[opensuse] where's novell? (bit of a rant)
Okay, I went online today and ordered three new laptops for work. (One to replace my aging 1-year-old laptop.) I wanted high-end 64-bit desktop replacements. I ordered Dell, knowing that they pre-install Linux on the laptops with no Wintendo tax. I ordered a Dell M6300 64-bit system with 8G RAM and a pretty big hard drive. The intention is to run it with Virtual box and virtualize win2008, xp and openSUSE. My question - why is SLES not an option on these? Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space? -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 21:15 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Okay, I went online today and ordered three new laptops for work. (One to replace my aging 1-year-old laptop.) I wanted high-end 64-bit desktop replacements.
I ordered Dell, knowing that they pre-install Linux on the laptops with no Wintendo tax.
I ordered a Dell M6300 64-bit system with 8G RAM and a pretty big hard drive. The intention is to run it with Virtual box and virtualize win2008, xp and openSUSE.
My question - why is SLES not an option on these? Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
IIRC it would not be SLES but SLED on the lappy's, SLES seems to be the server end of the commercial unit, and SLED the desktop end. ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 22 April 2008 09:20:53 pm Mike McMullin wrote:
My question - why is SLES not an option on these? Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
IIRC it would not be SLES but SLED on the lappy's, SLES seems to be the server end of the commercial unit, and SLED the desktop end. ;)
You recall correctly. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700 Kai Ponte <kai@perfectreign.com> wrote:
Okay, I went online today and ordered three new laptops for work. (One to replace my aging 1-year-old laptop.) I wanted high-end 64-bit desktop replacements.
I ordered Dell, knowing that they pre-install Linux on the laptops with no Wintendo tax.
I ordered a Dell M6300 64-bit system with 8G RAM and a pretty big hard drive. The intention is to run it with Virtual box and virtualize win2008, xp and openSUSE.
My question - why is SLES not an option on these? Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
I can't speak for Dell, but HP has long supported SLED on business laptops along with RHEL. Additionally, HP has supported Linux on most of its servers for a number of years (and if you go back to pre-merger Digital had a direct relationship with Linux back in 1994). -- -- Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id: 537C5846 PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700 Kai Ponte <kai@perfectreign.com> wrote:
Okay, I went online today and ordered three new laptops for work. (One to replace my aging 1-year-old laptop.) I wanted high-end 64-bit desktop replacements.
I ordered Dell, knowing that they pre-install Linux on the laptops with no Wintendo tax.
I ordered a Dell M6300 64-bit system with 8G RAM and a pretty big hard drive. The intention is to run it with Virtual box and virtualize win2008, xp and openSUSE.
My question - why is SLES not an option on these? Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
I can't speak for Dell, but HP has long supported SLED on business laptops along with RHEL. Additionally, HP has supported Linux on most of its servers for a number of years (and if you go back to pre-merger Digital had a direct relationship with Linux back in 1994).
I wonder if the OP meant SLED? I've personally purchased Dell Servers with SLES, so I know its available. It would be unusual to run SLES on a laptop. Not impossible, just sort of odd. I can see why Dell does not offer that combination. http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?s=bsd&c=us&l=en&cs=04&k=linux&cat=all&x=12&y=14 -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away. Fred -- MickySoft Aims to Lasso Everything With Live Mesh. What will get "lassoed" is your private data as hackers, virus and trojan writers have a field day! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 08:47:51 am Fred A. Miller wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
well, i'll answer both of you fine gentlemen... Yes, it is Dell's choice. In fact, that's why I posted the rant here. IMO, Novell needs to step up marketing efforts to promote their distro over - or in addition to - other distros that dell may choose. How to improve it? Fire the marketing people at Novell - ever since NetWare 4.x, they've been on a downhill slide and haven't been able to market worth a darn... j/k Seriously, I saw Novell SLES running on Dell at the MS events. I'd just like to see SLED on lapops soon. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kai Ponte wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 08:47:51 am Fred A. Miller wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space? Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models. Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
well, i'll answer both of you fine gentlemen...
Yes, it is Dell's choice. In fact, that's why I posted the rant here. IMO, Novell needs to step up marketing efforts to promote their distro over - or in addition to - other distros that dell may choose.
How to improve it? Fire the marketing people at Novell - ever since NetWare 4.x, they've been on a downhill slide and haven't been able to market worth a darn... j/k
With that, I'd agree! I'm available!! ;)
Seriously, I saw Novell SLES running on Dell at the MS events. I'd just like to see SLED on lapops soon.
Most of us would! Fred -- MickySoft Aims to Lasso Everything With Live Mesh. What will get "lassoed" is your private data as hackers, virus and trojan writers have a field day! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:15:48 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Fire the marketing people at Novell - ever since NetWare 4.x, they've been on a downhill slide and haven't been able to market worth a darn... j/k
If you think that those who could decide such matters or even those that could have influence on them read this ml, I'd like to have some of the stuff you're smoking. For most manufacturers, Linux on a laptop doesn't seem to generate enough income to justify the effort he has to invest. And I guess even the best marketing folks would have a hard time overcoming such presumptions. Linux preloaded on servers is no problem, Linux on laptops still is and probably will be for the foreseeable future, sad as it is. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 09:33:35 am Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:15:48 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Fire the marketing people at Novell - ever since NetWare 4.x, they've been on a downhill slide and haven't been able to market worth a darn... j/k
If you think that those who could decide such matters or even those that could have influence on them read this ml, I'd like to have some of the stuff you're smoking.
Nope no smoking here. Just in case y'all were wondering - I did actually email both my Novell rep and Novell Customer service..
