields I would not want to surrender either Linux or the Mac. Windows can go to hell, of course. RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon February 12 2007 3:17 am, DElyMyth scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

On 2/12/07, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

...

1) Pull out wallet 2) Pay the price 3) Put up with the problems 4) Reboot, reboot, reboot ad nauseum

First of all, I use all OSs, Windows (parents' PC's and some virtual machines), openSuSE (10.1 and 10.2), fedora (core 6) and own three macs.

My macs never had problems and my laptop has almost one month uptime, so I can agree with point 1 and 2 (but you can live without buying software and sticking with free programs on macs too, take a look at versiontracker.com), and definitely *not* with points 3 and 4.

Moreover, I had serious problems with openSuSE 10.2 and some 10.1 installations, and rebooting *twice* during the installation procedure reminds me the "old windows days", not to speak about the new Kde menu in openSuSE 10.2, which is a real nightmare to use.

change it. IIRC it's a mouse click to do..ight click on the chameleon and choose "Switch to Kmenu style" and it's back to the "old" KDE way ... HTH -- j -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:21, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies. So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well? Or are they mind numbed robots?

Sure they can pick what they want.

1) Pull out wallet 2) Pay the price 3) Put up with the problems 4) Reboot, reboot, reboot ad nauseum

Hi, in all fairness, this does not hold truth anymore. And I _really_ like Linux very much: 1) You need to pay for windows, but otherwise, most things that you want from windows can be done with free (as in pay) tools. So you can leave your wallet, where it is. Ex. I run Windows successfully n one of my machines and did not pay a dime, except for the basic OS and the virus scanner and at the same time I did not pirate any software. Admittedly, any time I do a presentation with this laptop, customers are wondering that they need to pay for to achieve the things I have freely on my machine. 2) If you are working with OSS on windows, you just need to pay for the OS (and possibly the virusscanner, if clamwin i.e. clamAV for windows is not what you want). 3) Well, this is applicable for Linux, as well, I guess. ;-) 4) this stoneold "reboot" legend seemingly never goes away. However it is mostly cited by people who did not use windows since w9x/NT4 times. Ex. I never had a single crash on windows since w2k and I cannot recall the last reboot I had to do because of an installtion. At the same time this means that the "reality outside of Linux" is not as hostile as it used to be. Maybe this is the reason why 95% of all PCs continue to be driven by redmond systems. regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

...

4) this stoneold "reboot" legend seemingly never goes away. However it is mostly cited by people who did not use windows since w9x/NT4 times. Ex. I never had a single crash on windows since w2k and I cannot recall the last reboot I had to do because of an installtion.

I'd like to know what version of Windows you're using then. I recently got a nice blue screen on my XP install at home. I dared install a webcam driver - ok, you can blame that on the driver in this case.

XP, currently I am using an extremly slim and stripped down version that I built myself. If you are interested, please see: http://www.nliteos.com/index.html.

As for reboots... I counted reboots needed to get my computer up and running on XP - and I started counting after the initial install which does several reboots. At 13 reboots, I was getting close to done. I have to reboot after almost each and every install - especially drivers. It's so common, that I'm pleasantly surprised when I install some application and no reboot is needed.

ok, for install I had three reboots, then for OpenOffice, Gimp, wireshark, cygwin and anthing else. I cannot recall any one reboot. When installing hardware, this might be different, but I never had the impression that XP needs to many reboots. In contrast, I recall NT4 and even w2k to be "reboot machines". For sure windows needs more reboots than linux does, but does this qualify as a quality grade for an OS? I have my doubts...

I can't say that it is a stoneold legend. it's very much reality on my computer.

So we are lucky to boot only once per day, we Linux users, aren't we? Kind regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...

For sure windows needs more reboots than linux does, but does this qualify as a quality grade for an OS? I have my doubts...

this become quite OT... but if you are in the way of compiling a video film (6 hours work) and you want to install an utility that need reboot, you do what?

jdd

Well, although it is OT, I would probably save my work to disk, install the utility, reboot, reload my work and continue with my freshly installed utility. Admitteldly I never compiled a video, never do any work without regularly saving the status to disk, and never do system administration while I have valuable things that I do not want to destroy in front of me ;-)) Now, if you worked in X, then did some work on the text terminal (ctrl-alt-F2), then you returned and found your X to be so garbled that you cannot see anything, not to mention saving your valuable work, you do what? This happened to me. kind regards+back2work Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff wrote:

jdd wrote:

...

Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...

For sure windows needs more reboots than linux does, but does this qualify as a quality grade for an OS? I have my doubts...

this become quite OT... but if you are in the way of compiling a video film (6 hours work) and you want to install an utility that need reboot, you do what?

jdd

Well,

although it is OT, I would probably save my work to disk, install the utility, reboot, reload my work and continue with my freshly installed utility. Admitteldly I never compiled a video, never do any work without regularly saving the status to disk, and never do system administration while I have valuable things that I do not want to destroy in front of me ;-))

Now, if you worked in X, then did some work on the text terminal (ctrl-alt-F2), then you returned and found your X to be so garbled that you cannot see anything, not to mention saving your valuable work, you do what? This happened to me.

Perhaps use the kill command to shut down those apps and then restart X. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Another nice item instead of using the kill command from the CLI is to do cntrl +alt +esc. This results in the cursor changing to a skull and crossbones, at least in KDE, then you can just click on the app and kill it if it is not responding.

Do you know how many times I do that on my XP computer at work? And then curse and swear when it doesn't work. :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Art Fore wrote:

Another nice item instead of using the kill command from the CLI is to do cntrl +alt +esc. This results in the cursor changing to a skull and crossbones, at least in KDE, then you can just click on the app and kill it if it is not responding. I just learned something. Thanks for this useful piece of information.

Damon Register -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 10:10, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

Now, if you worked in X, then did some work on the text terminal (ctrl-alt-F2), then you returned and found your X to be so garbled that you cannot see anything, not to mention saving your valuable work, you do what? This happened to me. What you're describing is very very rare... but what you do is the following: 1) ctrl-alt-F2 (again) 2) alt-F7

This will usually take care of the problem. If not try this: 1) ctrl-alt-F1 2) su - (give the root passward) 3) init 3 (wait until the system is in run level 3 4) init 5 (wait until the system is in run level 5 Now continue as before.... if you were in a document you will be given the opportunity to recover from where you left off... usually losing little if any. The cool thing to keep in mind here is that when the desktop on Linux crashes (and it rarely does) you do not have to reboot the entire machine to get it back... just shutdown the desktop and restart X... the machine keeps right on running (as any good OS would). Unfortunately windoze binds its desktop too closely to the kernel (huge design snafu) and so when the desktop crashes the OS must be restarted... bad OS, bad. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

you have to reboot after installing an app or utility or just about anything else, you're running the wrong OS.

we where speaking of some W drawbacks :-) and I have no Linux app doing what I need here jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Le manuel d'optique de Lucien Dodin http://lesprismes.free.fr/optique/index.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 12:21, Clayton wrote:

...

ok, for install I had three reboots, then for OpenOffice, Gimp, wireshark, cygwin and anthing else. I cannot recall any one reboot.

OK, fine, but you're using opensource apps.. try some commercial apps. They LOVE rebooting after an install.

...

So we are lucky to boot only once per day, we Linux users, aren't we?

I boot my Linux computer... ummm.. I forget... when I install a new version, and once it's working (ie video drivers updated/installed) I can go months without restarting. My Linux computer runs 24x7. Teh windows machines i use usually can't go a full week without needing a restart for some silly reason or another.

C

I have two XP machines that can run for a month or so without a reboot. Eventually though, things start to get screwed up (Without installing any additional software). I believe that Microsoft's memory management does not properly clean up after itself. My Linux installs, once fully installed do not need a reboot. It drives me nuts when I have to reboot Windows just to have an application complete it's install and be useable. This can sometimes (though not always) be circumvented by registering the DLLs via the regsrv32 command, but that can be a PITA. - James W. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 06:36, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:21, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well? Or are they mind numbed robots?

Sure they can pick what they want.

1) Pull out wallet 2) Pay the price 3) Put up with the problems 4) Reboot, reboot, reboot ad nauseum

Hi,

in all fairness, this does not hold truth anymore.

And I _really_ like Linux very much:

1) You need to pay for windows, but otherwise, most things that you want from windows can be done with free (as in pay) tools. So you can leave your wallet, where it is.

Ex. I run Windows successfully n one of my machines and did not pay a dime, except for the basic OS and the virus scanner and at the same time I did not pirate any software. Admittedly, any time I do a presentation with this laptop, customers are wondering that they need to pay for to achieve the things I have freely on my machine.

