[opensuse] chromium or chrome?
Hi, all -- I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each? I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) TIA & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> [04-16-18 18:10]:
Hi, all --
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each?
I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-)
vivaldi appears to use the least system resources. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick, et al -- ...and then Patrick Shanahan said... % % * David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> [04-16-18 18:10]: % > ... % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % vivaldi appears to use the least system resources. THAT'S WHAT I MEAN!!! :-) OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-) Thanks & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> [04-16-18 18:24]:
Patrick, et al --
...and then Patrick Shanahan said... % % * David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> [04-16-18 18:10]: % > ... % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % vivaldi appears to use the least system resources.
THAT'S WHAT I MEAN!!!
:-)
OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-)
I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo [vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0 adjust as you desire, re: autorefresh -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/16/2018 05:28 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-) I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo
[vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0
adjust as you desire, re: autorefresh
Nice browser, just pray you don't use self-signed certificates for any of your sites.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, April 16, 2018 6:28:35 PM EDT Patrick Shanahan wrote:
I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo
[vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0
I get NOKEY errors trying to install both the stable and snapshot rpm versions downloaded from the vivaldi website or using YaST with the repo added. Found a key via google, imported it; that broke the installation. Had to add "gpgcheck=0" to the zypp repo file, then installed fine. --dg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dennis Gallien wrote:
On Monday, April 16, 2018 6:28:35 PM EDT Patrick Shanahan wrote:
I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo
[vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0
I get NOKEY errors trying to install both the stable and snapshot rpm versions downloaded from the vivaldi website or using YaST with the repo added. Found a key via google, imported it; that broke the installation. Had to add "gpgcheck=0" to the zypp repo file, then installed fine.
Hmm, likely you got the wrong one. I don't have issues with it, most likely I installed with -G the first time (but that is already 1 1/2 years ago, so I don't remember for sure) The key is actually part of the post-installation script (rpm -q --scripts vivaldi-snapshot): (But rather extract it yourself from the downloaded package, or just install the first time using -G) ------------------------- install_rpm_key() { # Check to see if the key already exists. rpm -q gpg-pubkey-c3401e12 >/dev/null 2>&1 if [ "$?" -eq "0" ]; then # Keys already exist return 0 fi # RPM on Mandriva 2009 is dumb and does not understand "rpm --import -" TMPKEY=$(mktemp /tmp/vivaldi.sig.XXXXXX) if [ -n "$TMPKEY" ]; then cat > "$TMPKEY" <<KEYDATA -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1 