From: Kai Ponte Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:18 AM To: 'Brian Hervey' Cc: 'crc@novell.com' Subject: Question about Laptop Installations
Brian:
I am purchasing five new high-end laptops for me and my staff. I went to Dell and tentatively selected five 64-bit laptops with 8G RAM and 200G hard drives. However, I was unable to select SLED as an option for the OS. My goal is to run these with SLED and Win2K3 running as a development server and XP/Vista as clients under VMware or XEN or VirtualBox.
I'm curious as to why Novell hasn't been marketing to Dell - one of the larger clone manufacturers - and if there is any option available in the future. I would choose another vendor - such as HP or IBM - but Dell is on our master agreement list for hardware.
Thanks!
-- Kai Ponte, Manager Recorder & Management Systems Los Angeles County Registrar-Recorder/County Clerk tel:562-462-2706 fax:562-462-2075 kponte@rrcc.lacounty.gov
results are everything
For most manufacturers, Linux on a laptop doesn't seem to generate enough income to justify the effort he has to invest. And I guess even the best marketing folks would have a hard time overcoming such presumptions.
Linux preloaded on servers is no problem, Linux on laptops still is and probably will be for the foreseeable future, sad as it is.
I'm just doing what I can... -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:07:58 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Nope no smoking here.
Just in case y'all were wondering - I did actually email both my Novell rep and Novell Customer service..
Had you said so in your mail to this list I wouldn't have implied smoking :) It's just that those that really do decide these things don't read mailing lists like this. And to be honest, I'm quite sure that eight copies of SLED aren't anywhere near a viable business case. Now if we would be talking about 1000 seats, I guess it would be a totally different game. I just don't know how many dell customers would actually order a laptop preloaded with Linux, let alone how many of the high-end dell laptops would be completely supported under SLED (all hardware, laptop specific function keys etc.). Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 12:20:37 pm Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:07:58 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Nope no smoking here.
Just in case y'all were wondering - I did actually email both my Novell rep and Novell Customer service..
Had you said so in your mail to this list I wouldn't have implied smoking :) It's just that those that really do decide these things don't read mailing lists like this.
Sad, huh? They should, if they want to know what is going on. To be honest, I believe Brian does read this on occasion.
And to be honest, I'm quite sure that eight copies of SLED aren't anywhere near a viable business case. Now if we would be talking about 1000 seats, I guess it would be a totally different game.
No - eight copies of SLED isn't going to write anyone a Christmas bonus. However, I have 1500 employees, all who are potential SLED customers. The County for whom I work has 105K employees, and we have a $80M IT budget.
I just don't know how many dell customers would actually order a laptop preloaded with Linux, let alone how many of the high-end dell laptops would be completely supported under SLED (all hardware, laptop specific function keys etc.).
Oh, I know. As I mentioned, my choices were Vista or Red Had. I'd just like to add SLED to the mix. Having gone way OT here, I'll resume my normal on topic rants... -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 21:20 +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote: I just don't know how many dell customers would actually order a laptop
preloaded with Linux, let alone how many of the high-end dell laptops would be completely supported under SLED (all hardware, laptop specific function keys etc.).
Philipp
It's all about marketing... and not just Novell to Dell. Dell never marketed their Ubuntu machines... the last time I saw a link to them on their website it was in gray on the side under "Still looking for Windows XP?". If Dell and Novell would market SLED or openSUSE to the public, then some interest might be raised. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> | Yo.media: 225-590-5961 Swift Change for a Green Future: Kat Swift for President www.VoteSwift.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kai Ponte wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 08:47:51 am Fred A. Miller wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:15:17 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
Isn't Novell trying to get into the high-end space?
<snip>
How to improve it? Fire the marketing people at Novell - ever since NetWare 4.x, they've been on a downhill slide and haven't been able to market worth a darn... j/k
Seconded... Novell great tech, but I cannot really think of the word that is derogatory enough for the their marketing department... (on the other hand M$ marketing dept had a big impact on how seriously brain damaged the 32 bit Windows OS is),.. maybe be IT sales people should be thrown of a cliff to the gods of IT as at matter of principle ... :-) ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIE2XkasN0sSnLmgIRAiFXAKCdOyENMTrNdAxNVl4vZwzoUC3UJQCffxkm ZRbrjIuNVL2MGrRY8G/p22M= =/oHH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us. Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT. Just like people want big disk drives, high resolution video, and fast connectivity. Manufacturers build machines with the stuff people want, because they're competing against other manufacturers who will if they won't. And developers build hardware and software to run on Windows, because it gives them a huge market. People who love riding old single-cylinder British motorbikes realize that most riders prefer something else. Folks who love eating lutefisk realize that most people don't share that enthusiasm. Why can't we simply admit that we love using Linux, and most others prefer something else? That doesn't make us or them any better -- it just makes us different. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 09:25:55 am Jerry Houston wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows.
PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
People don't want it - they don't know there's something different. I tell people I use Linux and I get a "what's that"? response most of the time. Some may have heard of Macintosh, but the mindset is such still that "macs only run education software in kindergarten" is the predominant philosophy. I am all for choices, which is why I started the rant. I want to choose what is available when selecting a laptop from a major clone manufacturer like Dell or HP. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/04/26 09:35 (GMT-0700) Kai Ponte apparently typed:
Some may have heard of Macintosh, but the mindset is such still that "macs only run education software in kindergarten" is the predominant philosophy.
It's hard to miss the memorable Mac commercials in the US. So, I think a lot know about Mac, but most think it's more expensive or otherwise unobtainable or undiscoverable. When was the last time you saw any Mac for sale in a Circuit City, Best Buy, Target, Sears or Wal Mart store? Is there someplace to buy or get serviced a Mac within a reasonable driving distance of most people? The nearest to me is 50 miles away. -- "Either the constitution controls the judges, or the judges rewrite the constitution." Judge Robert Bork Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kai Ponte wrote:
PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
People don't want it - they don't know there's something different.