There are many OSS or at least free Windows-based apps, that it true. However, you usually need to purchase or pirate most apps to get what you want done.

2) If you are working with OSS on windows, you just need to pay for the OS (and possibly the virusscanner, if clamwin i.e. clamAV for windows is not what you want).

I use AGV or Avast! on my Wintendo boxes.

3) Well, this is applicable for Linux, as well, I guess. ;-)

Yes, as I always say: "Linux - it sucks less than Windows."

4) this stoneold "reboot" legend seemingly never goes away. However it is mostly cited by people who did not use windows since w9x/NT4 times. Ex. I never had a single crash on windows since w2k and I cannot recall the last reboot I had to do because of an installtion.

Don't install much then, do you? I just intalled an app on Wintendo the other day (Crystal Reports XI) and it asked me to reboot not once but twice. This is on a WinXP box with Service Pack 2 and .net runtime 2.0. As for the BSOD, I get one on a regular basis on any one of my machines. Typically, I have between six and ten applicaitons open on my workstations (Linux or Wintendo) and find that Windows seems to not be able to handle the memory leaks. Keep in mind that WinXP - by default - hides the BSOD from you, unless you change a setting to show the blue screen.

At the same time this means that the "reality outside of Linux" is not as hostile as it used to be. Maybe this is the reason why 95% of all PCs continue to be driven by redmond systems.

Maybe. Maybe it is the fact that Redmond employs some very shady tactics form lies, inusults, bribery and extortion to ensure PC manufactures such as Dell, HP and so on don't ship workstations pre-installed with anything but Wintendo. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 13:24 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Example http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007020819534335

If anyone has not seen these yet, you really should. They are long but entertaining, and at times they are surprisingly funny. http://iowaconsumercase.org/lc-8.html Bryan -- *************************************** Powered by Fedora Linux 6 Gnome 2.16.0 Evolution 2.8.0 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net *************************************** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 19:58, Bryan Tyson wrote:

On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 09:24 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Keep in mind that WinXP - by default - hides the BSOD from you, unless you change a setting to show the blue screen.

I did not know that! When there is a BSOD but it is hidden, what happens to the computer, or what does the screen look like? What does the user experience, a frozen system? Where is the setting to unhide the BSOD?

Bryan --

It reboots.. Right Click My Computer --> Properties --> Error reporting or something.. Also, you can change the BSOD to a different color.. Mine is a GSOD notepad.exe %systemroot%\system.ini Find the [386enh] section and add or change the following lines: MessageBackColor=# MessageTextColor=# #'s are: 0 = black 1 = blue 2 = green 3 = cyan 4 = red 5 = magenta 6 = yellow/brown 7 = white 8 = gray 9 = bright blue A = bright green B = bright cyan C = bright red D = bright magenta E = bright yellow F = bright white Be sure to use CAPITALS if you use A - F Save and reboot.. :) Ben Kevan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 22:58 -0500, Bryan Tyson wrote:

On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 09:24 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Keep in mind that WinXP - by default - hides the BSOD from you, unless you change a setting to show the blue screen.

I did not know that! When there is a BSOD but it is hidden, what happens to the computer, or what does the screen look like? What does the user experience, a frozen system? Where is the setting to unhide the BSOD?

I have not idea, I haven't tweaked my XP at all and just Saturday Night I got a BSOD regarding USB, and once again I had to downgrade my hardware, (i. e. plug my USB-trackball into the the PS2 port) in order to get XP to run. I'm seriously thinking of looking for a copy of Mac-OS for Intel's. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 14:21, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:59:58 -0500, Brian J Berrigan <bberrign@renc.igs.net> took time to say the following:

...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

So would that mean that users of Windows/Macs, etc... are "free" to choose what they want to run as well?

the simple logic is that a statement about linux is...a statement about linux. What you quoted above did not use words like windows or mac. Why do you try to put words in other peoples writings?

Or are they mind numbed robots?

hellooo out there!!!! someone uses words like freedom of choice and you translate them to mind numbed robots? any body home in there??? dimitris

:-D

For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:04:00 -0500, Brian J Berrigan <bberrign@renc.igs.net> took time to say the following:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 15:33, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

...

...

...

