Re: [SLE] An ending to a fruitless discussion. [was] Re: [SLE] installing suse 7.3
Ok. Sorry. Didn't mean to belittle anything. I guess we should just forget what IBM and others have done. I guess we should go back to 1997 and just be this little vocal fringe of usage that we were and it should all just be very hippie like. I guess the ban in my dept at work should go back into effect. I guess ISV's and other software makers should go back to being scared because there was no backing of Linux. I guess we shouldn't make the strides in the kernel, KDE and other such things that having paid coders like SuSE, RH, Mandrake and IBM provide. I guess we should go back to snails pace development. I guess I'm just off my rocker..and shouldn't want us to beat Microsoft and Sun into the ground. This is the last I will say on this subject. The world has changed. I want the best for Linux and I hope..hope that the "I want a free ride crowd" goes away. My train ride shall be on the "fair price for a good product" train. I got off the "overpriced ..we're going to bend you over" train a long time ago when I stopped using Microsoft software. I am not opposed to paying for a product and I think the biggest wrong idea that has ever been put forth is that Linux is free as in beer and if it's not it will not succeed. Freedom of speech is 10X different then free beer. This is not directed at Haralambos..but is just mainly a general thought. They original email which prompted the writings below was not ment to be directed his way..I should have taken better care as to make that clear. I attack no one...I attack misconceptions and wrong ideas. I am all for freedom of speech, but as I will tell anyone..there is no free lunch ..only free STD's ;) * Haralambos Geortgilakis (haralambos@ihug.co.nz) [020217 16:23]: -> ->Hi All & Ben, -> ->who typed a great deal! :-) -> ->For a fruitless discussion-it has borne a lot of fruit..... Yes? -> ->Now Ben.... I take it that the money investors pour into Tux, be they ->corporations or individuals, is still money? -> ->So the distinction you make between Mandrake & Redhat vs SuSE, is ->irrelevant. -> ->What all three of these Distro's must do, is make a good return on the ->investment or else it is "what is next, time?" -> ->I did not bring up the Oakland Office-you did.... Do I know what happens ->behind closed doors? Only if I have someone on the other side. No ->comment. -> ->I am not claiming, that SuSE will automatically succeed, if they issue ->non-crippled iso'z. I am aware of the cases of Corel, etc. RIP. -> ->I am claiming they will *probably* increase their market share, a weaker ->claim. -> ->I am aware of SuSE'z high profile stuff. It is high profile.... -> -><snip> -> ->I'm not sure what this means?! -> -><snip> -> ->Re-read what I typed, it is rather clear. -> -><snip> -> ->For Linux to stay in developement..true inventive ->development it needs Corporations to back it -> -><snip> -> ->*WTF* -> ->That thesis is plainly false. "Big business" hopped on the tails of Tux ->in the latter 1990's, after much development had occured. Also, you just ->insulted & belittled many, many coders out their (who made Tux what it ->was B4 "Big Business came on the scene), by that very odd claim. -> ->Bad Ben! -> ->Aspects of "Big business" in the USA (& globally), are patently ->dysfunctional. Enron? Global warming? Global Poverty? The belief that ->big business knows best & is not responsible for the aforesaid effects, ->is literally toxic to all life on earth. -> ->As Rage Against the Machine sing, "wake up!" -> -><snip> -> ->Reality is how people percieve it to be -> -><snip> -> ->This thesis is plainly false. Counter example: The world is not flat, ->but sort of round, (not because of my or your perception); but because ->of the physical state of affairs that exisited before I or you were born ->& I hope for many eaons after we have gone. Indeed, it was the case B4 ->our species even evolved. -> ->You can have a fantasy that the world is flat, but it is in fact ->round-ish. -> ->The universe exists independent of our perception of it. We need to pay ->attention to our perception of it or else we get into all sorts of ->bother-like global warming or hurting your toe-when we bump into the ->hard facts.... -> -><snip> -> ->If one doesn't have all the facts reality can look an aweful lot ->like the hope that Steve Ballmer will ever have real hair again. -> -><snip> -> ->A hair transplant? Ask Elton John.... -> ->If I could afford one, I wouldn't. I'd rather give the $$$$ to ->Greenpeace or one of many (to many) other good causes. -> ->Now, I had better be off towards some gainful employment myself. -> ->*BFN* -> ->Greek Geek :-) -> -> ->The Society for the Protection of Tux ISO's--GG -> -> -> -> -> ->Ben Rosenberg wrote: -> ->>* Haralambos Geortgilakis (haralambos@ihug.co.nz) [020217 13:31]: ->> ->>->The Distro's of Tux making the most $$$$ are the same distros that ->>issue ->non-crippled iso'z! ->> ->>Untrue. Mandrake and Redhat have coffers of money that have been ->>supplied by going public and raising capitol by issuing stock. ->> ->>SuSE is still private so they raise capitol by getting investors such as ->>IBM, Intel and Compaq to name a few. Sun will most likely invest in them ->>as well because SuSE has the most complete Ultrasparc and Sparc ->>distribution out there today. ->> ->>Never confuse private investments with going broke or not succeeding. ->>And PLEASE do not bring up the Oakland office as an example of them ->>failing. No one that didn't work for SuSE really knows what that deal ->>was about. I *do* and I can say that the failure with the Oakland office ->>had *NOTHING* to do with whether or not they issued .iso's. ->> ->>I believe Corel distributed fully functional iso's as did Progeny and ->>Stormix and many other truely failed distributions. ->> ->>In case you didn't know it SuSE works on very, very high profile deals ->>with IBM such as the install of an S/390 mainframe at the NASQ and ->>Telia.net. They are doing quite well. Just because they have a new CEO ->>and