I respectfully disagree. Think of all the problems reported just in this list alone. Think of all the times we need to log on to a root console and issue arcane commands to debug and fix a show-stopping problem. I'm a software developer with 25+ years experience with computers of all kinds, and there have been many times when only sheer determination to make it work, help from others here, and four books on Linux, have gotten my Linux machines working right. If I weren't different from most folks, there were lots of times I would have simply deleted Linux and reinstalled Windows. When it comes to a commodity OS installed on computers destined for folks who simply want to *use* a computer without significant drama, Windows is often the best solution. They don't need to work nearly so hard at it. I still maintain that Linux enthusiasts are different than most folks. And I'm happy to consider myself one. But I don't need everyone else using the same OS I use in order to support my self-esteem. Just as I don't expect everyone else to commute to work on a 180 hp motorcycle. Some prefer economy cars, and for them, that's probably a better and safer answer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jerry Houston wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Think of all the problems reported just in this list alone. Think of all the times we need to log on to a root console and issue arcane commands to debug and fix a show-stopping problem. I'm a software developer with 25+ years experience with computers of all kinds, and there have been many times when only sheer determination to make it work, help from others here, and four books on Linux, have gotten my Linux machines working right.
With all due respect, I think you're missing a very important point. You see this list, which represents the congealed concentration of the worst aggravations of people using suse, and would assume that using suse linux must present quiet a challenge indeed. But here's an idea: go visit through a windows troubleshooting forum, and take a look at all the infuriatingly recurring themes, the frustration and confusion, the pain people are experiencing just trying to use ms windows. How many reboots and reinstalls are done every day just as a sanity check? At any rate, it might be an eye opener for you. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jerry Houston wrote:
Kai Ponte wrote:
PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
People don't want it - they don't know there's something different.
I respectfully disagree. Think of all the problems reported just in this list alone. Think of all the times we need to log on to a root console and issue arcane commands to debug and fix a show-stopping problem. I'm a software developer with 25+ years experience with computers of all kinds, and there have been many times when only sheer determination to make it work, help from others here, and four books on Linux, have gotten my Linux machines working right.
And what about what's required to fix a Windows system? All too often, the only fix is a reinstall. Then there's all the utility ware, to fix security & performance problems. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows.
PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
Well, now I've to step in and take part in this conversation.. People are USED TO Microsoft Windows, I often hear people swearing cause their PC is causing them troubles(I don't say they wouldn't swear with Linux too ;) ), but I know many people who use Windows cause it's already on it - so 'why bothering me with something else?' 'my laptop is running - why would I want to change everything?'. I also hear people often complain about the microsoft sh** (not my words..), they've weird theories about microsoft spying them etc. (guess that's the stuff they read on heise and gulli, etc. ) - however they're to scared to take the step into another direction, like Linux or Mac (which btw. isn't everyones favourite system either, but it sells too :) ). So I think if people would have the choice, they could get used to the (for the most of us) so important freedome of choice. They can choose yes I want to spend additional 100 bucks on Windows or not. (and I think the MS tax is a great + factor for us - wouldn't you like to save 100 dollar for the same system?) Greetings Michael
Jerry Houston wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT. Just like people want big disk drives,
[snip] I'm not so sure. I think most just assume it will come with 'Bloze. Fred -- MickySoft Aims to Lasso Everything With Live Mesh. What will get "lassoed" is your private data as hackers, virus and trojan writers have a field day! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT. Just like people want big disk drives,
I'm not so sure. I think most just assume it will come with 'Bloze.
Indeed, for the reasons I mentioned, and you snipped. Manufacturers provide Windows because people want it and expect it to be provided. Those of us who differ are quite capable of finding and using an alternative. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jerry Houston wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT. Just like people want big disk drives,
I'm not so sure. I think most just assume it will come with 'Bloze.
Indeed, for the reasons I mentioned, and you snipped. Manufacturers provide Windows because people want it and expect it to be provided. Those of us who differ are quite capable of finding and using an alternative.
Jerry, I've been in this industry for a LONG time, and can assure you.....MOST don't insist on MickySoft - period! Many don't know anything about Linux so wouldn't opt for it. IF they did know, I think they'd opt for it. Once again, MANY don't want MickySoft - they DON'T like it. They just don't know they can have something else MUCH, MUCH better. This, then, become a matter of marketing. Fred -- MickySoft Aims to Lasso Everything With Live Mesh. What will get "lassoed" is your private data as hackers, virus and trojan writers have a field day! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Jerry Houston <jerry@effjayare.net> wrote:
Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT.
People ACCPET it. Vendors put windows on machines because they signed contracts forcing them to do so. They have become convinced that in order to be able to do anything they need the same software as everybody else, even when they are just a home user reading email and surfing the web. This is a defacto LOCK IN. This is NOT a user Choice. It took Microsoft 20 years to build this lock in and it will have to be unbuilt brick by brick. The face-plant that is Vista is the best opportunity to do this in years. The Mac vs PC ads on television show that apple clearly understands this. Novell does not understand that this is the best time to go after Microsoft customers, and because they make no money off of opensuse they really have no incentive to even try. The demise of the commercial Boxed Set as we used to have with SuSE (gmbh) is one of the biggest blunders in history. I, and a lot of people I know always purchased the full boxed set. Now, Novell acts like they don't even want my money, releasing the boxed set Late, Incomplete, and Broken. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Andersen wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Jerry Houston <jerry@effjayare.net> wrote:
Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT.