So to end this, the market share is out there for the taking, just have to solve these irritants IMO. With that said, SuSe has come the closest to bridging that gap. They just have a ways to go in my opinion.

...

Granted on one level, it's nice to be able to configure things to ones liking(s), and that's fine and dandy, but for the most part, major things like video drivers and the such, it should be a lot painless than it is.

...

Frank Sinatra. (Yes, I know it's a Paul Anka song) :-)

Well Mr CB i am getting sick and tired of your stupid grousing. Pages and pages wasted by your pro-MS shots and anti-Linux diatribes.

Worse still is all the inane replies they incite. Linux is NOT MS, thank heaven, and for most of us it is easy to READ the F_Manuals, then if needed, dig up some HOWTO's and archives or ask intelligent questions of the helpful gurus here. But you just seem to relish the puerile attention you get by messing up installations and then ranting on and on. Guess you know your emails are now blocked here...give me a break...

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

WHAT A MAN! Talk crap and then block someone. What a bee atch! ! Oh well! , guess I'll commit siucide now! Like Frank says..... stand up wuss! Too bad that Micro$oft has so much control over your life. Yep, Freedom, don't you love when certain people use that word but have NO idea what it means? How DARE I have an opinion! So I'm going to (try again) to end this one by a quote: "Semper fi I'm ready for a fight These First Amendment rights are guaranteed to me Regardless if I say sh!t you don't like" Yep, that goes BOTH ways. It's not always WHAT is said, it's HOW it's said! With ALL of that said, I will abide what the list wishes. If people want me off the list, I will un-subscribe. That will be the end of my "inane replies" and take my Microsoft loving butt else where. My intentions was NOT to start a flame war. but I guess Brianna wants one. Don't have the courage to stand behind her words, so as I have found out, I'm sure people will start piling on again. I don't apologize for having an opinion. I expect to have one until the day I leave this earth. I have tried to temper my comments as far as Linux is concerned, especially after the I Give up thread. While Brianna insinuate that I don't read the F______ manual, I guess every soul on this list that has EVER asked a question doesn't read it either, but that wouldn't fit her template/agenda. So guess I'll go and try to enjoy my dinner now. P.S. Just in case the vast majority wants me gone, I would like to take this opportunity to thank first of all, Carl, Carlos, Rajko and others who have helped me (and chastised me on occasion) along. Can you imagine a school (ANY school) that you or your kids goes to and the teacher passes out the book and that's it? I've read more things then I have advertised and I have also tried things that I have read. Sure, there were some small bits of things that I missed that made matters more difficult, but I have never claimed I was a rocket scientist and have admitted I was basically new to this. Anyway, I'm rambling now. DUH! For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2/11/07, Brian J Berrigan <bberrign@renc.igs.net> wrote:

Worse still is all the inane replies they incite. Linux is NOT MS, thank heaven, and for most of us it is easy to READ the F_Manuals, then if needed, dig up some HOWTO's and archives or ask intelligent questions of the helpful gurus here. But you just seem to relish the puerile attention you get by messing up installations and then ranting on and on. Guess you know your emails are now blocked here...give me a break...

here is the rub of divergent goals in the linux community. I really have no problem rolling up my sleeves to figure stuff out ... especially when I am doing so to entertain my private desire (and glee in) avoiding M$ payments tripe. However, much of my time working with linux is done with an eye towards helping my customers get off of the M$ bandwagon to the greatest extent possilble. for the most part, they CANNOT do that, when the installation and support issues are as unresolved as they are. I need to be able to help them in a way that will allow them to be comfortable that "they can do it" without having to hire linux admins with 15 years experience. I need to be able to put together installation procedures and hardware support guidlines and etc ... so that they can do this. It is here that I *personally* get frustrated, because of: 1) my own lack of experience and 2) the lack of polish in many basic procedures/processes. Far too much relies on "sweat of the brow" work ... (remember, this is all MY OPINION) Despite the above, I do think it is close ... and I would surely love to find a commuity of SUSE users/admins that want to share ideas/complaints/suggestions for how to make SUSE linux much more popular, and much more likely to actually have a chance of taking some M$ marketshare. This list, unfortunately, is not it. There are many many helpful people on this list ... but for the most part it seems to be folks that relish the current "outsider" quality of linux, and I think generally do not want linux (or, "thier distro perhaps) to penetrate deeply into the corporate desktop and/or home markets. That's fine, I get it. But I want it to grow, and I think lots of others do, too ... and for it to grow it needs more polish. You can say that such criticism is "M$ baiting" or simply an inanity if you want. But, to me ... it is struggling and hoping to one day find linux in the "M$ defeating" camp.