mQINBFh9700BEACfjuPRKbTaFB1y2yPlCMYfA9sw+Mu19g2AEpO4kXsqZPA1mfU0 nGpZEBanbKbWaZNknr+4Gp0KrkSKL4ZywFeCMhEUXDsMU9dBCInVrhP9jzVJV4oP TfNY1fgcwiWNaOJFRt4rot9NNiEOWRRguCPki2285biGfl6bS5a5UqFyA8XQn0dv EyyuFQ1mSDJqSw7yYpHFuLsp1hUO1WtmezE6Cqkh1m50eXJmuB5jG8wM1NkGk8lk t2DgC/bMDwNIijJBsvBTuh9mdqH/u4TF3mysomMDy+vU8m9Uq5eSEoMKh9Bttai2 brxPFfxw2u6OTSYbKdw0KmXCe4pNcyrK6jPKUTLaplhhn8vRnzVilQVeTIJPHM1O 8bsio1LDTQl3K7AQtpqnu2N2nKRLtnTyOyDtfVC+PBS7Jvj4yDoImzqaiOaMcFKO DpeO8NudVBUunmgPWwUw4lv4rZyY5+6Rq9fHQGoh+dVnTjSyXVjBppD438RpPCRx MUlUddmpZmPsCYqdjnAV1J3kYlSyYOBu7PtssK9TwkzLP3xaMQFJrSRQw48Bc/Q/ CgaXAYER5pVfQg78thj4gDT3yi1u5ozTmw1hkvaTu9RAJmo4svgWoCClfKJusfo3 AwCxrgPcFqRWoyahUkpNNS/yKlbDtB6LLmFoO9SJuQ7CmKOXtP8AkGemywARAQAB tDVWaXZhbGRpIFBhY2thZ2UgQ29tcG9zZXIgS0VZMDMgPHBhY2thZ2VyQHZpdmFs ZGkuY29tPokCPgQTAQIAKAUCWH3vTQIbAwUJA8JnAAYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYC AwECHgECF4AACgkQbTeJ7cNAHhK6vQ//YFN3EmodDZL4mPZ5I2gyadFHqKKf79yV XiAPC2LOLBKMHGzxMlHDN6MVgCnkPSiGGiS1aJzozucNmg06g0H0DQA4WEg2iBPZ SnaCt72ONsPyDrrA7FJimHXCS7wrU4XD1shnnVi+ToV6mYWGiCwiwA6EpJlEYqRs ZDJuXAfJYPI85nAvhnysdCGFSEXYICxXhlRZvS234FkV81AmMukelJyZ8O44Ayvm ypYIYESBDGrj7wnJJvOE6+IIg7Hl/7XIa60MsN2t7Uo4b4En0yW0NRwwZ4uNUN8L tTxcjx20/IdoAEQrNe+UCieaWpUKDQHBOxerBT/PLAnPlpESqMYoAZ07V6VdjD5I LoD/iB3jYV4wT9nfWQqMcoyi2gm8HO3w7Nubq9OO3ao9Kd4n1B3S/uKkOZGOE5u9 VdzvX+c4aBwU5A4nxpMTpE24WWfkHdgj6C/E7eZAfr41pAi9zStecLscqGB5shmX 5odBk1qAHzvjPk+/zmlh3hEXTaCk5Qi0me8BHiLJC5SMr0XgkQTBC4aSa2Jsbthq xcX4oAdb4wbXEiDSatiZjA/hge87OCNsHP6E/5mctran9JsX4kFY/bL/gdsgQ7Zg AOa0rSKXeI7vboaveZzst53mN1+8yItV2UQpB5f51/QGLcGy8LnkZgp8UJ4kjpmd m2DRBz/IWeC5Ag0EWH3vTQEQAOXfpNZh2Rq5frcawVacN1e4ahorOspOQ6xZZQdl iq8EM6YDwZMVSv3ssPMMvcas6ROmCyT+8eeVuiLtlUEAPfgH7Ro8S3tXltS5Zxtp 4z+yBaKVQw1IrmKTANMsRO+7gu5IHpvUgGhDWi3J4OriIJw2o/Lznf3pBOmnO1pk Qgx1bDCDzcauqtQoWrmPikgq010gNU2wdDWTJkgn5BeYrn8gp3tyY5qSFL6Dth2U KoYEGwom5QDN9bA/oKRedY9hHdOkqlGedsIAXBIdwp89Cnot/fSUDCOqjZjUHbAb lNagPylWsJMne2m2hdWief5YXhsvc/CgSiy3XHkIJkNkpSABzDEV7ulsdVPjr1KL AA1ffynx+kSwKNEV10xAIwWhGc1f43z20dAQGEyo2+Wt2sX1RTLe6HCa/0nryVOc 6YlMI8kPpq15mRPdN1mvwqz+mQtHbOF4mxKjt+lW1NRm7tWwZKU50nzqy1j+aujL Q/+Y99SGaXbZbjPffe6HFAG5bEvhJAtfLNW0QZJNavZdwqslmhdyEnC1NPjedubr 8Ct8hzKxtHOnKYZqACBkkkUCZI32pHbG8JJiLzEPJOivpWlrLt9063gHsgtuVLEk FY+qsrCSCQL1g8KBhvhw0WwGuqOhNGCccgZTYZSngshfm1YlXsKAgqGVWC2vMBz6 ockRABEBAAGJAiUEGAECAA8FAlh9700CGwwFCQPCZwAACgkQbTeJ7cNAHhI1xQ// QZwfWqpB9Fl6UlwbCsikxb/yeye3LMQjeJaVkDxa4op15+LBlnOby/rBA8WtGfBq KqjH76uAvgaefleOJjJFTwTAGUIt/Db5PvhKztAzdNJeUIGBEz1QlmC16/9hhlgJ e1UCXRgd+z59bRY8acV113BxdIV26KU6rbK24Z442LIx07FneNJuoXgfN9Fm+/8T FeRD6+kMxzF9i1dVU+/EIufyUbFMA08KnlaevT6umDwHArGPIYjoJ5xVQl04x8dd RPrX2FpEHffFla8veKIM8x/T2yQwJeyXbLOsdVVvvGEHStinmePlkX6JV9A243/P IAtYo6GK1s8vqVV5kIJhkdsFG6nFVv4Zymhk5LUD9aRVY+wdelsrbOxWSf+TQz7n 37Or9Tu3LeAlx1wlym8NO+RFo2haCN53PAIqOOWMYZVM9JAq9FxkCF7uLIe9afd2 ErzEbAPt2yax2at6QvS+CBXlPh7qZ0xzuqDAtHJuZ41Umjr1vo2fXUwn+9dr+EtF 0KgR8nB31mEerr6wg+d1JoAKPnQ8Ja1xvlHakMa/WswzhtVwL63Z2G9VhAhN0jWv 4X3uu8Y3gXeQFQoiHHX0zxMKNdv2ujyqG8UQWqENOpgjfcv5TtsaWJrpW267BE61 R6o2nS+jYNBfJ1GD07srhQQtdgjDLgb8u197g8MhI1I= =iQPH -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- KEYDATA rpm --import "$TMPKEY" rc=$? rm -f "$TMPKEY" if [ "$rc" -eq "0" ]; then return 0 fi fi return 1 } -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, David T-G wrote:
Patrick, et al --
...and then Patrick Shanahan said... % % * David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> [04-16-18 18:10]: % > ... % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % vivaldi appears to use the least system resources.
Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.
THAT'S WHAT I MEAN!!!
:-)
OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-)
https://vivaldi.com/ IIRC it's FF with a (sligtly) different UI and some differing defaults. And behind on security patches. I trust it (quite a bit) less than its upstream. And the vivaldi website itself sucks. A lot. Go figure. *yuch* that fluffy prose of them advertising their rebranded FF (or Chromium, don't care actually), that makes me retch! And BTW: all that fluff that supposedly makes vivaldi stand out, that's a) either fluff inherently included in FF, just not enabled in the official binaries (but might be in out suse binaries), or it's just some "preinstalled" addons. Which anyone packaging FF can do. Just put the .xpi in the right place while building, or some such. So, basically, Vivaldi is FF built a tad different, as the suse build differ a bit from the official builds. And you might start to wonder, where they get all the money for the buildservers and that fancy, fluffy, horribly broken webpage. And it might be, that vivaldi.com does actually sell something, i.e. your (meta)data. Just inferring. Don't get me wrong, recently, I don't even trust a homebrewn FF build with a ton of crap disabled... But it's IMO still more trustworthy than chromium. Webkit? Huh, dunno. It's run by Apple nowadays... And IE/Edge? Hey, I run Linux exclusively since about '03 or so. And I trust M$ about as far as I can throw their whole headquarters over Lake Washington. So, I try to harness FF via addons and dns. I block a buttload of stuff via dns (dnsmasq), and uMatrix does not allow anything if I open random.example.com. Defaults differ. -dnh -- Q: What are the benefits of speaking to your fans via e-mail? A: It's quicker, easier, and involves less licking. -- Douglas N. Adams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:55:58 +0200 David Haller <dnh@opensuse.org> wrote:
Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.
You *are* mistaken. Vivaldi is a fork of Opera. Opera switched to Google's Blink rendering engine some years ago. Later the company was sold to a Chinese buyer. Vivaldi is the original developers' spin-off. It used to use the old Opera rendering engine but I believe it too has since switched to Blink. The "up-to-date-ish Firefox in a different guise" is Waterfox. https://www.waterfoxproject.org/en-US/ This is what I switched to after Firefox Quantum, as my "legacy" addons still work in Waterfox, which they do not in Firefox 58+. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Liam Proven wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:55:58 +0200 David Haller <dnh@opensuse.org> wrote:
Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.
You *are* mistaken.
Vivaldi is a fork of Opera.
Neither that. It's initiated by the man behind the original opera (as you wrote), but shares code with neither the old opera nor the new one. It's built on chromium sources. The current development snapshot are a bit rough, they just upgraded to chromium 65.0, which brought quite some changes. But I'm using it (Vivaldi, and in particular the snapshot developer version) since more than a year as my default (and actually only) browser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:38:25 +0100 Peter Suetterlin <pit@astro.su.se> wrote:
Neither that. It's initiated by the man behind the original opera (as you wrote), but shares code with neither the old opera nor the new one.
