James Knott schreef:

Oddball wrote:

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Nothing...

Since you don't say much in your message, it's hard to know exactly what you want, but there is Mozilla sync, which synchronizes info, including passwords, bookmarks etc. with Firefox and Seamonkey browsers. Thnx, the touchpad is a disaster atm: have to set it to off when typing.. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2012 04:47 PM, James Knott wrote:

Oddball wrote:

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Thnx, the touchpad is a disaster atm: have to set it to off when typing.. ;-)

I know that feeling all too well, which is why I always disable the touch pad and use the trackpoint on my ThinkPad.

If it's synaptics (or using the driver), then syndaemon is your friend :) echo 'syndaemon -d -K' > ~/.kde/Autostart/fixtpad chmod 0754 ~/.kde/Autostart/fixtpad (or substitute your favorite desktop's autostart location) Works like a champ in 11.4 & kde3. It has worked the same way since? 10.0? So well, I had forgotten it was even running. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott schreef:

David C. Rankin wrote:

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On 06/15/2012 04:47 PM, James Knott wrote:

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Thnx, the touchpad is a disaster atm: have to set it to off when typing..;-) I know that feeling all too well, which is why I always disable

Oddball wrote: the touch pad and use the trackpoint on my ThinkPad. If it's synaptics (or using the driver), then syndaemon is your friend:)

echo 'syndaemon -d -K'> ~/.kde/Autostart/fixtpad chmod 0754 ~/.kde/Autostart/fixtpad

(or substitute your favorite desktop's autostart location)

Works like a champ in 11.4& kde3. It has worked the same way since? 10.0? So well, I had forgotten it was even running.

I just create a script in the Autostart folder:

#!/bin/sh synclient TouchpadOff=1

Works fine.

Does this turn Touchpad off all the time? Sometimes i want to use its mouse functions... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott schreef:

Oddball wrote:

...

...

I just create a script in the Autostart folder:

#!/bin/sh synclient TouchpadOff=1

Works fine.

Does this turn Touchpad off all the time? Sometimes i want to use its mouse functions...

It turns off the touchpad when KDE starts. I suppose you could manually issue the command "synclient TouchpadOff=0", though I've never tried it. If it works, you can always create an icon to run that command when needed.

KDE4 has a extensive configuration module for touchpad in inputdevices. The option: 'slow down double tapping speed' improved the sensitivity a lot. Touching the pad too lightly on this eeepc makes it select a lot of text.... Turn of pad while typing was already on, but i guess i have to figure out the best timing to activate it again. The text reads something like: 'Keyboard on after 0.80 s', and is adjustable with slider and/or keyboard, but seems wrong, looks like the opposite is needed. It also can be auto-disabled when a mouse is plugged in. Much time has been put into this module when i look at it. Turning it off completely would force me to use a mouse, instead of me learning to use the pad, which is already a part of this tiny machine. I appreciate your input on the matter.. :-) Kind Regards, Rob. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott schreef:

Oddball wrote:

...

Thnx, the touchpad is a disaster atm: have to set it to off when typing.. ;-)

I know that feeling all too well, which is why I always disable the touch pad and use the trackpoint on my ThinkPad.

I you have a track point... an eeepc only has a touch pad... i used to use a usb mouse for this annoying behavior... but the fuss always carry it around makes it less attractive.. The sync option is a wondrous one: you don't see it happen, but this morning, when opening sea monkey after reboot, all passwords were there. Makes me feel back in the 90's: when i was delivering proof to Netscape for the sabotage committed by M$. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 06/16/2012 05:02 AM:

Anton Aylward schreef:

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There is a utility for firefox called

"Password Exporter"

https://github.com/fligtar/password-exporter/wiki/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/password-exporter/

It can save passwords in CSV format and of course import a file of the same format.

See the documentation for the format

Thanks Anton.

Now i need the option to answer the list only, to prevent spamming e-mail boxes with duplicate e-mails, or landing in the wrong filter Dir. (I know i can manually remove an entry, or manually add another one.)

There's a 'how long is a piece of string' in that. First, there is also a 'duplicate remover' available for Thunderbird as well. There are many other tools. You can search the Mozilla archives. Since this is the suse list its reasonable for me to assume you are running Linux, therefore 'procmail' is available to you. Even though Thunderbird has a 'reply to list' button, which is what I use, you could also set up a procmail filter that recognised incoming mail from this list and used the 'formail' tool to insert a 'reply-to' that meets your requirements. In fact procmail is a much better filtering tool than the filters built into *any* email reader/gui and could probably address your issues to do with putting messages in the right directories. I use it to do a level of spam filtering that spamassassin can't manage. Oh, and please don't reply to both the list and to me; I receive the list. Of you want to reply to me personally and not the list, please mark the subject line so it reads something like "[open OFF LIST suse]" so that my procmail filters won't put it in the suse folder and will mark it as 'personal'. Thank you. -- When one find's oneself in a hole of one's own making, it is a good time to examine the quality of the workmanship. --John Renmerde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen said the following on 06/16/2012 09:54 AM:

Anton Aylward wrote:

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In fact procmail is a much better filtering tool than the filters built into *any* email reader/gui and could probably address your issues to do with putting messages in the right directories. I use it to do a level of spam filtering that spamassassin can't manage.

Anton, I'm curious - what extra filtering do you do with procmail that spamassassin can't do for you?