Linux is: Freedom, of choice, from gates & windows, from illegal monopolies.

And I do not think that the above expressed desires are at odds with or wholly incompatible with the realities of free choice and OSS in general. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:07, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

Just for you I turned the initial off. Happy Now? I'm telling you, people bitch about the silliest things for some reason! Geez!

Good, because he's not the only one who finds it very annoying and it makes scanning of list mails a PITA, 1 ">" is plenty David -- Windows Sucks! Linux Works! Windows Crashes! Linux Has A.B.S & Airbags! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 11, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

Let's see, let's do an experiment shall we?

here is part of one of my replies

=================================

(^_^) Yes it would, someone suggested a nice simple how-to to fix the mbr (^_^)from the rescue console. That would be nice. However I think your (^_^)mining along the vein of writing to the MBR is probably fruitful. So if (^_^)I could ask a question of the OP, did you have grub write to the MBR (^_^)since you restored your XP? The system booting directly into XP would (^_^)seem to indicate that you didn't. (^_^) (^_^) Carl - What do you think of the idea of having the XP bootloader (^_^)handle booting instead of Grub? There are reasonably simple (^_^)instructions for editing the required files in XP as well as how to get (^_^)file(s) he will need to copy over to his XP root partition. (^_^) (^_^) Mike

=================================

Here's part of another reply using the "normal" way:

==================================

...

On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 06:53:38PM -0900, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Saturday 27 January 2007, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

...

Study shows not every "ordinary users" actually use google to search for a solution when they got a problem. So if people have to search for how to enable mp3, we already know many people has given up. And also study shows even in opensource world, only 1/7 people go ask questions on forum or mailing list. So if a google search doesn't leads to a workable solution, 6/7 people perhaps give up, only 1/7 will post something like me. Well perhaps only a very few percent will have a true hacker's spirit and hack down a solution when questions on forum/lists doesn't get a solution.

=========================

Same amount of area being taken up. Seen way worst ones about. I don't know, maybe it is JUST me, but I'm usualy reading what someone says instead of what's sitting on the left margin! :-D

I'm not trying to flame, but what I think what their point is .. some mail clients, spam filters and MDA's might have issues with the symbols because they mean something. So it might screw up something, so it's better to be plain and unobtrusive when setting the reply separator. :) Just my 0.02 :) - Ben -- "We should forgive our enemies. But not before they are hanged." Heinrich Heine -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 16:34, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

Same amount of area being taken up. Seen way worst ones about. I don't know, maybe it is JUST me, but I'm usualy reading what someone says instead of what's sitting on the left margin! :-D

It's got nothing to do with the amount of area being taken up, it's the extra characters before the text that are distracting and annoying when scanning the mails, they break the quoting scheme of other replies. David -- Windows Sucks! Linux Works! Windows Crashes! Linux Has A.B.S & Airbags! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-02-11 at 08:34 -0800, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

Let's see, let's do an experiment shall we?

here is part of one of my replies

...

Here's part of another reply using the "normal" way:

...

Same amount of area being taken up. Seen way worst ones about. I don't know, maybe it is JUST me, but I'm usualy reading what someone says instead of what's sitting on the left margin! :-D

It's not a question of area. The ">" is standard and understood by mail programs. For instance, some may use one color for new text, another for ">" quoted text, another for ">>" quoted text, etc. We are used to that quoting style, so a different one like yours is distracting. Also, if I get a text like:

quote

...

quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote

I can automatically reflow it with two keystrokes (^J^J):

quote

...

quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote

because the program knows how to handle it. If I try with your text: (^_^) quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote (^_^) quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote I get this garbled thing instead: (^_^) quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote (^_^) quote quote quote quote quote quote quote quote See? :-) What I'm surprised is that it took us so long to tell you ;-) :-P Now, the quoting style I would like to use would be this other one: CRB> quote quote quote but unfortunately it is not handled properly by current mail programs; the second level is changed thus by my Pine:

CRB> quote quote quote

which is incorrect, it should be: CRB>> quote quote quote But that is Fidonet style, not email style, it seems. Or it is Pine which is broken, dunno. The advantage is knowing better who said what. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFz4JZtTMYHG2NR9URAoz1AKCOJdLhQgXDHJEXe+gcrGd0fNFEIwCbB5CR R7UR2Y6+2VXdAP3QPoaArkM= =HFOt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:34:43 -0800 "Charles R. Buchanan" <charles@daphatbell.com> wrote:

Same amount of area being taken up.