It's built on chromium sources.
OK, conceded. More of a management-level "fork", maybe? :-) It does aim to _look_ like Opera 12, though. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/hands-on-with-vivaldi... I admit I thought there was originally Opera code in it, but I have checked and I was mistaken. Sorry for the disinformation. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Liam Proven wrote:
David Haller <dnh@opensuse.org> wrote:
Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.
You *are* mistaken.
Vivaldi is a fork of Opera.
Neither that. It's initiated by the man behind the original opera (as you wrote), but shares code with neither the old opera nor the new one.
It's built on chromium sources.
Ah, one more chromium derivate then, not one of FF. -dnh -- Actually, I found New Zealanders to be the most akin to Canadians. They also feel the looming presense of a next door neighbour country full of loud, excessively happy and somewhat simple people, and are a little intimidated by it. -- Paul Tomblin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/17/2018 03:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:55:58 +0200 David Haller <dnh@opensuse.org> wrote:
Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.
You *are* mistaken.
Vivaldi is a fork of Opera.
No, I believe you have it wrong. Its a Chromium derivative. https://veilofmaya.vivaldi.net/vivaldi-browser-review-and-short-tutorial/ He clearly states Vivaldi browser is feature rich out of the box, something that many browsers today are lacking, it has innovation, changeable and configurable interface design. The browser at time of writing is based on Chromium 64, the latest version to date. Both versions of Vivaldi have that in common. Yes, for those who want bleeding edged software, Vivaldi has a Snapshot option that caters to you. Vivaldi-Snapshot features all the usual configurations and tab stacking with the added sync feature. He didn't even try to make it look like Opera. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:57:18 -0700 John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
No, I believe you have it wrong. Its a Chromium derivative.
Yes, I was. [...]
He didn't even try to make it look like Opera.
"Vivaldi is a brand new Web browser that wants to bring back all the old features of Opera 12 and then some." <https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/hands-on-with-vivaldi-the-new-web-browser-for-power-users/> "Vivaldi – A browser for all Opera 12 fans" <https://winaero.com/blog/vivaldi-a-browser-for-all-opera-12-fans/> -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, David T-G wrote:
Any discussions on the merits of each?
Do you want everthing you do with your browser tracked by google? Chrome will track you. Chromium should not. -dnh PS: I'm explicitly not saying anything about FF (official binary) or FF(suse). Ok, well, I trust Wolfgang (our Mozillen maintainer), and I've been over some parts of the source or tracked it in action. Question is, then besides the obvious stated above, how much can you trust the FF/Chromium upstream. Myself, I avoid even Chromium (and Chromium is e.g. inside the current QtWebengine, and thus, I avoid qtwebengine). Go figure. -- panic("Detected a card I can't drive - whoops\n"); linux-2.2.16/drivers/net/daynaport.c -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-04-17 00:08, David T-G wrote:
Hi, all --
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each?
I use Chrome when I go to some commercial site that has problems with FF. And it is Chrome and not Chromium because the "commercial" version has a better chance of working, and if not, I can tell the site maintainers. If I use some "strange" browser they'll just ignore it and me. I suppose that chromium removes some commercial pieces. Just guessing. -- Cheers/Saludos Carlos E. R. (testing openSUSE Leap 15.0, at Minas-Anor) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote:
Hi, all --
OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each?
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better).
Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the one application, the one process doing its own scheduling, the one address space that it manages itself. very definitely NOT the "UNIX" way of doing things, but then it grew out of the (MS-)DOS world where there wasn't a proper OS to do these things. The Chrome/Chromium model is to have one process per tab. In effect one window in the larger X-Window frame. Yes, you can do that with X. The one-process-per-task is more the "UNIX way". But let's see, I have 3 FF windows: 120 tabs, 210 tabs and 170 tabs. I've given up on groups. Groups seemed to be the killer. Perhaps a badly designed plug-in. The machine is quite responsive with only 4G of memory, and this is an old Dell Optiplex 755.
I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each?
I have ChromIUM as well. If I'm running FF with even one window and perhaps 80 tabs and start ChromIUM with more than one or two tabs it fill my machine. Load factor goes astronomic, somewhere in the 40 to 60 range before it stops reporting. The only way out is to reboot. I planed to test with more memory, actually bought some, but now I'm not sure I'll bother with those tests. I'll just life with FF. The upcoming version is supposed to be an improvement, no need for Groups.