Procmail can do things that spamassassin can't. Rewriting and inserting headers is just one of them. There are many procmail recipes documented on the 'Net that you can review. Among the things I do with procmail - whitelist before submitting to spamassassin - blacklist before submitting to spamassassin procmail is already running before its going to submit the mail to spamd so make it do some work up front' - assign different levels/types of spam, degree of certainty to different folders or /dev/null Obviously a "40" goes to /dev/null and not the spambox! But some just over the threshold might not actually be spam, they might just have triggered on a keyword or awkward header - assign mailing lists & others to appropriate folders spamassassin doesn't do that and the GUI is a bit simplistic compared to what procmail can do. - deal with redirections and correct old/dead domains As I say, if you read over some of the more complex, more amazing procmail recipes you'll see that its a fabulous and flexible tool. How many of the things here http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html can you do with spamassassin? Perhaps this http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html#moniker partially answers a question previously asked. -- The great successful men of the world have used their imagination ... think ahead and create their mental picture in all it details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this a bit and that a bit, but steadily building - steadily building. -- Robert Collier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 06/16/2012 11:39 AM:

Anton Aylward schreef:

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Per Jessen said the following on 06/16/2012 09:54 AM:

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Anton Aylward wrote:

Perhaps this http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html#moniker partially answers a question previously asked.

Looks impressive, but I am not as deep in this to understand, or use it myself..

Once upon a time neither was I, but I copied these and other things I found on the 'Net and slowly modified them ...

I use SW, not create or code it, neither will i pretend that i do, or look at myself less, for not being able to do it.

Indeed; I could say that too and so can many people here. But the copying of other people's freely given genius, adjusting configuration and so forth, hidden by a GUI or using a text editors, well calling it 'programming' is a fuzzy ... If that's programming then so is giving someone directions using a map. I think you are putting yourself down. I wouldn't claim to be a programmer but going in, copying one of these and changing a few lines - the address of the mailbox, my home directory, the place I've put the libraries, the threshold level for spamassassin and the number of "*"'s to look for ... that's "programming"? You surprise me! Now if you want me to go in and alter the way KDE redraws ... yes that would be programming and no I don't think I could do that.

I prefer Linux above M$ for several reasons. But many things are easier for most ppl, because almost everybody uses it. Manufacturers depend on it, and closed source means you can charge for it.

For some values of "easier". Personally I find Windows awkward, but then I've bee using UNIX and UNIX derivatives since 1978. Oh, there are specific things I can use under Windows, mostly because there is no Linux equivalent close enough, but on the whole "close enough" is often a lot easier. For example, I still can't import into MS-Money and I've experimented with KMyMoney and its a lot easier and I *CAN* import from my bank but I simply cannot get MSMoney to export in a format that KMyMoney can read .... I'm going to have to find a way to edit/transform those export files. Probably read it in to a spreadsheet and do a global replace. Would you call using things like sort and edit in a spreadsheet "programming"? I wouldn't. Is using this in an editor s/03-\([01]\)-\([012][1-9]\)/2003-\1-\2/ programming? I don't think so; its the application. -- Life's a bitch. Then you die. Then you get re-incarnated and it starts all over again only worse. And it doesn't matter if you don't believe in reincarnation, Life's still a bitch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 06/16/2012 12:24 PM:

Well i have to admit that the only way i can use code, is the way you describe here, and i am glad there are ppl who freely give it to be used by everybody who wants to use it!

Not even that. A hundred million (internet) years ago the Apple ][ came out with a spreadsheet program, and people who would never dream of programming the mainframe and database - the only other serious computers around - were doing fantastic things with that simple spreadsheet, something crippled compared to OOCalc. I'm sure there are plenty of sales-critters who are using tools on the 'Web and head-hunters using tools on LinkedIn who are not programmers, never thing of themselves as programmers, either, but are still Getting Things Done in ways that would have required them to be a programmer a quarter, half a century (real time) ago. All with stuff that is most definitely not Open Source.

Now that is the exact reason i use and prefer open source above it's closed brother.

Oh? -- Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Oddball [mailto:monkey9@iae.nl] Sent: June-16-12 12:25 PM To: Anton Aylward Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] How to import passwords from FF into SM?

Well i have to admit that the only way i can use code, is the way you describe here, and i am glad there are ppl who freely give it to be used by everybody who wants to use it! Now that is the exact reason i use and prefer open source above it's closed brother. Sharing is 'commie' talk in a 'capital' world, but i believe in it, because everything belongs to everybody, but because a few ppl believe otherwise, hundreds of millions of ppl are poor.