People ACCPET it.
Vendors put windows on machines because they signed contracts forcing them to do so. They have become convinced that in order to be able to do anything they need the same software as everybody else, even when they are just a home user reading email and surfing the web.
This is a defacto LOCK IN. This is NOT a user Choice. It took Microsoft 20 years to build this lock in and it will have to be unbuilt brick by brick.
The face-plant that is Vista is the best opportunity to do this in years.
The Mac vs PC ads on television show that apple clearly understands this.
Novell does not understand that this is the best time to go after Microsoft customers, and because they make no money off of opensuse they really have no incentive to even try.
The demise of the commercial Boxed Set as we used to have with SuSE (gmbh) is one of the biggest blunders in history. I, and a lot of people I know always purchased the full boxed set. Now, Novell acts like they don't even want my money, releasing the boxed set Late, Incomplete, and Broken.
I must agree with some other, including the press, that U/Kubuntu is going about it RIGHT to get the desktop market. If they continue to work hard at it, they just might be able to put a sizable dent in MickySoft. Further, it has always been an advantage to get the home user.....it DOES lead to corporate sales! I'd much rather see Novell do it, but as must of us agree, their marketing stinks. Fred -- MickySoft Aims to Lasso Everything With Live Mesh. What will get "lassoed" is your private data as hackers, virus and trojan writers have a field day! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 11:00 -0700, John Andersen wrote:
People ACCPET it.
Vendors put windows on machines because they signed contracts forcing them to do so. They have become convinced that in order to be able to do anything they need the same software as everybody else, even when they are just a home user reading email and surfing the web.
This is a defacto LOCK IN. This is NOT a user Choice. It took Microsoft 20 years to build this lock in and it will have to be unbuilt brick by brick.
The face-plant that is Vista is the best opportunity to do this in years.
The Mac vs PC ads on television show that apple clearly understands this.
Novell does not understand that this is the best time to go after Microsoft customers, and because they make no money off of opensuse they really have no incentive to even try.
Amen brother. openSUSE is an amazing operating system that users WOULD use had they know about it. And Novell could certainly position themselves to make money off of it.
The demise of the commercial Boxed Set as we used to have with SuSE (gmbh) is one of the biggest blunders in history. I, and a lot of people I know always purchased the full boxed set. Now, Novell acts like they don't even want my money, releasing the boxed set Late, Incomplete, and Broken.
I've said this so many times, and many have backed me up. Without repeating another long "Boxed Sets" thread (They're out there though), I will say that Novell has cut another incentive to buy the boxed sets: Email from novellcc@novell.com: "Beginning May 1st, 2008, your Novell service requests will need to be registered online at http://support.novell.com rather than calling your local support center. This is a significant change from our traditional model of registering service requests via phone. However, if you have a mission critical system which is completely down, please register your service request by phone with your local Novell Support Center." So now they've even taken away the phone support, one of the most important remaining incentives to buy the boxed editions. I know the arguments that the community is better, and I agree, but most users want a phone number to call and someone at the other end. This cements the real problem with openSUSE as I see it. I hear people from Fedora complaining all the time that the Linux community see them as Red Hat Enterprise's testing ground. I think we face a similar problem: Novell sees us as SLED's testing ground. openSUSE has so much potential to be a great home user/consumer alternative to Windows, in the sense that SLED was for enterprises. But they refuse to do anything about it. They do provide a lot of hardware and other services to openSUSE, as well as keep many core contributors paid and employed, for which we are grateful, but they're ignoring our potential as a serious competitor.
-- ----------JSA--------- -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> | Yo.media: 225-590-5961 Swift Change for a Green Future: Kat Swift for President www.VoteSwift.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 28 April 2008 00:01:42 Kevin Dupuy wrote:
"Beginning May 1st, 2008, your Novell service requests will need to be registered online at http://support.novell.com rather than calling your local support center. This is a significant change from our traditional model of registering service requests via phone. However, if you have a mission critical system which is completely down, please register your service request by phone with your local Novell Support Center."
So now they've even taken away the phone support, one of the most important remaining incentives to buy the boxed editions.
Phone support hasn't been taken away, it's just moving to a callback model (used for ages in Europe) The difference is that with a normal phone support system as used up to now in the US, you get the next guy in line, whether he knows something about your problem area or not. With the callback model, the problem description can be read through and the call can be picked up by someone with experience in the area With linux support that's especially important, because there are - what - around 3000 packages included, and no one can know it all. Supporters need to specialise. So you will still be talking to someone, it just won't be "the next guy available" Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 April 2008 15:42, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 28 April 2008 00:01:42 Kevin Dupuy wrote:
"Beginning May 1st, 2008, your Novell service requests will need to be registered online at http://support.novell.com rather than calling your local support center. ...
So now they've even taken away the phone support, one of the most important remaining incentives to buy the boxed editions.
Phone support hasn't been taken away, it's just moving to a callback model (used for ages in Europe)
The difference is that with a normal phone support system as used up to now in the US, you get the next guy in line, whether he knows something about your problem area or not. ...
With linux support that's especially important, because there are - what - around 3000 packages included, and no one can know it all. ...
So you will still be talking to someone, it just won't be "the next guy available"
This sounds eminently sensible to me. In addition to the advantages you mention, it seems like it would allow a significantly reduced telephone support staff (queuing theory and all). Aside from not getting _someone_ the minute you call (or one of the ten to twenty minutes following the minute you call), there seems to be no down-side to this new procedure.