It isn't a question of the space taken up, its a question of what your eyes are already trained to ignore. Unexpected gibberish is harder to ignore than expected gibberish (like looking at a xorg.conf file for the first time - it takes weeks for you eyes to be able to focus again - I won't even talk about sendmail config files :-). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-02-11 at 13:23 -0800, Charles R. Buchanan wrote: ...

I could very well sit here and moan and groan about bottom posting. I know I'm outnumbered, but that has never stopped me from giving my two cents, especially if you have a five mile long message, and when you FINALLY get to the bottom of the message, you see the infamous "I agree!" Or some other off the wall comment.

The trick is not to simply bottom post, but also trim - again, fidonet style ;-) Or in other words, invest some time writing, so that others have it easy to read :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFz6JEtTMYHG2NR9URAgE3AJ9Oy4LOi/68BxyZJ/NWUtx97/4LbgCfeK3z Bbj2gkPza/Fo4kiB/hhJFME= =oLsM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 10:07, Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:59:58 +0000, Dylan <dylan@dylan.me.uk> took time to say the following:

<>On Sunday 11 February 2007, Charles R. Buchanan wrote: <>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:19:14 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> <>> took time to say the following: <>> <>> BEW<>Coming to you from 10.1 while I try to salvage some downloads from my <>^^^^^^^^^ <> <>Where, exactly, did you get this quoting scheme from? Are you aware that it <>breaks the quoting scheme making it difficult, not to mention ugly, reading <>threads? <> <>Dylan

Just for you I turned the initial off. Happy Now? I'm telling you, people bitch about the silliest things for some reason! Geez!

There's a big difference between "silly" and just plain ugly and breaking threads. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Charles R. Buchanan wrote:

Well, the first two will probably have the police at your door! <grin>

I live "out in the boonies", as my daughters say. Shooting and blasting are not a problem. Besides the neighbors all know I'm crazy and have guns. *<[:oD -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote:

On Sunday 11 February 2007 09:40, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sunday 11 February 2007 15:11, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

...

As far as I know I only use four apps that require Gnome. Firefox, Thunderbird, Gftp and Gramps. Well, maybe five if you include Sunbird. NOW I can't even update my KDE stuff without getting into LONG strings of Gnome conflicts. /snip/

Firefox does not require Gnome. It runs perfectly well on KDE.

--doug While this is perfectly ok, Firefox imho is a gtk-application.

So you will need at least some basic "gnome-stuff" to run it. Additionally it shows this gnomisch file dialogue (at least when you run the default) to remind you that KDE is not where it was built. ;-)) regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 18:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Could you expand on that? I read the man, but I don't understand it fully:

-l Lazy unmount. Detach the filesystem from the filesystem hierarchy now, and cleanup all references to the filesystem as soon as it is not busy anymore. (Requires kernel 2.4.11 or later.)

For instance, suppose I lazy umount a dvd that is in use. Will I be able to eject it inmediately? Or will it wait till whatever process that has it finishes? Is that it?

The way I read it, you'll have to wait. Basically, no further new accesses will be possible, but existing ones are not forcibly terminated. The best of both worlds, perhaps.

Carlos E. R.

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 18:18, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

I set up the source in question to update the kernel. All other updates have generally been from packman or guru. The rest from the SuSE oss and nonoss sites when packman and guru updates/installs were not available. When doing something I ALWAYS check the source [ version tab ] in Yast2 before I do anything. I try to stay as far as I can from the bleeding edge. If anyone has a better source for the kernel update I would be happy to use it rather than the one I have.

Why are you updating the kernel? But if you really have to, just get that one package, and install it manually. Don't add factory as a source

Time to blow the system and start over I think.

Indeed. And next time, don't add factory as a source. Oh, and did I mention don't add factory as a source -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 18:39, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

On 02/11/2007 Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Indeed. And next time, don't add factory as a source.

Oh, and did I mention don't add factory as a source

Did I forget to mention that is the source for the kernel?