Maybe I am extra grumpy because it is insanely hot here, over 27 degrees Celsius (for our 'merkin cousins, that's over 80 degrees Fahrenheit ;-), but I can't let that stand. I get especially angry when someone accuses me of evil, such as impoverishing hundreds of millions of people, just because I want to be paid for my work. If this is not what you meant, I suggest you rephrase, or explain more clearly, precisely what you meant. First I will say that I use open source software and in my view the world is a richer place because some companies have been able to develop a business model that lets them distribute and support open source software. But, I would observe, that they use a business model that can not work in all cases. Second, I would say that generally software developed at government labs ought to be open source, or at least freely available to the citizens of the country that supported that development, because tax dollars are involved and thus that software is the property of everyone who paid taxes in that jurisdiction. But ... To claim that private enterprise is to blame for global poverty is simple minded folly. Private enterprise is nothing more than production and distribution of goods: agriculture, manufacturing, and both local and international trade; and cash or capital is a mere convenience to make trade, both local and international, easier. There is recent evidence that Homo sapiens survived the latest ice age while Neanderthals went extinct, even though they had existed much longer than we have, and they were better adapted physically to the north European climate than we were, because they did not engage even in local trade while we did. It was our sociability and willingness to trade that let us take advantage of opportunities in harsh environments that could not be exploited if one limited oneself to only those resources available locally; one could argue that that is one of many attributes that actually makes us distinct as human beings. There are many causes of poverty, the most ubiquitous being environmental and laziness. There are many places in this world that are so harsh that opportunities for survival are limited at best. I worked for a time in the Punjab, and for several years before I had arrived, the monsoons had failed. Consequently, the reservoir nearest me was scarcely deeper than the average toddler's wading pool, even though, when designed, and after a few years of good monsoonal rains, it would have been a decent sized lake hundreds of meters deep. That reservoir, in such times, supported many tens of thousands of hectares of farmland. At the time I arrived, all of that farmland had returned to the desert, growing nothing, and leaving the locals starving. I say that if those people want to live there, that is their prerogative, but do not blame me if as a result of such folly they occasionally starve. It is smarted to operate a farm in the Niagara region of southern Ontario than it is to try to operate a farm in the desert (and yes, I am aware that some 'merkins, having more dollars than sense, operate farms in deserts of the 'merkin southwest. If they want to do so, that is their prerogative, but they have no one to blame for the coming poverty when they face the same crisis that the native populations in the same deserts experienced centuries ago. The idea of sharing is not new, the earliest traces of it that I have seen being in the earliest Judeo-Christian. I have not read about similar concepts in any of the pre-Christian Roman or Greek literature I have read. Some of the older testament laws were specifically designed to help the poor (such as farmers being prohibited from gleaning their fields so that the poor could find plenty of food by gleaning the fields after the harvest had been taken). The first church, in Jerusalem, was what we'd call communist today: everyone, rich and poor alike, sold everything they had and put it into a common purse, as it were: share and share alike. We don't know why that experiment failed, but fail it did and that is why Paul and his colleagues are reported to have commonly raised funds to help that church as he travelled the Mediterranean. The next experiment with communism that I am aware of was in the US, centuries ago, practiced by the first settlers. We know why that experiment failed. Some in the community were lazy, and enough of them failed to work their fields as they ought to have during their first summer that many crops failed, and most of the settlers died. All would have died had their native neighbors not come to their aide. Their experiment with communism ended quickly once they figured out why the crops failed and why so many starved to death. Two more recent examples will suffice. First, in China, there was a man made famine right after the communists one their revolution. I have this on the authority of a man, a friend of mine who lived it and for some reason I'll never understand still loves China. What he told me was that the communist leaders won the support of the agricultural communities by promising they'd have an easy life because the communist party would take care of them: share and share alike the wealth of China! So, when the war was over, many farmers partied for the first year, and put their feet up to relax, as it were, because the party would take care of them. So many did this that there was wide spread crop failure, and close to 50 million people died. It did not take the Chinese authorities long to figure out what went awry, and understood that a major part of the wealth of China was agricultural, and there was no wealth to distribute if the farmers did not work their fields as usual. The quickly ensured that all the farming communities in China learned that so that that mistake would not be repeated. Alas, like everyone I have met that have transformed the virtue of sharing into a political ideology (or equally accurate idiocy), they failed to take into account human nature. In China, that idea of willingness to share was soon transformed into compulsion to share, and the very friend who loves China and survived the famine that followed the revolution, was one of countless young people who were forced into slavery on government run farms. Of course, the government didn't call it slavery; they called it re-education. The end result was the same, of course, in which the people so enslaved had no choice but to obey, and slave their lives away, receiving only scarcely sufficient food to survive and woefully inadequate shelter, while the communist leaders lived lives of luxury. I can not understand his affection for a county that has treated him so shamefully. The folk in the Ukraine ought to be relatively wealthy since the farmland there is incredibly fertile. But, many decades ago, when my parents were young, while their crops didn't fail, their Russian masters forced them to share; and how many died as a result? Ironically, both Russia and China are doing well now, and will be major economic powers for at least the first half of this century precisely because they have adapted to transform themselves into having a form of the capitalism that you apparently despise. One other cause of poverty worth mentioning, in part because it will be causing major problems of the coming century, is stupidity combined with ignorance combined with lust for power by Muslim religious leaders. These leaders know that if you keep people ignorant, knowing only what you tell them, you can persuade them to do almost anything. That is why, across north Africa, through the middle east and into south western Asia, you have constant warfare instigated by these leaders against anyone who believes differently: in the Sudan, and across north Africa, Arab Muslims slaughtering black animist and Christian neighbors for many generations now, and throughout the middle east, Shia and Sunni clerics ranting, instigating violence, against each other as well as the West and Israel. You have Turkey and Iran waging a proxy war in Syria as a result. All that warfare is guaranteed to keep the entire Muslim world in poverty; and the rest of the world is at risk if they let themselves be drawn into it. War is bad for most businesses, and poverty is an inevitable result. It is important to note, though, that so-called religious wars have almost nothing to do with religion (except possibly Islam - in which the Quran has no redeeming content - trust me, I have read it cover to cover) and everything to do with political leaders exploiting general levels of ignorance among the masses and manipulating the ignorant into doing what they would otherwise not do. I am sure the software developers at Microsoft and Intel and IBM and Oracle, and all the other commercial software houses are much like me; we're just people who happen to develop software for a living. Some of us do it well, and some not so well, but that is beside the point. We're just people trying to earn a living. And you have the temerity to accuse us of contributing to global poverty because we want to be paid for our work? I don't know which is more obscene: the idea that I ought to work for free because I happen to develop software, so you can have it without paying for it, or that I am guilty of impoverishing the world because I want to be paid for my work; and this in spite of the ample evidence visible to anyone with eyes to see the world as it is that there are many causes of poverty. Might I suggest, to you, and any other open source fanatic, that it is more constructive to adhere to another philosophical idea, to be found in the writings of ancient Greek and Roman authors, as well as the Bible and some eastern religious, philosophical texts, variously known as meekness or the way of the middle? The idea we shouldn't share is not good, but I am not aware of any great examples of widespread evil that has happened because that idea was abused. That we should share is a good idea, but great evils have happened because some idiot took the idea and transformed it first into a political idea (and not taking human nature into account, specifically the tendency to be lazy, cause catastrophic famine and death) and then into a political weapon (as Russia did against the Ukraine). The middle is best, in which sharing is regarded as a virtue, widely practiced, but not imposed. Similarly, capital, viewed as merely a device of instrumental value in the support of trade, can result in great wealth, as most western countries show, even in these 'interesting times', but that other human attribute, greed, or the love of money, has caused all kinds of evil when left unchecked. The resulting position, with regard to software, is that there is a place for both open source software and closed source software, and neither has an ethical advantage over the other. Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Oddball [mailto:monkey9@iae.nl] Sent: June-18-12 4:54 AM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] How to import passwords from FF into SM? [off-topic]

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-----Original Message----- From: Oddball [mailto:monkey9@iae.nl] Sent: June-16-12 12:25 PM To: Anton Aylward Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] How to import passwords from FF into SM?