Anders
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jerry Houston wrote:
That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
I don't think it's that simple. From what I've learned, there is really only a vocal minority who actually want windows. Most people just take the default, and really aren't aware they have any choice in the matter. I know it sounds cliche, but the main reasons that people in this second category are using windows boil down to fear and ignorance. Fear of the unknown, fear of having to learn something new, fear that they won't be able to surf the internet, send mail, watch videos online, even fear of losing their investment in antivirus software, spyware removal tools, popup blockers, etc. Ignorance of the fact that alternatives exist, or that every microsoft press release might have an agenda and not be completely accurate as regards the competition. I was happily using windows, was mildly enthusiastic about the coming of nt, had a large investment in pc-oriented books and software, and was going with the flow. I was aware of unix but considered it out of my reach. When I learned of this thing called linux, which brought the power and flexibility of unix to the same commodity hardware which comonly runs windows, I was all for trying it out with a dual boot. After a few months, I shrunk the microsoft partition down to a fraction of the disk space. A few months after that, I nuked windows completely and have been a happy camper ever since, but for those occasions where microsoft influence makes things awkward for users of alternative OSes. So the moral of this long rant is that we shouldn't assume every windows user is a flaming microsoft fanboy. Some are, and hey, more power to them. whatever floats their boat. But let's put the information and the choices out there in front of them, and we may be surprised how many choose linux, once all the facts are out in the open, and the choices are available. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:23:16 -0700, Joe Sloan wrote:
Ignorance of the fact that alternatives exist, or that every microsoft press release might have an agenda and not be completely accurate as regards the competition.
Folks, I know I contributed to this thread and should have known what would be the outcome. But never-the-less, this is not the opensuse-advocate mailing list so *please* move the discussion to somewhere like opensuse-ot. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jerry Houston wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer (if at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows. PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
Virtually everyone who has a computer with Windows on it could have Linux for free, yet they pay for Windows instead. We howl because manufacturers put Windows on virtually all the PCs they sell, but they do it because PEOPLE WANT IT.
People "want" Windows, because they don't know any better. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:36 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
Jerry Houston wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Even if it were, it's Dell's choice which version of Linux to offer
(if
at all). And even if a manufacturer decides to offer Linux, it's usually only offered on a limited range of models.
Quite right, and I'm not sure how to improve that situation right away.
I'm a Linux fan. SuSE, specifically. I have it on three machines here at home -- a laptop (on which I'm typing this), a workstation, and our domain controller. That said, it amazes me that fellow Linux enthusiasts often miss an important issue when they complain about the predominance of Windows.
PEOPLE WANT IT. Not everybody's just like us.
People "want" Windows, because they don't know any better.
There is truth to that, and fear of the unknown is a powerful form of inertia. I've had customers ask me to rescue their ancient tired windows machines which were overloaded with viruses and drive by installs, that they were unusable. Upon asking what they do with these machines, the answer is invariably email, web surfing, and the occasional letter or paper. Very few even did things like Turbo Tax or Quicken. Those are the most common show stoppers for Linux use by Ma and Pa Public. When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly. I've converted such users to to KDE mostly, because its easier for them to make the transition. And I've done it with opensuse, as well as Kubuntu. All of them are happy campers after the first week. The don't WANT WINDOWS. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. Evolution is but I've found its Exchange connector not to be reliable. Please tell me how I can share my contacts, addressbook & email on both my PC and mobile phone seamlessly? There's Scalix with poor mobile support which requires a Windows server anyways .... the Evolution connector works ok. There's Zimbra but the connector won't compile with the Evolution that openSuSE ships and the mobile support isnt as robust as Outlook/Exchange.
The don't WANT WINDOWS.
I agree... But I want OUTLOOK.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 16:01, Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. ...
Doubtless. Outlook is in a class of its own when it comes to crap. It is the king of crap. It is the depths of the dregs of the Internet. To use Outlook is to spit in the face of every human being who uses the Internet or who aspires to use the Internet. Outlook is the greatest evil any corporate entity has ever perpetrated on the denizens of the Internet. And Exchange is crap, too. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Randall R Schulz <rschulz@sonic.net> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. ...
Doubtless.
Outlook is in a class of its own when it comes to crap. It is the king of crap. It is the depths of the dregs of the Internet. To use Outlook is to spit in the face of every human being who uses the Internet or who aspires to use the Internet. Outlook is the greatest evil any corporate entity has ever perpetrated on the denizens of the Internet.
I assume you say that because of silly things like mailinglist headers, top quoting, HTML/"rich text" mails, etc.
And Exchange is crap, too.
I agree. But I have yet to find a solution where: 1) Multiple users can store their mailbox, calendar & contacts on the server 2) #1 to sync directly to a mobile phone and also to the desktop app. Do you know of one? Like I said before there is Scalix and Zimbra both are great but they still have issues with mobile sync. Also I had to add I hate kmail. You can't even use the arrow keys to navigate your message list. Sorry but even PINE has that feature. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:16:43 pm Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
Also I had to add I hate kmail. You can't even use the arrow keys to navigate your message list. Sorry but even PINE has that feature.
Left/right arrow keys don't work? -- Don -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Don Raboud <dwraboud@telusplanet.net> wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:16:43 pm Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
Also I had to add I hate kmail. You can't even use the arrow keys to navigate your message list. Sorry but even PINE has that feature.
Left/right arrow keys don't work?
Man hates Kmail. Has never read the manual. Film at 11. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:11:13 pm Don Raboud wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:16:43 pm Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
Also I had to add I hate kmail. You can't even use the arrow keys to navigate your message list. Sorry but even PINE has that feature.
Left/right arrow keys don't work?
Hey, cool! Never knew you could do that. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 April 2008 10:29, Kai Ponte wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:11:13 pm Don Raboud wrote:
On Saturday 26 April 2008 05:16:43 pm Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
Also I had to add I hate kmail. You can't even use the arrow keys to navigate your message list. Sorry but even PINE has that feature.