I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-)
It's not that they stink, well, OK, they do, but that's beside the point. Its that they are complex and and as a result buggy and do not play well. These are not, many things are now not "do just one thing" and interface well. Not only do they try to do everything in one package, but they try to be multi-platform, and that gets matters confused. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-04-17 02:04, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote:
Hi, all --
OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each?
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better).
Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the one application, the one process doing its own scheduling, the one address space that it manages itself. very definitely NOT the "UNIX" way of doing things, but then it grew out of the (MS-)DOS world where there wasn't a proper OS to do these things.
Not the new FF on 15.0, there seems to be a "Web-Content" process per tab. Or for some tabs. Right now I saw one using 20% CPU. I killed if from top, and now one tab displays: Gah. Your tab just crashed. We can help! Choose Restore This Tab to reload the page. Nice :-) -- Cheers/Saludos Carlos E. R. (testing openSUSE Leap 15.0, at Minas-Anor) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On April 16, 2018 8:18:38 PM PDT, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote:
Hi, all --
OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each?
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better).
Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the one application, the one process doing its own scheduling, the one address space that it manages itself. very definitely NOT the "UNIX" way of doing
On 2018-04-17 02:04, Anton Aylward wrote: things, but
then it grew out of the (MS-)DOS world where there wasn't a proper OS to do these things.
Not the new FF on 15.0, there seems to be a "Web-Content" process per tab. Or for some tabs.
Right now I saw one using 20% CPU. I killed if from top, and now one tab displays:
Gah. Your tab just crashed. We can help!
Choose Restore This Tab to reload the page.
Nice :-)
Wait, CICS grew out of MSDOS? Who Knew? -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % % On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote: % > Hi, all -- % % OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each? Not too many, and not as many as I do under Windows (mostly because of inertia; life is busy). I'm actually surprised to find that I don't have any at all in FFox at the moment, although I expected at least NoScript. With XMarks going away I'll likely turn to RoboForm, and then AdBlock Plus & Tree-Style Tab round out the core set. I use AdBlock for Chrome (written by my brother :-) and XMarks -> RoboForm + Keep, and I'm still looking for a good NoScript equivalent. My Dad is a fan of some tab grouping-and-storing thing, but I haven't met it. I wish T-S T were available for Chrome :-| % % > I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've % > noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is % > interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). % % Well, yes. % The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how % many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the *grin* Plus a nod to Carlos who showed a multi-process model. ... % % The Chrome/Chromium model is to have one process per tab. In effect one window % in the larger X-Window frame. Yes, you can do that with X. The Right, and that's supposed to be more granular and more better. But ... % one-process-per-task is more the "UNIX way". But let's see, I have 3 FF % windows: 120 tabs, 210 tabs and 170 tabs. I've given up on groups. Groups % seemed to be the killer. Perhaps a badly designed plug-in. The machine is % quite responsive with only 4G of memory, and this is an old Dell Optiplex 755. Wouldn't that be nice :-( Mind is an E6540 with 8G and my load average often shoots through the roof. % % > I just found % > that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. % > Any discussions on the merits of each? % % I have ChromIUM as well. If I'm running FF with even one window and perhaps 80 ... % reporting. The only way out is to reboot. I planed to test with more memory, I'm glad I don't get quite that far, although I probably should reboot more often than I do (what a pain). But, yeah, I see the same problems. % actually bought some, but now I'm not sure I'll bother with those tests. I'll Hey, if you have it, load it! :-) % just life with FF. The upcoming version is supposed to be an improvement, no % need for Groups. % % > I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % It's not that they stink, well, OK, they do, but that's beside the point. Its ... % do they try to do everything in one package, but they try to be multi-platform, % and that gets matters confused. Yep. Thanks again & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:04:33 -0400 Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs.
This has not been true for about a year. Firefox switched to a multiprocess model in about April 2017: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox/Multiprocess_Firefox It is called Project Electrolysis: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis/Multiple_content_processes 1 process shows the app and spawns up to 3 background processes for rendering tab content. Thus it can effectively use up to 4 cores, which is still as many as is common on most PCs, but doesn't eat all the resources it can get, as Chrome does. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 17/04/18 06:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:04:33 -0400 Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs.