On Sunday 11 February 2007 18:24, Anders Johansson wrote:

Why are you updating the kernel?

But if you really have to, just get that one package, and install it manually. Don't add factory as a source

Did you miss this when you read my mail? You don't need to install every package through a package manager. You can get individual rpms and install them from the command line, using rpm -ivh or rpm -Uvh But above all, *why* are you updating the kernel. It's something you should only do when it's absolutely necessary (I know there are people on this list who would tell you otherwise - please don't listen to them. They are experienced enough to fix things when they go wrong, and when you play with kernels, things often go wrong) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 February 2007 19:08, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

On 02/11/2007 Anders Johansson wrote:

...

But above all, *why* are you updating the kernel. It's something you should only do when it's absolutely necessary (I know there are people on this list who would tell you otherwise - please don't listen to them. They are experienced enough to fix things when they go wrong, and when you play with kernels, things often go wrong)

IMHO, it was necessary. It cured some issues I was having. Some that had no other solution.

I believe there were some others on the list that were having problems that the newer kernel also solved. That is where I got the repo address from, the list, in a post to someone else. After reading the messages I decided to try it myself. AND it worked.

OK, fair enough. Nevertheless, don't do it by adding factory as a source. Just download the kernel rpm individually, and install it manually -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-02-11 at 12:08 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

On 02/11/2007 Anders Johansson wrote:

...

But above all, *why* are you updating the kernel. It's something you should only do when it's absolutely necessary (I know there are people on this list who would tell you otherwise - please don't listen to them. They are experienced enough to fix things when they go wrong, and when you play with kernels, things often go wrong)

IMHO, it was necessary. It cured some issues I was having. Some that had no other solution.

I believe there were some others on the list that were having problems that the newer kernel also solved. That is where I got the repo address from, the list, in a post to someone else. After reading the messages I decided to try it myself. AND it worked.

Nevertheless, that might be the cause of the conflict problems you are getting. I think you should have installed that kernel manually without activating that source. Or use it to install that single package, then remove the factory source. You should check your system to see what other packages come from factory, but I'm unsure now how to detect them. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFz85ctTMYHG2NR9URAqLOAJ4oRmQAIt+e6x7d2RmfPTj49qgABQCfak9p Z7Bj37aaMFvBtsACwl+tTL4= =ZTdT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-02-11 at 20:48 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

On 02/11/2007 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You should check your system to see what other packages come from factory, but I'm unsure now how to detect them.

The question is now moot. I spent all afternoon reinstalling 10.2. Another few hours doing the mandatory updates. Still got the Hal problems [ can't mount the zip drive and floppy ]. Can't win-m-all I suppose.

Solve problems one by one ;-) I would define an entry in the /etc/fstab for the floppy, and use manual mount only. I do that for dvds, haven't tried floppies. I have often noticed that after I mount a device, I can not umount it because the famd daemon is using it; so I simply do "rcfam restart", then umount. A nuisance, certainly. You can check like this: nimrodel: # umount /mnt/ umount: /mnt: device is busy umount: /mnt: device is busy nimrodel: # lsof | grep /mnt mc 32042 root cwd DIR 7,1 31 128 /mnt bash 32044 root cwd DIR 7,1 31 128 /mnt so I know who is the culprit... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF0IoKtTMYHG2NR9URAh7FAKCFnbkWVOkTpSetnqym3umPAEeFlQCggQbr jN7uWwa8TEDtlN9eLET4fQ4= =1Zl8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2007 M Harris wrote:

Suse 10.0, 9.3, 9.2, they all still work just great...

10.2 is the only release that sets up my video and monitor without jumping through flaming hoops. This box is just to new for the lower versions to use straight out of the box. I tried 10.1 but it barfed all over itself on install. Lets put it this way. This computer is Vista ready. Just waiting on the free upgrade to arrive [ not that I'm going to use it ] from eMachine. I think I will put Vista in the closet and forget it for about twenty years. I can see it now on eBay. "Collectors Vista - New in box". Someone will buy it. I just bought a new-in-box DOS 6.22. [ there's actually a very good reason for that purchase ] -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 21:18 -0800, Ben Kevan wrote:

IMO SuSE is a great distro and is only getting more mature with Novell's growing experience in the Open Source market. I myself run SLED 10 and OpenSuSE 10.2 (and previously 9.2, 9.3, 10.0 and even the crippled 10.1). So what were your reasons