Left/right arrow keys don't work?
Hey, cool!
Never knew you could do that.
Do you know that KMail, like all "full-fleged" (defined as those that fit this definition) KDE applications has user-configurable keyboard shortcuts and toolbars. In KMail's case, not only can its intrinsic commands be associated with buttons in the button-bar, but filters can, too. I have my "Sever Reply Links" filter (the one that removes the In-Reply-To header) associated with a button so when someone hijacks a thread, I just click the button associated with that filter and it the message pops to the top of the mailbox listing. I also have the "Thread Messges" command linked to a button. Sometimes when I'm breezing through posts to a high-volume list I'll find that something doesn't register as interesting in my mind until I've moved on, and now the message is no longer highlighted as new or unread. I can turn off threading and it will be near the bottom (which isn't necessarily true when messages are sorted into their threads, of course). Likewise for the HTML interpretation option and two of the three header display options.
-- kai
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Andreas van dem Helge <joakimsen@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Randall R Schulz <rschulz@sonic.net> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. ...
Doubtless.
Outlook is in a class of its own when it comes to crap. It is the king of crap. It is the depths of the dregs of the Internet. To use Outlook is to spit in the face of every human being who uses the Internet or who aspires to use the Internet. Outlook is the greatest evil any corporate entity has ever perpetrated on the denizens of the Internet.
I assume you say that because of silly things like mailinglist headers, top quoting, HTML/"rich text" mails, etc.
The mail it sends is the _least_ of its faults. The problem with Outlook is that for many office workers its the ONLY application they know, and they use it for absolutely everything. Storing files, Documents, Mail, Spreadsheets, projects, everything. They can't even launch Word, or Excell unless they start from outlook. They are lost without it. Only to be rudely awakened when they run up against its limitations (which are not at all hard to exceed), and it barfs its index and they are hozed. Since their entire world was in there, often stored on their local hard drive, with no backup it takes a major effort to salvage anything. Its another one of Microsoft's lock-in products and it appears that at least a few posters here have drunk the coolaid. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 10:59 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
The mail it sends is the _least_ of its faults.
The problem with Outlook is that for many office workers its the ONLY application they know, and they use it for absolutely everything. Storing files, Documents, Mail, Spreadsheets, projects, everything. They can't even launch Word, or Excell unless they start from outlook. They are lost without it.
So blame the application for the idiot users. Any diffrence between that same user using Outlook vs Evolution? Or even Kmail? All their stuff arrive in email and they don't know how to launch openoffice... just click the attachment.
Only to be rudely awakened when they run up against its limitations (which are not at all hard to exceed), and it barfs its index and they are hozed. Since their entire world was in there, often stored on their local hard drive, with no backup it takes a major effort to salvage anything.
You mean the 2gb limit that was expanded years ago? Who's fault is it that they don't have a backup? And I never got the memo that its impossible for files to become corrupt in openSuSE....
Its another one of Microsoft's lock-in products and it appears that at least a few posters here have drunk the coolaid.
Like I said before I don't think there's a linux-based enterprise solution that's fully equivalent to exchange/outlook. I've been searching hard. Do you know of one? This includes support for the client on a Linux desktop.... well I never tried Groupwise maybe its evolution connector works? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 April 2008 11:09:56 am Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
Its another one of Microsoft's lock-in products and it appears that at least a few posters here have drunk the coolaid.
Like I said before I don't think there's a linux-based enterprise solution that's fully equivalent to exchange/outlook. I've been searching hard. Do you know of one? This includes support for the client on a Linux desktop.... well I never tried Groupwise maybe its evolution connector works?
I don't know about an Exchange connector, but I know our retirement board - with about 200 employees - is using GroupWise and SLED/openSUSE (hah! back on topic y'all!) clients. That's a small group (out of 100,000 employees) but at least they took the plunge and are happy. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Andersen wrote:
The mail it sends is the _least_ of its faults.
The problem with Outlook is that for many office workers its the ONLY application they know, and they use it for absolutely everything. Storing files, Documents, Mail, Spreadsheets, projects, everything. They can't even launch Word, or Excell unless they start from outlook. They are lost without it.
Huh? Doesn't sound like the Outlook I've used for many years. Doesn't sound like any of the office workers I've worked with for years, either. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. Evolution is but I've found its Exchange connector not to be reliable. Please tell me how I can share my contacts, addressbook & email on both my PC and mobile phone seamlessly? There's Scalix with poor mobile support which requires a Windows server anyways .... the Evolution connector works ok. There's Zimbra but the connector won't compile with the Evolution that openSuSE ships and the mobile support isnt as robust as Outlook/Exchange.
Hmmm... T-Bird with appropriate plugins is way better than KMail in some respects and by far a better tool than Outlook... Evolution is a little hampered by some issues with extensibility, but is also a very powerful tool, but until it becomes as extensible as T-Bird and the Mozilla family will be less attractive ... For server end Synchronisation there is also Funambol/Sync4j which does both push e-Mail to the Blackberry, calendar and contact synchronisation, the Evolution Funambol plugin does work but as yet no-one has written a nice GUI for it. There are issues with the Mozilla Funambol client with the OpenSuSE version of Thunderbird which I intend to look into in more depth sometime soon. (Oh yes there is an Outlook Client as well, but lets not go there). There is also e-Groupware which has its own internal sync server and openPSA which uses a client plugin for Funambol (the latter requires Midgard which I have yet to get working on SuSE). Mobile device synchronisation with Symbian based phones has historically been an issue on Windows, and very weak with Linux. Someone will probably mention openSync at this point but having had a look at the rather scanty information on this project I get the impression this is an attempt to bend the OMA specification to a client to client communication situation on a local cable whereas the OMA specification is built around a client/server architecture over TCP/IP. The approach seems to be a little limited in intended scope. Curiously Windows Mobile is not as good at synchronising as one would expect, about the only major player in the Smart Phone world that has competent synchronisation functionality in both Windows and Linux worlds are those based on Palm OS. Data synchronisation is not easy....