This has not been true for about a year.
Thank you for the update and the references.
Firefox switched to a multiprocess model in about April 2017:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox/Multiprocess_Firefox
As far as I can see it is still like old IBM CICS in that even if the CPU has multiple cores that can be managed, resource allocated within FF, it is the one address space. I'd view these as process threads but here Linux different, it seems, from Windows. Threads are just another entry in the process table and are deal with by the main scheduler. Or has that changed too? It's been a while since I read the scheduler code. What I consider to be multiprocessing is complete process separation. Not just separate entries in the proc table but their own address space as well. For example, when I run Thunderbird and Dolphin. They may make calls toe shared libraries, send messages to the various layers of the X display via my desktop, but they are separate processes. I suppose the ultimate definition of a separate process is 'can you run it on a physically separate machine?' Use SSH and IO redirection ... And this mail editor window in Thunderbird? I think it is a 'thread' since if i kill the main Thunderbird process this dies too. But I'll have to 'look under the hood' to confirm it and that can wait for a few more cups of coffee and for me to clear more on today's bucket list.
It is called Project Electrolysis:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis/Multiple_content_processes
1 process shows the app and spawns up to 3 background processes for rendering tab content. Thus it can effectively use up to 4 cores, which is still as many as is common on most PCs, but doesn't eat all the resources it can get, as Chrome does.
Never the less, that's better than, as they say, a poke in the eye with a blunt stick. I think I'll stick with FF until further notice :-) Certainly upgrade this machine's memory and a new machine with the capability for more and faster memory to page 8 of my budget. -- "Too many preachers use the bible as a stepladder for their soapbox." -- John Tandervold -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:28:23 -0400 Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
Thank you for the update and the references.
Welcome! Mozilla is working hard to keep Firefox as one of the most advanced browsers on the market. Personally, I am more than just sad, I am a little angry, that it has deprecated XUL and thus rendered all XUL addons obsolete. This move wasn't even synchronised with an ESR release, which would have been sensible and helpful. No, we customisers were cut off mid-release-cycle, which is why for now I have switched to Waterfox (Firefox ESR on my work machines). I am hoping either that Waterfox thrives with the renewed attention, or that Mozilla upgrades the WebExtension functionality and most XUL addons get ported across. Personally, one of the main reasons I used Firefox was its customisability. I have a vertical tab bar, merged with a vertical bookmarks bar, cross-browser bookmark sync, an enhanced downloads manager, a status bar, a downloads tab, and more. Almost none of this works in Firefox Quantum.
What I consider to be multiprocessing is complete process separation. Not just separate entries in the proc table but their own address space as well. For example, when I run Thunderbird and Dolphin. They may make calls toe shared libraries, send messages to the various layers of the X display via my desktop, but they are separate processes.
I suppose the ultimate definition of a separate process is 'can you run it on a physically separate machine?' Use SSH and IO redirection ...
AIUI the browser vendors' more pragmatic aim is simply to support multi-processor machines, so if the browser processors can run on separate CPUs, that's good enough.
Never the less, that's better than, as they say, a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.
Definitely! :-) -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Den 2018-04-17 kl. 00:08, skrev David T-G:
Hi, all --
I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each?
I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-)
I have/had high hopes for Brave due to privacy and build in ad-, phishing-, tracking- and malware-block (shields). Unfortunately it's a resource hog on linux at the moment. And it probably tick a lot of boxes for folks that hate js/electron/nodejs/npm. Anyway, here it is. https://www.brave.com/download/ https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/ cheers, -- /bengan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:08:37 -0400 David T-G <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> wrote:
I just found that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. Any discussions on the merits of each?
Chromium is the FOSS basis of Chrome. It does not include the proprietary bits Google adds. The main difference is that Chrome has some built-in plugins, chief among which is a built-in Flash player which is automatically updated along with the app itself. This is a considerable boon and as a result Chrome can often play content that Firefox can't without adding and configuring external 3rd party plugins. I use both Chrome and Waterfox, with bookmarks synchronised via the wonderful Xmarks addon, which is sadly soon to be turned off. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Anton Aylward -
Bengt Gördén -
Carlos E. R. -
David C. Rankin -
David Haller -
David T-G -
Dennis Gallien -
John Andersen -
Liam Proven -
Patrick Shanahan -
Peter Suetterlin