Well i have to admit that the only way i can use code, is the way you describe here, and i am glad there are ppl who freely give it to be used by everybody who wants to use it! Now that is the exact reason i use and prefer open source above it's closed brother. Sharing is 'commie' talk in a 'capital' world, but i believe in it, because everything belongs to everybody, but because a few ppl believe otherwise, hundreds of millions of ppl are poor.

Maybe I am extra grumpy because it is insanely hot here, over 27 degrees Celsius (for our 'merkin cousins, that's over 80 degrees Fahrenheit ;-), but I can't let that stand. I get especially angry when someone accuses me of evil, such as impoverishing hundreds of millions of people, just because I want to be paid for my work. If this is not what you meant, I suggest you rephrase, or explain more clearly,

Op 6/16/2012 10:02 PM, Ted Byers schreef: precisely what you meant.

Yes, i admit, this is 'poorly' stated from my side, and it got a little off-topic:

OK. Fair enough. I am still grumpy, though, because it is still insanely hot here. And worse, I have discovered that mites have almost killed my Turkish eggplant, tomato plant and pepper plant, and have started on my orchids (I started treatment as soon as I observed their presence, so my orchids at least ought to survive OK). But I am really disappointed at the probable loss of my tomatoes and pepper (a sweet hot variety).

Let me enlighten my findings here below, What i mean is merely that capitalism, as it is used now, with the ridiculous importance money has become nowadays, some ppl make a billion a day, of the misery of hundreds of millions of ppl, increasing this misery even more, is in my opinion overdone. Pointing to the situation in Europe now:

The only reason for Europe's crisis is the fact that the coins value is incorrect. To be a common coin, it should have a common value, not a Dollar-mirror. The value should be the average of all the coins, which would be a quarter of the value it has now. Spain has to pay 44 pesetas for one Euro: Absolutely ridiculous. Only logical that common ppl loose track of value this way: Everything 'looks' cheap. Negative effect: Prices go up more: Even more money lost. All the so called 'experts', do not seem to understand that the only way to control the crisis, is to devaluate, and compensate all ppl and companies, with newly printed money; because they have 'no feeling' with the common man and woman: They live in the luxury of their overpriced salary.

I think this greatly over-simplifies the problem, and may focus on what I suspect is a symptom of a deeper problem. One problem, that has been allowed to fester for decades is that those in the EU broke their own rules in admitting some of the current members by not insisting that the new members get their own economic houses in order. The idea of the Euro isn't wrong in principle, as the USA is larger geographically, and has a huge population, but it would have been stronger had they implemented it correctly from the start and maintained its integrity as the EU grew. But politicks got in the way. That is a major component in the case of Greece, and perhaps Spain too. Another problem involves stupid politicians making unsustainable promises to an equally stupid populace; with the net result that too many people end up working too few hours. One need look only at the average hours worked during the week, length of annual holidays, and age at retirement, and the huge discrepancy in those stats between northern Europe and southern Europe to see why southern European countries typically don't have a tax base adequate to support the insanely generous social programs they promised to idiots that voted these politicians into office. I haven't done it, but it would be interesting to do a detailed comparative study of how social welfare programs in places like Sweden and Germany, arguably quite rich, and equally arguably countries that have very strong economies, have been implemented without such devastating impacts on the economies that their southern neighbors suffer. A third problem involves the extent of tax evasion. Some of the sources I have read have described extensive problems with tax evasion, especially in Greece. Of course, those guilty of that crime don't care that in doing so they have become a major contributor to the sovereign debt crisis in Greece especially. In Italy, a major problem is organised crime. The Mafia has a huge impact on the economic viability of especially southern Italy. What many don't notice, though, that there is an even more severe problem with corruption throughout the Muslim world and in India: places in which almost nothing happens without bribes being paid. But few notice the macro-economic impact as these are mostly developing countries so most people expect them to be basket cases. I'll bet, though, that India will be among the first affected countries that takes measures to deal with it as they grow to become a major economic powerhouse over the next few decades. One last cause worth mentioning is the insane risk management practices in the Eurozone banking sector. There, a contrast with Canada's banking sector serves well. Canada's banking sector is better capitalized than any other country on the planet, and it survived the latest economic crisis unscathed. Europe's banks are, by comparison, poorly capitalized and that led to the crises in Iceland and Ireland especially (and remarkably once crisis hit, those two countries took appropriate remedial action, and so ought to be OK going forward). Others in Europe don't appear to have learned from that experience. Worse, some of the risk models they use are seriously broken and can be guaranteed to give the wrong answer; and when (not if) these go wrong, the bank involved, and the businesses that deal with it, are certain to suffer. (I presently work developing risk management software in the electronic transaction processing sector, so this is an area of applied statistics I know well - and I have seen the consequences when certain processes got bit by using a bad risk assessment model). While I sympathize with the attractiveness of simple solutions, I don't believe such simple solutions are going to be effective without first addressing the underlying causes, and that is hard because it can be very hard to properly identify the underlying causes well enough to know how to best address them, and then it is even harder to deal with the politics of applying the fix. How do you fix the problems cause by corruption, the Mafia in the case of Italy, without risking a blood bath? As much as most people don't like paying taxes, how do you get enough of the populace to recognize that it is essential for everyone to pay his taxes if there is to be a decent social welfare program provided by the state?