The don't WANT WINDOWS.
I agree... But I want OUTLOOK....
- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIFEekasN0sSnLmgIRAlidAKDsZKx94G+QfGwoi/rjDy5Y6g+5xgCg8bgS CoZ8YB6BtnkcY3j/rTy+INM= =JnH5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
G T Smith wrote:
Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
Hmmm... T-Bird with appropriate plugins is way better than KMail in some respects and by far a better tool than Outlook...<snip>
For server end Synchronisation there is also Funambol/Sync4j <snip>
There is also e-Groupware <snip>
The don't WANT WINDOWS. I agree... But I want OUTLOOK....
Grant has given you the solution...and...the solution is eGroupWare (egw) (1.4.004 is the current stable branch). It is THE open source groupware solution. It has served as the back-end for my law office for several years now in a mixed linux/windows environment without a single instance of data loss. It is far more robust than outlook from a number of perspectives. Project management, knowledge base, wiki, accounting, ACL permissions, e-template customization of existing or production of new page functionality, scheduled data backup, ease of data migration on server change, just to name a few. To get all default applications of the stable branch (using 1.2, 1.4, etc instead of branch in the examples below), just do the following in your docroot: cd /srv/www/htdocs (or whatever your docroot is), then (on one line) "svn checkout http://svn.egroupware.org/egroupware/branches/1.4/aliases/default ." (**NOTE the . at the end of the line. That isn't a typo) egw required php (mbstring and pear), apache, and mysql. Following svn checkout, simply point your browser to http://yourserver.com/egroupware/setup and follow the installation routine. (~ 10 minute setup). The installer will set up your mysql database for you and tell you if you are missing any of the requirements. If you run into trouble, the documentation is at www.egroupware.org, or, just post here, I'll be glad to help. At first, the interface may seem a bit different than outlook. There is a reason for that. After you have made friends with egw, you appreciate the efficiency those differences make. You will then have internet wide, secure access to your data from anywhere. You can use virtually any front-end that supports XML-RPC, syncml, etc. I like the egw web interface itself, but I also use Thunderbird and the lightning plugin to integrate the calendar with Thunderbird utilizing XML-RPC. There are a number of ways to skin this cat based on your personal preference. Something else outlook doesn't offer. The biggest seller for me was/is that support is excellent through the egroupware-users@lists.sourceforge.net mailing list and the egw bug-tracker/feature request system. Ralf Becker and the rest of the egw project team can usually solve bugs in a few days (sometimes in a few hours). Got that with outlook? The sync abilities of egw are on par with outlook and improving daily. I can sync my data with my cell phone, windows clients, etc. If you want to kiss outlook good-bye, then from a thorough comparison standpoint, egw is what you want and is the most robust os groupware package going. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
Hmmm... T-Bird with appropriate plugins is way better than KMail in some respects and by far a better tool than Outlook...<snip>
For server end Synchronisation there is also Funambol/Sync4j <snip>
There is also e-Groupware <snip>
<snip>
Grant has given you the solution...and...the solution is eGroupWare (egw) (1.4.004 is the current stable branch). It is THE open source groupware solution. It has served as the back-end for my law office for several years now in a mixed linux/windows environment without a single instance of data loss. It is far more robust than outlook from a number of perspectives. Project management, knowledge base, wiki, accounting, ACL permissions, e-template customization of existing or production of new page functionality, scheduled data backup, ease of data migration on server change, just to name a few.
?Grant? <snip some useful stuff> eqw overall is very good and I do think it is a good option for SMB enterprises and individuals, the calendar, email, time management and task modules are quite good.. but there are some things I have noted from my experience of using egw on a kind of extended trial... a) Performance. I found fairly early on there was an issue with PHP timeouts. I one needed to change the timeout to ensure that it did not just hang at some moments because the script had timed out. Performance does seem to sluggish on occasion but I suspect that this may be because PHP is being use to perform activities that it is not well tuned to do. (PHP from the benchmarks I have seen seems to be very good at form definition and basic MySQL integration but is not a performer in more complex areas). b) Sync with mobile devices seems to be in its early stages, and works well at some things. However, this is something I believe Funambol does better. Funambol provides a good client to server architecture that allows for device mapping according to the OMA spec at the server end of the sync process. The synchronisation of objects is well defined within the OMA spec, the actual schema of objects are not (beyond some mandatory fields). Funambol has a connection definition specification that allows for the server to optimised for particular devices. A Funambol client for egw might be worth exploring. Data synchronisation is technically a very complex issue, if the sync requirement are basic egw is adequate, but for more demanding requirements integration with more specialist tools is probably best. c) The project manager in the stable distribution does not do CPA (or constraint checking). I would be pleasantly surprised if it did PERT, but the lack of CPA is an issue. Unfortunately, it only imports and exports a fairly basic CSV that most standalone Project software cannot use, so one faces an uphill task in integrating the results of such software with eqw. On a small project manually adjusting dates is no biggie, on a more complex exercise this is a PITA. Having said this the integration with the calendar is very promising and the basic project building interaction is some ways a lot easier than some tools I have come across. (Which is why the lack of functional CPA is unfortunate). d) Minor niggles, there seems to be no provision for printer friendly reports, everything is web based. A template for providing a query for mailmerge for open office might also be useful. Time reporting to 4 decimal places is bit of an irritation, (hours and minutes would be nice). Overall I would suggest that egw is good framework for a starting point to build a tool for an organisation or individuals Management Information Management (no that is not a typo :-) ) needs. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIFbBrasN0sSnLmgIRAj+CAKDam+QfM+EUylsuMFnfAT/3ZWOuBwCfXxzN 6ULfB5FbkCbdGD7GQWj7cak= =rD7c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
G T Smith wrote:
David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
?Grant?