CTO doesn't mean they are failing. You really don't know what ->>happened in these cases..nor does the public media. ->> ->>->Now, would all the puritans pay attention to this fact & one Logical ->>->consequence from it? ->> ->>I'm not sure what this means?! The puritan Linux geeks think everything ->>should be free or at such a low cost as to drive everything back to a ->>hippie commune type way of doing things. Let me tell anyone who cares to ->>listen. Big Business *doesn't* respond well to this type of thing. It's ->>only since Linux has gone sort of corp. that they are buying into it. ->>Corp's pay tons of money for useless crap which they think will give ->>peace of mind. For Linux to stay in developement..true inventive ->>development it needs Corporations to back it and Goverenments as well. ->>Do you really think that a Peace, Love and Linux really sways ->>Governments..hell no. It's just a cut marketing ploy. They want speed, ->>security and peace of mind that they are not wasting their time and also ->>that they are not leaving themselves open to attack by using crapware. ->>Why do you think the U.S. Government has been moving away from Microsoft ->>accept for the desktop over the last few years. ->> ->>->SuSE is pursuing a business strategy that is failing them = ->>*reality ->cheque* ->> ->>Reality is how people percieve it to be..and it's not always the way it ->>seems. If one doesn't have all the facts reality can look an aweful lot ->>like the hope that Steve Ballmer will ever have real hair again. *grin* ->> ->>Cheers! ->> ->>-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====----- ->>Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ->>-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====----- ->>"I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around the more I ->>think it might not be a bad thing." -JC ->> -> -> -> -----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====----- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org -----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====----- "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around the more I think it might not be a bad thing." -JC
Thanks Ben, I really like the open source movement. But, there is a limit of ranting as opposed to the put up or shut up which needs to take place. But, I really enjoyed the fact that I had to reboot my Windows 2000 box two (2) times today because of programs causing memory problems (memory was not reclaimed by the OS) while my linux box continued to run with no problems. Ah well, maybe people will learn from experience. I certainly did. Jim <snip>
I have to agree with you, ben. One of the things I remember hearing so much about when I first started using linux and GPL software was the fact that nothing in the GPL requires the free beer aspect that everyone wants now days. I've always understood, that the requirement was that if someone *bought* the software you had to supply them with the source whether it be w/ the binaries or on a website, but there had to be access to the GPL'ed code, somehow all of this seems to have gotten twisted from the free speech access to software requirement to a free beer access. Personally, I think it's great that suse doesn't put the iso's online, i won't use them if they did, I much prefer the dvd. I like the fact the I can sit down go through the install process selecting the packages i want, start the installion and walk away for about 45 minutes and not have to sit there and swap cds. I think the funny thing in all of this is that even debian discourages the iso's now, and wants you to buy the set of CD's or use the netinst program. Wow, crazy stuff here!! Imagine another distro not wanting all of their bandwidth chewed up with people dl'ing iso's which is a waste because a lot of the stuff on the iso won't get installed. Anyways, if someone isn't willing to buy 7.3 pro box because they feel it's too much of a risk they can have mine for the price of shipping, but I am keeping the dvd but that's it. All the manuals and the CD's are there, stickers and boot disks too. Hell, if anyone wants the 7.1 pro set they can have that too, dvd included. Just contact me off the list. Rick On Sunday 17 February 2002 10:04 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Ok. Sorry. Didn't mean to belittle anything. I guess we should just forget what IBM and others have done. I guess we should go back to 1997 and just be this little vocal fringe of usage that we were and it should all just be very hippie like. I guess the ban in my dept at work should go back into effect. I guess ISV's and other software makers should go back to being scared because there was no backing of Linux. I guess we shouldn't make the strides in the kernel, KDE and other such things that having paid coders like SuSE, RH, Mandrake and IBM provide. I guess we should go back to snails pace development. I guess I'm just off my rocker..and shouldn't want us to beat Microsoft and Sun into the ground.
This is the last I will say on this subject. The world has changed.
I want the best for Linux and I hope..hope that the "I want a free ride crowd" goes away. My train ride shall be on the "fair price for a good product" train. I got off the "overpriced ..we're going to bend you over" train a long time ago when I stopped using Microsoft software. I am not opposed to paying for a product and I think the biggest wrong idea that has ever been put forth is that Linux is free as in beer and if it's not it will not succeed. Freedom of speech is 10X different then free beer.
This is not directed at Haralambos..but is just mainly a general thought. They original email which prompted the writings below was not ment to be directed his way..I should have taken better care as to make that clear. I attack no one...I attack misconceptions and wrong ideas.
I am all for freedom of speech, but as I will tell anyone..there is no free lunch ..only free STD's ;)
_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
participants (3)
-
Ben Rosenberg
-
James Bliss
-
Rick Barnes