I mean the financial markets here, not individual SW Devs, or small SW companies let that be clear.. Ppl just have to earn a living, to pay the price to be alive...

OK. That makes you very different from the open source fanatics out there. I guess the intensity of my anger derives in part from past arguments with some of them, who went to so far as to accuse me of being guilty of causing world poverty and to declare they have a right, therefore to address the evils of closed source software by pirating it and distributing it freely to whoever that asks for it (a crime in most jurisdictions, though widely tolerated in those parts of south Asia where I have worked in the past, and undoubtedly elsewhere).

When it gets to monopolies, like M$, more than enough ppl pay for that, i choose not to, and use it otherwise.

...

First I will say that I use open source software and in my view the world is a richer place because some companies have been able to develop a business model that lets them distribute and support open source software. But, I would observe, that they use a business model that can not work in all cases.

Absolutely..

...

Second, I would say that generally software developed at government labs ought to be open source, or at least freely available to the citizens of the country that supported that development, because tax dollars are involved and thus that software is the property of everyone who paid taxes in that jurisdiction.

That would be only logical, and a tremendous improvement.

...

But ...

To claim that private enterprise is to blame for global poverty is simple minded folly.

Indeed.

...

Private enterprise is nothing more than production and distribution of goods: agriculture, manufacturing, and both local and international trade; and cash or capital is a mere convenience to make trade, both local and international, easier. There is recent evidence that Homo sapiens survived the latest ice age while Neanderthals went extinct, even though they had existed much longer than we have, and they were better adapted physically to the north European climate than we were, because they did not engage even in local trade while we did. It was our sociability and willingness to trade that let us take advantage of opportunities in harsh environments that could not be exploited if one limited oneself to only those resources available locally; one could argue that that is one of many attributes that actually makes us distinct as human beings.

There are many causes of poverty, the most ubiquitous being environmental and laziness. There are many places in this world that are so harsh that opportunities for survival are limited at best. I worked for a time in the Punjab, and for several years before I had arrived, the monsoons had failed. Consequently, the reservoir nearest me was scarcely deeper than the average toddler's wading pool, even though, when designed, and after a few years of good monsoonal rains, it would have been a decent sized lake hundreds of meters deep. That reservoir, in such times, supported many tens of thousands of hectares of farmland. At the time I arrived, all of that farmland had returned to the desert, growing nothing, and leaving the locals starving. I say that if those people want to live there, that is their prerogative, but do not blame me if as a result of such folly they occasionally starve. It is smarted to operate a farm in the Niagara region of southern Ontario than it is to try to operate a farm in the desert (and yes, I am aware that some 'merkins, having more dollars than sense, operate farms in deserts of the 'merkin southwest. If they want to do so, that is their prerogative, but they have no one to blame for the coming poverty when they face the same crisis that the native populations in the same deserts experienced centuries ago.

I agree...

...

The idea of sharing is not new, the earliest traces of it that I have seen being in the earliest Judeo-Christian. I have not read about similar concepts in any of the pre-Christian Roman or Greek literature I

have read.

...

Some of the older testament laws were specifically designed to help the poor (such as farmers being prohibited from gleaning their fields so that the poor could find plenty of food by gleaning the fields after the harvest had been taken). The first church, in Jerusalem, was what we'd call communist today: everyone, rich and poor alike, sold everything they had and put it into a common purse, as it were: share and share alike. We don't know why that experiment failed,

It failed for the same reason as animal farm failed: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than other animals...

...

but fail it did and that is why Paul and his colleagues are reported to have commonly raised funds to help that church as he travelled the Mediterranean. The next experiment with communism that I am aware of was in the US, centuries ago, practiced by the first settlers. We know why that experiment failed. Some in the community were lazy, and enough of them failed to work their fields as they ought to have during their first summer that many crops failed, and most of the settlers died.

same reason...

All men's 3 enemies: Ignorance, Slowness of the mind, Preference for evil.

...

All would have died had their native neighbors not come to their aide. Their experiment with communism ended quickly once they figured out why the crops failed and why so many starved to death. Two more recent examples will suffice. First, in China, there was a man made famine right after the communists one their revolution. I have this on the authority of a man, a friend of mine who lived it and for some reason I'll never understand still loves China. What he told me was that the communist leaders won the support of the agricultural communities by promising they'd have an easy life because the communist party would take care of them: share and share alike the wealth of China! So, when the war was over, many farmers partied for the first year, and put their feet up to relax, as it were, because the party would take care of them. So many did this that there was wide spread crop failure, and close to 50 million people died.

Same happened after the French revolution: Farmers took over the rule, after they decapitated all original 'leaders', and nobody worked the land.... And then when Church (keep'em dumb) and (state) King (keep'em poor) were murdered, and everybody died of hunger, capitalism started to take over

We must not forget the ubiquity of greed and laziness. the

'free' world... Industrialization had made an entry to stay....