I have only one reason: the excruciatingly slow package management system. Overall, OpenSuse is very nice. However, it does not matter how nice it is if one must wait half an hour or an hour every time one does anything with packages. In my opinion, if the package system is unusable, the distro is unusable. Strange, I used Suse from 6.0-9.2 and the package system was great for all those years. Why did the developers decide it had to be changed? Do they not realize how much worse it is than it used to be, and worse than practically every other distro? Bryan -- *************************************** Powered by Fedora Linux 6 Gnome 2.16.0 Evolution 2.8.0 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net *************************************** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 February 2007 20:50, Bryan Tyson wrote:

In my opinion, if the package system is unusable, the distro is unusable. If you think about that for a minute you'll realize how stupid it sounds.

I must admit that my shop is *very* stable, but I haven't put a package on this set of systems for several months... and I beat on them every day. The distro is *very* useable and the package management is weak. Its always better in the long run to be at least realistic when we complain... -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/12/2007 John E. Perry wrote:

Of course, I do wish the repository checking were more efficient. Almost all the time it takes is under "checking for updates" and "checking requirements", even though it has just turned orange because updates were available.

Then when it opens says "No Updates Available" or tells you that there are no installable sources for the updates. Those were the favorite tricks for the last 10.2 install. Only up and running for a little over twenty-four hours it seems to be behaving itself so far this time.

And WHY do I have to remember to check the automatic requirements checking box every time? If anything, it should be the opposite -- default to checking requirements, and unchecking for the odd occasion when it's not appropriate for some special reason.

I concur with this one. Why doesn't it default to checked? Or better yet, why does there need to be a check box to begin with? IMHO, auto check should just be automatic.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 13 February 2007 01:12, riccardo35@gmail.com wrote:

On Tue 13 Feb 2007 02:50, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

In my opinion, if the package system is unusable, the distro is unusable.

___________

- Did one try SMART - is it possible that 'smart' can be the perfect solution?

I would not go so far as to say SMART is "perfect" by any means. It is a software application like any other with features and some bugs. Okay, my C++ hello world app probably doensn't have bugs, but that's a different story. Like all software applications it has its good and its bad. This is an application called....um...nevermind. I use it on my machines and am satisfied. It is far faster than YOU/YAST/ZEN and seems to do what I need. While doing work this morning, I realized my desktop needed to update some apps so I took some screenshots. Like YOU and Zen, it has a system tray telling you when you need to update stuff... http://donutmonster.com/stuff/2007/20070213_smart.jpg ...it then allows you to bring up a GUI or command line interface to do those updates... http://donutmonster.com/stuff/2007/20070213_smart2.jpg ...like YAST, you can tell it not to update certian things. On my laptop, where I do development in Java, I've got it locked at 1.5.0_06. Once in process, It will pull down in a multi-threaded fashion the sources you need including Guru and Packman... http://donutmonster.com/stuff/2007/20070213_smart3.jpg ...that picture has me downloading from both SUSE and Guru. Most importantly, it opens to Amusements/Games. Is it perfect? Hardly. There are issues, like when you try to open up two instances and the command line version seems to have occasional hiccups. However, I have resorted to using it on my 10.1 systems and don't feel the need to change ATM. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2007 Bryan S. Tyson wrote:

I scrapped 10.2 in less than a week. However, no need to switch to Windows. While you wait for suse to straighten out, I can tell you at least the following work great: mepis, kubuntu, mandriva, fedora.

It's been a while but I did try Mandriva/Mandrake before I settled on SuSE. I can't say just exactly why but I didn't like it very much. I tried a live CD of a "special" Ubuntu release and it seemed ok, but it wasn't "Kubuntu". Fedora I've never messed with at all. SimplyMEPIS was what re-ignited my thoughts of using Linux. That was somewhere back about version 3 something. I liked it, but ................ Right now I have about 94% of 6.0* downloaded, but all I could find was a i386 download. Not to sure how that is going to work out. On the web site they talk about an x86-64 version but I didn't see it on a mirror. Only time will tell. PCLinux seems like another fair-to-middlin release. I didn't play with it very long but it seemed to work just fine. There's a local computer store that recommends it for Microsofties, that want something better, to start out with. They preload it on some of their systems. Walk in, walk out with a preloded Linux box. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org