Sorry G T, I thought I recalled seeing Grant in your email address ... infant Alzheimer's must be taking hold... Regarding the egw timeouts and php, I haven't experienced the timeouts myself, but I have seen the issue discussed. The good news though is that egw is looking into developing more 'client-side' rendering/caching that would reduce the page generation time. On my installs, I generally see page generation times of less than 2 seconds and often under 1 second. Rarely do I see page generation times of 3.x seconds. At times when my internet connection near saturation, I do see some delays when remotely connected to egw, but I can't blame egw for that. All, in all, I don't think you could ever find a finer os groupware package. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:19 PM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
?Grant?
Sorry G T, I thought I recalled seeing Grant in your email address ... infant Alzheimer's must be taking hold...
Hey, I called him Greg a couple weeks ago. Welcome to the club. Anyone who goes by initials must be use to it by now. -- ----------JSA--------- John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Andersen wrote:
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:19 PM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
?Grant?
Sorry G T, I thought I recalled seeing Grant in your email address ... infant Alzheimer's must be taking hold...
Hey, I called him Greg a couple weeks ago. Welcome to the club.
Anyone who goes by initials must be use to it by now.
hehe... well us Smiths are a rather common lot (an English aside which will probably whiz past most of the world)... At the institution I used to work there four of with G as a first initial one of which was a G.T. with the same first name :-) Our memos and post did tend to get mixed up.... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIGC0GasN0sSnLmgIRAk3YAJwN9epmpfDPPiJo4HDscYbgqXksDACdHXy6 kVgKyTmOblE58YAzMnER9tM= =fYJo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
David C. Rankin wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
?Grant?
Sorry G T, I thought I recalled seeing Grant in your email address ... infant Alzheimer's must be taking hold...
No problem.. :-)
Regarding the egw timeouts and php, I haven't experienced the timeouts myself, but I have seen the issue discussed. The good news though is that egw is looking into developing more 'client-side' rendering/caching that would reduce the page generation time. On my installs, I generally see page generation times of less than 2 seconds and often under 1 second. Rarely do I see page generation times of 3.x seconds. At times when my internet connection near saturation, I do see some delays when remotely connected to egw, but I can't blame egw for that.
I noticed this when I tried to find why it occasionally hung at a particular points, and noted the logs had rather lot of PHP timeouts which were associated with the hangs, setting this value to higher one sorted the hanging. As a single user on admittedly a machine with rather a lot going on this was a mild concern. (Especially as the other Major PHP application Drupal did not report this as issue). I know a local organisation using egw has a similar issue. I will keep on eye on this development...
All, in all, I don't think you could ever find a finer os groupware package.
Pity about the project planner however, I am about to start putting together the outlines of a particular project but I will probably need to use something else for this. (I toyed with the idea of writing a script to tweak the database but the schema is not completely obvious and it is bit of a diversion from what I should be doing :-) ). - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIGC0BasN0sSnLmgIRAhEqAJ0TZlgWEaf1EU/9GJ4LIy0YUDvKNwCfbhit DTHLhrDxm5mYvKPVKIMWgmA= =19he -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 April 2008 04:01:46 pm Andreas van dem Helge wrote:
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
When I show them that wine will run those two packages (without belaboring the details) and absolve them of their Outlook sins, bless them with Kmail (spam filtered of course) they become converts rather quickly.
I've tried to use Evolution with the Exchange connector. I was less than impressed. Maybe it was several years of pent up excitement waiting for it to be available to me (I've always been on an Exchange 5.5 network until a few months back.) I dunno -sort of like when I saw The Phantom Menace.
The only problem is Kmail is just not the same class application as Outlook. Evolution is but I've found its Exchange connector not to be reliable. Please tell me how I can share my contacts, addressbook & email on both my PC and mobile phone seamlessly? There's Scalix with poor mobile support which requires a Windows server anyways .... the Evolution connector works ok. There's Zimbra but the connector won't compile with the Evolution that openSuSE ships and the mobile support isnt as robust as Outlook/Exchange.
The don't WANT WINDOWS.
I agree... But I want OUTLOOK....
I use outlook also. It is one of the only three MS products I like (the others being Visio and Project). I know one can argue about html email by default (mine is set to rich text) and top posting (which isn't bad in an email, IMO), but it does many things very well - send/recive emails, organize tasks, allows me to set reminders simply by dragging an email on to the calendar, auto-booking of resources (like meeting rooms), notification of events... You can use it on openSUSE under either Crossover Office / Wine - though I haven't yet tried the 2007 version. http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/outlook_save.jpg You can - of course load a VM and run it native there too. Other options include remote desktop into a 2k/xp/vista machine or using OWA. I'm not a big fan of OWA so tend to stay away from it. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (18)
-
Anders Johansson -
Andreas van dem Helge -
David C. Rankin -
Don Raboud -
Felix Miata -
Fred A. Miller -
G T Smith -
James Knott -
Jerry Feldman -
Jerry Houston -
Joe Sloan -
John Andersen -
Kai Ponte -
Kevin Dupuy -
M. Skiba -
Mike McMullin -
Philipp Thomas -
Randall R Schulz