I don't think there was even that much distinction between the church and state. From as early as the sixth century, (Gregory of Tours in the south of France and the venerable Bede about the same time in England) there were monks writing vigorous criticisms of the church leadership complaining that wealthy aristocrats and monarchs were buying positions as bishops and cardinals in the church for the purpose of gaining control over church lands and enslaving the serfs that were employed in working the land. The church policy, of keep them ignorant, is as much a policy of the state as the idea of keeping them poor. The church just let itself become a tool of the state. And one can see a more subtle approach to 'keep them ignorant' in public education systems in north America and south Asia even now. These school systems are more focussed on indoctrinating kids in the political ideology of the elite rather than in rigorous, objective study of history, natural science, and economics. I couldn't tell you how many alleged honour students I have encountered that I would dismiss as functionally illiterate. But they say all the right things to please the local and regional politicians. It is important to make a distinction, though, between official church practices of the mega-institution and the 'church' as represented by people of faith, lest the latter be slandered unjustly by the crimes of the former.

...

It did not take the Chinese authorities long to figure out what went awry, and understood that a major part of the wealth of China was agricultural, and there was no wealth to distribute if the farmers did not work their fields as usual. The quickly ensured that all the farming communities in China learned that so that that mistake would not be repeated. Alas, like everyone I have met that have transformed the virtue of sharing into a political ideology (or equally accurate idiocy), they failed to take into account human nature. I guess survival of the fittest will win, again than...

...

In China, that idea of willingness to share was soon transformed into compulsion to share, and the very friend who loves China and survived the famine that followed the revolution, was one of countless young people who were forced into slavery on government run farms. Of course, the government didn't call it slavery; they called it re-education. The end result was the same, of course, in which the people so enslaved had no choice but to obey, and slave their lives away, receiving only scarcely sufficient food to survive and woefully inadequate shelter, while the communist leaders lived lives of luxury.

Because they were just liars who wanted to stay in power, like all who tasted power, and got corrupted by it.. Preference for evil

...

I can not understand his affection for a county that has treated him so shamefully. The folk in the Ukraine ought to be relatively wealthy since the farmland there is incredibly fertile. But, many decades ago, when my parents were young, while their crops didn't fail, their Russian masters forced them to share; and how many died as a result? Ironically, both Russia and China are doing well now, and will be major economic powers for at least the first half of this century precisely because they have adapted to transform themselves into having a form of the capitalism that you apparently despise.

Despise is a great word. I merely think a fusion of the best parts of both would be the solution...

...

One other cause of poverty worth mentioning, in part because it will be causing major problems of the coming century, is stupidity combined with ignorance combined with lust for power by Muslim religious leaders.

Indeed: the three enemies of all men: Ignorance, Slowness of the mind, and Preference for evil.

...

These leaders know that if you keep people ignorant, knowing only what you tell them, you can persuade them to do almost anything.

Like the catholic church has done for ages...

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That is why, across north Africa, through the middle east and into south western Asia, you have constant warfare instigated by these leaders against anyone who believes differently: in the Sudan, and across north Africa, Arab Muslims slaughtering black animist and Christian neighbors for many generations now, and throughout the middle east, Shia and Sunni clerics ranting, instigating violence, against each other as well as the West and Israel. You have Turkey and Iran waging a proxy war in Syria as a result. All that warfare is guaranteed to keep the entire Muslim world in poverty; and the rest of the world is at risk if they let themselves be drawn into it. War is bad for most businesses, and poverty is an inevitable result.

There are no winners in a war, only loosers. Gain is money, for arms dealers.

...

It is important to note, though, that so-called religious wars have almost nothing to do with religion (except possibly Islam - in which the Quran has no redeeming content - trust me, I have read it cover to cover) and everything to do with political leaders exploiting general levels of ignorance among the masses and manipulating the ignorant into doing what they would otherwise not do.

All about power, and staying in power.

...

I am sure the software developers at Microsoft and Intel and IBM and Oracle, and all the other commercial software houses are much like me; we're just people who happen to develop software for a living. Some of us do it well, and some not so well, but that is beside the point. We're just people trying to earn a living. And you have the temerity to accuse us of contributing to global poverty because we want to be

Yes, but remembering that that was the institution as controlled by politicians, not those actually trying to practice that faith. All too often, I have seen folk (especially western atheists) attack the latter, and the faith itself, because of the deeds of the politicians who manipulated the institution. paid for

our work? Absolutely not, that would be ridiculous.

OK. I am glad we got that clarified.

...

I don't know which is more obscene: the idea that I ought to work for free because I happen to develop software, so you can have it without paying for it, or that I am guilty of impoverishing the world because I want to be paid for my work; and this in spite of the ample evidence visible to anyone with eyes to see the world as it is that there are many causes of poverty.

I am glad this unguarded 'slip of the keyboard' brought you back into your conviction.

...

Might I suggest, to you, and any other open source fanatic,

I hope you will not see me as any other open source fanatic, this is absolutely not the case...

OK.

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that it is more constructive to adhere to another philosophical idea, to be found in the writings of ancient Greek and Roman authors, as well as the Bible and some eastern religious, philosophical texts, variously known as meekness or the way of the middle? The idea we shouldn't share is not good, but I am not aware of any great examples of widespread evil that has happened because that idea was abused. That we should share is a good idea, but great evils have happened because some idiot took the idea and transformed it first into a political idea (and not taking human nature into account, specifically the tendency to be lazy, cause catastrophic famine and death) and then into a political weapon (as Russia did against the Ukraine). The middle is best, in which sharing is regarded as a virtue, widely practiced, but not imposed. Similarly, capital, viewed as merely a device of instrumental value in the support of trade, can result in great wealth, as most western countries show, even in these 'interesting times', but that other human attribute, greed, or the love of money, has caused all kinds of evil when left unchecked. The resulting position, with regard to software, is that there is a place for both open source software and closed source software, and neither has an ethical advantage over the other.

Your welformed opinion, based on reading the right stuff, 'clean' thinking and experience, for which i am glad you shared it with me/us (shared freely, without charging.. ;-), must have cost you quite some time, as it took me to read and reply to it. As you might have noticed, i have put remarks while reading your utmost interesting post, to which you are free to respond, if you feel the need for it... As yourself, i am quite aware of all of this.

Yes, I did. The experience involved took eons to accumulate. ;-) I am so old I can remember fighting off T.Rex so I could enjoy my Bronto-burgers, which tasted remarkably like chicken. ;-) or so it seems (a feeling confirmed by my feet and knees, BTW). I can write this in safety as it is certain my sisters won't see it. if they did, they'd retort that there isn't that much difference between my age and theirs, and they don't remember this. And then they'd smack me when I reply that they needn't worry as that just means their sometimers has progressed to alltimers (Alzheimer's), and that I'd make sure they got appropriate care in a residential facility whenever they're ready. And attempt at humour that would just result in sibling abuse. ;-)

I buy apps directly from swdevs, when i think they are useful to me, like ghislers total commander, because he did a very good job. The license gives me a lot of advantages: i can talk to the guy, and it lets me feel a lot better.

A feeling i total lack with windows, which i use also.

In the end it only comes down to what we did with our lives, and how we did it. There is absolutely no sense in life, as only the sense we give it, or,

assassins say: 'Nothing is true, and everything is permitted'. A statement that implies that the world is an illusion, and we are free men, but i am aware of (many) other explanations of this phrase... that can shed

M$ has a mixed track record. Windows 3.0 was interesting, and I had it, but rarely used it, preferring the command line to run the programs I wrote (and I admit doing things with the graphics hardware at the time that would be disastrous now with any modern OS - but which were necessary to make usable educational software, which I was doing at the time to put myself through graduate school). Windows 95 98 and ME were basically viruses that took over your machine and prevented you from either getting much done or preserving the little you did get done. NT was usable, but rather poor relative to OS/2. The problem with the latter was the marketing. If IBM got that right, we'd all be using it rather than Linux or Windows. Windows 2000, XP and now Windows 7 were/are quite good, with Windows 7 being the best of the lot. I do not see Windows 7 being better or worse than the current Linux distributions; only a little different. The one edge I see it having is that I always know exactly where it is putting stuff, but in Linux, once I figure out where Ubuntu has put software I just installed, and I look on Suse Linux having just installed the same software on it, and I look in the same place, it isn't there. The local Linux folk here that I talk to tell me that even they have problems finding the software and their working directories some times as they see little consistency between distributions as to where things ought to go. It gets quite confusing sometimes. like the the

world in darkness...

...

Cheers

Ted

Don't loose sense of humor,

Kind Regards,

Rob.

Thanks for clarifying this. It is good that there is so much upon which we're agreed. :-) But for now, I have to get something to eat and start my real work for the day. Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [06-18-12 10:04]:

Ted Byers said the following on 06/18/2012 09:34 AM:

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...

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Maybe I am extra grumpy because it is insanely hot here, over 27 degrees Celsius (for our 'merkin cousins, that's over 80 degrees Fahrenheit ;-), [...]

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I am still grumpy, though, because it is still insanely hot here.

No its not. Anything under 30 degrees Celsius north of the Tropic of Cancer is just "summer in the northern hemisphere". And we get proper winters too, not like the poor people who live between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn around the equator. "Insanely hot" year in and out for them.

lets face it, anything under 35 degrees Celsius you can still cool off by radiation, you don't _need_ to sweat! :-)

Generated and retained body heat from keyboard exertion? :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Roger Oberholtzer [mailto:roger@opq.se] Sent: June-18-12 10:34 AM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] so massively off topic that you should just delete this thread [off-topic]

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 10:15 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [06-18-12 10:04]:

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Ted Byers said the following on 06/18/2012 09:34 AM:

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...

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> Maybe I am extra grumpy because it is insanely hot here, over 27 degrees Celsius (for our 'merkin cousins, that's over 80 degrees Fahrenheit ;-), [...]

...

I am still grumpy, though, because it is still insanely hot here.

No its not. Anything under 30 degrees Celsius north of the Tropic of Cancer is just "summer in the northern hemisphere". And we get proper winters too, not like the poor people who live between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn around the equator. "Insanely hot" year in and out for them.

lets face it, anything under 35 degrees Celsius you can still cool off by radiation, you don't _need_ to sweat! :-)

And here I sit in a sh*t Swedish 'summer' that is just cold and rain. It was actually 3 degrees C when the Stockholm Marathon started a week or so ago. Yesterday I sat indoors contemplating starting up the fireplace. And it has been like this the whole season. I want to complain about the heat. I'm jealous...

Hey Roger, do you want to trade places? ;-) I'd do so in a heartbeat if I could afford it. ;-) But it is as much one of perception and acclimatization as it is ecophysiology and physics. When I worked in Singapore, just a few kilometers from the equator, it almost never got above 25, or below 20, and there was usually a cooling afternoon rain. Much better than you average summer in Toronto. And while there, I never heard anyone complain of the heat or dampness as it was warm and damp all the time. Everyone was used to it, or acclimatized to it. But, when I worked in the Punjab, the first month I was there, it averaged 45 degrees Celsius, and then the temperatures moderated to an average of 35 degrees, and everyone, including my Canadian colleagues, remarked at how cool it became, and then laughed when we saw the thermometer and considered that our colleagues back home would consider us insane for referring to 35 degrees as cool. And while there, I met Indians who lived in such hot climates, they regarded anything below 30 degrees as cold and would start dressing warm, with whatever coats they could afford, once temperatures dropped below 35: but that is a rather local phenomenon and depended on what tribal group you happen to meet. Your/our perception of heat depends as much on what you're used to in the past few weeks as it does on physics and ecophysiology. It takes weeks, and sometimes months, to adapt to a new thermal regime, and one really does suffer when the temperatures are volatile as they have been here for several months, with wild swings between unseasonably hot to unseasonably cool in less than a week. Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball wrote:

Anton Aylward schreef:

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Per Jessen said the following on 06/16/2012 09:54 AM:

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Anton Aylward wrote:

Perhaps this http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html#moniker partially answers a question previously asked.

Looks impressive, but I am not as deep in this to understand, or use it myself.. I use SW, not create or code it, neither will i pretend that i do, or look at myself less, for not being able to do it. Everybody his/her thing no?

I prefer Linux above M$ for several reasons. But many things are easier for most ppl, because almost everybody uses it. Manufacturers depend on it, and closed source means you can charge for it.

There's no problem charging for an open source product either. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Per Jessen said the following on 06/16/2012 09:54 AM:

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Anton Aylward wrote:

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In fact procmail is a much better filtering tool than the filters built into *any* email reader/gui and could probably address your issues to do with putting messages in the right directories. I use it to do a level of spam filtering that spamassassin can't manage.

Anton, I'm curious - what extra filtering do you do with procmail that spamassassin can't do for you?

Procmail can do things that spamassassin can't. Rewriting and inserting headers is just one of them. There are many procmail recipes documented on the 'Net that you can review.

Sure, but I am really only interested in the _filtering_ - I do a lot of filtering with SA, and I was wondering if you had some good ideas to extend my ruleset/arsenal. Just in case we might not agree on the meaning of "filtering", for me, it is to "analyze and add results the email header". Any subsequent rerouting, deleting, storing in folders is for the MTA and sieve or procmail to do.

- assign mailing lists & others to appropriate folders spamassassin doesn't do that and the GUI is a bit simplistic compared to what procmail can do.

I didn't even know SA had a GUI :-)

How many of the things here http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html can you do with spamassassin?

I didn't read all of them, but in my experience, anything to do with filtering can be done with spamassassin. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Sure, but I am really only interested in the _filtering_ - I do a lot of filtering with SA, and I was wondering if you had some good ideas to extend my ruleset/arsenal.

In german: http://www.heise.de/ix/NiX-Spam-filtert-auf-dem-Mailserver-476624.html ftp://ftp.ix.de/pub/ix/ix_listings/2003/11/

HTH, -dnh

Thanks, already in use here :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 06/16/2012 10:14 AM:

The seamonkey mailclient does not seem to support extensions, or addons, as far as i discovered in a day.

That must be a disappointment. Given that other do, what is it about seamonkey that makes it preferable to using MUAs that do support them? I must admit this is a bit of a hypothetical for me. I use fetchmail+procmail+spamassassin to "bring in the mail" from all the mailboxes I use. Fetchmail is very capable. So I have a local mail store. I can read what's in that mail store using any mail reader I choose I can read it with the old text-mode tools or with a GUI using IMAP and Dovecot and because I also have a web-server running I can read it with web based tools. I find Thunderbird the easiest and most convenient because of all those add-ons and plug ins, but if there's ever a problem or anomaly I can use one of the other methods of reading mail. I don't care for the compromises that seem to result from 'all-in-one' tools. -- Superstitions typically involve seeing order where in fact there is none, and denial amounts to rejecting evidence of regularities, sometimes even ones that are staring us in the face. --Murray Gell-Mann (Quark and the Jaguar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 06/16/2012 11:10 AM:

[...] Nothing specific. I am using several lt's or pc's. The one i wanted to use sm for is an eeepc: it is compact and uses little resources. It also shares code, so i heard, which seems to make it faster.

Faster than what? The whole Linux model relies on shared libraries. How much do firefox and thunderbird share? I'm sure there's a way to find out, looking at the loaded libraries when both are running. But the real speedup of the eeepc is the SSD. Oh, and memory. Add all the memory you can! Ah right. run ldd on /lib/firefox/firefox and /lib/firefox/components/*.so and on /lib/thunderbird/thunderbird-bin and /lib/thunderbird/*.so and on /lib/thunderbird/*.so and see how much the thunderbird side and the firefox side have in common. I seem to recall that both use the same rendering engine. I suspect both use the same 'hooks' mechanism for add-on as some add-on seem to be able to be shared.

...

I don't care for the compromises that seem to result from 'all-in-one' tools.

Me neither. If the tools do what i want, or expect them to do, i am ok with them. But when you checkout new apps, you'll have use them to know what they're capable of, and what not.

True but reading this and other lists its clear that often you don't know what they are capable of until you've used them for a while and stretched their limits. For example we had a thread here recently with someone who didn't, at first, see how to use Thunderbird to read USENET. -- Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. - Og Mandino -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball wrote:

The seamonkey mailclient does not seem to support extensions, or addons, as far as i discovered in a day. Therefore i ask ppl who already use this client longer, if they know if there is a script available, that adds the button/shortcut. Tha's all.

???? I use both Lightning calendar and gContactSync in Seamonkey mail and Thunderbird. I have the address books and calendar synced, along with URLs etc in Seamonkey & Firefox browsers, using Mozilla sync. My mail is always synced, as I use IMAP. It all works well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Oddball wrote:

The seamonkey mailclient does not seem to support extensions, or addons, as far as i discovered in a day.

Just use Tools -> Add-on manager as with the browser. TB extension may or may not work. e.g. Mnenhy works. HTH, -dnh -- 'using Outlook is like hanging a sign on your back that reads "PLEASE MESS WITH MY COMPUTER."' --Scott Rosenberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball schreef:

David Haller schreef:

...

Hello,

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Oddball wrote:

...

The seamonkey mailclient does not seem to support extensions, or addons, as far as i discovered in a day. Just use Tools -> Add-on manager as with the browser. TB extension may or may not work. e.g. Mnenhy works.

HTH, -dnh

Thanks! Usefull tip...

'Reply to list only' not an available option. Answering your post with ctrl+shift+r marks only opensuse: how convenient... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org